Western politicians should stop pretending that extremism and terrorism have nothing to do with Islam. There is a clear relationship between fundamentalism, terrorism, and the basic assumptions of Islamic orthodoxy. So long as we lack consensus regarding this matter, we cannot gain victory over fundamentalist violence within Islam.
This is a vitally important statement by Yahya Cholil Staquf, general secretary of the Nahdlatul Ulama in Indonesia. Nahdlatul Ulema, “with about 50 million members, is the country’s biggest Muslim organization.”
Judging from Staquf’s factual statement, it is clear that not all Muslims ascribe to a victimology narrative and the “Islamophobia” canard that generally accompanies it. Staquf states the obvious, which apparently is not that obvious to many Westerners.
Staquf also states:
The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to “Islamophobia.” Or do people want to accuse me — an Islamic scholar — of being an Islamophobe too?
When will the West wake up? The “Islamophobia” subterfuge is nothing but an Organization of Islamic Cooperation ploy to subjugate the woefully naive of this world. Do they actually believe that everyone who smiles at them is their “friend,” as committed as they are to “diversity”?
Acceptance, tolerance and goodwill are honorable concepts, but they are being hijacked by the malignant agendas of jihadists (including the stealth Muslim Brotherhood variety).
“In Interview, Top Indonesian Muslim Scholar Says Stop Pretending That Orthodox Islam and Violence Aren’t Linked”, by Marco Stahlhut, Time, September 7, 2017:
Indonesia, the world’s biggest Muslim-majority country, has a constitution that recognizes other major religions, and practices a syncretic form of Islam that draws on not just the faith’s tenets but local spiritual and cultural traditions. As a result, the nation has long been a voice of, and for, moderation in the Islamic world.
Yet Indonesia is not without its radical elements. Though most are on the fringe, they can add up to a significant number given Indonesia’s 260-million population. In the early 2000s, the country was terrorized by Jemaah Islamiyah (JI), a homegrown extremist organization allied with al-Qaeda. JI’s deadliest attack was the 2002 Bali bombing that killed 202 people. While JI has been neutralized, ISIS has claimed responsibility for recent, smaller terrorist incidents in the country and has inspired some Indonesians to fight in Syria — Indonesians who could pose a threat when they return home. The country has also seen the rise of hate groups that preach intolerance and violence against local religious and ethnic minorities, which include Shia and Ahmadiya Muslims.
Among Indonesia’s most influential Islamic leaders is Yahya Cholil Staquf, 51,advocates a modern, moderate Islam. He is general secretary of the Nahdlatul Ulama, which, with about 50 million members, is the country’s biggest Muslim organization. Yahya. This interview, notable for Yahya’s candor, was first published on Aug. 19 in German in Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Here are excerpts translated from the original Bahasa Indonesia into English.
Many Western politicians and intellectuals say that Islamist terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. What is your view?
Western politicians should stop pretending that extremism and terrorism have nothing to do with Islam. There is a clear relationship between fundamentalism, terrorism, and the basic assumptions of Islamic orthodoxy. So long as we lack consensus regarding this matter, we cannot gain victory over fundamentalist violence within Islam.
Radical Islamic movements are nothing new. They’ve appeared again and again throughout our own history in Indonesia. The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to “Islamophobia.” Or do people want to accuse me — an Islamic scholar — of being an Islamophobe too?
What basic assumptions within traditional Islam are problematic?
The relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims, the relationship of Muslims with the state, and Muslims’ relationship to the prevailing legal system wherever they live … Within the classical tradition, the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is assumed to be one of segregation and enmity.
Perhaps there were reasons for this during the Middle Ages, when the tenets of Islamic orthodoxy were established, but in today’s world such a doctrine is unreasonable. To the extent that Muslims adhere to this view of Islam, it renders them incapable of living harmoniously and peacefully within the multi-cultural, multi-religious societies of the 21st century.
A Western politician would likely be accused of racism for saying what you just said.
I’m not saying that Islam is the only factor causing Muslim minorities in the West to lead a segregated existence, often isolated from society as a whole. There may be other factors on the part of the host nations, such as racism, which exists everywhere in the world. But traditional Islam — which fosters an attitude of segregation and enmity toward non-Muslims — is an important factor.
And Muslims and the state?
Within the Islamic tradition, the state is a single, universal entity that unites all Muslims under the rule of one man who leads them in opposition to, and conflict with, the non-Muslim world.
So the call by radicals to establish a caliphate, including by ISIS, is not un-Islamic?
No, it is not. [ISIS’s] goal of establishing a global caliphate stands squarely within the orthodox Islamic tradition. But we live in a world of nation-states. Any attempt to create a unified Islamic state in the 21st century can only lead to chaos and violence … Many Muslims assume there is an established and immutable set of Islamic laws, which are often described as shariah. This assumption is in line with Islamic tradition, but it of course leads to serious conflict with the legal system that exists in secular nation-states.
Any [fundamentalist] view of Islam positing the traditional norms of Islamic jurisprudence as absolute [should] be rejected out of hand as false. State laws [should] have precedence.
Generations ago, we achieved a de facto consensus in Indonesia that Islamic teachings must be contextualized to reflect the ever-changing circumstances of time and place. The majority of Indonesian Muslims were — and I think still are — of the opinion that the various assumptions embedded within Islamic tradition must be viewed within the historical, political and social context of their emergence in the Middle Ages [in the Middle East] and not as absolute injunctions that must dictate Muslims’ behavior in the present … Which ideological opinions are “correct” is not determined solely by reflection and debate. These are struggles [about who and what is recognized as religiously authoritative]. Political elites in Indonesia routinely employ Islam as a weapon to achieve their worldly objectives.
Is it so elsewhere too?
Too many Muslims view civilization, and the peaceful co-existence of people of different faiths, as something they must combat. Many Europeans can sense this attitude among Muslims.
There’s a growing dissatisfaction in the West with respect to Muslim minorities, a growing fear of Islam. In this sense, some Western friends of mine are “Islamophobic.” They’re afraid of Islam. To be honest, I understand their fear … The West cannot force Muslims to adopt a moderate interpretation of Islam. But Western politicians should stop telling us that fundamentalism and violence have nothing to do with traditional Islam. That is simply wrong.
They don’t want to foster division in their societies between Muslims and non-Muslims, nor contribute to intolerance against Muslims.
I share this desire — that’s a primary reason I’m speaking so frankly. But the approach you describe won’t work. If you refuse to acknowledge the existence of a problem, you can’t begin to solve it. One must identify the problem and explicitly state who and what are responsible for it.
Who and what are responsible?
Over the past 50 years, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states have spent massively to promote their ultra-conservative version of Islam worldwide. After allowing this to go unchallenged for so many decades, the West must finally exert decisive pressure upon the Saudis to cease this behavior … I admire Western, especially European, politicians. Their thoughts are so wonderfully humanitarian. But we live in a time when you have to think and act realistically.
The last time I was in Brussels I witnessed some Arab, perhaps North African, youth insult and harass a group of policemen. My Belgian friends remarked that such behavior has become an almost everyday occurrence in their country. Why do you allow such behavior? What kind if impression does that make? Europe, and Germany in particular, are accepting massive numbers of refugees. Don’t misunderstand me: of course you cannot close your eyes to those in need. But the fact remains that you’re taking in millions of refugees about whom you know virtually nothing, except that they come from extremely problematic regions of the world……
jewdog says
Nice interview, Robert. You look a little different, though.
I guess this guy would cause a riot if he tried to speak on a college campus, would be barred from Britain and McMaster wouldn’t like him.
manat bint allaha says
and they would accuse him of being racist and islamophobic.
gee, i’d pay to see that..
BC says
Can someone please bring this to the attention of our so called Western leaders who feel they must be so PC and multiculturalist that even if they know they truth they are terrified of uttering it.
Emilie Green says
“Staquf states the obvious, which apparently is not that obvious to many Westerners.”
Actually I would contend that it is in fact obvious to most in the West, including most of its so-called leaders. They prefer however not to acknowledge it because that would require an addressing of the problem. Admitting that we have this cancer among us, a growing cancer that is huge is just too much to comprehend. Imagine, having to admit that the members of this Islam religion do in fact want the rest of the world to convert to their religion, with all its loony and dangerous practices, and are willing to do all that is necessary to see that that comes about. True enough, not every single one of them will do the killing necessary to force the result, but there are plenty of them who will be willing. And those who do, will largely agree with those doing the killing.
What leader in the West would ever want to acknowledge that? Failing to acknowledge will not avoid the problem. All that does is push the inevitable into an frightening but certain future. Islam will continue its behavior.
Guy Forester says
I agree, but I think there are two very clear reasons why the leaders of the west refuse to confront this Islamic invasion and attack for what it truly is:
1. By asserting that these attacks are done by an individual, criminal, lone wolf, self-radicalized or mentally ill person, the politicians do not need to identify and confront the state sponsors of these attacks and invasions.
2. OPEC oil countries have a lot of western contracts and expats living there, as well as many of our Asian trading partners and allies. No one wants to upset this financial applecart.
I know I sound like a broken record, but what can I say? I have been there and have been watching this disaster unfold for a long time.
PATRICIA FRANCES KOENIG says
Muslim countries should be helping other Muslims…. but they are not…because Islam is not a charitable “religion.” A “moderate” Islam is a lax Islam. So this scholar’s idea will never work. Many people like to take their religion seriously…whatever that religion is. So Islam, taken seriously, is violent, cruel, perverted, and dishonest.
balam says
Absolutely TRUE!!!!
LeftisruiningCanada says
Yep, the truth plain and simple.
The moderates will be taken out right along with the kufar
LR says
“Yep, the truth plain and simple.
The moderates will be taken out right along with the kufar.”
So, you know the future?
Gotta’, love that ‘can do’ attitude of yours.
Glad you weren’t around advising the Revolutionaries, and Washington on their lousy odds.
I like this guy, because he is right. If ‘The West’ would stop bs’ing itself in regards to Islam, as well as other things, we will do fine.
Islam is not going to disappear off the planet. The West needs to support leaders such as Staquf.
Right now, we are often our own worst enemy.
Frank Riley says
For the first time ever I noticed the presence of many Muslims helping out at the Grenfell Tower disaster in London. Undoubtedly this was because the great majority of the victims there were co-religionists, apparently recent migrants. So it’s not charity across the board. One wonders whether there’s any Koranic prescrilption against helping the infidels?
old white guy says
islam is the reason for the violence.
mortimer says
Henri Boulad, SJ, wrote that jihad is integral to Islam:
“Jihad is not a fringe part of Islam or an appendage. It constitutes a main obligation for a believer. Some wish to interpret this term in a reductionist manner, as if jihad were merely inner, spiritual warfare, a battle against one’s passions and instincts.
But no, the texts are clear: it is well-and-truly a fight with the sword and so it’s not by accident that Saudi Arabia or well-known Islamist groups present a sword on their crests.
In Islam, we see the ideas of force and of power. (cf. Koran 2.216 – 217; 3.157 -158; 3.169; 8.17; 8.39; 8.41; 8.67; 8.69; 9.5; 9.29; 9.41; 9.111; 9.123; 47.35; 59.)
Islam is imposed by force and generally has only yielded to force.
It’s a fact: historically, Islam was spread by coercion and by violence.
Islam has the ambition and the pretension of converting all of humanity.
The Muslim is inwardly certain he is right and possesses the truth. As a consequence, this conviction produces the cold determination that one day he will succeed in conquering the whole world against all odds. Nothing can stop it. It will take the time it takes, but he knows he will get there.”
LeftisruiningCanada says
Agree with this. Like a Communist without his dialectic. And equally willing to slaughter for the prize.
balam says
ISLAMIST TERRORISM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM,JUST AS PORK HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PIG.
manat bint allaha says
we shouldn’t speak evil of muslims, for this will push them to become terrorists, and as we all know, islam has nothing to do with terrorism.
Guy Forester says
Remember, all they really need is a job, a hug, a welfare check, four wives on the dole with four kids each on the dole. They need to feel included, so invite them over for a spot of tea and hope that you are not the eid sacrifice.
Kesselman says
Has the top scholar consulted his peers? By the way, the far easterners are more intelligent than their Arab and Iranian co-religionists. That could be the explanation for his open-mouthed statements.
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
Yes, let’s stop pretending. Pu-leeze. We’ve been pretending since 1848 that socialism works. But the pretense about Islam seems to have started a bit later, maybe after Kemal Ataturk who, ironically, did not pretend. He put soldiers in mosques on Friday cuz he knew.
LeftisruiningCanada says
+1
mortimer says
Macchiaveli wrote, “It is more convenient to go straight to the effectual truth of a matter than to the imagination of it.”
Western politicians go to their imagination of Islam or whatever is the popular imagination of it. Neither the people nor the politicians have read the Islamic sources and yet, preposterously, assume themselves to be experts on Islam based on the taqiyya-driven ‘nice Muslim’ they met how managed to hoodwink them completely about the meaning, motives and methods of jihad…the ‘holy fighting’ and hatred directed against the dirty disbelieving KUFAAR.
Western politicians have adopted the very SOOTHING, WHITEWASHED version of Islam that appeals to the POPULAR IMAGINATION. They are manipulative and deceitful.
Even a child can see that jihad is warfare and the emperor has no clothes on.
rubiconcrest says
The Time magazine article has a photo of the some of the ’50 million, the “militant moderates” from the Nahdlatul Ulama’ are dedicated to …. combating conservative Islamic organizations, which have recently become a more vocal force in Indonesian politics and culture.’ The photo shows a 3 day military type training exercise. This is what Indonesian’s need to ‘combat’ the ‘conservative Islamic organizations’ in their own country. They have to defend themselves from peaceful, tolerant Islam. Why is this necessary McMaster?
Guy Forester says
Since the pen is mightier than the sword we are told, why the training? Shouldn’t they be on a word processor? I have also been told the following:
1. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I think we need to add knives, bombs, and hijacked airplanes to the sticks and stones.
2. Actions speak louder than words. Do you think Lee Rigby might agree with that?
3. Douglas MacArthur — ‘Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons.’
VRWC member77 says
“If you refuse to acknowledge the existence of a problem, you can’t begin to solve it. One must identify the problem and explicitly state who and what are responsible for it.”
Hmmm……yes Yahya, you are 100% correct on that point.
BUT
How do you reform an ideology that models itself around a vile figure such as muhammud?…..HOW?? How do you reconcile Sahih hadith that states he married a 6 or 7 year old child? How do reconcile Surah 33:21 that states muhammud is the perfect model of behavior. This is as foundational as it gets.
Hitler like muhammed is probably one of the most recognizable names in the annals of history. Hitler like muhammed (if he existed) accomplished many diabolical feats. And there is this point: Hitler may have been a genocidal murderer and a creep who pursued incest relations with his niece but in common everyday life within his inner circle, he was a prudish prig. There are many Sahih hadith that speak of muhammud in a favorable light. Do these “favorable writings” counter the other writings describing and detailing his genocidal, pedophilic, perverted, murderous, sex driven, incestuous, bandit-looting tendencies? If so, then I suppose Islam can be reformed?
I just think a foul smelling cancerous mass cannot be polished. It must be destroyed and discarded.
VRWC member77 says
I left out racism…..muhammad was a RACIST <————-FACT
kuriakose says
“Perhaps there were reasons for this during the Middle Ages, when the tenets of Islamic orthodoxy were established, but in today’s world such a doctrine is unreasonable”
Perhaps? I wonder. Methinks if this gentleman is perfectly honest, he should get out of Islam. Why cling on to something that is so patently wicked and fraudulent? Why is it so easy to forget all the millions of people slaughtered, raped, carried off into slavery and worse, civilisations destroyed and degraded?
Islam should be recognised for the vile creed it is and eradicated.
manat bint allaha says
time is irrelevant for islam’s mission.
muslims see it as eternal,as long as there’s land not subject to the arab deity allah. islam’s mission does not exist in a specific time frame or a geographical location.
the early islamic conquests can, and must, be repeated until all under the sun is muslim.
manat bint allaha says
..and you are right about the solution. one does not negociate with cancer, let alone invite it into one’s body.
Jayell says
Has this character applied for a UK visa yet? I presume he’s going to be banned if that hasn’t already happened, since he seems to be saying basically the same thing as Mr. Spencer.
Jaladhi says
Islam is nothing but terrorism to terrorize non-Muslims. Quran clearly says that and all Muslims have that aim in their life. – to terrorize non-Muslims!
LR says
“Islam is nothing but terrorism to terrorize non-Muslims. Quran clearly says that and all Muslims have that aim in their life. – to terrorize non-Muslims.”
No, many Muslims do not wish to terrorize.
There is such a split in the ‘conversation’ in the west.
People will write the above, and others in the media will still declare Islam, as a ‘religion of peace’.
Richard says
“Acceptance, tolerance and goodwill are honorable concepts, but they are being hijacked by the malignant agendas of jihadists…”
Hijacked is the wrong word. The appropriate term is “weaponized”.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Exactly, good choice of word.
Guy Forester says
No, these concepts are rejected by the ulama and most traditional sunni and shia clerics as not in harmony with the teachings based upon the quran and the hadiths.
LR says
So then, ‘The West’ better start ‘fighting’ harder and support those who defy the ‘traditionalists’.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“Their thoughts are so wonderfully humanitarian. But we live in a time when you have to think and act realistically.”
Translation: European politicians peddle a fine sounding load of Communistic Utopianism, but this fantasy is endangering us all and needs to be done away with.
Tom says
“Their thoughts are so wonderfully humanitarian. But we live in a time when you have to think and act realistically.”
This one statement sums it up completely.
LR says
“This one statement sums it up completely.”
Right, from his lips to our political leaders ears.
John A. Marre says
When a Muslim says that Islam is violence it’s OK. When Robert Spencer says it he’s banned from Britain and called “islamophobe.”
Norger says
So true. Robert correctly stated that Islam mandates warfare against unbelievers for the purpose of imposing a societal model that is absolutely incompatible with Western civilization. For that, he was banned from the U.K. (And the fact that he was banned from the U.K. is often cited by Robert’s critics as “proof” that he is a bigoted extremist). This type of reflexive shutting down of open and honest examination of Islamic orthodoxy is exactly what this scholar was talking about when he said that Western politicians need to stop pretending that violence and extremism have nothing to do with Islam. Winston Churchill would be banned from the U.K. today.
LR says
Maybe he could send the various interviews of Imams that don’t support Jihad, and do like the more modern moderate life, to the political leaders.
Hey May…Would that work?
dennis says
i enjoyed the interview and praise Mr. Yahya for his truthfulness. it is a dangerous position for him to take and i hope that he is not killed. i would like to communicate with him. does he have a website. i have been to Indonesia and now understand how those Muslims were so hospitable and friendly. i ate in several Muslim homes and the educated ones were definitely pro western, pro peace, tolerant and kind.
Guy Forester says
I agree. I hope this guy has a good security detail, has his car checked prior to getting into it, and keeps his eyes and ears open. The most likely threat he faces is a security team member that is a stealth assassin.
James says
He is on Facebook and Twitter. The interview can be found here:
http://time.com/4930742/islam-terrorism-islamophobia-violence/
And his surname is Staquf, rather than Stafuq. He does not seem to have an English-language website.
Guy Forester says
Per the interview: “Too many Muslims view civilization, and the peaceful co-existence of people of different faiths, as something they must combat. Many Europeans can sense this attitude among Muslims.”
Do you think Lee Rigby would agree with that, if he was still alive?
This scholar appears to be honest and truthful, I hope he is. Nothing will solve these problems short of nuking certain centers of islam unless muslims change things themselves. Others have pointed out that most muslims are probably wedding, funeral, and holiday observers, not die hard orthodox. However, the violence against non-muslims in so many countries, including Indonesia, tells us how quickly that can change.
Yahya also points out that Indonesia has dealt with radicals before. Yes, like letting Banda Aceh follow sharia law and become autonomous. Confiscating Amahdi mosques, stopping the building or rebuilding of churches. Doing nothing when Christians are murdered, and imposing Islam on East Timor and what is now Irian Jaya. KSA, Turkey, and probably most other Islamic countries have at some point crushed “radical” muslim movements in their countries as well. Not so much for the sake of a pure, peaceful, tolerant, and noble religion as to maintain political power.
John Forbes says
you do not want to send this to the WESTERN LEADERS ! They have all SWORN on KORANS that ISLAM is a RELIGION of PEACE & VIOLENCE has nothing to do with ISLAM !
There will be TEARS & PEOPLE CRYING in HALLWAYS at being caught with YET another BIG LIE !!
Realistically though it needs to be sent to every WESTERN MEDIA OUTLET, Every Western Parliament & Every Parliamentarian or Congressman & advertised as having been done sent !
PARTICULARLY to the BBC ,ABC,CBC ,CNN ,& ANDY BURNHAM & of course TERESA MAY & AMBER RUDD & Good old JEREMY CORBYN & GEORGE GALLOWAY & MUSLIM JUSTIN TRUDEAU , THE ELITE OF SCANDINAVIA & MANY MORE ( IN CASES WHERE I MAY HAVE MISSED AN UTTER JACK ASS OR TWO)
ALL will declare a FATWA on the GUY ! HOW DARE HE TELL THE TRUTH
Gordon Miller says
Whose pretending? And forget the “orthodox” part and let’s just stick with “Islam.”………. Now, that’s much better.
Dacritic says
And why is he still a Muslim? Or does he think Islam can be “reformed”? Quran 5:3 says no.
Matthieu Baudin says
“…Within the classical tradition, the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is assumed to be one of segregation and enmity. Perhaps there were reasons for this during the Middle Ages, when the tenets of Islamic orthodoxy were established, but in today’s world such a doctrine is unreasonable. To the extent that Muslims adhere to this view of Islam, it renders them incapable of living harmoniously and peacefully within the multi-cultural, multi-religious societies of the 21st century…”
If Yahya Cholil Staquf can talk plainly and display this type of courage with local Jihadis breathing down his neck then it’s reasonable for us to expect this openness in dialogue to be matched by our political and community leaders residing in non Muslim countries.