Christians remain the safe target for agenda-driven, the cowardly, the appeasers and the grossly insensitive. Christians are routinely being slaughtered in Islamic states for being Christian, but the article below preaches that “Christians don’t have a monopoly on Jesus.”
It is no secret — or should be no secret — that the Muslim Jesus (Isa) is not equivalent to the Christian view of Jesus. This does not mean that Christians reject the Muslim right to view Jesus as merely a prophet, but to attempt to sidestep the problem of Islamic supremacism and jihad by making it look as though Christians are bigoted is offensive.
Also fundamental was that Jesus was from the House of David, a Jew, and this means that Jesus will not be particularly happy with the organized and broad jihadist state ambition to obliterate the Jewish state. But none of this matters to navel-gazers.
The problem is not, and has never been those Muslims who wish to live peacefully with everyone, accept pluralism and renounce sharia and its notions of Islamic supremacism. The problem is with Islamic supremacists and jihadists who seek conquest of the disbeliever, so trying to preach to Christians that they do not have a monopoly on Jesus is nonsense.
The punchline, of course, is the assertion in the article below that “to help fight Islamophobia, Americans need to understand Christianity and Islam’s many similarities.” The “Islamophobia” canard keeps popping up to fool infidels into believing that they are “racist” to have concerns about jihad. The truth is that most Christians would be delighted if Muslims as a whole accepted Jesus’ message of peace, accepted Christians, accepted the notion of free will and choice — which encompasses pluralism — and accepted the equal value of every human being.
Christians have already been driven out of the Biblical heartlands of the Middle East by jihadists. This year Christmas was banned in Bethlehem just because of Trump’s declaration that America recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
“Knowing a Muslim personally” is irrelevant except to the most intolerant.
“Christians don’t have a Christmas monopoly on Jesus. Muslims honor him too”, by Haroon Moghul, NBC News, December 24, 2017:
In his first and only official visit to an American mosque, seven years into his presidency, former President Barack Obama articulated something American Muslims know all too well: “A lot of Americans have never visited a mosque,” he said, adding that “most Americans don’t necessarily know — or at least don’t know that they know — a Muslim personally” either.
In total, there are only three or four million Muslims in America, which means we’re just about one percent of the population. It’s hard to get a word in edgewise, even though we as a country seem to be talking about Muslims all the time. There’s lots of talk, but hardly ever any listening to actual Muslims.
This might be why most Americans don’t know much about Islam, or don’t know they know much about Islam. And yet, in my experience, when Americans do learn a little bit about the Muslim basics, Islam goes from a something menacing and foreign to something remarkably familiar. And this happens to be especially true when it comes to Christmas.
Last summer, for example, I was teaching a class about Islam. We were discussing a simple story in the Qur’an, a dialogue between Mary and the Archangel Gabriel. It goes something like this:
Gabriel, an otherworldly visitor, arrives in the form of a human being to tell Mary that she is pregnant with child. But not just any child; this is the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary and messenger to the children of Israel.
Mary reacts in confusion, of course — how can she have a child when no man has touched her? But most of all she reacts with horror and despair. If she really is pregnant, that means she’s an unwed woman in a patriarchal society. Making matters worse, this child has a very special spiritual mission. Try explaining that to your traditional friends and family.
When I shared this story, a few students’ eyebrows went up, and stayed up for the rest of the class. Jesus, they asked, is in the Qur’an? He’s the Messiah and his mother is the Virgin Mary? I might as well have told them pigs could fly.
But that’s just it. For Americans, raised as we are in a Judeo-Christian milieu — whether we accept, reject, or amend it — Islam shouldn’t feel out of place in the least.
Muslims and Christians do disagree about who Jesus is: Christians believe him to be the divine Son of God while Muslims consider him a very special human and a prophet to whom God granted miracles. Just like Christians, however, Muslims believe Jesus had no father (for us, since Jesus isn’t divine, we believe he was created by God in his mother’s womb.) We also believe Jesus was the word and spirit of God, and will someday return to fill a volatile world with goodness.
In other words, Christians and Muslims both love him. And his mother too. Jesus is particularly important in Sufism, the Muslim spiritual science, where he’s viewed as a paragon of abstemiousness and mystical wisdom and taught in sermons and prayer circles all around the world.
As Christians everywhere await Christmas, a wider awareness of these spiritual and theological similarities might make Islam seem less alien. Instead of something weird and menacing, what if Americans viewed it as a belief system with deep roots here in the U.S., and a lot in common with our nation’s largest religion?
The way I see it, whether anti-Muslim animus shrinks or grows in the next few years, the importance of Jesus for American Islam will only increase.
Of course many Muslims, including me, don’t celebrate Christmas — but we’ll continue to honor Jesus. Maybe some Muslims will choose to emphasize their particularities, including our understanding of Jesus. Some Muslims might even double down on the common ground and adopt Christian practices in the name of our shared traditions. Maybe they’ll come to believe that a Muslim spin on Christmas could reduce Islamophobia.
To be an American Muslim is to be a kind of political football, a wedge issue on which, it seems, the fate of Western civilization is being decided. (This reality is both flattering and unnerving considering how few Western Muslims exist). In Europe, the fear of Islam helped drive the resurgence of the far-right, even as it helped push Britain out of the European Union. In America, as Philip Klinkner found, one of the easiest ways to find out if someone supported Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump during the 2016 presidential election was to ask voters whether they thought Obama was a Muslim.
I can’t help but wonder what traction this conspiracy theory would have gained had more Americans known more about Islam. If Americans were more informed, for example, they might have known that even if Obama were a Muslim, he would still have believed in Jesus. He also would have believed in the divine origins of the Gospel (and the Torah) and in Mary, a single mom who carried the weight of the world in her womb.
Which is a really roundabout way of wishing you all a very merry Christmas…..
Jaladhi says
Yup, Muslims respect Jesus – hmm. that’s why they go rampage smashing churches, crosses and killing Christians!! Funny way of respecting somebody – oh, that is the Muslim way of respect!! Kill, kill, kill…
blitz2b says
Nice way of whitewashing Islam to make it more palatable for today’s consumption…. Make Jesus the focal point of Islam.
What an idiot. Christians, nay, no person with even an ounce of common sense should take the Isa of Islam as a historical figure. Isa is as real as Zeus, Thor or the tooth fairy.
Muslims, Stop equating this fictitious cowardly self deprecating personality with the true historical Jesus of the Gospels.
Just because no secular person gives two hoots about the birth of the paedophile prophet, this Muslim decides to lay claim of Jesus and his mother… Will not work.
Lu says
“Some Muslims might even double down on the common ground and adopt Christian practices in the name of our shared traditions. Maybe they’ll come to believe that a Muslim spin on Christmas could reduce Islamophobia.”
“… one of the easiest ways to find out if someone supported Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump during the 2016 presidential election was to ask voters whether they thought Obama was a Muslim.”
Such statements are not only idiotic (the second one is extra dumb!) – that fella can’t be so stupid. He is a provocateur, and NBC lends him a platform for his job – only that would explain this inane drivel. This is a piece of apologia of something that is so bad that can’t be defended by rational and historical argument – hence the drivel.
Rouge1 says
They kill more followers of mohomad than followers of Christ. Satan is the father of murder and they are making their father happy.
Save Europe says
True. Let’s ask the Copts in Egypt. They’re very tolerated by the Muslims….no question!
gravenimage says
Yes–Christians are persecuted throughout the Muslim world.
Sam says
This shows again How wonderful Islam is.
How can anyone stand these lies by Evil Islam followers?
Jaladhi says
Funny!! Next one is equally as good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQriT9dPq60
Mirit says
If you Christians buy this crap, I will let you know that I have read that in Islam – Mary is Miriam, Moses’ sister. The prophet Miriam. Can you believe the garbage and stupid things that are written in the Quran??? Moses lived many many years earlier than Mary. But Islam doesn’t care about that.
If you want to understand why Islam has no connection to Christianity read the Bible again.
Those of you who know Islam and think I got it wrong, please correct me.
Save Europe says
Perhaps the Muslim troll who occasionally posts on here can respond! 😉
RAB says
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall observations posted here to the effect that Muhammad purposely changed the Christian gospels thereby relegating Jesus from the son of God to simply one of the prophets in order that he, Muhammad, could claim to be the last and final prophet regarding the destiny of the human race under the will of Allah..Have I got it right?
RAB says
Why am I continually being flagged “Your comment is awaiting moderation?” I have said nothing on this site to compare with the virulent comments of other writers. Please explain or this will be the last time I will venture a comment here, regretfully.
marc says
moderation is not just picking up bad behaviour, but changes in how and where someone logged in, the vast majority of posts are never published, manual moderation is very time consuming, please have patience.
gravenimage says
RAB, there are a number of reasons, including having more than two links. It is not necessarily a reference to content–in fact, most often it is not, since the content of y.our comments cannot be immediately assessed
Save Europe says
Yes that’s accurate.
Jack Diamond says
Muhammad’s claim as the Seal of the Prophets, the one true intercessor between Allah and men, required the replacement, theft, of the Jewish and Christian religions, their Books, their prophets, their holy places.
The Qur’an declares the mission of Muhammad: “that he may warn those who say ‘Allah hath begotten a son!'” (18:4) That Jesus/Isa came only to proclaim Muhammad: “Jesus/Isa said ‘I am the Messenger of Allah sent to you confirming the law (which came) before me and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad (Muhammad).'” (61:6)
Islam teaches that Jesus himself was a Muslim, as were Abraham and all the Biblical prophets, as are YOU born a Muslim. Islam teaches Christianity is a falsified religion. Islam teaches that on the Day of Resurrection Isa will return to “break the cross” and destroy the false Christianity: will be a witness against the Christians for believing in his death…as Allah will taunt the Christians on the day of their doom, saying ‘where are my partners whom ye imagined?’ (40:73; 28:62-64; 4:159).
“Allah’s Apostle said, how will you be when the Son of Mary (Jesus/Isa) descends among you and will judge by the law of the Qur’an and not by the law of the Gospel?” (Bukhari v4b60n3449)
3:19- the only religion before Allah (recognized by Allah) is Islam
3:85- if you even so much as desire another religion than Islam it will never be accepted of you and you will a loser in the Hereafter.
gravenimage says
Good post, Jack.
LeftisruiningCanada says
I’m not sure what you mean when you say that “mohammad changed the Gospels”.
It seems that the author of the koran had little familiarity with anything from the NT, likely relying on stories heard from others, including those found in some later pseudepigraphal ‘gospels’.
gravenimage says
LeftisruiningCanada, Muslims claim that Jews and Christians “corrupted” the Torah and Gospels, which were originally just like the vile Qur’an.
LeftisruiningCanada says
They do, yes, all the time. They just don’t have an evidence for those changes and, if they applied the same standards used to try and discredit the NT on their own book, they’d find a lot more to worry about.
But that’s not allowed. Only the NT can be subjected to extreme scrutiny. Bart Erhman won’t touch koranic textual criticism “so long as he values his life”.
RAB says
Come to think of it, why has my sign-in name been changed?
marc says
Looks like you are logging in with a different account from a different IP, i’ll just clean that up for you
mgoldberg says
And never an apology for the mass homicidism across the globe, and especially against Christians in muslims lands. And never an apoligy for the mass bigotry against others who do not wish to practice as they do. They shout their rages and never do the murders by crowds of the eternally enraged, ever get the ‘moderate’ muslims to show remorse, let alone shame.
All they ever do is express alarm at ‘islamophobia’ which virtually never arises, and express opinions that non muslims need to ‘understand’ muslims better. 32,000 Jihad attacks worldwide just since 9/11, some half a million wounded, and murdered in 16 yrs, across all the nations that have muslims. And all we get is that the non muslims need to understand muslims better.
Save Europe says
After so many terrorist attacks across Europe, over the last several years, it amazes me that Muslims don’t desist in wearing Islamic regalia – I’d be ashamed and want to keep a low profile and show sensitivity. However, all I see is ever increasing regalia of that ilk….
gravenimage says
This is Muslim supremacism. They are asserting their hegemony, and using it to taunt native Infidels. It is also a form of “Islamoforming” Infidel societies.
Save Europe says
Very true indeed. I also feel – with some – that they are actually hoping for genuine abuse directed at them. There is a solitary Muslim family in my very small town. One of the three daughters wears a Hijab and struts around eyeballing people and sneering. It’s truly incredible.
theopholus says
Interesting: “Muslims honor him too.” That quote says an awful lot about the Muslim concept of honor. Goes right to honor killings. If Mulims “honor” Jesus so much recognize his resurrection. If Muslims honor Jesus so much, stop persecuting Christians. If Muslims “honor” Jesus, a Jew, so much leave the Jews alone. The Hebrews were here long before Islam was invented.
If Muslims “honor” Jesus so much, follow Him.
mgoldberg says
You honor them by not torturing them, by not killing them, by not destroying their churches, nor preventing them from following their beliefs. Not by claiming that islam honors him too.
That they can have the unmitigated gall to ignore all the homicidism, all the torturing of others is beyond the pale. It is sign of denial and ignores the lives of others…. all others. That is not honor, that is beyond
dishonor. It is shameless and beyond disgusting.
Save Europe says
Spot on.
Save Europe says
+1
samdav7 says
Haroon Moghul you’re either a liar or dumb.
Reading your cheap article and looking at your picture, it’s obvious that you’re both !
beyondculturewars says
Haroon Moghul is a typical lefty spox, but a very important role model for today’s American muslims. He sways between victimology and fake ecumenicism because his worldview cannot be reconciled with the freedom of the society in which he lives..
Check out his new book about how he deals with his manic-depressive diagnosis after the blowback of 9-11.
That’s why he left out ‘the rest of the story.’ Mary proclaimed her fiat, took action by visiting her cousin Elizabeth, and witnessed at the foot of the cross and on pentecost.
He is only displaying the ‘cover’ that all muslims in America can emulate, until they reach that critical number in our culture. Then, they can emulate Anjem Choudary or Linda Sarsour.
Juliao Guerra says
While Muslim wolves dressed as lambs try to fool Christians, in December Muslim terrorists bombed eight Christians celebrating Christmas at a Methodist church in Bangladesh and killed four Christians at a Christmas service in Nigeria. It is revolting to have to hear a lying hypocritical Muslim claiming to admire Jesus while other Muslims persecute and kill Christians. This Muslim pretends to ignore the ISIS threats to turn Christian Christmas into a “bloodbath.”
gravenimage says
All true.
Kepha says
Who has a monopoly on Jesus?
As I read the New Testament, Jesus demands a monopoly on us. If he is not God Incarnate, he is a dangerous madman; but if he is God Incarnate, we’d better stop and listen.
Wellington says
There’s a third option, Kepha: That Jesus was neither God on earth nor a madman but one whose very life and words were misunderstood, embellished and distorted as presented in the NT. This was PRECISELY Thomas Jefferson’s point and which is why he produced the “Jefferson Bible.” Also why Jefferson despised Saint Paul because he thought that this man did great harm and not any good.
Even if one rejects this third choice in favor of one or the other two, it is a third choice nonetheless which EXISTS. So, you’re “either” is “compounded” by this THIRD CHOICE. And good to have such an impressive man as Thomas Jefferson supporting this third choice. No, it does not mean he was right but it most definitely means that your positing of only two options is wrong.
Your turn if you care.
Kenin says
Wellington, you can tell that to Jesus Christ Almighty yourself when you’re grovelling for mercy at the foot of his throne.
Wellington says
Did I indicate, Kenin, my preference for any of the three options? My only point was that a third option is within the realm of logic and possibility, as with the other two that Kepha pointed out. And I guess Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, drafter of the Statute for Religious Freedom in Virginia, Governor of Virginia, Minister to France, Secretary of State, Vice-President of the United States, President of the United States and founder of the University of Virginia who thought this third option the reality has done a lot of grovelling at the foot of Jesus’s throne? Is that about right, Kenin? Wow, must be wonderful to be so sure of oneself on a matter that reasonable minds can disagree about.
Jacqueline Robnett says
Mr. Wellington, is this the same Thomas Jefferson who kept one of his teenage slaves sequestered in his home for sexual pleasure, produced children by her, and never freed any of them? Is this the logic on which you rely?
Wellington says
All the world in the 18th century had slavery, Jacqueline Robnett. American Indians enslaved other American Indians. Many sub-Saharan African tribes enslaved other sub-Saharan African tribes. Asians in huge numbers enslaved others. Muslims certainly enslaved many, hell they still do to this day. And so on. But it was the West which first realized that slavery was wrong and thereafter took measures to end it (and the West is the ONLY civilization or society in history that has apologized for engaging in slavery—–do you even know this?).
Now to Thomas Jefferson. Unless you are ready to acknowledge that slavery was a feature across all the world when Jefferson lived, and unless you know that extraordinary human being himself thought slavery was wrong but didn’t know quite what to do about it (Jefferson said, “We have the lion by the tail and we dare not let him go”), and unless you know there is no record of Jefferson treating his slaves badly, and if all you can do is mention the Sally Hemmings situation without noting all of Jefferson’s many achievements, and unless you also know that just freeing slaves in late 18th and early 19th century America was itself problematic because what then would become of those slaves who had little education, no material resources, etc., then you are nothing more than a rank, actually very rank, self-righteous ignoramus who takes their assumptions of their time and then “imports” them to past times and stupidly, yes, stupidly, holds people in previous ages to standards that came long after them.
For instance, imagine if five hundred years from now all meat eating is considered barbaric. Do you really think people then should look back at all meat eaters in our time and call them wicked? Or, imagine if five hundred years from now abortion is considered, without exception, completely objectionable, do you then think it fair to castigate all people who back in the 21st century were pro-choice, even those who were pro-choice but favored many, many restrictions on abortion?
Frankly, your comment conveys far more about you than you realize. You showed your limitations without realizing such. Actually, your kind makes me sick because they are so one-dimensional in their thinking. I’ve conveyed enough for now, disgusted by your comment as I am. Grow the hell up, especially where pure knowledge and perspective are concerned. Your approach can only lead to the bastardization of history and several other stupidities. Done here.
Wellington says
With respect, LeftisruiningCanada, the time elapsed between Jesus and the written records is not small nor inconsequential. Quite the contrary. Let’s see here. Jesus died around 30 A.D. The first written accounts of him that we have are by Paul, some twenty-five years later, which Paul (Saul): 1) never knew Jesus; 2) wrote in a language, Greek, Jesus did not use; 3) wrote about Jesus even though Jesus himself left no writings (rather like Socrates); and 4) relied on testimonials by others even though contemporary testimonials in our time about, say, a car accident which just occurred, can differ remarkably within literally minutes of said accident, let alone testimonials of the accident decades later. Other objections I could raise here about the entire historiographical problems involved but these are enough at present.
Moreover, the entire crucifixion story, seen from an historical perspective, is open to much doubt. In no particular order of importance the following objections can be raised: 1) In all four Gospels Pontius Pilate is not aware of Jesus until the very day he is brought to him, Good Friday. This makes no sense. Every Roman governor (a prefect in Pilate’s case since prefects or procurators were given charge of lesser provinces such as Judea, taken away from Archelaus, one of Herod the Great’s sons who proved unable to rule that portion of Herod’s kingdom 23 years before Pilate became the fifth Prefect appointed to rule Judea) had a spy service. It was standard fare. So here we have in Jesus someone attracting huge crowds, supposedly performing miracles, raising people from the dead, etc., and Pilate doesn’t know about this guy until the very day he is brought to him and even though any Prefect of Judea would have been in regular contact with the Sanhedrin and its High Priest (in this instance Caiaphas, who became High Priest even before Pilate became Prefect because the previous Roman Prefect, Valerius Gratus, appointed Caiaphas to this position, as was within the purview of the Roman Prefect of Judea—–and Pilate reappointed yearly Caiaphas as High Priest for the ten years he was Prefect, 26-36 A.D.), consulting such high-placed Jews on a regular basis and yet Pilate doesn’t know about Jesus until the day he is brought to him and even though, per the Gospels, Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin had on several previous occasions tried to arrest Jesus and failed?; 2) Crucifixion was meant by the Romans to be an extreme punishment which insured that the crucified person would suffer for days before dying but Jesus dies in three hours; 3) all those crucified were crucified naked, for extra humiliation’s sake, but Jesus, for religious, artistic and modesty reasons, is always shown or described with a loin cloth; 4) Roman soldiers, whether auxiliaries or in the legions were under strict instructions to keep all people far away from the crucified, yet in the NT Jesus is described as talking to his mother and St. John who stand at the foot of his cross; 5) after dying Jesus is allowed by Pilate to be taken down from the cross the very day he dies, but the Romans wanted crucifixion to serve as a testimony to all and thus once a person died on the cross after days of agony he was left to rot for weeks upon weeks with birds of prey picking out his eyes, liver, etc. just as further evidence to all what would happen to those who opposed Rome in a major way; 6) the entire Barrabas account, found in all four Gospels, has phoniness written all over it, here’s why: A) there is zero evidence that any Roman Governor (or Prefect or Procurator) would have allowed a criminal to be let off as Barrabas was because of some “natives'” religious holiday, in this case Passover; B) the very name “Barrabas” is highly contrived, in Aramaic it means “Son of the Father;” so this guy’s name was Son of the Father?—–as numerous historians have indicated (e.g., Michael Grant) the entire Barrabas story has contrivement written all over it; 7) in two of the Gospels Jesus was crucified with thieves——-but the Romans didn’t crucify thieves according to all the evidence we have, they punished them but didn’t crucify them, crucifixion was reserved for basically two types of people, those who engaged in treason against Rome and those who were slaves and rebelled against their status (in the interest of full disclosure, a minority of scholars aver that the Romans did crucify thieves but this is dubious at best).
And I could mention many other objections to the crucifixion story as related in the Gospels but I think I have raised enough. Which brings me to a much larger point or matter, i.e., considering all the objections (and they are many) that could be raised to Jesus being God on earth for some third of a century, and assuming Jesus was who the Four Gospels say he was, how could any just God consign a person (e.g., Thomas Jefferson) to eternal perdition for, quite understandably, using his reason and knowledge to the best of his ability to DOUBT the entire “Jesus story?”
Were I God and Wellington doubted that I existed (which I do, though I don’t deny the possibility that there is a higher power, this is the reason why I am an agnostic and not an atheist), I might very well have a divine laugh at his expense but I certainly wouldn’t send him to the eternal fires of Hell for doubting me. I have to wonder if you get this, smart and informed as you are, because, you see, I vigorously assert that denying religious propositions, when said propositions can reasonably be treated with skepticism, should be something a benevolent and merciful Higher Power should tolerate and not condemn. But yet Jesus in the Gospels is only too ready to condemn anyone who doesn’t accept what he says on faith. I say shame on Jesus for this, though the good news here, and the main reason why (there are others) I wish every Muslim would wake up tomorrow a devout Christian, is that Jesus, though a control-freak, only threatens punishment in the next world (which I think highly likely non-existent) while Mohammed, not only a control-freak but also a psychopathic killer, threatens punishment not only in the next world but this one as well.
Good to have this back and forth with you. Oh yeah, we need sometime in the future to drink some beers together. Preferably many. Take care, pal.
LeftisruiningCanada says
There’s no doubt that the third option you offer is technically possible.
Accepting it however would require the rejection of the most widely and best attested collection of ancient writings in existence. The time elapsed between the life, death and resurrection of Christ, and the written records of it, is so small as to be consider irrelevant when it comes to the concept of evolving mythologies.
With regards to the not uncommon in certain circles idea the Paul was responsible for corrupting the earlier message of Christ, i would respectfully refer you to the NT itself. Paul was confirmed in his ministry by several close companions of Christ, and his writings are considered scripture by Peter. Paul can be seen to be a firm believer in the absolute deity of Christ, and quiet Trinitarian in general.
I would give way to your historical knowledge of Jefferson of course, but from what i understand, it might not be incorrect to say that he was a materialist? Does not his edited version of the NT have the miracles removed?
It is also of note that, during his lifetime, there was very little work available on the transmission of the text of the NT. It was not likely he had any of the information we now can easily read about the early papyri. Codex Aleph was yet to be discovered. Patristic writings have shed much light on the early years of the post apostolic faith. Archeology continues to confirm Biblical accounts.
All of these have drastically reduced the probability that the NT has been “misunderstood, embellished and distorted”. The chance of any early large scale alternation is almost nil, simply because of the way in which the letters were copied and distributed across large geographical areas so quickly – an area of study referred to as the ‘multi focality issue”.
It may be that a man such as Jefferson would modify his position in the light of so much more evidence, but of course that is something for the professional historians to debate for the next several hundred years 😀
As always, respectfully yours.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Ha, quite the list of things to respond to 🙂
I’ll give it a go.
“the time elapsed between Jesus and the written records is not small nor inconsequential. Quite the contrary. Let’s see here. Jesus died around 30 A.D. The first written accounts of him that we have are by Paul, some twenty-five years later,”
I’ll have to pass on responding to this bit fully right now. I remember reading a study about the gaps between historical events and the later written records, which came to the conclusion that it usually takes much longer for the development of significant elaborations. I cannot find the source at this moment.
In General i don’t see any evidence that these huge elaborations happened. We have continuity between Christ’s time with His disciples, and their later activities. Even Jewish sources call Jesus a ‘sorcerer”, referring to His miracles. Torah has a category for those who work wonders, but are to be rejected, for Jewish people to put Him in if they want to.
“Paul (Saul): 1) never knew Jesus; 2) wrote in a language, Greek, Jesus did not use; 3) wrote about Jesus even though Jesus himself left no writings (rather like Socrates); and 4) relied on testimonials by others even though contemporary testimonials in our time”
Looking at the NT accounts in Acts, which Paul did not write, we see that Paul did encounter the risen Christ. This encounter had a drastic effect on Paul, which took the Christians a while to accept as true. Not surprising, since he was originally out to capture or kill them. All of the NT books were written in Greek. Matthew may have written a parallel Hebrew version, according to some patristic sources. It seems to have been a multilingual area at that time, Greek being the one common to many. Paul was fluent in Hebrew also, if that helps.
Based on the above, i am not forced to assume that Paul relied only upon second hand information. He claims to have been taught by Christ directly. This claim is upheld by those who spent 3 or so years under the discipleship of Christ. Paul’s dramatic conversion also lends credibility to this, as does his consequent course of life, and death.
” 1) In all four Gospels Pontius Pilate is not aware of Jesus until the very day he is brought to him,”
Apologies, but i’m not sure why we are to assume this. Reading through the parallel accounts of Jesus and Pilates meeting (John 18, Matt 27, Mark 15, Luke 23), i see nothing to force us to make that conclusion.
“2) Crucifixion was meant by the Romans to be an extreme punishment which insured that the crucified person would suffer for days before dying but Jesus dies in three hours”
Yes, this is noted in the accounts of the Crucifixion, and does reflect the surprise you mention. The soldiers are surprised that they need not break Christs legs, as they had done the others, because He is already dead.
But this is explained in the text. Firstly, we know that Jesus had already made the statement that nobody takes His life from Him, but that He gives it up willingly. Then, we see this put into action: Christ yields up His spirit whilst on the cross.
We need not assume that the length of time spent affixed to the cross has any bearing on the propitiatory value of His sacrifice.
It is the life for a life principle that counts.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“3) all those crucified were crucified naked, for extra humiliation’s sake, but Jesus, for religious, artistic and modesty reasons, is always shown or described with a loin cloth; ”
Mere artistic license. While Christians permit the depiction of Christ, unlike muslims with their muhammad, i suppose many have felt that there are limits with what is acceptable.
“4) Roman soldiers, whether auxiliaries or in the legions were under strict instructions to keep all people far away from the crucified, yet in the NT Jesus is described as talking to his mother and St. John who stand at the foot of his cross”
There is no explicit description of how many feet from the cross the observers were, although in Luke 27:55 we are told that they are “beholding afar off”. This same description is given in Matt, and Mark. John says “by”, but this only seems to apply to a smaller group. Perhaps they had ventured closer, and were allowed to by the soldiers. It doesn’t say they were so close as ‘the foot’ of the cross.
As you say, there were limits.
“5) after dying Jesus is allowed by Pilate to be taken down from the cross the very day he dies, but the Romans wanted crucifixion to serve as a testimony to all”
Yes, this also is noted as somewhat unusual, it taking the intercession of the wealthy Joseph of Arimathaea. It appears that this man was a member of the Sanhedrin, and had respect in Jerusalem. This may explain his ability to prevail upon Pilate for Christ’s body.
That an exception is made to normal precedence by no means implies a fabrication of fact, does it?
Of course, i would also add that there was a prophecy relating to this event saying that Christ’s body would not suffer corruption. I understand how that could lead some to conclude a motive for forgery, but the alternative conclusion is equally valid unless we are assuming the impossibility of prophecy.
Wellington says
LeftisruiningCanada: Good to hear from you. Yes, I suppose it could be argued that there is nothing in the four Gospels which demonstrates conclusively that Pilate might not have known about Jesus beforehand, but the impression I have gotten, especially from Luke, is that Pilate doesn’t know about Jesus until Good Friday, having to be told he is “stirring up the people, teaching throughout all Judea…..” and then Pilate also doesn’t know, per Luke, that Jesus is from Galilee until told. By the time Jesus is brought to Pilate, Pilate had been Prefect for a minimum of three years and would have had eyes and ears everywhere, as any Roman Governor would have. And don’t forget that, per the Gospels, Jesus was not just your ordinary preacher but one attracting huge crowds, thus Pilate would have had to know something about Jesus before Jesus was brought to him.
The Joseph of Arimathaea account, while theoretically possible, does push the boundaries of what a Roman governor would allow and Paul meeting Jesus after he has risen is not an historical fact but a religious assertion. During Jesus’ lifetime Paul (Saul) never met Jesus.
And then there is the entire Barabbas account which is highly suspicious for the two reasons I already gave.
Do I think Jesus of Nazareth was crucified? Most definitely. But I also think embellishment of this crucifixion occurred and it is often difficult to weed out the facts from the embellishments.
LeftisruiningCanada says
I’m having great difficulty getting replies to show up in our discussion here. The following has been ‘posted’, not shown up, and then i’ve rewritten and tried again a dozen times already.
6: Barabbas and the Paschal Pardon.
All i can offer is the fact that up until recently, we didn’t even have any proof that Pilate himself existed, apart from the NT records. Then, a new find provides support:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/historical-notes-pontius-pilate-a-name-set-in-stone-1084786.html
It may well be that something will be turned up that assists with this also.
The name Barabbas doesn’t strike me as outlandish: The name Abba has been noted on burials from that period, and we even have an Egyptian Pres with the family name of “Abbas” right now. I’m not a semitic names guy of course…..
Wellington says
Wrong about Pilate, LeftisruiningCanada. Both Philo and Josephus mention him. Philo is quite hostile to Pilate while Josephus is somewhat more understanding. In any case, Pontius Pilate (whose praenomen we don’t know) was DEFINITELY Prefect of Judea from 26-36 A.D. No need to rely upon NT sources for Pilate’s existence. Not at all. Actually, I’m surprised you don’t know this by now.
As for the entire Barabbas “story,” it should strike you as embellishment of the first degree for the two reasons I have already mentioned. Consult an historian like Michael Grant for more detail here. Remember, “Barrabas” means Son of the Father. The two words combined, “bar” and “abba” ring hollow to the core. Besides, Romans didn’t let criminals off because of some native holy day. Contrivement again I would assert.
But here’s the larger issue: With all the reasonable objections that one can raise, not only to the crucifixion story but to the entire idea that Jesus was God personally present on earth for a third of a century, how dare God, even if the “Jesus story” is true, condemn one to eternal perdition for not accepting it? But this is EXACTLY what the NT God does. Shame on Him—–EVEN IF TRUE.
Get where I’m coming from? It’s from a Promethean perspective. Yes, even if the Christian “story” is true (which I would bet my life on that it is not), it should still be rejected and shame on God. You see, I am beyond atheism. Atheism is small stuff objection. I aver that my objection goes way beyond “mere” atheism. And I assert that I am correct in said objection.
LeftisruiningCanada says
The site is basically not allowing me to post anything on this page anymore. i can’t post my replies to you here Wellington.
LeftisruiningCanada says
maybe this will work:
link contains reply to points made further up page.
https://www.hastebin.com/mowikivisa.sql
LeftisruiningCanada says
hmm, yes you appear to be quite right about the references to Pilate.
Funny, i must have been remembering some objections from somewhere, and had not bothered to check it out at this time. Thanks for the heads up.
At least we also have hard physical evidence too!
DhimmiNot says
Wellington and LeftisruiningCanada
I would like to compliment you both for your series of comments. I found your remarks very educational.
As far as the number of comments, Left wrote 20, Wellington 11, GravenImage 27
LeftisruiningCanada says
In addition, since many of the questions raised here are often also raised by men such as Dr Bart Ehrman, i recommend the follow book. The authors are respected scholars currently active in their fields. It will bring a little balance to the debate:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=JGy2AgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
Quite a bit of it is readable online at that link. Chapter 4 address some of what we covered above.
DhimmiNot says
Thank you.
MFritz says
Sorry, but “your” twisted perception Jesus is not Jesus. Not even a little. Not at all.
Dave says
The average Muslim has been deceived by Muslim apologists who use such logical fallacies without regard to reason, fact or honesty. But there are many Muslims who want to be rational in their religion and thus have an open mind to rational discourse. Once they see that their arguments are based on logical fallacies, they will be open to the wonderful news that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins on the cross.
Allah had no son!
tedh754 says
Committing rape and murder is a strange way of honoring Him.
gravenimage says
Not for Muslims…
LeftisruiningCanada says
And not when their devil sponsored koran tells them that isa will come back and do pretty much the same to all the Christians…
mgoldberg says
I was appalled listening to Obama go to India, and tell the Indians that they should nourish and care for their muslim citizens. What an abomination to tell the Hindus that they should nurture and care for their muslims. The victim meme is overwhelming in the Left, and the Muslims evidence no shame, no horror at the homicidism of their own agains all others and their own fellow muslims.
I don’t care if they believe that they have jesus in their religion. I care if they believe that submitting them, and killing them is acceptable- that is utterly unacceptable. And that is what needs to be cultivated by all the 80% of humanity that isn’t Islamic.
WESTPAC Spy says
Muslims massacred approx. 80 million Hindus, Sikh, Buddhists and Jains between 1000 and 1500A.D. The figure could be as high as 120 million. If so it would be the largest genocide in history. Even if it’s as low as 80 million it still rivals the communists, and imagine what the Muslims would have done if they had modern weapons instead of swords, spears, bows, and horribly cruel torture devices that would make a Roman blanch.
Why would they want to cherish and nourish THAT?
It’s why the Buddhists in Myanmar want to kick the Bengalis (as they call them) back into Bangladesh. They’ve been subject to constant slaughter and genocide since 1000A.D. The last major slaughter was in 1942. When the British retreated in the face of the Japanese onslaught the Bengalis stayed behind and switched sides. Then they killed at least 40,000 Buddhists.
When the Taliban blew up the Buddhas of Bamiyan tin 2001 the Western world was outraged that the Taliban had destroyed such priceless treasures (and the world was shocked when IS destroyed the contents of museums and the well-preserved ruins at Palmyra; apparently the Western world couldn’t make the connection that this sort of destruction has something to do with Islam). But the Western world never asked what happened to the people who built those priceless statues. Long story short the Buddhist learned that the Western world cares a great deal about Buddhist artwork. But not at all about Buddhist lives. So they could now hardly give a rip at about what we think of them. And Western “intellectuals” can’t understand why a humanitarian lie Aung San Suu Kyi remains mostly silent about what the Buddhists are doing to the Muslims.
She knows the history of her people as well as anyone, that’s why. Demanding that they let the Bengalis stay in their country is like demanding holocaust survivors rent rooms in their homes to their former Nazi guards and executioners.
cyrus basile says
bravo
gravenimage says
It is like cherishing a viper at your breast.
LeftisruiningCanada says
At least vipers don’t smile before they bite you.
Terry Gain says
Islam dishonours Jesus by claiming that He, with the help of Allah, faked His death on the cross. Islam turns Jesus, and Allah, into deceivers. Islam has no problem with deceivers, or murderers, rapists, pedophiles and terrorists. Muhammad was all of these. Some prophet!!!
If Satan had the power to invent a religion, he would have invented Islam. It is not just evil, it is insane.
gravenimage says
And the Muslim “Jesus” faked his death in a particularly ugly way, by having some poor soul killed in his place. *Ugh*.
Cameron Tremblay says
Don’t tell us you honour something, islam has lied too much! You must show you honour something. Maybe we should start a religion whose sole purpose is to eradicate islam from the face of the earth? How would muslims feel about that? Its high time we started holding all islam accountable for its barbaric practices and start holding our politicians and media accountable for their cowardice in not calling islam out. DEUS VULT!
Michael Copeland says
“He also would have believed in the divine origins of the Gospel (and the Torah)….”
Of course: he has no option. The Koran says so:
“And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel” – 3:3
The Koran instructs Christians to judge by the Gospel:
“The followers of the Gospels (the New Testament) must judge according to what God has revealed in it. Those who do not judge by the laws of God are evil doers” – 3:47.
“Say, “O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord” – 5:68
Mohammed was told what to do if he had doubts:
“So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you” – 10:94.
Furthermore the Koran makes clear:
“None can change his words” -18:27
Haroon Moghul has stepped neatly into the Islamic Dilemma. Here it is:
If the Gospel IS the word of God then Islam is false, because the Koran contradicts it.
If the Gospel IS NOT the word of God then Islam is false because the Koran affirms it.
Either way, Islam is false.
With thanks to David Wood:
The Islamic Dilemma regarding the Quran and Bible explained by David Wood – youtube.
DhimmiNot says
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNAS0aaViM4
Here is the link.
I would like to see a sequel where an imam tried to defeat (or explain) this dilemma.
gravenimage says
Michael, Islam just claims that Jews and Christians “corrupted” the Bible. Never mind that there is no scholarly or archaeological evidence for this at all.
mortimer says
The Jesus of the New Testament is not the Jesus in the Koran.
Mohammed did not read the New Testament and was not even aware that there were four gospels. He knew nothing of the Acts of the Apostles, Epistles or Book of Revelations. Mohammed invented his own creative version by plagiarizing stories he heard without even checking the reliability of the sources. They were merely stories for him flowing from his unconscious mind.
There are several plays and novels about Joan of Arc which differ in details, because in creative writing, you can make things up. The Koran was written in the same manner … creative writing coming out the subconscious.
gravenimage says
Even with a garbled or partial understanding of the Gospels, Muhammed knew enough to know that Jesus was a loving figure, an aspect of a loving God. He could not have that…
LeftisruiningCanada says
There’s that interesting hadith which has a man, after death, going to each of the prophets asking if they would intercede to allah for him. They all mention their own sins, mo included. But Jesus doesn’t.
That’s another small part that made it into common circulation.
Lu says
As funny as it may be (and, actually – it is!) we are looking at one of the major attempts to redefine history, better say – to change it to be consistent with someone’s beliefs, or rather to defend something plain and ugly.
This is a very dangerous path. Media are assisting to it, almost all western politicians are helping it and enabling it. What could be the final destination of these attempts? – The answer is pretty clear: installation of a political system which is a direct negation of what the West has accomplished – I dare say – in millennia.
Let’s think about it … what can be done to reverse this trend. Millennials won’t help much – my own experience with their views, expectations of “friendly, diverse, nice world for all and all people sharing their friendliness in it” etc. etc.
All this should ring a bell. Again – ominous parallels with the 1930’s abound. Few saw it coming back then. Few see it coming now – better say, few politicians are willing to see it coming now.
gravenimage says
Yes–Islam tries to rewrite history at every point. The bs above is part of that.
Henry jones says
Muslims honor jesus? Since when? If that’s true, then can someone explain to me why the deface and destroy Jesus statues and pictures?
LeftisruiningCanada says
They believe that depicting prophets is dishonorable. Some believe that any depiction of any creature is blasphemy. Depends on who’s holding the biggest gun.
wm1 says
The ‘Jesus’ Muslims ‘honor’ is a satanic counterfeit of Yeshua. Any knowledgeable Christian knows that. A different Jesus. A different gospel. So Muslims are accursed. Galatians 1: 6-9
They are also perishing in their sins because they reject the Jesus who died on the cross for their sins. 1 Corinthians 1: 18
As for the tayquiya that Obama is a Christian (and not the Muslim he’s always been and always will be) here’s his own testimony. See if this sounds, even remotely, anything like that of a true Christian-notwithstanding the fact I’ve never seen any ‘fruit’ of his conversion.
Do not be deceived.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thedudeabides/obama-on-faith-the-exclusive-interview/
Wellington says
Every adult Christian (ah, what he hell, inform Christian children of this too) should know, per Islam, that Jesus was not crucified and did not rise thereafter from the dead (in Sura 4) and that the Trinity is denied and looked upon as evidence of polytheism by Muslims, and finally that the Islamic Jesus (Isa) is going to come back at the end of the world and throw all the Christians into Hell for deifying Him.
So, when a Muslim says to a Christian something like “Islam also honors Jesus,” know that this is a classic example of one of the six kinds of deception permitted in Islam, in this case kitman, which is deception by omission. There is no excuse, sixteen years after 9/11 and over 32,000 documented Islamic terrorist attacks worldwide since that dreadful day in American history, for any Christian not knowing what Islam puts forth about Jesus and what Islam has to say about Christianity. No excuse.
samdav7 says
I agree
The Quran says:
“They killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them”
Now I don’t understand why would God make the whole thing up and create an illusion about the crucifixion ?
There’s no reason for the real God to make things up or lie or deceive people.
But that’s the God of Islam, the world master of deception, genuine evil who gave permission to all Muslims to lie under oath !
gravenimage says
Actually, what Muslims believe about the crucifixion is even worse than its being an illusion–they believe that Jesus sent some poor fellow to die horribly in his place.
I very much take your point, though–why would “Allah” deceive people like this, then condemn those who believed his deception? Because “Allah” is one sadistic motherf*cker.
bobm says
islam is ANTI Christ….. 1 John 2:22…. he that denies the Father and Son is a LIAR….he is antichrist……THAT …would define islam directly..
Jayell says
Theological theory apart, if muslims are supposed to honour Jesus, why do they disregard virtually everything he taught?
gravenimage says
Exactly, Jim. All of that stuff about Jesus being the Savior, being a healer and peacemaker, and loving his flock as Muslims see it was “corrupted” by Christians. Muslims claim that the Bible was originally as vicious as the Qur’an. Never mind that this is ahistorical tripe.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Most muslims think that the “injil” was a single book that allah gave to isa, and which has subsequently been lost.
In this way they can both anachronistically assume that mohammads version of ‘receiving’ a book was the way isa received his, and are also able to denigrate isa because they think that he failed in his mission by losing the book.
There is of course not a single shred of evidence for any of this, and a great deal that witnesses against it.
Save Europe says
You omitted Dino!
gravenimage says
Dino was an ipso facto dog–and Muslims *hate* dogs!
Save Europe says
I saw Dino as more of a goat. Fred was often friendly with him 😉
St. Manuel II Palaiologus says
Muslims blaspheme Jesus.
WESTPAC Spy says
Jesus is not in the Quran. The Arabic word for Jesus is Yesua, derived trom the Hebrew Yeshua. Instead they have some character named Issa, which is not Jesus.
And even though the Muslims think that’s Jesus, they don’t honor him. they dishonor him as a prophet. Even though Allah promised Issa that his followers would be uppermost until the day of resurrection, if this Issa character is supposed to be Jesus there is no trace of his followers at all. In fact, within 5 years of the crucifixion Christians were celebrating Jesus’ divinity, the fact that he died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins, and that he was resurrected from dead and ascended into heaven. In fact, some scholars say the Carmen Christi can be traced to as early as 18 months after the crucifixion.
What happened to Issa’s Muslim followers? What happened to Issa’s Ingil? Apparently Allah is piss poor at keeping promises because not only weren’t his followers uppermost until the day of resurrection there was no trace of them within a decade of Jesus’s death.
But think about it. Despite living the most miraculous life in history, the Quranic “Jesus” accomplished exactly nothing despite all his hard work. And Muslims call this “honoring” Jesus.
The only Christians who became “uppermost” were he followers of Yeshua/Yesua who worshipped Him as the Son of the Father in Heaven, Yahweh, who within 300 years ruled the Roman Empire.
Wellington says
With respect, WESTPAC Spy, Jesus is definitely in the Koran, regardless of his name. Who the hell do you think is referred to in Sura 4 where it says that “the guy” was not killed, was not crucified?
C’mon. Islam bastardizes and appropriates so much of what Islam touches. One of the things Islam has bastardized and appropriated is Jesus. Actually, arguing that “Jesus is not in the Quran,” as you did, only lets Muzzies (Buttlims I most prefer to call them because they pray with their asses in the air, thus demonstrating that Muslims can’t even get prayer “right”) off the hook in this specific regard.
Don’t EVER let Buttlims off the hook. So, reconsider.
WESTPAC Spy says
Dude, you need to recalibrate your sarcasm meter. This guy Haroon Moghul says Christians don’t have a monopoly on Jesus and I say, “What do you mean we don’t have a monopoly on Jesus? He’s not even in your Quran. You have some Issa guy, not Jesus. Knock yourself out.”
That’s ,my opening gambit. He’s not appropriating anything. And, no, I don’t let them off the hook.
gravenimage says
Muslims certainly try to appropriate both Judaism and Christianity, WESTPAC Spy. The Qur’an is full of perversely ugly reimaginings of Jewish prophets and of Jesus.
Muhammed did this at first to try to lure Jews and Christians to accept him as the final prophet–when few did, he used this to claim these figures for Islam.
We don’t have to accept these figures to see that this is what Islam is doing.
Wellington says
Uh-huh, dude. Well then, who is the guy mentioned in Sura 4 who “did not die, was not crucified?” And who was the guy in the Koran born of a virgin? You really think that Muzzies were referring to some other person? Hugh Fitzgerald, just the other day here in an article at JW, asserted that Jesus is mentioned 27 times in the Koran. Care to dispute Fitzgerald here, that he got it wrong too?
Jesus IS in the Koran and saying he is not is: 1) not true; and 2) cuts Islam a break.
Again, reconsider because right now I have to put you, respecting this particular matter, in the clueless category.
WESTPAC Spy says
If I’m not making myself plain enough I am expressing contempt for Haroon Moghul’s claim. He doesn’t have Jesus. He has the cheap counterfeit Issa. And I hope the two of them will be very happy together.
WESTPAC Spy says
On second thought if you didn’t catch on to what I was saying it’s probably not a good method of argumentation. I will make myself clearer in the future. Jesus is Lord and fully God. And the counterfeit plastic dashboard Issa of Islam is not.
Wellington says
I don’t deny that Islam distorts Jesus, as it distorts so much, but distorting something or someone is very different from what you alleged, to wit, “He’s not even in your Quran.”
At best you obfuscate, at worst you yourself distort matters. Oh yeah, reconsider.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Forgive the interjection.
It occurs to me that the NT does have a category for a “Jesus” who is not actually “Jesus”:
“For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.” Matt 24:24
“For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.” 2cor11:4
I see both your points of view here WPC and W. From the WPC’s perspective it is enough to say that the koran does not have Jesus in it. From W’s perspective, it is imprecise to say only that.
What WPC means is that the koran does not have the true Jesus, but has a false Jesus.
W would prefer a more universally understood manner of expression, to avoid any distraction from the thing we all agree on, namely that the koran is lying.
I’m sure this is not news to anyone, but i just wanted to type it out to make sure that i understood the issue. 🙂
awake says
Islam and Christianity are 100% mutually exclusive. The Mohammedan claims otherwise in their unholy book was merely interwoven to deceive, and ultimately subdue, Christians.
gravenimage says
So true, Awake. And good to see you posting again.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“We also believe Jesus was the word and spirit of God, and will someday return to fill a volatile world with goodness.”
The usual cultish redefinition of words so that outsiders can be fooled into thinking they mean the same thing.
Islam in no way believes that Christ was the Word or Spirit of God in the way Christians use those terms.
To claim that the islamic ‘jesus’ is going to come back to spread goodness is pure deception, since this muslim knows very well that Christians will understand him to mean something very different from how the koran defines the return of their isa, and the kind of ‘goodness’ he is supposed to effect.
If this guy is so upfront and such a nice guy, why is is lying so badly here?
Why doesn’t he just tell the truth – that the islamic isa will come back to kill anyone who has been worshipping him, along with breaking all the crosses and killing the pigs?
Of course, he is unable to speak the ‘truth’ he has been decieved into believing, because then he’s have to show his true colors to everyone, and that wouldn’t if the current stage of islamic takeover. He knows they don’t have enough strength yet to start being more forceful with their beliefs, and so will happily continuing lying without a flicker of shame. Just like satan, who started islam in the first place.
Wellington says
Seconded.
Isn’t it refreshing, even inspiring, LeftisruiningCanada, when an agnostic like myself, and a Christian such as you, can be on the same page completely about a religious matter?
Reason for hope I would argue. Take good care and a Happy New Year and all that good stuff (N.B., Islam, as I have discerned it, is devoid of good stuff. Totally. Yep, there’s no “there” there, no “good stuff” there.).
I say agnostics and Christians unite in opposition to Islam, preferably while drinking a fine Canadian or American beer—- or even two.
LeftisruiningCanada says
For sure Wellington, and i think it shows that honest inquiry will tend to lead to broadly similar conclusions when based on a desire to look at evidence.
We can agree that the islamic isa is not the NT Jesus, because the texts do actually contain truth statements which can be taken hold of and compared. It’s not just our opinion or something we “feeeeeel”.
Most of us, agnostic, atheist or christian, all pretty much want the same things, and are for most part willing to let each other go about their own business. That’s what the West, particularly the USA, is about, and which is why, as you say, we all need to oppose the greatest external threat it faces.
Happy New Year and same to you. The beer or two sounds just fine 🙂
gravenimage says
Yes–in Islam,”goodness” includes the bloody eradication of all Christians.
Ren says
Muslims, keep on honoring Jesus and despising Muhammad.
gravenimage says
They are not really honoring Jesus, Ren–just the nasty figure of “Isa”, who is very different.
CRUSADER says
SNEAKY way of infusing Islam as a normalizing phenomenon to bridge over into….
More scheming and underhanded subterfuge by Islamists and Muslim Brotherhood acolytes.
Well, there is much to refute their notion.
Robert Spencer certainly laid all the differences out in his book,
“Not Peace But A Sword”
( note this video clip: )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnTODI7nfxw
Islam links to violence and subjugation. Serious obstacles to any similarities which may exist or be perceived between Islam and Judeo-Christianity!
Speaking of links.
I think I will grill some sausage links and bacon strips!!!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
CRUSADER says
What a bunch of nitwits.
Muslims affirming Jesus?
Well, that may be so, to the extent to which they go.
But, Muslims have taken the CHRIST out of Jesus Christ.
Muslims have taken the Tri out of Trinity….leaving it just “nity”
(Nity , ironically , is urbanly-defined as a person who wishes that they had a definition for.)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Z says
They don’t believe he is the son of God. Therefore they have no right to celebrate.
Benedict says
Muslims honor Jesus the same way you honor a general by calling him a captain. –
BTW, Christians also honor Muhammad as a prophet i.e. a false prophet and they even honor him as “the eel of of the prophets.”
Ronnie Lee says
It really is quite simple. And, I’d really like to ask good ol’ Pope Francis about this to get his opinion. Christ was very specific. He said I am the Alpha and the Omega. The first and the last. No one gets to the father but through me. That’s about as direct a statement as he ever gave on anything. Then, you have the Quran, which states that God didn’t have a son, and there is no trinity. Therefore only one logical conclusion can be drawn by Christians. Either Jesus was simply lying when he declared himself the son of God, and the conduit through which we all must flow to get to God, or Muhammad of Islam is a false prophet. Simple as that. So, Francis, which is it?
Lu says
I agree … simple as that. Should be a clear and simple answer from the Pope, right? Unless there are other allegiances he is engaged in. Unless there are other agendas he is involved in.
I like the simple theological argument even though I am irreligious. You should write a co-op in some mass media. They would LOVE to publish it … How about NBC?
R Russell says
Islam is just trying to spread out the net to try to catch Americans who don’t know any better. (A bit like the cults do)
They have been using adverts to do the same – all across the States.
No doubt some will be taken in, but it is also an opportunity to get out there and tell everyone about the Jesus who died for their sins and who is YHWH by nature.
https://counterjihadnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/ab.png
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/88/83/e58883b7dcb74f99a660d410ae94755e.jpg
http://3m7ajlsrzj92lfd1hu16hu7vc.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/jesus-is-a-muslim-billboard-660×350-1481876880.jpg
https://i0.wp.com/www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Orlando-WhyIslam-billboard.jpg
abad says
Not quite.
The Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of the Quran are two very different people.
Guess which one Moslems “honor”.
Yep, the Jesus of the Quran.
Logic 101
gravenimage says
+1
R Russell says
abad,
Please read my comment again.
The please think carefully and unpick it.
1. They are targeting people who do not know any better. What would people who do not KNOW any better be in? Deception.
2. The cults. There are 2 basic differences – basic difference between the cults and genuine Christianity. a. They do not believe in the unique YHWH nature of Jesus, the second person of the trinity
b. They have ‘extra scriptures’ which supersede the Bible.
“……but it is also an opportunity to get out there and tell everyone about the Jesus who died for their sins and who is YHWH by nature.”
I wrote, THE JESUS, not the same Jesus the Muslims have. We need to tell about THE Jesus who died for their sins and who is YHWH by nature.
The Islamic ISA, (ESAU as Ibrahim Itace Muhammed sometimes explains) is not by NATURE YHWH and he did not die on the cross.
Put ‘Jesus’ in Google Translate and ask for the Arabic translation. You will get, Yasue, not ISA or ESAU.
It is obvious from the character of both persons that they cannot be the same person.
We can have 2 friends by the same name eg Samuel. It is only when we unpick who they are that we can differentiate between them.
The cults get members by deception. Islam seeks converts by deception – see the adverts I supplied. Eve was deceived and so we have to guard against being deceived. Thus we need to tell others about THE Jesus who is YHWH by nature and who died for our sins.
gravenimage says
Haroon Moghul: Christians don’t have a Christmas monopoly on Jesus. Muslims honor him too
…………………………..
What, exactly, do Muslims honor about the Muslim “Jesus” (really, “Isa”)?
They honor his telling Christians they are damned to hell if they consider Jesus the Savior, and–even more telling–honor his greatest role in the last days, where Muslims believe that he will slaughter all the Christians.
More:
As Christians everywhere await Christmas, a wider awareness of these spiritual and theological similarities might make Islam seem less alien. Instead of something weird and menacing, what if Americans viewed it as a belief system with deep roots here in the U.S., and a lot in common with our nation’s largest religion?
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Sure–how can a vision of Jesus mass murdering Christians be seen as weird or menacing?
Of course, Haroon Moghul hope we don’t know about this. Grimly, few Westerners do.
gravenimage says
Spot on, Jay Boo.
Ray Jarman says
Back in the 1990s a Christian missionary who was also working for a NGO stated the major difference between the two religions by stating, “In Islam one dies for Muhammad while in Christianity Christ died for our sins.” It should also be pointed out that it seems that for Muslim males it is all about sex in the after life where even small boys will be available to them. In Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant denominations, heaven is a place where all strive to be clean enough to enter because no unclean thing can enter, Jesus Christ will cleanse the righteous through his atonement where we will still be performing service.
Remember911 says
Yup, Christians don’t have a monopoly on Jesus, but if you draw a cartoon of Mo, we will put you to death.
“What’s mine is mine . . . what’s yours is also mine.”
gravenimage says
True.
Lydia Church says
Firstly, YES, Christians DO have THE monopoly on Jesus.
Reason #1: The Biblical Jesus is the true Jesus, and He is the JudeoChristian Jesus.
Reason #2: The muslim Jesus (Isa) is a false Jesus because it is not the same as the Jesus in #1, contradictions exist, too many to list here.
Reason #3: You must COME to Jesus to HAVE Jesus and thus He has you. You must come to Jesus on HIS terms, not your own. It is easy… repent, confess you are a sinner, accept that Jesus died for your sins and rose again, ask Him to come into your heart by the Holy Spirit and surrender to God your full being and you will be born again, know that you are saved by grace through faith in Christ and the only way is by Jesus’ death on the cross that you can be saved, no other religion can save you, and then read the Bible all the way through but you will be saved when you turn to Him, it can be done in one sitting privately without interruptions… you may receive the full Holy Spirit baptism at that time or later (I did at that time but many get it later). Easy! The hard part is humbling oneself and admitting that God’s Word is right. ( :
Secondly, this all smacks of their ‘one world religion’ and its ‘common ground’ which is meaningless. They may all have an intersection with the word ‘god’ in that overlap, but all their notions contradict one another and are totally exclusive from each other. There is no justification for ‘joining’ them, not even for the ‘common good,’ because God must be honored first and joining them only creates an abomination with the holy and the profane, and at that point the holy departs anyway. Don’t fall for the ‘all is one’ lie of the new age paganism being packaged to the masses at an increasing rate. It’s all part of the end times delusion.
Thirdly, this account is wrong:
“Gabriel, an otherworldly visitor, arrives in the form of a human being to tell Mary that she is pregnant with child. But not just any child; this is the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary and messenger to the children of Israel.”
The errors are as follows: 1. Gabriel is an angel, and nowhere does it say he arrives looking like a human. 2. He does not arrive to ‘tell Mary that she already is pregnant,’ but he informs her that she WILL BECOME PREGNANT. Huge difference. 3. He is the only true messenger above the position of prophet, priest, or king as Messiah, and it is to ALL THE WORLD, not just to Israel.
Fourthly, this line: “Islam shouldn’t feel out of place in the least.” is wrong. It should, in the sense that it is not ‘like’ Christianity, there is no ‘common ground,’ and in the sense that he means it (intersectionality religiously), a resounding: NO!
Fifthly, he goes on to talk about other religions embracing Jesus. Many false religions do this, but they have a FALSE Jesus too! You don’t have Jesus unless you have the Biblical Jesus. Period. You can’t sculpt Him into your own idolatrous image.
Sixth, this line:
“a belief system with deep roots here in the U.S., and a lot in common with our nation’s largest religion” oh, so now they are trying to dig up some roots that simply are not on American soil! And no, it has nothing in common with Christianity because their notions of Jesus are all false. Obvious ploy at the one world religion (conglomeration of combined major religions, of which true Christianity can have no part).
Seventh, Obama was a muslim by his own words that he uttered regarding mohammed. Google for yourself.
Eighth, Mary was not a single mom, Joseph was engaged to her and she conceived by the Holy Spirit and then they got married and they did not engage in consummation until after Jesus was born. But she was not a ‘single mom’ without husband. God is the Father of Jesus but Joseph was her husband in life.
Ninth, it is no small matter as he goes on admitting the distinctions. If your Jesus is not God the Son, it is not the right Jesus, so they can talk all day and night about having ‘Jesus in common,’ but they do not.
gabi says
Well said, bravo! And TENTH, 12 prophets of the Old Testament announced Jesus – the Savior, Son of God (see Isaiah, Osea, Maleahi, David, Daniel, Micah, Genesis, Deuteronomy, St, John the Baptizer, Zacharias and so on) and Virgin Mary was also announced as Virgin (not woman, as muslims&co pretend) and Mother of Savior by Varlaam, Solomon, Gideon, Moses, James, Ezekiel, David and so on. Muslims pretend muhammad was announced by 2-3 prophets – well, ALL the prophets saw the Beast fighting against Son of Man aka Jesus, and what do we see today?? Unfortunately, the muslims don’t read Bible, but only their quran dictated in sleep, in night, by somebody who pretended to be Angel Gabriel – or, ALL monks warn us about discernment in the difference of spirits / devils: you must NOT believe what you think you see in the first time as a miracle / divine vision, because you may be mistaken. You have to pray to God and wait, as Virgin Mary waited though She has Angel Gabriel in front of her, at Announciation. So… more and more Biblical instruction for Christians, to discern the Truth in a whole ocean of Lies!
P.S. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2018!
LeftisruiningCanada says
Jesus has the monopoly on everybody and everything 😀
Sharyati says
Well this concept is called reverse absorption or inculturization where the icons of the dominant culture are slowly and steadily ingested by an invading memetic “virus” without the host knowing. This is used in situations where the “virus” is not powerful enough for an open confrontation it v. A strategy typically used by christian missionaries here in India as shown here http://indiafacts.org/masters-manipulations-christianitys-perception-manipulation-vis-vis-hindu-groups-1/.
They claim many times that Hindus dont have a monopoly over Krishna as he too was born in a clan of Gopikas or cowherds just like Jesus was born in a manger blah blah blah… But for the horrific consequence of an Islamic takeover of the west, this seems to me almost poetic justice, unstoppable effects of karma
LR says
“In Europe, the fear of Islam helped drive the resurgence of the far-right, even as it helped push Britain out of the European Union.”…
I don’t excuse Nazi skin head idiots…But I can kind of understand people’s fears Haroon….Watching their co citizens getting blown up, sliced and diced, and crushed by a trucks wheels while raving maniacs are yelling Allahu Akbar just might make people a wee fearful of Islam…Do you have any concern for the murder and mayhem Europeans have experienced in the name of Allah, after being so generous in opening their countries to so many needy, desperate Muslim refugees’?
janwoG says
I do not see that Isa (Jesus inQuran) plays an important role in daily Muslim devotion, except to deceive naive Christians.