Great! Where, when and how are Muslims reciprocating? What’s that? They aren’t? Of course. “Interfaith dialogue” consists wholly and solely of Infidels making concessions to Muslims, never, ever the other way around. Soon the place will be a mosque anyway, so it hardly matters. Britain is finished.
“Church allowed to remove pews to allow Muslim events – after court challenge over plans,” by Laura Mowat, Express, December 23, 2017 (thanks to Milad):
A CHURCH has been given the go ahead to remove its pews so they can welcome local Muslim community events.
St Thomas Werneth in Oldham has been given the green light to remove the pews so it is able to hold more events within the wider community.
In a ruling last month, Geoffrey Tattersall QC said the church would be allowed to remove the pews as the proposals would have “major public benefit outweighing any harm resulting from the loss of the pews”.
The area, which is close to Manchester, has an 88 per cent non White-British population.
Its website encouraged people of all nationalities to attend the services.
They said: “We usually have at least six nationalities represented in the congregation on a given Sunday.
“Whatever your background you can be assured of a warm welcome to our services and our Parish life.”
The Chancellor of the Diocese of Manchester said: “Its continuing presence is important in enabling social cohesion and contact between local Muslims and Christians.
“The purpose of the re-ordering of the Church is to open up the Church for community use, as part of its service and mission to the mainly Muslim community in the parish and to enable the wider community to share its heritage.
“The Church wishes to be a place of welcome, growth and engagement for the local communities.”
The Venerable Cherry Vann, the Archdeacon of Rochdale said there was significant interfaith work going on in the area and there was a “genuine desire among some of the Muslim leaders to build bridges and work in partnership with the Church.
“Moreover there is clearly some goodwill towards the church in the (at present) largely Muslim community in Werneth and it is important that the church has the flexibility and capacity to exercise a ministry of hospitality to those living in the parish through a variety of community-based activities.”…
Rob says
Well then I think we should request that Christian worship be allowed in Mosques. Imagine that; Muslims allowing the open declaration of God in the flesh. I just see it happening some how.
Lydia Church says
Just some Christmas cheer:
Go to youtube and listen to…
1. O Holy Night
2. Hallelujah; Christmas version (modified from Leonard Cohen’s version, of which there is also a lovely Easter version)
For #1, listen to the lyrics very carefully. Or better yet, I will insert them below:
“O holy night, the stars are brightly shining
It is the night of the dear Savior’s birth
Long lay the world in sin and error pining
Till He appeared and the soul felt its worth
A thrill of hope, the weary soul rejoices
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn
Fall on your knees, o hear the angel voices
O night divine, o night when Christ was born
O night divine, o night, o night divine
Truly He taught us to love one another
His law is love and His Gospel is peace
Chains shall He break for the slave is our brother
And in His name all oppression shall cease
Sweet hymns of joy in grateful chorus raise we
Let all within us praise His holy name
Christ is the Lord, o praise His name forever
His power and glory yet the poor proclaim
His power and glory yet the poor proclaim
Fall on your knees, o hear the angel voices
O night divine, o night when Christ was born
O night divine, o night, o night divine!”
Now THAT is the religion of peace!
Sing it loud and proud my fellow brethren!
But the melodies are moving so listen to them both.
BC says
The munshkins fall on their knees a lot also.
R Russell says
BC
Yes, but it provable that their God is a different God from the Christian God
pragmatist says
Look at the magnificent rendition by the American tenor Jan Peerce on You Tube
Westman says
Even as an Agnostic, I can see clearly that Islam is a demerit system that begins with being the “best of all people” – excluding all other faiths – and ending, without martyrdom, in an unknown status if not crucified for some infraction that offends a sadistic Allah. It was born in brutishness, stealing a perversion of the Old Testament, and remains brutal. It makes sex objects of women, forever.
Christianity is an ideology that builds the lowliest to the status of “good people”, fit to associate peacefully with all others, whether believers or non-believers. It is a faith of inclusion where the other is to be regarded with the same value as one’s self (unless they act as enemies) and has no conditional greeting. It offers a gift, the good news, that sins have been paid by a loving Christ who freely offers that gift for anyone who will repent(change for the better) and live properly as a Christian.
The “sick man of Europe” foundered while Europe’s Christianity laid the foundation for the intellectual freedom that led to our modern world. It seems that wealth and peace has strangled Christianity and good morals in the crib for much of the last two generations of Europe and the US. Ingratitude and selfishness have become the new morals. Perhaps this is partly caused by obtaining opulent conditions, expected in heaven, while still living on this planet.
No one, after careful consideration, would conclude that Islam is anything but degenerative to existing systems. It takes over brains and then the bodies of humans and makes them perform for its benefit; using some even to death. There is a name for such organisms.
The Christian is given the gift to choose and instructed that, he/she is that he might have joy, and have it more abundantly.
So Merry Christmas to all, believers and non-believers, who see the beauty and value of Christianity to our nations.
Karen says
Thank you, Westman!
LeftisruiningCanada says
Nicely put Westman. Merry Christmas 🙂
gravenimage says
Thank you, Westman! Happy Holidays!
Ħabbartek says
Westman. So you reckon that Islam makes sex objects of women?! God created men and women to be ‘sexual objects’ and for obvious reasons. Propagation of the population, maybe? One problem, however. Human sexuality is also about sexual frustration. In a patriarchal society, then as now, the male is the superior gender. His the role to provide for his family, and power to defend his community. Yet, in spite of his strength and dominance, he has one weak spot. His desire for women and woman has the ace card. The strong man is reduced to jelly at the whiff of a woman as she passes by. This was unacceptable in societies dominated by the male and what he stands for. We cannot afford to have the male in thrall of a woman’s charms that she uses at every turn. So what to do?! Suppress the female, that is what needs to be done. And Islam does this to perfection.
BC says
Could Mushkins be asked to stand up and kneel for prayer? Of course not that would be Islamofauxbic. Always the Muslim has to be accommodated. menahwile on eis not even allowed to take a Bible into Saudi arabia much less have a church there. I speak as an atheist BTW
Jayell says
“Always the Muslim has to be accommodated..” Or so muslims think, apparently. But not Lancashire County Council, who recently voted democratically to ban halal meat in their schools. So the muslims stamped their feet and threw their toys out of the pram (as usual) and then threatened to boycott the school meals in the New Year. When a lot of people responded with ‘Good!!’ and the Council didn’t budge, the muslims (through one of their boring array of ‘councils’, or ‘committees’, or ‘commissions’, or whatever sounds suitably pompous) decided to take the Lancashire County Council to court because it “didn’t consult them”. It never apparently occurred to them that Lancashire County Council, as the properly elected democratic body in control of the State schools in the area, has always had the power to make these decisions on behalf of its constituents with or without any specific process of extra consultation beyond its proper democratic remit. As it happens, the Council was (I believe) responding to widespread disquiet amongst the vast non-muslim majority in the area after a revelation that their non-muslim children were being fed with these foodstuffs without their knowledge or consent, which they clearly considered repugnant. I sincerely hope that, when this matter eventually goes to court, it will be categorically thrown out; because if it is not, and if there is so much as a hint that these muslims have any right whatever to over-ride the authority of a properly appointed democratic body or the wishes of the non-muslim majority, there should be all hell to pay. I, nor a whole host of others within the UK, cannot understand the apparently appalling bigoted arrogance of a minority group such as the muslims to assume some kind of right to disregard or presume to challenge the rights and opinions of others, particularly where the ‘others’ constitute a large majority and their wishes expressed and enacted through due process of established democracy. This matter has now received full national media coverage and some commentators have been suggesting that Lancashire’s actions should be copied nationally. I predict the beginnings of serious repercussions if this matter is not resolved in a manner satisfactory for the majority within the United Kingdom.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Yes, Jayell, i was reading about that yesterday. The tone that you in the muslim press releases etc is simply awful. They think they rule the place already, and speak as offended masters who have not been given their rightful place of honor. Ugh, the arrogance.
If the LCC cave on this, there will be much rejoicing in the islamic neighborhoods, with much associated allahu akbaring to celebrate another victory over dar al harb.
Ħabbartek says
The reality is that the UK allows free practice of ANY religion. Muslims know this and they are taking advantage of the fact. It is the same with that other great human endeavour, the taking in of refugees. Now anyone wanting to access Europe, all they have to do is claim persecution, war in their own country. And we have to take on board any claim to such which has to be an administrative nightmare at least. And of course they keep coming. What will it take the Authorities to realise that taking in asylum seekers is all very well. But at what stage will it become obvious that a boat can only take so many people before it flounders. And when that happens, who is going to help the asylum seekers. Which is only worth anything as long as the Western powers-that-be are in charge. When the present system, shaky as it may be, is gone, then what?!
LeftisruiningCanada says
” But at what stage will it become obvious that a boat can only take so many people before it flounders”
Yes, it’s a good analogy for sure.
If sinking ships and the resulting lifeboats were run as the EU is, there would never be any survivors.
J D S says
How stupid can they get…..bringing Satan right into their church…Not that Satan isn’t visiting many churches today in many different forms.
God have mercy on us . In retrospect …Muslims need to be in our churches…accepting the savior of the world.
Save Europe says
It’s Oldham. A vile s***hole.
Ħabbartek says
If you give up on Oldham because it’s a shithole, where will it stop? At least it’s a Christian shithole. .
abad says
Not a bad idea.
Install some pews.
Can you imagine Moslems trying to prostrate themselves with pews in the way? Whack their heads into the back of a pew – a few more skull dents – lol
Ħabbartek says
Pews or no pews, don’t forget that the church has to be aligned with Mecca because Muslims must have their arse pointing in the opposite direction to Mecca.
StellaSaidSo says
The Venerable Cherry Vann speaks fluent SJW jargon (‘significant interfaith work’, ‘community-based activities’, but is yet to acquaint herself with terms like TAQIYYA and DHIMMITUDE.
What a joke Christianity has become at the hands of such traitors.
gravenimage says
And when this Church has once been used for Muslim worship it is considered a Mosque.
I doubt these foolish Christians grasp that.
StellaSaidSo says
Exactly. The arse-in-the-air ritual is not primarily about worship – it is a territorial claim.
gravenimage says
True.
jack says
The Venerable Cherry Vann speaks fluent SJW and LGBTI jargon. Sorry Cherry, watch out for the LGBTI – ISLAM train crash.
Karen says
She never gave an example of what she meant by her “hospitality” mission or “community activities”. Are these popcorn-and-movie nights? Pancake suppers? I’m guessing not – sounds like she is just trying to replicate the mosque environment inside the sacred space of a church.
Jayell says
The big joke here is the use of the word ‘community’. They’ll use it in the singular when they want to kid us (and themselves) that the human population in areas like Oldham is some sort of nice, homogenous ‘community’ as in the good old days. Then, when they want to blow the ‘enriching’, ‘progressive’, ‘multicultural’ trumpet, they’ll changse to the plural ‘communities’ and they’ll think that we haven”t noticed the discrepancy. Maybe they hsven’t even noticed it themselves because they’re a bit short on intellectual integrity or just plain thick as three shorf planks.
Ħabbartek says
It seems like the clergy of the CofE need a few sessions with a psychotherapist. They sound so naive and gullible at best, and totally incapable of any lateral thinking at worst.
Yaffle says
Surpise surprise – a female clergyperson is behind this.
Much more of this to come, including in London, where a new SJW-leaning female bishop has just been appointed.
Karen says
I’ve never been opposed to women clergy. Having said that, so many of them are radical fools.
gravenimage says
There are lots of male dhimmis, as well. Her being female is not the problem.
Ħabbartek says
Elsewhere I have read of a feminist(member of FEMEN in Italy)who, bare-breasted snatched the figure of Jesus from a public Nativity Crib. Elsewhere, a Ghanaian in Milan scaled a Christmas tree and tried to snatch the cross at the top. The female’s gesture appears to be against the Church’s oppression of women. The Ghanaian’s belief system may by anything or none, but his gesture and her gesture are somewhat connected. I bet the Ghanaian will give her support the minute he sees her tits.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Why would you ignore islam?
M says
Social cohesion? With supremacists bent on either converting or killing anyone who isn’t one of them? How? Not possible. Why? It is suicide to allow Islam to creep inch by inch towards making civilized places into sharia hell holes.
Social cohesion…. What is the goal? Erasing every culture that “accommodates” them while they laugh at what suckers we are for letting them?
The give nothing back. Their agenda is takeover not cooperation.
And if they “welcomed” filthy infidels into their mosques for a PR stunt who would want to go? To hear them lie that FGM isn’t widespread and headbags mean modesty not subjugation? To hear them lie about their book calling for the destruction of gays Jews and Christians??!
Islam is a death cult, totally at odds with and unsuitable for any free society.
JawsV says
I wouldn’t enter a mosk. The lair of the enemy.
jan sobieski says
What disturbs me is all those priests who are apparently completely ignorant about the koran, the founding of Islam, the truth about Mohammad, a knowledge of Islam’s history with adjoining infidel states. How is this possible? The bible warns of false prophets and wolves in sheep’s clothing, but somehow, islam is not to look ed at critically. The Christian church is chocked full of these blind priests.
LeftisruiningCanada says
All true, but all so terribly racist if you happen to be in the UK when you say it. Or think it.
jayell says
They trot out that ‘social cohesion’ mantra like some dumb zombie brainwashed into some kind of neo-Marxist-Common-Purpose-pie-in-the-sky-Cloud-Cuckoo-Land cult even though the evidence stares them in the face that it’s at best a stupid excuse for a totally unrealistic fairy-tale social philosophy and at worst a brain-dead recipe for guaranteed communal destruction. Yet, like wilfully deluded, pig- ignorant new-age alchemists, they battle on regardless, convinced that they can blend a load of alien antediluvian dross in with the proven local metal and get some kind new utopian gold, whilst any idiot with their eyes open can see that it’s just an evil toxic mess that’s going to explode at any minute. And as we all go down the social abyss with the mohammedan scavengers circling overhead, these quack high priests of the Brave New Order will be sitting in their ivory towers inventing myths about wicked ‘right-wing extremists’ who desecrated their rose-tinted delusion of a spurious ‘Paradise’. Cretins!
The idiot politically-correct female Archdeacon here just proves how much the C of E has lost the plot here when she fails to spot the difference between ‘many different nationalities’ (of CHRISTIAN, I presume) using the church for its proper purpose as opposed to adherents of an ideology that embodies a criminal evil that the church is meant to oppose. But that wouldn’t matter to Her Majesty’s Department of God, which is now so desperate to keep the punters coming in that they’ll change the show to suit any old body.
roger woodhouse says
Brilliant jeyell.COE ‘sold to the highest bidder’
Ħabbartek says
jayell. Islam is stuck in the seventh century and I mean stuck. The veiling of women has nothing to do with modesty but rather it is to stop men being tempted, ironically, by something that is totally god-given. Powerful men must not be distracted and their power undermined by such a filthy thing as a female’s ace card. Muslims claim that Islam is scientific. Islam built great mosques(mathematics and so on). But then great buildings were built by civilizations 1000s of years older then Islam. The harsh reality is that, if they need an aspirin, they have to import it from the West. Their oil would still be under the sands were it not for Western know-how. Ecc. ecc. ecc. With such ignorance and such draconian laws about anything, the world that Islamist will inherit will not have much of a future. Besides the world is not made up solely of Christians and Islamists. What about the others? How will they be treated by Muslims? Will an Islamic planet become a sort of Garden of Eden? I don’t think so. As we say(Muslims please note), be careful what you pray for, for it may happen.
Kay says
Certainly they could have found another building to host community activities.
Where will Christ crucified be proclaimed?
LeftisruiningCanada says
I don’t know anything about this congregation, but from some churches i’ve visited, Christ crucified for your sins may not have been proclaimed there for a while.
“The Church wishes to be a place of welcome, growth and engagement for the local communities.”
Depending on the strength of the congregation, it may not be long until the new use of the church as a ‘community center’ ends up turning it into a defacto mosque. It is to be hoped that the Christians running it know what they are doing, and won’t be afraid to set limits. And then enforce them.
Yokel says
@LeftisruiningCanada on Dec 23, 2017 at 8:01 pm
I don’t know anything about this congregation, but from some churches i’ve visited, Christ crucified for your sins may not have been proclaimed there for a while.
Agreed.
Depending on the strength of the congregation, it may not be long until the new use of the church as a ‘community center’ ends up turning it into a defacto mosque.
One only has to look at the fate of the “Multifaith prayer room installed in so many places over the past decade or so. There is only one “Multifaith” that may worship in there these days … Islam.
It is to be hoped that the Christians running it know what they are doing, and won’t be afraid to set limits. And then enforce them.
Having permitted it once, there is no going back. As noted above in these comments, the waving of bums in the air is not prayer it is conquest and the church will forever after (in their minds) be Islamic property.
And no, they will not have the strength to set any limits because they will not understand the size of the problem.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Yeah, i was just going for a less pessimistic tone, when in reality you’re probably right.
AgainĦabbartek says
Naively, whoever it is is dreaming of creating a cohesive community where everybody lives peacefully side by side. This may seem possible locally, of course. I guess that this peaceful coexistence could be replicated nation-wide. Again, plausible. But in the end, the space will be used by people of religion and British congregations are getting less and less. The end result is clear to be seen by anyone with half a brain. The Church people may mean well, probably do, but they are being naive. Maybe they should consult with the Pope in Rome. Sadly, I have the feeling he would agree with them. Christianity is all about loving those who would screw you, turn the other cheek, and so on. Not today, vicar! Have another crumpet.
Manny says
What a disgrace. They have lost all sense of the sacred.
gravenimage says
True, Jay Boo.
WESTPAC Spy says
They lost all sense of the sacred long ago. From what I know about the Episcopal church her, and from what I read about the Anglican church in Britain, they’re largely over the whole Christ thing. And they’d laugh at you if you suggested they read their Bibles. They got over the whole scripture thing a long time ago.
The Anglican church keeps trying to think of ways to make themselves relevant. So they’ve gone all in on the environmental issues. So it’s OK to be a gay bishop in a committed gay relationship as long as you drive an electric car.
The more relevant they try to become, the more irrelevant they are. It’s why when most people in the UK get to the point of being tired of getting falling down drunk every Saturday night and think there has to be something more to life they convert to Islam. Because the Anglican has become a collection of left wing causes with basically secular administrators in clerical dress.
Here in the US the Episcopal bishop in Washington DC has accepted Muhammad as a legitimate prophet. No one who has read the Bible and believes it is in fact scripture could ever do that.
1 John 2
“21I have not written you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son can have the Father; whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.…”
Islam denies the deity of Christ, i.e. that He is the son of God. According to Islam it is beneath Allah’s dignity to have a son of any sort. Islam also violently rejects (literally) the two other central tenets of Christianity. His death on the cross and His resurrection.
The way things are going the only way Anglican churches are going to be “relevant” is if they remove all the pews and convert all of them to “community event halls” where not only Muslims can pray, but they can hold art shows and book fairs, etc. And I have the impression that will be just fine with all the post-Christian Anglican/Episcopal priests and bishops.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Agreed WESTPAC, Liberalism and unbelief have been the ruin of several denominations.
It’s not to say that there are no strong individual congregations within them, as there are, but on the whole they are as you say.
The Anglicans do have something which may hold back the tide for a while longer yet, and even turn it in the long run – the African churches. They are often to be found aghast at the statements and actions of their western brethren, and say so.
PABLO says
What part of “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me” that the leadership of this church does not understand?
R Russell says
Pablo
The Jesus of the Bible is not the Jesus, (Isa, Esau) of the Koran.
These apostate Christians seem to think they are the same person.
Thus the deceived Christians are allowing the Islam ‘Jesus’ into their churches unaware of a future time when the Muslim Jesus is commissioned with killing Christians left who have escaped the slaughter by the Muslims.
Unless there is a Christian Revival, our country is doomed.
We have new ‘hate crime’ laws being made which will mean someone only needs to say they are upset for someone to be charged. That means there will be no more carol singing or giving out of Christian literature. Just carrying a Bible potentially will upset someone and be a hate crime.
Think of Egypt or Pakistan to see the UK very soon.
Christians who are awake need to gather to pray and fast for our country. We need revival or we will get judgment.
AgainĦabbartek says
Are you saying that tolerance of religion/s will not apply anymore? And when Muslims get the upper hand, will they not be required to be tolerant of others? But by then the laws of the land will have been changed beyond recognition. Sharia Law will rule. And even decent, law-abiding Muslims will be reduced to a pitiable one-dimentional state.
AgainĦabbartek says
The only feasible way for a revived Christian Church in UK is for British Christians to get closer to the Church of their forefathers, get married in a regular way and have as many children as they can feed. This is the only way and I doubt it will gain popularity. The obvious deficit is not solely a British phenomenon. Even traditionl RC countries like Portugal and Italy have a very low birthrate.
Kepha says
Pablo, one of the big problems across Europe is liberalized churches that have abandoned the Gospel of Christ for a vapid “me-tooism” which goes along with every secular fad there is. It has lost the power to say No to any evil.
I also guess that the Anglican church in the article is one that has been so emptied by three generations of hearing no Gospel that it can only function if it rents its facilities to other groups.
Yokel says
@ PABLO on Dec 23, 2017 at 7:48 pm
What part of “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me” that the leadership of this church does not understand?
All of it. After two or three generations of Socialist indoctrination in all the schools and colleges, there is the very widely held view that all religions are the same, and they all provide equally valid pathways to the same god. Thus the only fight back at present is coming from the atheists, such as Pat Condell
Tricia Stuercke says
OK, 1st PROBLEM 1st: “The VENERABLE CHERRY VANN, ARCHDEACON…???”. I’m gonna go out on a limb & guess “CHERRY” is a FEMALE? Possibly Lesbian? Oh, Dear Jesus, please HAVE MERCY ON US ALL. THE MID & POST MUSLIM CONQUEST CHURCH APPARENTLY USED TO FINISH THEIR SUNDAY MASS WITH “LORD, SAVE US FROM THE WRATH OF THE MUSLIMS.” I’M THINKING WE NEED TO BRING THAT BACK RIGHT ABOUT NOW!
Walter says
A church Is a place for all to come and learn about Christ.
It is not the right of the Church to house Islam prayer or any other non Christian prayers
From what I have studied in history it would be better for all to convert to Orthodoxy that has been persecuted through history. Probably the Oriental Orthodox Church is probable closest to the original churches.
Donatist never mentioned much in history, but it played a big part in Church history but a word that came about was Traditiore, where betrayal, burning of scripture and replacing Bishops with others and that is how I see corrupt churches today
Yogi says
What do You expected??, They have Muslim Mayor in Londonistan ..,
AgainĦabbartek says
That is because London is overrun by Muslims who have a vote. Why else would London have a Muslim Mayor?
PRCS says
“Church allowed to remove pews to allow Muslim events – after court challenge over plans”
A failed lawsuit–apparently–brought by the Victorian Society.
“The Victorian Society claimed the removal of the pews could damage the church.
They said: “Individually the pews are not of major importance as objects in their own right. However, en masse, they make an important contribution to the character of the interior of the church.”
StellaSaidSo says
Not a lot of ‘social cohesion’ within the church ‘community’, then, eh. This dhimmi church prefers to ingratiate itself with Muslimes, rather than stand and defend its traditions. Church pews are not merely ‘important’, but ESSENTIAL to the character of the interior of a church.
Jesus wept.
gravenimage says
Yes–this also changes the historical character of this church.
gravenimage says
UK church removes pews so that it can host Muslim events
…………………………..
Who cares about tradition, Christian fellowship, or the comfort of the elderly and disabled?
Muslims need the floor space for arse-lifting to their homicidal deity.
What fools these dhimmis be!
Linde Barrera says
To gravenimage- Thank you for your comment about the floor space being cleared of pews so Islamists can worship their bloodthirsty god while their butt is in the air and their face is on the ground. ? I swear I was thinking the same thing! Merry Christmas to you and yours in sunny California, dear graven.
gravenimage says
Merry Christmas to you, too, Linde!
And it is not always so sunny here in California–no snow, but overcast and cold all today. 🙂
Thomas Kimball says
With every passing day I am more glad I live in America. Apparently stupidity has gone to seed in Europe! This world is looking more like a Twilight Zone episode with every passing day and every time I check jihad watch the headlines get more insane!
rubiconcrest says
Muslims sit in chairs for certain. It would not hurt one bit if they had to use a pew. They might find them very comfortable. What better way to show respect for other faiths?
StellaSaidSo says
Not slaughtering people of other faiths would be a good start!
LeftisruiningCanada says
“Muslims sit in chairs for certain”
It’s true.
I have seen them do that.
CogitoErgoSum says
Did they leave the baptismal font in place so they can baptize all the Muslim converts to Christianity that they plan on making? That is the plan, right? To lead others to Christ. Please tell me that is the plan. Otherwise, they are betraying their Master and helping spread the message of a false prophet.
D Austin says
Probably washing their feet and other parts in them.
Mark A. says
Can you spell “Dhimmi” boys and girls? I knew you could….
LeftisruiningCanada says
“The Venerable Cherry Vann, the Archdeacon of Rochdale said there was significant interfaith work going on in the area and there was a “genuine desire among some of the Muslim leaders to build bridges and work in partnership with the Church.”
We can be very sure there are some ‘muslims leaders’, or imams, as we sometimes call them, that are very interested in using a church of the kuffar. Soon after the first sewing circling is finished, you can bet there will be a heartfelt plee to use the place for a small muslim prayer group…just on friday evenings to be sure, now that wouldn’t be a problem would it Cherry?
6 Months later they’ll be in there, sex segregated, 5 times a day, demanding foot baths be installed, while in between head butt times the welfare assisted men will just hang around evil-eying everyone, especially the kuffar women, while plotting bloody jihad fi sabil allah.
It would be interesting to follow the development of this church, if it were possible. Might make a good case study.
“Moreover there is clearly some goodwill towards the church in the (at present) largely Muslim community in Werneth and it is important that the church has the flexibility and capacity to exercise a ministry of hospitality to those living in the parish through a variety of community-based activities.”…
How about evangelizing them with the Gospel of freedom in Christ Jesus? I hope that’s front and center, instead of just trying to make them see how nice a person you are by giving them tea and biscuits then letting them establish another islamic embassy, for free, inside your precious historical building.
Lydia Church says
Bingo.
Karen says
Bingo x 10.
D Austin says
Watch the screams of racist when you preach to them!
LeftisruiningCanada says
Those troubled by demons often scream when Jesus is mentioned.
Lydia Church says
“…you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed Me; what is this you have done? “Therefore I also said, I will not drive them out before you; but they will become as thorns in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you.'” Judges 2; 2-3
If God is not honored, this is what enters the land.
The churches were empty.
The people had all abandoned God.
A void is filled just as empty land is usurped by others.
Now the churches have been given over to the false god of islam.
They have made slaves out of the inhabitants just as invading Philistines had done with Israel when she did not obey and honor God.
It is no surprise actually.
But it is a tragedy!
mortimer says
DHIMMI THEOLOGY IS DUMMY THEOLOGY – Jewish and Christian theologians believe Muslim interfaith theology is actually dhimmi theology.
Interfaith dialogue between Christian clergy and Muslims is fond of the agenda-based theological fallacy called the ‘Abrahamic faiths’.
Jon Levenson, the Albert A. List Professor of Bible at Harvard’s Divinity School and Anglican theologian, Rev. Mark Durie, PhD. Both theologians examined the ‘Abrahamic faiths’ theory and found it unsubstantiated.
Quotes: (Levinson)…it is wrong to present Abraham as a unifying figure who transcends the differences among Christians, Jews, and Muslims. The progressive wings of Christianity as well as Judaism have a great deal invested in this reassuring claim… (the creators of the ‘Abrahamic faiths’ theory) have essentially invented another Abraham
Quote: (Mark Durie) “I have been tracing the origins of the concept of “Abrahamic faith” in reference to monotheistic dialogue. Its most important and influential promoter was a Lebanese Maronite priest, Youakim Moubarac, following in the footsteps of his teacher, Massignon, who regarded Islam as a faith of genuine revelation — and Muhammad as a prophet”.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“a Lebanese Maronite priest, Youakim Moubarac, following in the footsteps of his teacher, Massignon, who regarded Islam as a faith of genuine revelation — and Muhammad as a prophet”.
If anyone can explain to me how it’s possible to be a Christian while considering mo to be a true prophet, i’d like to hear it.
James says
I used to think Mo could in some sense be regarded as a prophet. That was before I learned a bit more about the Koran, and about how to interpret it. If one takes it simply as a sacred text, without any of the Muslim tradition of interpretation, it can seem much more benign than it seems really to be. It is not unduly difficult to see Mo as in some respects an Arab Moses.
If one looks at both characters from a religion-free POV, they are rather similar. Both are law-givers, both are leaders of their people, both are warriors, both had more than one wife, both are very greatly venerated as prophets by the peoples they formed, both did things that do not fit into a Christian ethic. The objections people make against the Moses of the OT share some ground with Christian objections to the Mohammed of the canonical Muslim sources.
From a Christian POV, Mo must have some sort of function in God’s Providence; everyone else does. Unless, of course, he is fictitious. A fair amount of the Koran, even from a Christian POV, can be treated as though it might conceivably be God-given. That there are difficulties in the Koran, is not, in principle, any more of a problem than that are difficulties in the Bible.
I don’t think it is impossible that Mo may, in good faith, have believed that he had a genuine prophetic mission. Though given some of what is in the Koran, one is allowed to wonder how long it was before less sincere motives entered in.
I don’t think he was a prophet, but neither do I think it is utterly and in every way unreasonable for a Christian to think that he may have been. One might adopt the view that the Koran contains far more “satanic verses” than Mo realised, while also believing that a fair amount of it is not unworthy of a genuine Prophet, even if it has no source in God.
In fairness to Mo and the Koran, I wonder how much would be left of the Biblical books if we applied to them the same sorts of test as we apply to the Koran.
LeftisruiningCanada says
To say that Moses is comparable to mohammad is big stretch imho. I’m not seeing a great deal in common. I do see something like a psycho in mohammad, with all his raping and beheading and such. His outlook on women and unbelievers is dreadful, obviously.
“From a Christian POV, Mo must have some sort of function in God’s Providence; everyone else does”
“Deceiver of Nations”, “Anti Christ” or one of the “Horseman” of the Apocalypse perhaps?
“A fair amount of the Koran, even from a Christian POV, can be treated as though it might conceivably be God-given.”
False prophets and demons alike are capable of mixing truth and lies. Just because something somewhere sounds nice, doesn’t exonerate the whole work.
“I don’t think it is impossible that Mo may, in good faith, have believed that he had a genuine prophetic mission.”
Many people have also genuinely thought that they heard god tell them to murder their children and kill the neighbors, but sadly they were mistaken.
“I don’t think he was a prophet, but neither do I think it is utterly and in every way unreasonable for a Christian to think that he may have been. ”
But the koran explicitly denies several, if not all, of the main doctrines of Christianity. It pours scorn and hatred upon Trinitarianism, says Christ was not crucified (which Paul states invalidates the whole thing), and denies His divinity, amongst others.
There seems no way to reconcile the two…
“In fairness to Mo and the Koran, I wonder how much would be left of the Biblical books if we applied to them the same sorts of test as we apply to the Koran.”
The Bible has been subjected to ten thousand times more scrutiny than the Koran ever has, and passes with flying colors. Historically, the Bible has withstood every question ever asked of it by every skeptic who ever asked, and continues to prove itself accurate every time an archaeologist turns up a new find. For years many doubted the existence of Pilot, until excavations quite recently turned up evidence of his rule. That’s one example that comes to mind just now.
The textual transmission of the NT is without doubt the most accurate and well attested ancient text there is.
The koran on the other hand cannot even be connected to mecca or Jerusalem with any certainty. Neither place is named in the text, and there is no written evidence to support that mohammad was even in either of those places for a hundred years after he died. Tom Holland is quite insistent on this.
Please feel free to be specific in applying the same sorts of tests to the Bible as the koran…..it’s a great way to see the stark difference between true and false religion, and has been a path into faith for more than a few.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Thanks for your thoughtful reply by the way, i do appreciate the interaction on this subject 🙂
CogitoErgoSum says
James, see 1 John, chapter 4 (it is only 21 verses long). For me verses 14-16 especially stand out. Muhammad fails this most important test. The difficulty with him is that he directs my attention away from Christ. As for the books of the Bible, they pass in that they direct my attention towards Christ, the Messiah, the Savior, the Redeemer, the fulfillment of the prophecies, the perfection of love and the bringer of mankind’s reconciliation with God.
Kay says
There is a “test” applied to all writings that tells what is included in the Bible and what is not included. It isn’t public opinion. Bible scholars, please help.
But in short, the false equivalence of religions might “sound nice” or push us to more scholarship than we have — yet it remains false.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Kay, i’m not quite sure what you are refering to, but there are two things to keep in mind.
So far as what the text of the NT should be, there is the vast horde of manuscripts, dating back to within 100 years or so of Christ’s death and resurrection. The originals were written earlier of course, but we don’t have those.
With regards to the books that should be included in the NT, the Canon, there are the same manuscripts, which show that the books we know as the NT have always been the accepted ones, and we also have various canon lists dating back to within 150-200 years after Christ’s death. It is generally accepted that these books were written by apostles, or by an amanuensis on their behalf. An apostle is defined as one who saw the resurrected Christ.
The text and the canon were not decided by either the church of rome or the council of nicea, as some are wont to say.
Im not sure if that’s what you were asking, but i can offer some links to trustworthy resources if you like.
D Austin says
Using your logic, that would make Mormon prophet Joseph Smith the most recent prophet. The same angel allegedly visited both Mo and Joe. And there are at least 80 similarities between Mo and Joe forming their own religion and life style.
gravenimage says
I read the Qur’an right after 9/11, and even without knowing about abrogation and other forms of Islamic interpretation found it horrifying.
gravenimage says
D Austin, Joseph Smith said, “I will be a second Mohammad”.
Luckily, Mormonism modified–Islam has not.
LeftisruiningCanada says
D Austin.
And even mohammad didn’t go so far in altering things as to insist that monotheism was the great lie he had come to undo…..King Follet discourse anyone?
Michael Copeland says
“Abrahamic faiths” ?
“It is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions such as “Christianity” and “Judaism” are acceptable…….”
Manual of Islamic Law, “Reliance of the Traveller” w.4.
Ibrahim in the Koran (60:4) is praised for his “excellent pattern” when he said:
“..between us and you enmity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone.”
ontheridge says
Evil, evil, evil! The whole world is going insane! What next? Do we just forego Christianity and worship the muslim god of evil? Did God say, worship Molech and Chemosh and Ashtoresh and I will bless you? NO!. God said that all who worship other ‘gods’ will be doomed to hell. What are they doing?
Champ says
they removed the pews so that they can introduce EVIL into this church? what an abomination!
Mirit says
You Christians have gone insane!!!
Orthodox Jews who pray in their Synagogue, would never ever let Muslims in their prayers.
Jews pray with their prayer book, written in Hebrew, and translated to the local language. They would never let Muslims in. It is a disgrace!
Kay says
It is a disgrace, as Christians here are commenting.
The only reason for Mohammedens to enter church is to come to know the Lord of Life. Historically any visitors would be excused before the deepest act of worship, consecration and communion.
There was an expectation to turn from evil and toward good.
Yokel says
@ Mirit on Dec 24, 2017 at 3:08 am
Orthodox Jews who pray in their Synagogue, would never ever let Muslims in their prayers.
But there are plenty of others who self identify as Jews who voted twice for Obama, and yet more who seek to undermine he State of Israel. (Glass houses!)
D Austin says
And those Jews who are not, but are of the Synagogue of Satan, stabbed Israel in the back by supporting Obama’s hatred of Israel and his Iran nuclear deal.
No Western Wall or weddings in Israel for those people at the present time. Too bad they can’t be marched off into a little slavery.
gravenimage says
I’m afraid some Jews are just as clueless as some Christians:
“Jewish people give Muslims key to their synagogue after town’s mosque burns down”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/victoria-islamic-centre-mosque-fire-texas-jews-give-key-synagogue-muslims-worship-gofundme-a7556331.html
This was in Texas.
Here’s a similar story from Ontario:
“Peterborough synagogue welcomes Muslims displaced by mosque arson”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/programs/metromorning/mosque-arson-1.3338909
Michael Copeland says
Unable to post comment: “Access denied by website firewall”.
Is Jihadwatch being blocked?
LeftisruiningCanada says
Far as i know, it is a service provided to protect JW from attack. Longest i saw it was about 20 minutes or so.
Michael Copeland says
The picture shows the school, St Thomas in Werneth, not the church.
According to a diocesan spokesman (in the Daily Mail) the school has no Christian pupils: it is 100 per cent muslim.
Population Replacement has happened at school level.
Michael Copeland says
Pictures of the church are at:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/896034/Church-St-Thomas-Werneth-Oldham-Manchester-pews-Muslims
Kay says
Wow! What a beautiful old church! How sad! How awful that people would destroy their own church!
Karen says
A very beautiful church, and very English.
D Austin says
Any wager on how long before Muslims start complaining about the EXPRESS news site logo of the Crusader and cross on his shield being racist, islamaphobic, and offensive to Muslims, and demand its removal?
gravenimage says
*Very* disturbing, Michael. Thank you for this information.
duh swami says
It’s not just Muslims invited in, It’s also Allah, the other god…The essence of Allah is unstable energy… Instability brings with it the condition that ‘anything can happen and usually does…Instability has no place in a Church…When a Church becomes unstable, it morphs into a mosque…To prevent this keep Allah out or do regular exorcisms…
MFritz says
Why not just remove all of the crosses and hand them over the keys?
Rotten Eye says
How many Englishmen does it take to change a light bulb?
Enough of this! says
The “Kumbaya” Lefties like to think it’s about give and take. But we’re always giving and they’re always taking. Enough!
jeanne kelly says
The dhimmis are doing everything they can to help the UK become a sharia state
Kingston-upon-Thames is the pre-Norman site where Saxon kings were crowned and the beautiful All Saints Church is a masterpiece of Saxon architecture.
Never-the-less the dummy dhimmis have decided that this Christmas the birth of Christ should be celebrated along with that of moHAMed.
The local muzlims are furious that their prophet should be seen as equal to Jesus.
Last year Glasgow Episscopalian cathedral invited a muzlim woman to read from the koran. The verses were carefully chosen as those which deny the divinity of Christ.
As if this wasn’t bad enough this was done on the feast of the Epiphany, the day that celebrates the divinity of Christ!
What’s wrong with these people?
FYI says
Ah yes! More of these Judas Priest xtians crawling out of the woodwork.
I suggest the “venerable” Cherry Deacon Venn take off his/her collar.
And burn it.
Like most dhimmiwit,Christless clergy today he/she is obviously unfamiliar with the anti-Christian teachings of the islamic god allah in his koran.
the koranic denial of Christ:-
koran 4 v 157
koran 4 v 171
koran 5 v 72-75
As allah says:-
“take not the Jews and Christians as friends” koran 5 v 51
So is it likely that mosques will be opening their doors to Christians?
CRUSADER says
What’s to be done, if the population of a town changes…..
?????
martin says
I wonder if there are any real christians that go to that church… evidence seems to say no of course.
Kay says
There may be some fledgling Christians but they are being led astray. It’d be interesting to hear how many truly faithful decided to leave. On the other hand, are there still churches faithful to Christ in the UK?
patriotliz says
I guess the owners of that Church are making “nice” w/ the Muslim invaders so that they can sell their Church to them for a good price since Christianity is dead.
Ricky says
True
Marie Theresa MacDonald says
Who is this dumbo of a Church authority to accomidate a religion that Does Not reciprocate and whose holy book encourages the slaughter of Christians and Jews ?
Sickening. Beelzibub is at work . But the HOLY SPIRIT Will and Must prevail.
Timothy says
Given all that Islam stands for, why would they want them in their church? They must be very forgiving and unknowing.
Karen says
Does this church and the Ven. Vann serve the local Christian population? She doesn’t seem too concerned about their needs.
What types of community activities is Vann planning on hosting in the church *sanctuary* that would require the removal of the pews? Usually community activities are held in the church’s adjacent rooms or basement, or even an adjacent building. The sanctuary is the dwelling of God and is sacred and reserved. I can only conclude that she is planning some kind of joint worship service with plenty of floor space for prayer mats. Does Vann think that Christianity and Islam are equivalent religions? If so, why not increase harmony and “cohesion” by simply becoming a mosque? If Christianity isn’t unique and distinct, then there is nothing worth preserving.
Thinking this is good manners, Vann is falling into the trap of appeasement which will certainly not stop at pews. Surely the Muslim guests would be offended by crosses, bells, music, artwork, Bibles with their “corrupted” scripture, and other Christian accessories that Mohammad was careful to disparage and create a prohibition against, making them a source of offense. The only way Christianity can be non-offensive to Muslims is to diminish, which Vann is happily facilitating.
s says
They have eyes that do not see…. and ears that do not hear…. as they willingly implement not only Sharia Law, but also willingly creating the subordination of all other religions in favor of Islam… their Jizya is the welfare spending on those who will NEVER assimilate nor subject themselves to any government rule, as their ruler is ALLAH.. who demands the murdering of innocents and the mutilation of women and those who offend and those who commit criminal acts. They alter their education to not only teach the “wondrous Islam” … but to have children say the Shahadah… and to have them learn the Koran!
To alter our churches, displays of our beliefs, the wearing of a cross, church bells, are all self-destructive to other religions and they are allowing Islam to RULE! To alter the minds of our youth through education systems, trashing and excluding all other religions is treasonous to each and every Nation who submits themselves to Islam.
Screeminmeeme says
It’s sickening to watch ‘Christians’ in the UK acquiesce to Muslims. Their willful ignorance about Islam guarantees their suicide.
D Austin says
Nature does have ways of removing stupidity from the gene pool!
C504 says
The fine Muslims of this area will surely be saving the wood from these pews to build guillotines with which to depopulate future generations of pesky Judeo-Christians. Diversity is strength.
Dan says
Here is an Evangelical Lutheran Church in America college that has Friday Muslim prayers in the university chapel.
https://www.exposingtheelca.com/exposed-blog/elcas-augsburg-university-holds-muslim-friday-prayers-in-their-university-chapel
PRCS says
The video:
https://www.stolaf.edu/multimedia/play/?c=2877
Michael says
This exact kind of pew removal event (only worse) took place at the formerly Christian Chapel on the campus of Wichita State U., Wichita, Kansas in Oct. 2015. God alone knows exactly what happened. The usual collection of leftist media lies, pseudo-Christian “inter-faith dialogue”, and secularists admin. official cover-ups has made the event impossible to search out. A reliably honest student I talked to at the time said muslim students broke into the chapel in the middle the night and ripped the pews out in an act of total dominance. God knows. The result of course is a de facto mosque on campus and one less Christian worship site the USA.
Ricky says
The fall of the UK is near at that time people may return to church but I would imagine 20 or 30 people go to services at this church where the mosques 20000 people attend
AgainĦabbartek says
At the end of the day, it is and always will be a question of numbers. Muslims have this knack of appearing docile and passive. But if there are enough of them, numbers alone will sway in their favour.
That apart, I wonder if the people who have had a say in this decision to include anybody who cares to participate in a church given to a peace-loving community of different people’s following different Faiths – I wonder if they are liberal LGBT who understandably, want an all inclusive society. Gay people have lived with this fantasy for long enough and are well-practised. Positive inroads have been made but I doubt total inclusion will ever happen. It certainly won’t happen with a religious people like Muslims. So stop being so naive. Muslims do not, and never can tolerate gay people. SO GET REAL.