Excoriating the Protestant church’s “moral decline” is one thing, but now Wagner has joined a religion that teaches that homosexuals must be put to death:
The Qur’an contains numerous condemnations of homosexual activity: “And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, ‘Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people.’…And We rained upon them a rain [of stones]. Then see how was the end of the criminals.” (Qur’an 7:80-84)
Muhammad specifies the punishment for this in a hadith: “The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, ‘Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.’” (Sunan Abu Dawud 4462)
Moral decline or moral myopia, giving a divine sanction to murder? Wagner has chosen the latter.
“Right-Wing AfD Ex-Member Explains Why He Moved to Become a Muslim,” South Africa Today, January 31, 2018 (thanks to The Religion of Peace):
Speaking to the Bild newspaper on Wednesday, Arthur Wagner, former member of the right-wing Alternative for Germany (AfD) party’s national executive committee, revealed that his converting to Islam was caused by the Protestant church’s “moral decline.”
“One of the reasons is tied to changes that have taken place in the church, which no longer reflects my values,” he said, referring to clerics’ stance on the AfD as well as their approval of same-sex marriage and gay parades.
Wagner described the situation as “unacceptable” when the church supports “marriage for all” and pastors take part in Christopher Street Day, an annual gathering of the LGBT community in some German and Swiss cities, “where are children.”
Earlier this month, media reports said that Wagner stepped down from the AfD after he decided to convert to Islam.
He made it clear at the time that he hadn’t resigned due to his new religious affiliation, saying that “there was no pressure” and that “it has not changed anything.”
AfD spokesman Daniel Friese, for his part, said that Wagner resigned for personal reasons and that the party “has no problem” with the fact that Wagner became a Muslim….
WorkingClassPost says
AfD should be on this lie a whippet.
The guy joins them believing media claims they are far-right extremists, then when that proves not to be the case, he joins allah’s crew instead.
So who are the real extremists?
pat mott says
At last we all can see that Islam is as RIGHT wing as can be, in fact they go as far as the Nazis, may be those stupid ‘lefties’ will stop supporting them now!
tim gallagher says
Spot on, pat. Islam is ferociously repressive and far right wing ( well, 7th century barbarism really) in every regard and it’s staggering the way the left wingers side with it. It defies any logic. I guess that Muslims and supposedly progressive lefties just loathe western freedoms and therefore they join together to try to destroy our way of life. It’s a bizarre partnership. Any people who think of themselves as progressive types should loathe Islam.
Savvy Kafir says
I’m a progressive, Tim — and I loathe Islam.
gravenimage says
Hear, hear, Savvy Kafir!
Savvy Kafir says
I’m a progressive, and I’ve been saying this for years. Islam is THE most ultra-conservative ideology on the planet, bar none. It’s opposed to EVERY progressive agenda, and EVERY liberal ideal. And it’s f**king bizarre that so many liberals defend Islam, and welcome Muslims into their countries with open arms.
In my experience, these PC, Islam-friendly liberals do not know the first thing about Islam. And many of them resolutely refuse to be educated on this subject. It’s incredibly frustrating — especially for a Lefty who sees Islam for what it is, and recognizes that it is bearing down on us fast.
A couple of years ago, I got so frustrated that I wrote a book especially for liberals — The Savvy Kafir’s Intro to Islam: A Primer for Puzzled Progressives — but so far, it’s mostly been conservative counter-jihadi types who have bought & read it.
I really don’t know what it will take to awaken mainstream liberals to this threat. It seems that should have happened many times over by now, considering the events of the past 16+ years.
tim gallagher says
Well said, Savvy Kafir. Your attitude is what I would expect all progressive types of people to have towards islam. As I said above, I just think of Islam as 7th century barbaric garbage which should have died out the way the dinosaurs did. So I don’t think of it as left or right, it’s just totally repressive and barbaric and evil. It’s really anti-human and satanic . I’ve often thought the left wingers can have their arguments with the more conservative people in western countries, but they should all be able to see that Islam is just beyond supporting in any way. It is just too evil for anyone to support. It’s in a class of its own. Westerners, whether conservative or left wing, are far, far better and more civilised than Muslims with their murderous, misogynistic ideology. Everyone should reject Islam, then we can get on with our other types of arguments with one another. As you say, some people “resolutely refuse to educated” about Islam. They live in a fantasy land. I hope your book goes well.
Baucent says
It could be related to the equally loopy notion Liberals cling to; that muslims are a race. So if you criticize their beliefs, that presumably must be racist thinking, Obviously it’s completely illogical.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Islam is Fascistic, placing it on the left hand side of the spectrum. It is collectivist, authoritarian, and internationalist, hates the USA, all strong features of left wing politics.
How ‘conservative’ is marriage to six year olds and sex with 9 year olds…from our current perspective, that is very ‘progressive’, wouldn’t you say?
Fascism can be tricky to pin down when looking at individual examples of fascist rule, but the traits i listed above are enough to set it firmly over to the Left. If there are some points which vaguely align with what we consider to be more right wing, or ‘conservative’, that only goes to show the malleability of Fascism., which derives it’s doctrine from only a few key concepts, leaving the rest up to to momentary expedience. The key thing is national identity….or the Ummah, in the case of islam.
Samuel Lowekey says
My own theory is that facism is anti-Semitism, wether it be the the National Socalist German Workers Party (the Nazi Party), The Communist Party, White Supremacists or Islam. What they all share in common is a hatred of the Jews. I think of them all being Left Wing.
I believe there is a pernicious evil that follows Jew hatred. Just my personnel opinion
LeftisruiningCanada says
I do agree with that.
It’s possible that white supremacists could exist on the right hand side of the spectrum, depending on how they wish to manifest their racial ideas, and their other social and economic ideas.
But yes, Jew hatred certainly comes from no good place, and leads to somewhere just as bad.
Frank Anderson says
Does anyone consider the source of the “left”/”right” dichotomy/label? According to Jonah Goldberg in Liberal Fascism the label may have originated with Josef Stalin. As I understand, and would appreciate other thoughts, left is communist (international socialist?), right is Nazi (national/ist socialist)/fascist/anti-communist and those who are in the middle are the one’s who resist both forms of totalitarian control.
Think about the amazing trend first brought to my attention by Glenn Beck with Goldberg where those labels are thrown around against anyone deemed out of step: I have observed personally, that one who recognizes the totalitarian characteristics of islam is being called “right wing” in a Jewish congregation? What am I missing? How has objecting to or resisting *any* totalitarian control become “right wing”? There seem to me to be a lot of really confused people running around not only loose, but setting priorities and rules. Then there are the collaborators taking advantage. And “we” are in the middle to suffer. What do you think?
pat mott says
Yes I agree that all these new leftish labels especially the ‘pious’ ones are just a new expression or way in to Anti-Semitism
Frank Anderson says
P.M., can you help me understand why so many Jews that I know, and from surveys nationwide in the US, heavily and seemingly blindly support “Leftist” causes and positions? They are supporting in the final analysis people who want to kill them. How can people so statistically over-represented in Nobel prizes earned, and producing gifts and accomplishments benefiting all humanity fail to see this? (estimate: with less than 3 tenths of 1 percent of the world’s population, Jews have earned 30 percent of Nobel prizes.)
pat mott says
I think that lefty Jews, & I was one once, haven’t kept up with events. Remember sophisticated Jews in Nazi Germany stayed on believing that things would change, we are an optimistic bunch!
Frank Anderson says
P.M., thank you for your thought. I have trouble accepting “ignorance” as an explanation, because among the Jewish people I know are highly educated and successful people in many professions. (“Show me a Jewish person who is not a doctor and I will show you a lawyer!”). They did not get “there” by ignorance, but by hard work and dedicated application of skill and discipline. This is one of the questions that will haunt and trouble me until I understand better. I seem to wish better for them than they wish for themselves.
gravenimage says
True, Frank–the terms “right wing” and “left wing” are often pretty meaningless.
After all, you can be a liberal feminist in favor of gay rights and still be considered “right wing” if you oppose the savagery of Islam.
Frank Anderson says
GI, Obviously I am still amazed, disappointed and trying to recover from being labeled “right-wing” for attempting to discuss the hatred of Jews in islam. In full reflection I can truthfully say I am not angry. “About half of Germany’s Jews simply refused to believe what Hitler wrote, spoke and practiced before their very eyes, and refused to try to preserve their lives.” Among other sources, from my previous writing here. “Those who cannot remember. . . ” Jorge Santayana, The Life of Reason (1905).
This throwing of meaningless labels distracts the conversation and obscures the effort to provide clear information and education of what has been done for 1400 years and shows every sign of getting worse by a totalitarian force, whether the force has the label of “religion”, “politics”, “revolution” or any other.
Peace in the most expansive and all-encompassing meaning possible (Shalom) be with you. “Pray as though everything depends on God; but Act as though everything depends on us.” Jewish prayer. Could that be taken to mean we can be God’s eyes, hands and feet, just as many believe that we are His Children?
LeftisruiningCanada says
So far as i remember, the left right idea seemed to get popular in late 18thC France. It’s gone through several evolutions in which ideas are considered left or right, but today the Left is generally characterized by being more favorable to collectivizing, big State solutions and interventions. The right tends to oppose this, looking to free market solutions economically and socially. I like the move towards a two axis spectrum, with left right as briefly described above, and a vertical axis having authoritarian at the top, and libertarian at the bottom.
Really, each axis is a slightly different way of understanding how a particular political philosophy approaches the conundrum of “The One and The Many”.
Fascism is solidly on the left, with the potential for extreme authoritarianism. Many on the left try very hard to have people believe that anyone who isn’t in favor of extreme open borders internationalism is a “far right nazi”, the term itself being used as a simple cuss word by them. In fact, fascism is only a little to the right of most antifa marxist types.
That there is great confusion and/or deliberate misuse of the terms left and right should not lead us to believe that political definitions are useless.
A little history
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/the-great-debate-by-yuval-levin-review/
Frank Anderson says
Left. . ., thank you for the additional information about the use of left/right pre-Stalin. Whatever the craving for shorthand definitions and labels, this one has long lost clarity and value, having been used according to your input well over 100 years by, to me, everyone who wants to throw a “cow pie” at someone he doesn’t like. It is now nothing more than an insult to throw around like other various “cuss” words. I agree that at least 2 axes are required for a better description if one must be manufactured. To me, this invented term is a code without fundamental definition from an authority who makes such definitions the same for all, such as the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles do for the accounting “language”.
But for what? To someone who is concerned with liberty/freedom/security/not being murdered, enslaved, mutilated. . ., where is a meaningful difference whether the threat comes from “left”, “right”, islam, Satan worship or any other political, religious or philosophical origin? I have learned one thing thanks to your help and would appreciate learning more. What are your thoughts?
LeftisruiningCanada says
” To me, this invented term is a code without fundamental definition from an authority who makes such definitions the same for all,”
I’m just going from what i picked up doing some economics courses ‘quite a while ago’, where a command economy was on the left, and laissez-faire was on the right. This is the same general pattern i have found in other dealings with left-right models.
Economic preferences tend to imply social preferences, at least in broad terms, so the same ‘authoritarian=left, libertarian=right’ pattern works there too.
The short of it seems to me to be that there is a pretty good objective way of defining what counts as a left or right wing political system, but that everything needs to be careful defined when talking about it. But, so far as calling people who are pro-national borders and/or pro-controlled immigration “Nazis’, ‘far right’ or ‘fascists’, there really is no truth to it at all, and it is being used the same way the word ‘islamophobia’ is.
” To someone who is concerned with liberty/freedom/security/not being murdered, enslaved, mutilated. . ., where is a meaningful difference whether the threat comes from “left”, “right”, islam, Satan worship or any other political, religious or philosophical origin?”
Knowing your enemy is one reason why it might pay to categorize whatever movement we are concerned with. To accurately characterize each facet of a movement requires understanding it in more detail, and having ‘slots’ to put the information in. If nothing more, this will enable us to more capably predict future behaviors and likely allies.
For example, fixing islam on the left has helped me understand more about why so many non muslims are supporting it. They share many of the same idea, especially regarding the US and Israel, though of course for different reason. They lie to each other of course, but they proceed to walk the same path anyway.
Other than it, it’s just interesting i guess 🙂
Thanks Frank, good questions help push things along.
As always,
Shalom (b’shem yeshua)
This was a helpful article, plus comments:
https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/2012/06/political-left-and-right-properly-defined/
Frank Anderson says
Left. . ., (I’m too lazy to type it all!), there is to me reason to celebrate a conversation where such disagreement as there is can be presented without the first sign of insult or abusive comment. In courtrooms, judges have *lots* of cases and *little* time to spend on each. Keeping written pleadings short but detailed and well organized helps the judge prepare before the hearing, because the pleadings will frequently be read by both the judge and opposing party before the hearing. Keeping the oral argument focused and “to the point” gives the best chance of prevailing. I propose the same can be beneficial in earning and keeping a non-captive audience participating and learning what will help in the current spreading conquest and struggling resistance. (Left is ruining everything everywhere it touches!; But so is Right, depending on what Right is!). Sincere best wishes.
gravenimage says
Interesting exchange, Frank and LeftisruiningCanada.
Such terms can sometimes be useful in describing a political continuum, but these are so often misused these days that they sometimes just muddy the waters rather than clarifying things.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“there is to me reason to celebrate a conversation where such disagreement as there is can be presented without the first sign of insult or abusive comment”
This is always the aim, sometimes we get closer to the bullseye than others. Calmness, we like calmness 🙂
“such terms can sometimes be useful in describing a political continuum, but these are so often misused these days that they sometimes just muddy the waters rather than clarifying things.”
So very true. Most of the time around here we can just settle for using ‘lefties’ and most will know what we mean. That seems good enough for a shorthand slur as any!
Frank Anderson says
“It’s more of an interesting exercise to place islam within more familiar categories, than anything else.”
Left. . ., until the slur is aimed at you as it has been me, which I have no intention or reason of doing to you. I suggest and plan to write in terms that do not lead to infamous “dog chasing his tail” distractions from the more vital endeavor of learning how to present the “oncoming train with us standing between the rails” of the izlamic (deliberately spelled to avoid autocorrect’s capitalization where not deserved) conquest to the uninformed and undecided. The informed already know; The decided have already made their commitment to the question; Those remaining are confused enough without wasting their time “chasing rabbits” sorting through “mumbo-jumbo”. If we wish to increase the number of people “with us” and not wandering around in a fog, a good start could be to create less fog.
Off to one side-Jews today argue to my satisfaction that there is no such thing as a Jewish race. The few Jews worldwide who live (about 16 Million of more or less 7 Billion total, and declining demographically) include many, or most, if not all, racially identified people. There is no such thing as an Aryan race, in spite of Hitler and Himmler’s fondest wishes and delusions. The idea that islam is a race is indefensible to any person capable of thinking and analysis. Those who claim otherwise are making up a new “definition” of “race” as hollow and groundless as the claims of “Aryan” or “Jewish” races. What one thinks (or fails to think) has nothing to do with one’s genes and biological heritage, with the *possible* exception of diminished mental capacity from genetic causes. Any thoughts? Best to you and GI always.
LeftisruiningCanada says
” a good start could be to create less fog. ”
Certainly this is desired. That is my main intention with regards to the definitions of words and meanings that we have talked about in this exchange. The enemy is a great one for twisting words to change them from helping accuracy of thought, into things that stop thought while stirring emotion.
It is to be hoped that there will be no tail chasing, which can safely be left to those in comfortable chairs at the top of ivory towers, but only enough discussion on a point as is needed to gain some little extra clarity.
I’m not sure about the Jewish ‘race’ thing. I thought it was more to do with being descendents of a certain people group, rather than any particular black/white/yellow/brown ‘race’ type factor. We all consider ourselves to be descended from families stretching back into history, but there has always been different genetic information included because of who people marry.
If there happened to be chinese or arab intermarrying in my family history, it wouldn’t make me any less connected to those who lived before that intermarriage, even though the genetic ‘race’ had changed.
Know what i’m getting at?
Frank Anderson says
Left. . ., the race issue does not directly connect with your comments, but does with several that do remotely bring the issue into discussion. I believe, and know the last time it was discussed in my presence, that Jews do not consider themselves to be a race, In spite of the fact that many have been part of the Jewish community as long as anyone can remember, multiple, multiple, multiple generations. It would not surprise me at all that some of my Jewish friends have genealogies going back over a thousand years, and, who knows, even longer. As I can only go back 1 generation on one side of my birth family I cannot relate to that historical posture. (Must be nice?). I am honored that God saw fit to bring me to life and keep me here for whatever reasons He sees. There is still something good I am expected to do.
We have both no doubt seen many documentaries and read our share of books destroying the myth of the Aryans. Now the “religion” of islam has graduated falsely, without reason or justification, to being a “race” so that “anti-racists”, who desperately look for causes to prove their own brilliance/importance and worth, flock blindly to its defense against imagined falsehoods. If we wander through a forest of less-than-relevant controversies, such as Christian theological arguments that have been going on for 2,000 years, does that diminish our focus on what islam wants to do and is doing now to take ALL of that away from everyone? Really obtuse thoughts will cause many to “glaze over” and wander away. As a Mason, and the adopted and chosen son of 6 Masons, I absolutely support your right to seek your understanding and connection with your Creator, whom Masons describe with the title Great Architect of the Universe. Your search benefits all around you. I have no right or duty to interfere with that most vital search. My uncle, and Father-by-choice #2 correctly identified *our* search as the most important personal decision we will ever make and must be totally free of anyone else’s compulsion. I think getting into discussions bordering on the classic “how many angels can sit on the head of a pin” leaves something to be desired. Please think about it. Always with respect and courtesy to you.
LeftisruiningCanada says
With respect Frank, i don’t think that trying to define political positions or have discussions about theological points is pointless, in the same way that i don’t think writing about tangentially related legal cases or interesting Jewish anecdotes is pointless or uncalled for.
I’m willing to abide by the rules of common decency and, if Mr Spencer asks will refrain from discussing anything deemed inappropriate or obtuse.
Apologies if the above conversation seemed to be of no consequence to you, but when you made statements and asked questions i assumed that it was of interest.
Frank Anderson says
Left. . ., free speech rules. Best wishes always.
Mirit says
Islam is not right wing and not left wing. Islam is Islam. A different culture, ideology, way of life, that threatens all of us, left and right alike.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Oh sure, no disagreement with that.
It’s more of an interesting exercise to place islam within more familiar categories, than anything else.
Barguest says
And will he (Wagner) be condemned as a homophobe? Will anyone lecture him that “It’s the current year”? Of course not – muslims get a free pass on attitudes and behaviour that would see the rest of us pilloried. Can’t criticise a muslim, oh no, that would be ‘racist’. Apparently. It seems that when one becomes muslim, one automatically acquires extra melanin.
christianblood says
If his “church” has liberalized and gone gay he could have converted to the only Church in Christendom which is totally untouched by the liberal, postmodernist relativism and that is the Ancient Orthodox Church. I think after a few years, being under the influence of the swing back of the pendulum of Rhythm he will reject islam and will very likely be baptized as an Orthodox!
Indiana Tom says
I can think of more than a few Protestant churches in the USA which are not into liberalism and the LGBT scene.
christianblood says
Indiana Tom
Sadly true!
gravenimage says
Why is Christianblood sad about this?
dhans says
You must understand that the message of Jesus has two important points.
1) Man is imperfect and is incapable of perfection, so achieving the divine through actions is impossible for man.
2) Man can no longer be the enforcer of what is moral law because of his own imperfections. Man can only enforce moral law on himself, and he in turn must answer for his own imperfections.
Jesus did not overturn the Old Testament law. In the Old Testament the following are sins punishable by death (among others):
1) Adultery
2) Children not obeying their parents
3) Apostasy
4) Homosexuality
5) Harlotry
Sounds a lot like Islam, correct?? That’s why Islam has appeal to misguided people, because now man has been returned to the state where he becomes the enforcer of moral law. This makes the existence of Jesus superfluous however, so Islam makes no sense to anyone who understands the New Testament of Jesus.
Old Testament punishment could be mitigated by the courts, so the punishment was not universally carried out. This seems excessively severe in any case, so the testimony of Jesus is very important to Christians in order to mitigate this. This does not make any of the above a non issue in Christianity however, as they are still seen as wrong, it’s just that the individual has to answer for his own sins. We understand our faults, repent for them, and hope for a very forgiving God. Those churches that reject the above as sins cannot really be called Christian, and instead are pandering to people for monetary purposes.
Kepha says
I’m sure you could find things in the writings of Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Zacharias Ursinus, Caspar Olevianus, Heinrich Bullinger, Huldreich Zwingli, Johannes Oecolampadius, Martin Chemnitz, or any number of the theologians who made the Reformation in the German-speaking lands for disapproval of the sin against nature and for sex outside a marriage between a man and a woman (of the real, XY and XX kind).
If Herr Wagner is among the best Germany can do, when he doesn’t even know the tradition he’s supposed to be for, he’s no better than the liberal theologians who have betrayed the Evangelical and Reformed faith in Germany. Help me, any European readers or lurkers: is European Christianity so vitiated that a supposedly educated man does not know that Moses sees homosexuality as an abomination, Paul sees it as a corrupt fruit of idolatry, and Jesus speaks of marriage as between a man and a woman?
lebel says
So I guess it was not the evil Muslims as the latest jihadwatch conspiracy put it:
“There is still another conceivable variant. Muslims in Brandenburg, knowing of Arthur Wagner’s work with Muslim refugees, and of his desire for a mate, might have persuaded a Muslim woman, refugee or not, to respond to him, all in the path of Allah of course, and then to demand that he convert so that they might marry. What a coup for Islam that would be — and has now turned out, in fact, to be. You can just imagine how often Muslims will be bringing up the case of Arthur Wagner, as proof of Islam’s greatness, for it can “overcome even the worst sort of islamophobia.”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/01/hugh-fitzgerald-the-latest-astonishment-or-arthur-wagners-private-business
Wellington says
There’s no “jihadwatch conspiracy” here, lebel. All there is is that Islam, unlike any other major faith, instructs it own believers to use force in this world to fulfill religious dictates, like killing gays.
Yes, many religions threaten what will happen to you in the “next world” (and, in the interest of full disclosure, I don’t think there is a “next world”), many even threaten what their deity or deities will do to you in this world, but only Islam ALSO allows its believers to use force in this world against those who oppose the creed they believe in.
You see, this is what really makes Islam so disgusting and menacing, i.e., the “believers'” right to use force in this world to effect what some possible higher authority has in mind. Minus this, Islam would just be silly. With it, it is dangerous to others and a mortal threat to things like liberty, equality under the law, alcohol, music and, yes, even fun.
Grasp this, doofus. Oh yeah, grasp this you fool.
Ashley says
+1
Think I’ll stir up a small pitcher of martinis (stir…never shake), light a smoke and laugh like a hyena. It is, after all a bloody blue super moon…
Only Wellington can drop the word “doofus” and make it profound…
eduardo odraude says
Completely agreed, Wellington, though I’d like to add one tweak: “force” could read “force and fraud.” As you know well, Islam is a state and not just a religion, and thus deception is a significant part of its modus operandi.
gravenimage says
Fine post, Wellington.
lebel says
Yes Wellington, no conspiracy theory by jihadwatch writer Hugh Fitzgerald on Muslims conspiring to send a Muslim woman to marry this man. None at all, into the memory hole.
The only conspiracies are those made by ISLAM. They’re the only conspiracies.
Wellington says
There are other conspiracies, lebel, than those initiated by Islam’s followers and done in the name of Islam, but Islam produces far more than its share since it is steeped in the rot that it is such as no other major religion is. An event like 9/11 comes to mind, which was indeed a planned conspiracy that reached fruition. The Muslim Brotherhood’s design to undermine Western Civilization from within is an ongoing conspiracy. Sending hoards of young men posing as refugees into Europe with the design of fulfilling Sura 4:100 about emigrating in the cause of Allah is yet another example that can be provided.
Oh yeah, Islam has far more than its share where conspiracies are concerned. It’s one of many reasons (another is that Islam is a mortal enemy of liberty) why I despise Islam and I despise no other major faith, but respecting Islam I do indeed detest it. Anyone possessed of sense and knowledge should.
gravenimage says
lebel used to pose here as an Anti-Jihadist, not matter how implausibly.
Now he has admitted that he hates Jihad Watch:
“…I am against jihadwatch because it is against ALL muslims and because it is irrational in its opposition (Iwould say hatred) of Islam. In other words, Islam is ALL bad, ALL the time.”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/01/muslim-martin-luther-tariq-ramadan-accused-of-rape-is-detained-in-paris#comment-1827840
Of course, what he has to say about Jihad Watch is false. He also has not said–not explicitly, anyway–what about Islam he actually considers to be good. I shudder to think, given his long history here of spouting apologia for Islam.
gravenimage says
no matter
Champ says
More ridiculous assertions from “lebel” …
He’s on a roll today–going from thread-to-thread–attempting to undermine Robert Spencer and his audience with so many bold-faced lies.
Yes they name is LIBEL!
Champ says
Thy name is LIBEL! …sooo worth repeating.
gravenimage says
lebel’s a nasty piece of work, Champ.
Champ says
Indeed, Graven!
Samuel Lowekey says
You can guess all you want Libel. You know, youre right. It’s another conspiracy against the muslims. Imagine thinking it could be money or women being the motive for converting. How cynical of Jihad Watch to think such a thing. Clearly Wagner saw the glory of allah shining down on him from paradise, and the seventy two virgins and the scattered pearls calling on him, that’s what it was.
Emilie Green says
Jesus, Who died for each person’s sins, said, Ye must be born again of the Spirit. It is Jesus Alone in Whom we must trust. Not some institution of man. Look only to the Word.
Rev G says
I still have to wonder, he being such an outspoken critic of Islam, were their threats towards his family or something of that nature that coerced his change of heart.
gravenimage says
This is possible, Rev G.
It also may be that he just decided to go over to evil.
elee says
Too bad his new buddies lost Raqqa. He would have found it morally agreeable.
Prabh108 says
Hinduism and all related creeds coming out of ancient and modern Hinduism (Sikh, Jain, Buddhists, Vedist etc.) prohibit and condemn all forms of deviance also. Hindu creeds also reject and condemn all forms of slavery.
Embrace Dharma – don’t replace one demented creed with another demented creed.
Hinduism.co.za
Failure to practice Brahamacharya results in incarnational loss of beauty. ( a lot more to yoga than mere stretching…)
Almostanythinganytime4ahimsicaryavartanaryaputraoFakhandAryavartasthan.
Dharm Yudh is on.
pr108
excuse typo if any
Sarah says
Honestly, excuse me if I appear overly cynical here – but I think the reason why the old religions all have such a problem with homosexuality is because those religions were birthed in era’s where you HAD to procreate – in order to survive. You had to extend your family, in order to live. You needed a large family, in order to live.
Plus, contraception wasn’t even something to be dreamed of – the idea hadn’t been dreamt up at that point and men were still wholly recognized as the strongest and therefore held the authoritative position across any society – because these were societies where life was HARD. You could die of starvation – if the rain didn’t fall. Or fell too much. Or it wasn’t hot enough. Or cold enough.
You could die at any minute, from a simple accident – or catching a disease (and they didn’t even understand what disease was, for that matter). Life was precarious and short, hard and viciously brutal. It was survival of the fittest and the best. The strongest.
And the way to protect yourself, the way to keep yourself safe, fed, housed and clothed – was to surround yourself with those loyal to you and beholden to you. Which is your family. Hence why marriage was always arranged – and arranged to suit the families in question.
They just added in the whole ‘God hates homosexuality’ to scare people witless against doing it. Because if people stopped marrying and procreating, the whole (incredibly precarious) situation could fall apart, in the blink of an eye.
Plus – without contraception and with women needing the protection of the men – its not like knocking out babies could be prevented. Marriage protected those women, in theory, and thus, with the growth of the family – and the growth of the wider community, survival was better ensured for all.
It was just a really different era to where the human race has gotten to, today. If religion hadn’t of gotten involved in the whole ‘homosexuality’ topic – being gay would have become commonplace (in the proto-West, at least) probably by the time European civilization first encountered the plague, maybe even earlier before that.
After all, the Ancient Greeks had no problems with homosexuality. Many culture’s did not. It took the establishment of these religions that we see practiced today, to make homosexuality an ‘evil’ thing.
Honestly, any Christian today who is against homosexuality all because that’s what their religion says, better still hold to (and practice) a pretty fair whack of the Old Testament rules themselves – because it’s rich to hate homosexuality on the basis of it being logically practical to not do it, a couple of thousand years ago – but then turn around and not eat shellfish today, or avoid pork produts.
Both the shellfish and pork rules were relevant to the era they arose from – and are ridiculous today. Homosexuality is no different, in my view. We’ve evolved societally beyond the need to survive by manic child birthing.
Roderick MacUalraig says
Seems pretty simple.
Seems ridiculous to think the creator or creators of everything, if there is such a thing, has a problem with human sexuality in any form.
dhans says
Tell that to the Europeans whose birth rates have dropped below replacement levels. With birth control they now have the means to obliterate their entire culture.
Frank Anderson says
Dhans and anyone else with thoughts or interest: Low demographic birth rate, especially when birth control is available, is a deliberate choice. I suspect many demographic groups are committing slow motion self-destruction. Does that leave the future to “lesser intellects”? It looks to me like they don’t care what happens, so long as it happens in the future to someone they do not know. Now that is community depression in spades!
Walter Sieruk says
Not to get too much off the main topic, it still needs to be known that those jihadists /Muslims with their insidious Islamic scheming for the Islamic, subtle and not so subtle, conquest of Europe by every possible means, including the stealth and violent jihad which is, indeed, awful.
As explained by William Wagner in his book HOW ISLAM PLANS TO CHANGE THE WORLD .Which informs the reader n page 195 “Of all the continents of the world, Europe is probably the number one target by Muslim strategist who are seeking world dominance.”
Therefore, the Europeans would be wise to be on guard.
R Russell says
I don’t think he could ever have known the Bible Jesus. Has he been duped with the counterfeit Isa?
If only someone had taken him through the Greek of the New Testament which proves Jesus is God the Son of the same essence of his Father and then introduced him to that same Jesus who loves him, died and rose again for him.
May he discover the mistake he has made and importantly take care he isn’t murdered for getting to know the Bible Jesus.
Truth says
The Bible also condemns homosexuality in the Bible:
Romans Chapter 1.
Leviticus 20:13.
Also that marriage is between and one man and one women. Thats in Genesis.
St. Manuel II Palaiologos says
Human beings need authority, without it they dont know how to behave. So, when moral authority falters in the Protestant communities, then they’ll seek it elsewhere.
Frank Anderson says
St. Manuel. . . , I think you raise a very righteous question that extends to every community that I have encountered. Do we depend on the community as a moral reference; or should the community depend on us as individuals to help guide it to morality, strength, order and genuine progress toward the freedom and liberty I believe God wants for all His Children? I suggest that instead of leaving it up to others, we should start by deciding for ourselves and setting an example. Where others go their own way does not force us to follow. Communities ultimately need us more than we need communities, at least at the moment. We are never truly alone. “I am with you always; even to the end of time.” While Christians and Jews may see a different “I” speaking, truth is still being spoken. What do you think?
R Russell says
St. Manuel II Palaiologos
Had he known the Bible Jesus he would have had all the authority he needed. Sadly he could only look to people who, no matter how good or bad they are will never satisfactorily replace that special friendship which comes from getting to know the Bible Jesus in the supernatural realm.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Agreed. There is a great deal of Churchianity in some circles. It’s sad really…it becomes just like supporting a football club.
eduardo odraude says
St. Manuel II Palaiologos, you said,
What kind of authority? Who decides? How is the authority to be imposed on those who disagree?
christianblood says
St. Manuel II Palaiologos
You are indeed right but the problem is that in the West, authority is reduced to individualism and everyone acts as if they are they own god and they call that “freedom”. That is why you have, thousands of young people in the Western world that are deceived into converting to islam because most of these young people are bored in the materialistic, superficial and unspiritual and empty life that exists in the Western world today. They are looking to find some deeper meaning in life. Christian churches in the West could have covered this deep spiritual and philosophical needs that exists in the materialistic West but these “churches” themselves are secularized, post-modernized and deeply liberalized and are themselves spiritually BANKRUPT! In the Eastern Orthodox countries, Christianity is deeper, more spiritual, more mystical and allow profound spiritual and philosophical reflective contemplation whereas, Western Christianity both (Catholics & Protestants) God is confined in a tiny rational, secular box, his mysteriousness (Transcendence) denied and Christianity is limited to attending churches on Sundays, superficial Bible studies etc. There are no meaningful spiritual monasteries in the Western world and the few that exists are themselves secularized with computer games etc and have NO spiritual/philosophical dimensions to them.
There are No ascetics in the West, No monastics, No mystics, No Holy seekers of God who move among the masses with their Crosses, icons and relics. There is huge spiritual bankruptcy in the West and until these problems are addressed millions of young people in the West, will either keep converting to the islamic death cult and become homicidal jihadists themselves or will try to fill the empty void in their hearts with drugs, sex, satanism, violent gangsterism, empty materialism, consumerism, suicides, sexual perversions and all kinds of other superficial and evil practices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7CGB-X9btk
Lydia Church says
Only Christ has ‘Christhood.’
We become like Jesus when we are born again through the Holy Spirit, but He is unique of all humanity as only He is God.
christianblood says
Lydia Church
An advanced Christian can, in the words of St. Peter, “..participate in the divine nature..”
2 Peter 1:4
LeftisruiningCanada says
Context indicates that this relates to a limited participation, eternal life being the prime candidate. In no sense will us creatures cease to be creations, thankfully.
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada
There is no limited participation. You either fully participate in the divinity or you don’t. The whole goal of Christianity (after salvation) is to be more and more Christ-like until you totally become One with Christ and that there is No difference between you and Him in nature and behavior! That is why God created man from His own image (Gen 1:26) in the beginning. Isn’t the Holy Spirit job within the believer (The God within) to make him/her more and more Christ-like? (Theosis). Jesus Himself spoke about this eventual unity when He said:
“..Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me..)
St. John 17;21
LeftisruiningCanada says
christianblood,
“You either fully participate in the divinity or you don’t”
I don’t see any reason to believe that.
“The whole goal of Christianity (after salvation) is to be more and more Christ-like until you totally become One with Christ and that there is No difference between you and Him in nature and behavior!”
In part i agree, of course. It is every regenerated believers desire to be more like Jesus, since it means being more free from Sin.
But to be clear, when i use the term ‘nature’, i’m referring to those qualities that define what a thing is in itself, that which makes it different from other things. Like the term ‘ousia’ of Nicea fame (The Son shares the ousia of the Father, making them equally God by nature, though distinct in Person).
In that sense, i cannot at all agree that Christians, who are creations, will ever cease to be creations by becoming identical with the Creator *by nature*.
We will not become God.
To say so to me seems terrible.
““..Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be IN US so that the world may believe that you have sent me..) St. John 17;21”
I do believe that regenerated Christians, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, are indeed “in” Christ, who is surely Himself within the Godhead, within which there is ($10 word) the Perichoresis. There is definitely a mutual indwelling involving all parties. I’m just not prepared to say that we creatures will experience exactly the same kind of indwelling that the Triune God experiences, but, rather, something analogous.
It’s a fine point for the most part, but thank you for bringing it up.
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada
How does one ‘participate in the divine nature’? What was St. Peter was trying to say when he called his readers to participate in the divine nature?
According to Gen 1;26, Man is created from the image of God.
What does that mean?
In Orthodox Christianity, our most important goal on Earth is (Theosis) divinization, deification or God-realization through transforming effect of divine grace.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Hi christianblood,
“How does one ‘participate in the divine nature’? What was St. Peter was trying to say when he called his readers to participate in the divine nature?”
In short, by being granted eternal sinless life by the One Who possess it. In this primary way i agree that creations will, and do, share in the nature of the Divine. But, importantly, creations will never become sources of eternal life; it will always flow from the source to us, the grafted branches.
“According to Gen 1;26, Man is created from the image of God.
What does that mean? ”
I’d say that it means we resemble Him in many infinitely lesser though analogous ways. Beyond all the general things like feeling, thinking (using logic) protecting, self sacrifice, hating injustice and, crucially, loving, i would say that our own desire to create is one of the more important characteristics.
Yearning for more life also, i believe, reflects some deep acknowledgement that we should not be confined to such short spans, again referencing God’s own eternality.
The key is that we are creations, and are always, forever, to exist contingently.
“In Orthodox Christianity, our most important goal on Earth is (Theosis) divinization, deification or God-realization through transforming effect of divine grace.”
Yes, i have heard a little about that. While the Churches of the West have usually tended to be more analytical and rational, as opposed to the East’s more mystical bent, personally i am highly suspicious of subjective religious experience and the seeking of such.
Consequently, i, and i’m not alone, are content to await whatever it is that the partaking in the Divine Nature will entail to be effected in the world to come, rather than pursue it through various ascetic et al practices in this.
Each to their own i suppose. I’m not going to condemn anything unless it’s very obviously heretical or occult in nature 🙂
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada posted
(..Each to their own i suppose. I’m not going to condemn anything unless it’s very obviously heretical or occult in nature ?..)
Thanks for the wise words!
You also wrote: (…i am highly suspicious of subjective religious experience and the seeking of such…)
Don’t be. Subjective experience of the divine Christ within us is a huge blessing, it is spiritual bliss! It is being like in a paradise on earth and there is nothing like it! Remember the great very wise advice from Saint Paul:
(..Test all things; hold fast what is good..) 1 Thessalonians 5:21
LeftisruiningCanada says
Knowing the deceitfulness of ones heart, and not seeing any guidelines in the NT on how to attain to such experiences, i will play it safe and stick with beholding Christ crucified for my sins, and awaiting the return of our Lord!
Honestly, i’ve had a number of encounters with the ‘contemplative practices’ side of things, and it’s enough to keep me away for life. I’m not condemning the whole concept in general, but imho it’s simply too risky.
But again, i don’t know you or your beliefs in that regard, so please don’t take this as any kind of insult towards you, if possible. It’s not intended as such.
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada posted
(..Knowing the deceitfulness of ones heart, and not seeing any guidelines in the NT on how to attain to such experiences, i will play it safe and stick with beholding Christ crucified for my sins, and awaiting the return of our Lord!..)
If your heart is filled with the Holy Spirit, if you entirely sanctified and your goal on Earth is to life a Christ-like life, if your salvation is sealed by grace and you will never lose it, then you have two choices:
1. To stay in that baby stage and do all the familiar external things (which are indeed all good) and enjoy drinking the milk like a babe as St. Paul has pointed out in the Hebrew 5, (and most Christians stay in that baby stage). Or
2. To mature up and move up in the spiritual stairs and seek not just a head-knowledge based on doctrines, dogma, churchianity etc but to Seek, first hand, personal experience of the divine Christ your self and become One with Christ through subjective experiential knowing/being and become “a meat-eating, matured Christian” as St. Paul figuratively puts it. There is huge difference between the two styles and in either case, OUR SALVATION IS SEALED AND THERE NO NEED TO BE AFRAID OF LOSING IT!
Isn’t that exactly, what Jesus Christ meant when He said: “…Ask, and it shall be given you; Seek, and ye shall find; Knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened…” ?
What do you think Jesus is telling us to ask, seek and knock?
Salvation? No, It is not salvation alone from our sins alone, what he is telling us there for that was sealed for us when died for us on the Cross. It is rather about this profound, experiential knowledge to becoming little Christs on Earth, not just for ministry or for evangelism, even though that is a minor part of it, but rather to deeply bless our souls and enjoy the treasure of the spiritual bliss, the spiritual feast here on Earth by experiencing it first hand!
Remember, “…in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge…) Colossians 2:3
” St. Matthew 7:-7-8
LeftisruiningCanada says
“If your heart is filled with the Holy Spirit, if you entirely sanctified and your goal on Earth is to life a Christ-like life, if your salvation is sealed by grace and you will never lose it”
Oh, please don’t misunderstand, i fully agree that salvation, being the work of Christ from start to finish, is not something that can be lost. It wasn’t my will or desire which brought me to faith, and it isn’t my efforts which will persevere to the end. All the credit goes to the Triune God!
No, i was not saying that the risk was to one’s salvation as such, but that it is, im sure you would agree, possible to be lead astray into strange doctrines and practices by turning inwards to ones feelings and emotions.
This really is the very different perspectives we represent on the issue. There is always the danger of pride creeping in when one believes that they have a higher and more spiritual set of practices. I for one am very prone to pridefulness, however unwarranted it is in one such as myself, and have seen the harm that spiritual pride can cause amongst Christian brothers and sisters.
It is possible to fill such passages as Hebrews 5/6 and Matthew 7 with whatever definitions we like, or whatever our traditions lead us to presume, but for me, and many others, i simply don’t see the presence of a mystical strand of practice in the NT. In the context of Matthew 7, i see a simple childlike faith and reliance upon our Father for the necessities of everyday like. This is a great thing, and leads right to the core of our fallen nature – self reliance, rebelliousness, and not trusting the One who loves us, died for us, and will care for us from now into eternity.
There is a stream of thought which tends to look down on the practical and everyday as if it isn’t ‘spiritual’ enough. In this way of thinking, the man who works to support a family, going about his daily life trying to ‘keep his garments clean’, isn’t as ‘advanced’ or ‘spiritual’ as, say, a monk in his monastery keeping the daily rounds or service and tasks. I cannot agree with this, having tasted of both. Beyond what we feel or think about it, there is no difference.
I’m not going to tell you that you are immature CB, because i don’t know you or anything about you. I just know that the mystical tradition is not something i see in the life of Christ or in the rest of the NT, so i’m not going to create practices and goals that i’m not convinced are there. In good conscience i cannot.
Truly In Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, and He has laid them out for us in His word. There i seek Him, the One who is the Word, using words and ideas and understanding and asking for help all along the way.
It is a mistake to regard that those who steer away from mysticism are somehow missing out, or that they are ‘too intellectual’ or whatever. It need not be the case.
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada
(…but for me, and many others, i simply don’t see the presence of a mystical strand of practice in the NT…) Really?
As a Christian, you believe God incarnating into a human being as Jesus Christ. Right? I tell you, It doesn’t get more mystical than that, my friend! The whole story of God incarnating into a human flesh and blood is a mystical story and man can also reverse incarnate into the divinity of Christ through experiential knowing! The gospel of Saint John, the Apostle is the most mystical text of the whole Bible. You said, I am immature and I would refer you again to the words of Saint Paul who said,
“…In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the ELEMENTARY truths of God’s word all over again. You need MILK, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the MATURE..Therefore let us move beyond the ELEMENTARY teachings about Christ and be taken forward to MATURITY…” Heb 5-6
Please read and digest the words of St. Paul in that text is the mature that eats the solid food and who is the babe that drinks only milk and if you wish to remain only on the elementary things of Christ and refuse to mature forever, that is your choice, my friend.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“As a Christian, you believe God incarnating into a human being as Jesus Christ. Right? I tell you, It doesn’t get more mystical than that, my friend! ”
Of course i agree with that statement, but i think we are having a confusion over the meaning of ‘mystical’. The incarnation of the Son of God is surely a great mystery, but what i said was that i don’t see a guide to practices of ‘mysticism’ in the NT.
They really are quite different categories.
“The whole story of God incarnating into a human flesh and blood is a mystical story and man can also reverse incarnate into the divinity of Christ through experiential knowing!”
I suppose, even though i have tried my best to discuss the issue, we will simply have to disagree about that. The language you are using is so vague that i’m really not sure what you mean anymore.
“You said, I am immature”
No, i specifically said that i wouldn’t call you immature.
I’m familiar with the book of Hebrews, but i do aver that you are inserting meanings into your reading of the text that are not there. It doesn’t say that mystical and/or ascetic practices are the ‘meat’ that we should move on to. You are assuming that it means those things, possibly due to your traditional teachings.
I’m not going to say that those teachings are heretical or anything, but if you notice your attitude of spiritual superiority, i’m not sure that believing in them is encouraging you esteem your brothers more than yourself. The two tiered Christianity that pietism often leads to has never been a healthy thing.
I offer this as a gentle warning. There is no need for us to squabble over it.
LeftisruiningCanada says
” his mysteriousness (Transcendence) denied and Christianity is limited to attending churches on Sundays, superficial Bible studies etc.
You speak far too generally here.
“There are no meaningful spiritual monasteries in the Western world”
There are no monasteries in the Bible, and the desert ‘mystics’ didn’t bring any theological good from their unbiblical self exile.
“No Holy seekers of God who move among the masses with their Crosses, icons and relics”
What are ‘Holy seekers of God”? And, many of us would rather do with out such baubles as you mention.
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada
You don’t know what I am talking about and you won’t understand it either!
(..In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God..) Hebrews 5:12-6:1
LeftisruiningCanada says
Thanks for the help, very kind.
christianblood says
Sarah posted
(..Your comment earlier noting the secularization of Christianity within the West versus Eastern European Orthodoxy etc – really struck home, for me..)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these matters, Sarah! I would highly recommend that you to keep thinking about these matters and your soul my eventually wake up for the much better which is having a divine experience while still alive! I also suggest that you make an spiritual pilgrimage to Russia or Greece or both. The key is this visit BE (spiritual) not a secular tourism! Please Watch the four minute video clip below as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=zNAyzbxDMxc
LeftisruiningCanada says
Watched the video.
Good, i’m glad, so long as the Gospel in preached and Christ’s elect are called to repentance and faith.
If there are side benefits for the country, as there no doubt will be, this is even better.
Revivals and resurgences have happened many times in many places, perhaps this is Russia’s turn. Praise God.
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada
(..Good, i’m glad, so long as the Gospel in preached and Christ’s elect are called to repentance and faith. If there are side benefits for the country, as there no doubt will be, this is even better..)
It is indeed, unprecedented, huge revival! People are turning to Christ
and to the teachings like never before and the good thing is that the current government is facilitating all this religious revival.
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada
(…Good, i’m glad, so long as the Gospel in preached and Christ’s elect are called to repentance and faith.If there are side benefits for the country, as there no doubt will be, this is even better…)
That is a very good point!
Do you know that the postmodernist, post-Christian, Liberal West led by the US are really, really, really unhappy about this huge revival of Christianity in Russia and would crush if they had their way? The Liberal, Anti-Christ World Order led by the US would want Russia to curb the revival of Orthodox Christianity and instead introduce Liberalism, political-correctness, extreme feminism, moral relativism, “LGBTQ” sexual perversions and all the other destructive stuff that goes on in the West. Isn’t that why the Hollywoodized West really hate Russia after all? Watch the short video clip as it explained in 40 seconds by this good American:
https://www.facebook.com/thedurancom/videos/516832111981707/
LeftisruiningCanada says
Watched the video, and honestly, this is not news to many of us here. I’ve a soft spot for Alex Jones, despite his failings. Don’t agree with everything of course, but i appreciate his perspective to a certain degree.
“Do you know that the postmodernist, post-Christian, Liberal West led by the US…..The Liberal, Anti-Christ World Order led by the US….all the other destructive stuff that goes on in the West….. Isn’t that why the Hollywoodized West really hate Russia after all?”
In the the context of our agreement about the video above, might we not wish to work towards a less generalized picture of the West? As Christians we both have an understanding of the fallen nature of mankind, which gives us a way to see the moral failings you well note as not being the product of a certain place, but as expressions of our commonly held sinful nature.
This isn’t about ‘the evil US’ or whatever…it’s about sinners creating ideas which enable them to suppress the knowledge of God and then getting these ideas into places of influence so that their sinful desires can be satisfied without anyone being able to say, or even think, anything against them.
Far from being inherently evil, the USA is founded on highly Christianity based ideas of individual freedom and limited government. These conditions have allowed the abuse of those freedoms as a consequence of abandoning the foundations. The founders of the USA knew very well that a strong personal, Christian, morality was required for the Constitution to work as they envisioned, and knew that it would cease to be a protect for freedom once these basic morals were lost.
I agree, like many on this website, that there is an increasing trend towards the evils you mentioned in the West. But those evils do not define us. We see them as alien to our values as you see them to yours.
The way towards a more unified opposition to the ideas which are furthering the moral decay may well be to move away from seeing them as being inherent to ‘The West’, and to see them, as we do, as being like a cancer in an otherwise healthy body. We don’t condemn the whole body to death for the sake of a small part gone wrong, though the treatment causes stress to the whole.
I hope you will try to understand where i’m coming from on this, because i think we have a great deal in common overall.
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada
My friend, there is an deniable, highly organized global push by the Western world, led by the US to destroy conservative moral Christianity and to replace it with destructive, liberal moral relativism. The Western world, spreads this morally relativistic ultra-liberal secular values under the guise of “democracy and Human rights” and Russia as the biggest (unapologetically) Christian nation on Earth is on their cross-hairs! Please understand that whether islamic extremism and liberal extremism their source is One and that One source is Satan! Islamism and Liberalism are the same thing and both have One satanic source.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“highly organized global push by the Western world, led by the US…..The Western world, spreads this morally relativistic ultra-liberal secular values under the guise of “democracy and Human rights”
It would simply be more respectful and accurate to make the distinction between *certain elements* within the Western World which are doing the pushing, and the many people who, though living and supportive of the West in general, are not part of the socialist push for all the evils you mention.
The West does not, and has not through history, stood for the values that are currently being forced upon us and other parts of the world.
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada
(..The West does not, and has not through history, stood for the values that are currently being forced upon us and other parts of the world…)
My friend, the West is metamorphosing and changing into something else before our very eyes and is exporting that satanism into other cultures even using military force! Please understand, the whole matter has spiritual roots and cannot be solved politically. The biggest debate lately in many Western countries including the US is, if boys and girls have to use the same toilets and if some id’s have to be “gender neutral” .LOL! There is huge social engineering going on the West and a deep desire to export demonic social engineering that to the rest of the world. Huge spiritual bankruptcy and satanism at the roots!
I rest my case, my friend, have a great weekend!
LeftisruiningCanada says
Again, i don’t disagree with what you say. The ‘transgender’ confusion is very troubling, and the kids are suffering because of it as you mention.
The West is also suffering and changing. But the support for these changes can seem higher from the outside than it really is.
Take care CB, and thanks for the conversations.
Sarah says
@Christianblood. Your comment earlier noting the secularization of Christianity within the West versus Eastern European Orthodoxy etc – really struck home, for me.
Personally, I’m an Anglo-Saxon, white as white can be, Australian who is an Atheist. I look like the classic Aryan female, seriously. Natural white blonde, blue eyes, very fair skin. You don’t get much whiter than someone like me haha.
Now, having grown up in Australia, I can honestly say that every single fellow Anglo-Saxon descended Aussie I’ve ever known in any capacity (and I’m talking about plain white, not say, Greeks or Italians or Russians, just plain old Anglo heritage) has been either an Atheist, or an Agnostic (and that includes the ones who believe in an afterlife because the tarot cards say so etc), a tiny sprinkling of enthusiastic Born Again’s (all Pentecostals), one Mormon and two Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Meaning that it is my experience, in my nation, of Anglo descended Westerners – of real old school, classic Western descent – tend to be completely secular and not remotely religious.. Even the tiny number I have met who do hold some sort of religious belief, are very secular.
But every single Greek, Italian, Pole, Hungarian and Russian I have ever met, no matter if they were born here in Australia or not – have ALL been practicising Christians of their various forms of Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism. They’re pretty secular too – but they all wear their crosses and speak of Jesus – their religion is a part of their life. (Not to mention all the other people from all the other nationalities – like Indians, Africans, Asians etc)
One of my closest friends is a lovely guy, my age, Greek heritage. He’s Orthodox, speaks of Jesus etc. Ironically – knows less about his own faith than I bloody well do, which speaks volumes to me, about just how much scripture is actively taught in his community and church (especially given I’m not a pro on Christian scripture, let alone Orthodox, not by a long shot).
This guy will argue with me til the cow’s come home over various things he’s been taught in Church that I can show evidence to immediately disprove – and then on the flipside, will have absolutely no idea about certain scripture’s and Christian values – that I end up educating him on and pointing out to him, in his own bloody bible. Honestly, I love the guy – but the mind boggles sometimes LOL.
I guess my comment is just my thoughts on what you’ve said. I’m no fan of Christianity as a religion to practice; although I respect its place historically, as well as its importance and value; in the formation of our wonderful civilization today, but what you’ve said has really resonated with me.
There’s something about Christianity as applied to the modern day tenets of Western civilization that has led to its slow path towards what seems to be, inevitable destruction. I wonder if that is a Protestant thing, or a Cathollic thing – or whether the whole concept of Christianity itself is at fault within this framework?
Fascinating stuff. Personally, I think that within my lifetime, inside the West, that Christianity is either going to fall completely as the majority practiced religion, or experience a major revival – most likely as a result of some pretty impressive transformation and adaptation – and most likely at the hands of the coming war’s that we’re about to experience in the coming decades – both at home and abroad.
Whether I’m right or wrong – the only truth at this point seems to be that the status quo cannot continue as it currently stands, if Christianity in the West wishes to survive, let alone flourish.
eduardo odraude says
I just read an article that pointed to some recent university research showing that Christianity and religiosity are not dying out in the United States — what is happening rather is that the people are leaving those churches that have more or less lost their faith or greatly watered it down. The same people however are entering the churches that take the faith seriously. Furthermore, the population of more committed Christians in the US is growing relative to the rest of the population, because religious Christians have many children, whereas less religious and non-religious people tend not to reproduce themselves. To my mind, this is nothing to worry about even for non-believers, because the prime exemplar in Christianity is reputed to have made various anti-theocratic statements, such as “Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, to God the things that are God’s,” and “My kingdom is not of this world.” Because of such statements and others, Christianity from the beginning has recognized that society needed two realms, the “temporal” and the “spiritual,” though sometimes the temporal rulers during the course of history have tended to dominate the spiritual domain, and sometimes the reverse: spiritual leaders have tended to dominate the temporal domain — but there always remained at least a latent sense that there needed to be two distinct realms even if people were confused about where the boundaries should be. And it took a long time to reach some clarity about that. Nevertheless, the two realms idea made Christianity one of the key historical forces leading eventually to the First Amendment and other religious freedom laws. The fact that the Bible conceived God as making covenants, or contracts with human beings, furthermore, is a key source of the eventual emergence of government based on a social contract between equals, constitutional government. A further source is that Christianity’s prime exemplar told the disciples that he among them who would be greatest would not lord over the others but would serve them and wash their feet. Christ then washed the disciples’ feet. And so the West eventually institutionalizes the idea that rulers should be “ministers” as in ministers of parliament, or representatives who serve others. Even if one supposes that Christianity is a pure tissue of fantasy, one can acknowledge that the core teachings of Jesus led eventually to democratic societies.
christianblood says
eduardo odraude posted
(…I just read an article that pointed to some recent university research showing that Christianity and religiosity are not dying out in the United States — what is happening rather is that the people are leaving those churches that have more or less lost their faith or greatly watered it down. The same people however are entering the churches that take the faith seriously. Furthermore, the population of more committed Christians in the US is growing relative to the rest of the population, because religious Christians have many children, whereas less religious and non-religious people tend not to reproduce themselves…)
That is right, but also there are more and more denominations that are being sucked into the liberal mindset and even the Roman Catholic church will eventually be sucked into the liberal black hole, if something that brings huge revival don’t happen in the coming years. All in all, as Sarah has pointed out, the prospect of meaningful Christianity will continue to decline in the West in the coming years whereas the growth of Christianity in Russia, China and other East Asian countries as well as in Africa will hugely increase.
gravenimage says
christianblood wrote:
St. Manuel II Palaiologos
You are indeed right but the problem is that in the West, authority is reduced to individualism and everyone acts as if they are they own god and they call that “freedom”. That is why you have, thousands of young people in the Western world that are deceived into converting to islam because most of these young people are bored in the materialistic, superficial and unspiritual and empty life that exists in the Western world today. They are looking to find some deeper meaning in life.
…………………………….
Christianblood has said this before.
But there is *nothing* spiritual about Islam, and it offers no deeper meaning in life–it just offers sanction for savagery.
For Christianblood to pretend that Islam is more spiritial than Catholicism or any denomination of Protestantism just shows that he hates the West far more than he does Islam.
He can certainly believe that Orthodox Christianity is superior to that of Catholicism or Protestantism is he so desires–but pretending that raping and slaughtering unbelievers is more “spiritual” than Catholicism or Protestant Christianity is just *utterly sickening*.
christianblood says
gravenimage
You misunderstand my comment. What I am saying is this:
Man is a Trinity which is mind/body/soul and to live a blessed life on Earth all the needs of three components of the Trinity (mind/body/soul) should be addressed, eventually, giving more priority to the soul which is the most important part of the three. Now, in the West because of the philosophy of secular materialism that believes man is a machine and there is no soul, no God etc, the society is made to focus only on the flesh’s or body’s needs and the mind and soul are totally neglected and that is why you have this huge discrepancy, confusion, conversions to islam, drugism, suicides, mass-murders and all the other disproportionate social ills. The reason is that because the soul and mind components of human are totally neglected the human being is a deep pain and seeks to deal with pain by filling it with other things such as islam, drugs, sexual perversions, very dangerous mountain-climbing or base-jumping etc and other bad things. I hope you understand my points!
gravenimage says
St. Manuel II Palaiologos wrote:
Human beings need authority, without it they dont know how to behave. So, when moral authority falters in the Protestant communities, then they’ll seek it elsewhere.
…………………..
Wait–you believe that the horror of Islam represents a moral authority? In what conceivable way?
Islam has its imperitives and taboos, but it has no moralty.
R Russell says
St. Manuel II Palaiologos
I understand you are replying from your own understanding. I assume you belong to a denomination with an Episcopal hierarchy and as such would take the stance you do.
Others also see Presbyterianism in the New Testament, with autonomy of the local church and the priesthood of all believers.
I don’t see much point in debating this for we do best as Christians when we agree than when we disagree. In other words, we concentrate on the basics we hold in common (from the creed and ignoring the dispute over the filioque clause) work together for the salvation of those who need to get to know the Bible Jesus.
Thousands of Muslims throughout the Middle East are having visions and dreams about the Bible Jesus and are becoming Christians. All of this without another human to direct them.
Our God can be very adept at escaping from the boxes we sometimes try to put him in thus He alone can be the only authority individuals need to develop and maintain a friendship with him.
May YHWH bless you.
gravenimage says
R Russell, St. Manuel II Palaiologos is Orthodox Christian.
don vito says
Evil, your characterisation, for moslems, was not written once by Mr. Fitzgerald. Nor, from the article, can it
be called a conspiracy because Herr. Wagner’s conversion was a suprise not a secret, as well as not planning to do something unlawful or harmful. Now, if Herr Wagner, helps to throw homosexuals off the tops of buildings and if that is, indeed his plan, he not only would be a pious islamic believer acting in accordance to islamic sharia, there might be an “evil” conspiratorial plot. The conspiracy would be Herr Wagner’s, not JW. Evil is intrinsic to islam, IMHO. But, to characterise Mr. Fitzgerld’s post with the word evil, is evil itself. How misleading is that? Very misleading. Smearing and slander must be pointed out.
don vito says
addressed to lebel
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
That is rational décision by this man. Christian Bible condemns homosexuality and that homosexuals should be put to death. How comes It becomes acceptable to that church ? May be because of that deception that the punishment for homosexuality is in OT, which idiots are saying is no longer applicable to christians, OT is mère description of what Israelites did. why retaining OT in christian holy book and termed it words of God ? In John, Jesus was God at the begining. It means the words in OT are also his words. was Jesus evil god in OT and loving god in NT ? Or has mithraist god found that what he said in OT was wrong and now corrected his wrogdoings in NT ? we want know.
Mr Spencer, made reference to Quranic verse describing homosexuality as too barbaric bellow the behavior of beasts and Hadith prescribing punishment for It exactly as the Bible says,and tried to show that Islam is wrong for such view on homosexuality. Will he say that his own Bible is also wrong ? The man Who converted to Islam knows that the Bible is explicitly against gay mariage accepted by his church. It means Mr Spencer is saying impliedly that christianity allows same sex marriage, while Islam is against It and that is why the man opted for Islam.
Mithraist christianity is truely a confused religion inspired by thé Satan christians Call holy spirit.
Ashley says
When you and libel decide to come out of the closet…do so on a first floor.
Human splat on a sidewalk doesn’t make for a sunny day…
LeftisruiningCanada says
Ibrahim is full of it today. Lies that is, since he avoids every single chance to substantiate his statements, while continuing to concoct more.
“Christian Bible condemns homosexuality and that homosexuals should be put to death.”
You fail to understand what the OT means the Christians.
“why retaining OT in christian holy book and termed it words of God ?”
You see, you don’t have the faintest idea of the very thing you have been attacking.
Go read Hebrew, it’s all there. You won’t though will you.
“In John, Jesus was God at the beginning. It means the words in OT are also his words. was Jesus evil god in OT and loving god in NT ?”
Oh boy. You really have no more idea about Christianity than some know it all in 3rd grade do you….
What is a covenant Ibrahim? Why can Christians eat things that Jews do not?
” Or has mithraist god found that what he said in OT was wrong and now corrected his wrogdoings in NT ? we want know”
If you wanted to know, there are hundreds of very good internet sites for you to learn from. I have given you links to some of my favorites many times already. But you don’t really want to know. You prefer you happy delusions. Anyway, if you were faced with the truth about these things, your life might be in danger from your kind and loving brothers, so best not to know, right Ibrahim?
“Mr Spencer is saying impliedly that christianity allows same sex marriage, while Islam is against It and that is why the man opted for Islam.”
Christianity does not ‘allow’ or encourage homosexuality in any way, Ibrahim. But nor do we want to kill people over it. Take a look at yourself Ibrahim, i’m sure there are many sins to be found. You deserve death for all of them. You will receive death for them at the judgment if you do not avail yourself of Christ’s sacrifice.
Anything you think you are going to offer in the way of ‘good’ works will only condemn you.
Rant and hiss and fizz and spit all you want Ibrahim, it’s only your fallen nature recoiling in horror because it hates the true God, revealed in Christ Jesus. Your false prophet started a religion called islam, meaning submission, and you think that you submit…but that name and the whole system is a terrible mocking joke upon everyone in the world, believer or not. You don’t submit, not at all. You are as seared in your pride as any man can be, and it will be the death of you. Repent Ibrahim, Christ’s judgment is never far from any of us.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Leftruinigcanada, my simple question is was Jesus not the same God of Israelites Who prescribed death pénalties in OT and Lifted It in NT ? Was hé wicked and savage in OT and turned loving god in NT ?
LeftisruiningCanada says
Sin is sin and God is always just and loving. There has been no change in His character as you wrongly assume. The death sentences, which were not actually carried out very often, show us how seriously God takes sin. Christ dying in place of sinners shows how much God loves us.
If you are trying to draw a comparison between laws set out for a small scale nation, which were never intended to be applied universally, and the death penalty laws in islam, which are to be applied now and for always everywhere, then you are barking up the wrong tree.
Champ says
“ibrahim itace muhammed” wrote:
“Christian Bible condemns homosexuality and that homosexuals should be put to death. How comes It becomes acceptable to that church ? May be because of that deception that the punishment for homosexuality is in OT, which idiots are saying is no longer applicable to christians, OT is mère description of what Israelites did. why retaining OT in christian holy book and termed it words of God ? In John, Jesus was God at the begining. It means the words in OT are also his words. was Jesus evil god in OT and loving god in NT ? Or has mithraist god found that what he said in OT was wrong and now corrected his wrogdoings in NT ? we want know.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And here’s an *excellent* answer to his query from “Tough Questions Answered” …
“WHY DON’T CHRISTIANS STONE PEOPLE TO DEATH?”
“If you are a Christian, how many times have you heard a skeptic say, “If you believe that the Bible is really the Word of God, then why don’t you [fill in the blank with a divine command from Leviticus]?”
Since the first five books of the Bible (aka the Pentateuch, Torah, or Law) contain hundreds of commands that deal with all aspects of human life, there is plenty of material for the skeptic to choose from. The purpose of this “gotcha” tactic is to take a verse from the Law that offends 21st century ears and challenge the Christian’s lack of consistency.
After all, skeptics think, if Christians truly believed that the entire Bible was the Word of God, then we would follow every command given in the Bible, right? Isn’t that just obvious? Since Christians don’t obey every command, then they are inconsistent and must not really believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
The skeptic argues that we actually get our moral values from the surrounding culture, just like everyone else. But if we get our moral values from the surrounding culture, then why don’t we jettison the Bible altogether? We obviously don’t need it.
What is wrong with this approach by the skeptics? The skeptic who quotes from the Law and asks Christians why we are not following the commands found in the Law has failed to read and/or understand the New Testament. How do I know that?
The NT clearly states in several places that the Law was fulfilled by Jesus and no longer applies to Christians. Here are a few passages proving the point:
“By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one [the Law] obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.” (Heb 8:13Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.” (Gal 2:15-16Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian [the Law].” (Gal 3:23-25Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
“But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code [the Law].” (Rom 7:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available))
These verses and others clearly state that Christians are not under any obligation to follow the divine commands given to the Israelites as they left Egyptian slavery and journeyed toward the Promised Land. As my seminary professor used to tell us, the Old Testament was written for us, but not to us. It was written to ancient Israel.
Now, does this mean that Christians should completely ignore the divine commands given to the Israelites? No, it doesn’t. But the question as to how we should apply God’s words to the Israelites to our lives today is an altogether different subject.
The bottom line for this blog post is that every time a skeptic throws a command from the Law at me and accuses me of being inconsistent, of not obeying one of God’s commands, I know that he hasn’t read the New Testament and understood one of its major themes – Christians are not under the Law!”
Above essay here: http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2014/12/26/proof-that-many-christian-skeptics-dont-read-the-bible/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This answer is spot on!
LeftisruiningCanada says
When dealing with the complexities of the OT Law, we always have to keep in mind the divisions which apply to it. I’m sure your time in seminary would have acquainted you with the three broad categories into which the Law has often been viewed: Moral, Civil and Ceremonial.
The punishments for various infractions are included under the Civil branch, and these were certainly part of the Covenant between the Lord and Israel. Christian, being part of the New Covenant are not bound to these Civil rulings. Christ was subjected to several parts of this part of the Law, particularly with regards to His crucifixion.
The Ceremonial Laws of course governed the entire Temple operation, along with other things like Festivals. Christ fulfilled these in His role as High Priest, and these Laws too are not enforced in Christianity.
The Moral Law, in a slightly modified form, still do apply to Christians, and these also have been viewed in a threefold manner: First use of the Law – as a mirror to show us our need for the Savior. Second use – as a restraint upon our sinful nature, and the natures of others through their application to civil law. Third use – Guide to right living for Christians.
It is true that Christians are not “under the law”, since we are joined by Faith to one who cannot sin. We are not expected to keep the Moral Law in order to attain or maintain our right standing before God. However, being born of the Spirit will give such a one the desire to observe these standards, and the knowledge of having sinned when we do not.
We must be careful to avoid antinomianism by claiming that the Law as a whole does not apply to us anymore. It does, as it does to everyone, the Moral Law reflecting the very character of the Creator. Everyone will be judged according to the Law. Only those in Christ will be found to have fulfilled it’s perfect standard, since only He did that.
Christ Himself said quite clearly that the Law would not pass away, and that we should reject anyone who comes teaching that it is OK to break the least one of them. The Moral Law is good and beautiful, and shows us what everlasting life free from Sin will be like!
I’m aware that you likely know this and more, so i hope you don’t mind me posting like this for the sake of balance. 🙂
LeftisruiningCanada says
I should also add that all of the Law goes towards showing us Christians the way in which God views Sin. The punishments alone tell us very much about how serious Sin is taken, and helps us understand the need, and depth, of punishment that Christ took on the Cross in our places.
We each deserve those judgments to fall upon us. But Christ Jesus has accepted it for us!
Champ says
“I’m sure your time in seminary would have acquainted you with the three broad categories into which the Law has often been viewed: Moral, Civil and Ceremonial.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Left, I never attended seminary. The above essay was taken from the link I posted just below the essay.
Thank you for your erudite reply!
Take care 🙂
LeftisruiningCanada says
ah, guess i mixed that up 😀
gravenimage says
The vile Ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:
That is rational décision by this man.
………………………….
Only if he is murderous thug. There is nothing “rational” about Islam.
More:
Christian Bible condemns homosexuality and that homosexuals should be put to death.
………………………….
What rot.
More:
How comes It becomes acceptable to that church ? May be because of that deception that the punishment for homosexuality is in OT, which idiots are saying is no longer applicable to christians, OT is mère description of what Israelites did. why retaining OT in christian holy book and termed it words of God ?
………………………….
Actually, Leviticus 20:13 is pretty vague on the subject.
But Muslims love to pretend that if Jews and Christians are going to be good Jews and Christians, that they must be as barbaric as Muslims.
More:
In John, Jesus was God at the begining. It means the words in OT are also his words. was Jesus evil god in OT and loving god in NT ? Or has mithraist god found that what he said in OT was wrong and now corrected his wrogdoings in NT ? we want know.
………………………….
Ibrahim itace muhammed does not actually care about this. After all, Muslims claim that Jews and Christians “corrupted” their texts, which were (supposedly) originally just as savage as Islam.
All he is hoping to do here is get Jews and Christians agree with the bloody savagery of Islam. Nice try, creep.
More:
Mithraist christianity is truely a confused religion inspired by thé Satan christians Call holy spirit.
………………………….
Ibrahim itace muhammed is claiming that anything that rejects the sanguinary barbarism of Islam is “inspired by thé Satan”.
This is not just immoral–it is the very inversion of morality. *Ugh*.
R Russell says
Ibrahim itace muhammed
Ibrahim.
“That is rational decision by this man”
This is the first mistake he made. He did not meet the Bible Jesus in the supernatural realm, but relied on his brain alone to inform him.
“Christian Bible condemns homosexuality and that homosexuals should be put to death”
You seem not to know that there are different categories of laws in the Bible. That can lead to misunderstanding.
Some of these laws were for a specific time and were as a result. Deuteronomy 4 helps to understand this.
“ why retaining OT in Christian holy book and termed it words of God…”
Unlike the Koran which has been changed, added to and deleted from, over the centuries (and this can be verified) The Bible is the only word of YHWH God and He decides its content. He has told us that the history of the Israelites is contained in the Bible as examples for us. 1Corinthians 10: Romans 15……..
YHWH God does not change his word (Unlike the Allah of the Koran who has to have the Law of Abrogation as guidance) If we read YHWH’s word out of context, interpret figures of speech as literal then we can become confused. The OT is the Jewish background out of which the Jewish Messiah came, as a redeemer for all the world – including you.
“In John, Jesus was God at the beginning. It means the words in OT are also his words. was Jesus evil god in OT and loving god in NT ? “
I have already addressed this with context. The Bible is one complete unit from beginning to end. Those things written beforehand demonstrate how the Jews, God’s eternal people came under both blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience.
Deuteronomy 11 and Joshua 24. The Israelites chose to have YHWH as their God and thus took on both the blessings and the curses.
“..Or has mithraist god found that what he said in OT was wrong and now corrected his wrogdoings in NT ? we want know…”
Example: If you want to fool someone with a counterfeit $50 bill. Do you make it resemble the authentic bill, or do you make it look like a forgery? Mithra is just one of the forgery religions which when examined can be seen to be two entirely different religions – just like examining the Character of the Bible Jesus proves him to be a totally different deity from the Koran’s Isa.
Again, unlike the Koran which has been changed, lost and eaten by a goat, the Bible has never changed. The Dead Sea Scrolls are part of that evidence.
You need to address you next question to Mr Spencer. I cannot speak for him.
“Mithraist christianity is truely a confused religion inspired by thé Satan christians Call holy spirit.”
There is no need to answer this. You think you have found something to prove Christianity wrong. You are comparing two entirely different faiths. You allow yourself to be deceived – but then Allah is named the ‘deceiver’.
You can continue to do deliberately mix up these two entirely different deities if you please. It may satisfy the ‘rational’ part of your brain, but deep inside it does not even touch that emptiness which can only be satisfied by a personal, supernatural friendship with the Bible Jesus.
He invites you to get to know him – will you do so?
abu taleb says
Islam may be against same sex marriage, but it is not against male muslims having sex with boys, and the Islamic god rewards them with pretty boys like pearls in Islamic heaven.
Islam worships every carnal desire and uses it to entice its people, so Arthur Wagner is among its worshippers
Indiana Tom says
Let us not forget the animals.
gravenimage says
Very true, abu taleb.
The only thing Islam actually hates is consensual same sex relations–it is fine with same sex rape intened to humiliate, as well as going after little boys. *Ugh*.
Indiana Tom says
Being non-PC, Judaic Old Testament scriptures and Christian New Testament scriptures are not tolerant and can be fairly hostile towards the LGBT community.
“‘If a man lies with a male, as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13
Therefore God gave them up in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen.
For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and hatred. Romans 1:24
gravenimage says
Jews and Christians may not always like homosexuality, but they are not murdering gay people as you imply.
Mockingjay says
“I hated homosexuals so much I became a muslim….” OH PLEASE.
– Although he says it was only “one of the reasons” of his conversion, it truly is the SORRIEST reason EVER to convert to ANY religion.
– I would like to know more about his “other reasons”, as I think those are the ones that he can’t or won’t say aloud.
Apart from that – converting out of hate does neatly fit islam though.
gravenimage says
+1
Lydia Church says
The church is in full blown apostasy now, yes, homosexuality is a sin.
But then stop going to that church!
Remain a devout Christian if you are one and become one if not, but don’t go in the other direction into false religion!
The gospel offers mercy and compassion for sinners. Jesus, God’s ONLY Son, died on the cross for our sins. God calls out to us, calling us to repentance, ready to forgive with outstretched arms, with kindness and love. There is love, peace, forgiveness, mercy, and compassion for the repentant sinner. For the unrepentant, there is still time.
But how much sense does it make to turn from that to a religion that also states that homosexuality is a sin, but calls for them to be tossed from the roof, no offer of salvation and forgiveness, just ‘off with your head’?
What a hypocrite!
Barbara says
The Muslim apologists will say anything to get people to convert. Hopefully some real Christians will come his way and set him right. You can think something is wrong and immoral without wanting to kill people. Take adultery, for example. Almost everyone says it’s immoral, but it receives no legal punishment.
Frank Anderson says
Barbara, stop a minute and think about a divorce in some states with grounds of adultery. What more brutality is needed?
gravenimage says
Speaking to the Bild newspaper on Wednesday, Arthur Wagner, former member of the right-wing Alternative for Germany (AfD) party’s national executive committee, revealed that his converting to Islam was caused by the Protestant church’s “moral decline.”
…………………………
Of course! It’s so much more moral to “marry” little girls, rape “pearly boys”, abuse women, and slaughter unbelievers. Nice try, creep.
Sarah says
Let me get this straight… This genius is converting to a new religion specifically so it provides him with the justification for his personal views?
This is just a steaming pile of filth who hates the gay community – and as a Politician in a first world democratic nation, is required to have (at the very very least) a very good religious justification to back up his stance, so as he isn’t utterly crucified at the altar of public opinion.
The fact is, when Christianity no longer gave him the protection of religious belief for him to indulge in his filthy hatred, he advanced to the most primitive, ugliest religion alive today of all. He went to Islam so as to retain that protection of religious belief – so he can go on spraying hatred and judgement over what individual people choose to do (completely legally, might I add) in their own bedrooms.
This is not a good human being. This guy is a vile piece of hate-filled sh!t just looking for excuses to cover his own backside and get away with his ugliness.
Interestingly, it’s going to make him a freaking PERFECT Muslim. Islam is right up his alley. He’ll be right at home with 1.5 billion other people, JUST. LIKE. HIM.
If I were the German government, I’d keep a beady eye on this waste of finite resources, mark my words, since he’s taken up the mantle and mantra of Islam – we’ll be seeing him in coming years on YouTube videos, with a long lice-ridden beard, spewing rabid fury against the West and shrieking about jihad.
He’s the exact PERFECT type.
Heidi says
Sarah, what German government? Since the election in September 2017 they were unable to form a new government. The old government is still in place until a new government is formed and that may never happen. So the election has to be repeated. While still in office the only thing they were capable of was to raise their paycheck. The negotiation, now being conducted between the three parties that want to form a new government, is to allow Syrians and other Arabs to bring their second wives for “the sake of their children”, allowing men with four wives and 20 children into the Country, and to allow men who are Cowards and left their Family in a war torn Zone to bring them to Germany because all of sudden they miss them. Merkel has, apparently, not realized that she doesn’t live in the GDR any more and runs the Country just like her former aquaintances in the GDR. The SPD at first said the want to join the Opposition, then said they may enter negotiations and then negotiate can’t be taken seriously because for them is all about power and Money. Some scum that coverts to Islam and publishes in the “Bild” is just one of the Things Happening in Germany no able minded Person will understand. The Bild is one of the worst yellow press and the paper is owned by one of Merkel’s best friends, Friede Springer as some other papers, who are supporting her to the fullest and also Support Hillary Clinton, is owned by another “best friend”, Liz Mohn. She also owns Bertelsmann which owns Penguin Random House and payd Obama and his wife $ 64 Million Dollar for their books. Both women also own TV stations. On top of that a large amount of the media is owned by the Social Demicrats Germany (SPD). Talking about an unbiased press in Germany is an outright lie. So the German government will not Keep an eye on the Islamists, they Keep an eye on those who do not Support their destruction of Germany and categorize them as right wingers and Nazis. The AFD is far from being rightwing, they are formed of citizens who do not condone what is going on in this Country but have to be smeared with the “right wing” Label. What also amazes me on a daily Basis is the stupidity of my fellow countrymen and women who still vote for their destroyers.
Chris Malan says
No, Sarah. Those are not only his personal views. Whenever homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible it is condemned. He is in line with what the Bible teaches on homosexuality.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Just not the bit about killing anybody 🙂
gravenimage says
Chris, I don’t imagine you are planning on throwing gay people off high buildings, are you?
Lory Darnell-Gustafson says
Arthur Wagner would set a better example by converting to the Baha’i Faith, which does not endorse homosexuality but does endorse tolerance of other religions – indeed unity of all religions.
R Russell says
Lory Darnell-Gustafson
He cannot convert to anything now or he will be killed for apostasy.
Baha’i people are lovely people, but they too have never met the Jesus found in the Bible.
gravenimage says
Unfortunately, Lory, Baha’i regularly whitewashes the savagery of Islam.
Georg says
“referring to clerics’ stance on the AfD”
Yea, I’m sure IS, Khamenei, and all their buddies just love the AfD. More bright logic in that he doesn’t like gay people… So, that means he has to join Muhammed? If someone doesn’t like the Giants it’s doesn’t make them a Jets fan. Hopefully he doesn’t become a kinetic activist.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
Here’s an Ikwan stat that it does not advertize widely: 75% of all new converts to Mohammadism leave before two years go by.
Lesson learned: do your research before you make the jump!
Remember911 says
While it’s true that mainline Protestantism is now fully “converged” and you can no longer be opposed to the practice of homosexuality, there are numerous “free churches” in Germany that take a more traditionalist, conservative stance. Why did Wagner not join one of them?
Frank Anderson says
Suggested possibility: Weak people cannot find their own answers.
Chris Malan says
The Bible also says those who engage in the perversion of homosexuality should be killed – http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm
Whenever homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible, it is condemned. There is no Biblical ground for promoting homosexuality or defending it. So, if one’s Christianity speaks out for homosexuality it is not really Christianity. After all, Christianity is Biblical.
The “don’t judge and don’t condemn” verses can equally well apply to peadophilia and incest if that is how one wants to read them. And what about a spot of necrophilia thrown in? After all, that doesn’t hurt anybody. So, Muhammed can say the New Testament says we should not be so judgmental about him and Ayesha.
One must not be a hypocrite like the liberals.
R Russell says
Chris Malan
Romans 1 tells us homosexuality occurs because society has stopped worshipping God. The two are linked.
Therefore the Church needs to get back to our Great Commission. We need to be able to, with the power of the Holy Spirit, tells others about the Good News of Jesus and his love. Acceptance, not rejection draws people to Jesus. Once people belong to him and submitting to the changing power of the Holy Spirit, sin is dealt with. Serious sin needs supernatural power to be overcome. It comes from a loving friendship with the Bible Jesus.
Champ says
“It comes from a loving friendship with the Bible Jesus.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spot on, R Russell!! So *very* true!
And this is what the Bible teaches …
“Jesus As A Friend”
https://www.openbible.info/topics/jesus_as_a_friend
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
R Russel, you lied.Not even a single word has been changed or altered in the Quran over the Centuries. Tell me Who made thé change or alteration after the departure of holy prophet muhammad, and which verse or sura (chapter) that have been subtituted and by whom ?
You are too ignorant about the concept of ‘Naskh(Abrogation’).
Naskh does’nt mean change or alteration. It means the ruling in one verse is superseded by ruling in another verse to qualify the application of that verse so superseded qualified . Eg, a verse on writing a Will is superseded or qualified by a verse prescribing fixed shares for a deceased’s legal heirs to the extent that one cannot write a Will in favor of his Legal heirs Who have prescribed shares in his estate he left behind, because they Will get double income. It is the holy prophet muhammad himself Who indicated such qualifications to the general ruling, not those after him. Again, such supersessions or qualifications are on very few verses. There is no whole sura (chapter) in the Quran which superseds or qualifies another whole sura as some ignorant lazy idiots have assumed that madinan suras supersed or qualify meccan suras.
Mr Russel, if you care i can refer you to standard work on Naskh or abrogation. See “Nasikh wal mansukh(Abrogating and Abrogated) “by muhammad khalaf,in Arabic, though i don’t know if it is translated into English. But you have claimed knowledge on the subject, and ï assume that you can understand It in Arabic.
Thank you
LeftisruiningCanada says
The only reason you don’t know about the different versions of the koran, is because your violent cult of a religion has always found it preferable to kill anyone who sought to investigate the fact.
Thankfully, there are some islamic textual critical studies being done in the West where, for now, it’s at least a little harder for them to be identified and slaughter.
I’ll get back to you with some resource links that you are free to ignore as usual.
For now, i’ll just ask you what you think about the Uthmanic recension.
LeftisruiningCanada says
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/criticaltext.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/index.html
http://www.rim.org/muslim/texts.htm
This is a link to a blog post mentioning a currently unique book (https://www.amazon.ca/Textual-Criticism-Quran-Manuscripts-Keith/dp/0739177532) which treats a small selection of koranic verses to the same textual critical analysis that the NT has been subjected to for hundreds of years.
Note particularly the comments section, where the author of the book answers a few questions posed to him:
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.ca/2011/07/textual-criticism-and-quran-manuscripts.html
The conclusion from his books reads in part as:
‘Though Muslims may take pride in the fidelity of the preservation of this text, it does not reproduce precisely what was originally considered to be the Qur’an in the early seventh century. Because of the standardizations of the text in 653-705/33-86 AH and 936/324 AH, together with the constant pressure throughout Islamic history to have one text match their dogma, many texts which had equally good claims to containing authentic readings were suppressed and destroyed. And, because of the emphasis on oral transmission and the vagaries of Arabic as it developed, the written text was constantly vocalized in new ways which did not preserve the original vocalization. The original vocalization must have been lost very early on if it did indeed exist. While bearing testimony to the careful preservation of one particular consonantal text, the history of the transmission of the text of the Qur’an is at least as much a testament to the destruction of Qur’an material as it is to its preservation. It is also testimony to the fact that there never was one original text of the Qur’an.’
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Leftruinigcanada, ï read all the garbages concocted by Christian evangelist liars in the West, but were dismissed by intellectuals even in the same West as rubbish
LeftisruiningCanada says
Yes, well, you have certainly addressed and refuted everything i referred you to, well done.
Astounding.
gravenimage says
Notice that Ibrahim itace muhammed never actually says what these “lies” are.
And he himself has affirmed that Muslims can “marry” children, rape Infidel women and use them as sex slaves, and can slaughter any unbelievers who don’t submit to Islam.
And here, he is affirming that Muslims can murder gay people. *Ugh*.
gravenimage says
The absurd Ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:
R Russel, you lied.Not even a single word has been changed or altered in the Quran over the Centuries. Tell me Who made thé change or alteration after the departure of holy prophet muhammad, and which verse or sura (chapter) that have been subtituted and by whom ?
……………………………
Of course, there are early versions of the Qur’an that differ somewhat from the accepted text today.
“World’s oldest Qur’an supports claim that an existing text was changed to create the Islamic holy book”‘
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/12/worlds-oldest-quran-supports-claim-that-an-existing-text-was-changed-to-create-the-islamic-holy-book
There is even a Hadith about the Qur’anic verse about stoning having been eaten by a sheep.
More:
You are too ignorant about the concept of ‘Naskh(Abrogation’).
Naskh does’nt mean change or alteration. It means the ruling in one verse is superseded by ruling in another verse to qualify the application of that verse so superseded qualified …
……………………………
Muhammed changing his mind does not mean in any way that parts of the Qur’an have not been lost or altered.
It is well known that Muhammed in Medina became much more violent, and so abrogated some of the less savage parts of the Qur’an. Civilized people would not, in fact, brag about this.
Rob says
Arthur Wagner didn’t leave the Protestant faith, he left Christianity. His moving to a more Biblical Christian church apparently wasn’t good enough. My take is that anyone who can switch from believing in the salvation message of Christ to a belief system which denies Christ’s mission(and the entire concept of salvation) was never more than a Christian in name only – Islam is welcome to him.
janwoG says
May be there is a love of a Muslima behind that? Besides that there are Evangelical churchrs faithful to the bible even in Germany.