Strictly speaking, Islam Hassan is wrong: Muhammad married Aisha when she was six, and consummated the marriage (i.e., raped her) when she was nine. Hassan’s admission is unusual, as usually Islamic apologists in the West deny that Aisha was nine at all. The principal reason why this matters is because Muhammad is the “excellent example” for Muslims (Qur’an 33:21), to be imitated in all things. And so child marriage, which means the physical and psychological abuse of young girls, is widespread in some areas of the Islamic world.
Turkey’s directorate of religious affairs recently stated that the legal age of girls for marriage was nine. The Diyanet wouldn’t approve of child marriage if it weren’t Islamic, as it explains in its own defense. And child marriage has abundant attestation in Islamic tradition and law.
“Islam has no age barrier in marriage and Muslims have no apology for those who refuse to accept this” — Ishaq Akintola, professor of Islamic Eschatology and Director of Muslim Rights Concern, Nigeria
“There is no minimum marriage age for either men or women in Islamic law. The law in many countries permits girls to marry only from the age of 18. This is arbitrary legislation, not Islamic law.” — Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-‘Ubeidi, Iraqi expert on Islamic law
There is no minimum age for marriage and that girls can be married “even if they are in the cradle.” — Dr. Salih bin Fawzan, prominent cleric and member of Saudi Arabia’s highest religious council
“Islam does not forbid marriage of young children.” — Pakistan’s Council of Islamic Ideology
Hadiths that Muslims consider authentic record that Muhammad’s favorite wife, Aisha, was six when Muhammad wedded her and nine when he consummated the marriage:
“The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)” (Bukhari 7.62.88).
Another tradition has Aisha herself recount the scene:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Bukhari 5.58.234).
Muhammad was at this time fifty-four years old.
In April 2011, the Bangladesh Mufti Fazlul Haque Amini declared that those trying to pass a law banning child marriage in that country were putting Muhammad in a bad light: “Banning child marriage will cause challenging the marriage of the holy prophet of Islam, [putting] the moral character of the prophet into controversy and challenge.” He added a threat: “Islam permits child marriage and it will not be tolerated if any ruler will ever try to touch this issue in the name of giving more rights to women.” The Mufti said that 200,000 jihadists were ready to sacrifice their lives for any law restricting child marriage.
Likewise the influential website Islamonline.com in December 2010 justified child marriage by invoking not only Muhammad’s example, but the Qur’an as well:
The Noble Qur’an has also mentioned the waiting period [i.e. for a divorced wife to remarry] for the wife who has not yet menstruated, saying: “And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women, if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated” [Qur’an 65:4]. Since this is not negated later, we can take from this verse that it is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a prepubescent girl. The Qur’an is not like the books of jurisprudence which mention what the implications of things are, even if they are prohibited. It is true that the prophet entered into a marriage contract with A’isha when she was six years old, however he did not have sex with her until she was nine years old, according to al-Bukhari.
Other countries make Muhammad’s example the basis of their laws regarding the legal marriageable age for girls. Article 1041 of the Civil Code of the Islamic Republic of Iran states that girls can be engaged before the age of nine, and married at nine: “Marriage before puberty (nine full lunar years for girls) is prohibited. Marriage contracted before reaching puberty with the permission of the guardian is valid provided that the interests of the ward are duly observed.”
According to Amir Taheri in The Spirit of Allah: Khomeini and the Islamic Revolution (pp. 90-91), Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini himself married a ten-year-old girl when he was twenty-eight. Khomeini called marriage to a prepubescent girl “a divine blessing,” and advised the faithful to give their own daughters away accordingly: “Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.” When he took power in Iran, he lowered the legal marriageable age of girls to nine, in accord with Muhammad’s example.
“Cleveland Imam Islam Hassan: The Prophet Muhammad Was Not Marrying a Child When He Married 9-Year-Old ‘Aisha,” MEMRI, November 3, 2017:
Speaking at the Islamic Center of Cleveland, Ohio, Egyptian-American imam Islam Hassan defended the Prophet Muhammad’s marriage to ‘Aisha, mentioning various Christian personalities, from St. Augustine to the kings of England, who, he claimed, had taken child brides, and saying that the Prophet’s marriage was in line with the customs and traditions of his day. Islam Hassan, who served as the Imam of the Islamic Society of Vermont for the past seven years, further said that the age of puberty was between 9-15 years and concluded that ‘Aisha had already reached puberty at the age of nine, when she was married off to the Prophet. “So he did not marry a child,” he said. The address was his debut appearance as the imam of the Islamic Center of Cleveland, and it was posted on the center’s YouTube channel on November 3.
concerned canadian says
This is one type of story I would love the MSM to talk about.
BUT THEY WONT.
I would love the whole religion to be on trial.
Passage by passage.
Decree by decree.
LETS SEE IT !!!
mortimer says
Canuck, there has already been a lawsuit brought against the Koran in India in 1985.
Chandmal Chopra of Calcutta, on March 29, 1985, filed a Writ of Petition in the Calcutta High Court stating that publication of the Quran infringes Sections 153A and 295A of the I.P.C. because it incites violence, disturbs public tranquility, promotes, on grounds of religion, feelings of enmity, hatred and ill-will between different religious communities, and insults other religions or religious beliefs of other communities in India’. He also requested a ruling nisi against the Government of West Bengal ‘to show cause as to why a writ of mandamus be not issued to it directing it to declare each copy of Quran whether in the original Arabic or in any of the languages as forfeited to the Government’ in terms of Section 95 of the Cr.P.C.
The government of West Bengal was in a panic and trumped a technicality through which they postponed and dismissed the application… without a trial.
I believe that a crack of team of LAWYERS well-funded could use the HATE-SPEECH LAWS in SEVERAL COUNTRIES (e.g. Germany) to bring the Koran under judgement as violating said HATE-SPEECH LAWS. We must get together a TEAM OF LAWYERS WHO ARE GIVEN AS MUCH TIME AS THEY NEED TO GET A LEGAL BAN ON THE KORAN. This CAN be done. It should be done.
Roderick MacUalraig says
I never heard about that event. Thanks for posting.
gravenimage says
If the Qur’an *were* banned, dhimmi authorities would likely just arrest people like Robert Spencer and myself (I am reading the Qur’an for the fifth time right now). Muslims would flout such a law with impunity.
J D S says
More reasons to destroy this unGodly so called religion….
What is wrong with our governments leaders…….Get busy legislating Islam out of existence.
RichardL says
If, a non-Muslim in Austria points out that the profit of islam was a pederast, she goes to prison. If a Muslim says it, it’s ok.
mortimer says
Richard, is it not ABSURD… not WHAT is said, but WHO has a right to say it.
THIS IS CALLED DHIMMITUDE. A DHIMMI is not allowed even to SPEAK about Islam, let alone to CRITIQUE Islam.
This is the imposition of a DE FACTO blasphemy law against NON-MULIMS.
THOU SHALT NOT CONDEMN THE IDEOLOGY THAT WISHES TO PERSECUTE AND CRUSH YOU.
gravenimage says
Here’s this appalling story:
http://gatesofvienna.net/2011/11/alleged-austrian-justice/
Johnny Cuyana says
FYI: did a short check of what this imam is “all about” … and, I found that this dim-witted, IMO, Vermont newspaper, from the USA location from where this Imam will now be leaving … in order to take his anti-freedom death cult message to Cleveland, OH, did not disappoint with a retelling of the disgusting “dhimmi” notions and details as held by those Vermont locals. Read ’em and weep.
http://www.colchestersun.com/imam-hassan-to-leave-mosque/Imam Hassan to leave mosque
By Michaela Halnon | Jun 28, 2017 | NEWS | 0 |
Imam Hassan to leave mosque
Imam Islam Hassan of Colchester, the first full-time leader of the Islamic Society of Vermont at Fort Ethan Allen, is set to leave later this week for a new job in Ohio. The imam helped lead the mosque’s expansion. (File photo by Michaela Halnon)
Imam Islam Hassan of Colchester, the first full-time leader of the Islamic Society of Vermont at Fort Ethan Allen, is set to leave later this week for a new job in Ohio. The imam helped lead the mosque’s expansion. (File photo by Michaela Halnon)
Imam Islam Hassan, the first full-time leader of the Islamic Society of Vermont in Colchester, is stepping down from his post later this week for a new job in Ohio.
“The environment here was very lovely. Everyone was sad that I’m leaving, but that’s something good,” Hassan said inside the mosque Monday, bouncing his 5-month-old daughter on his knee. “[When] you leave with this kind of feeling around you, that’s better than when you leave because of a problem.”
Hassan, a Colchester resident originally from Egypt, first came to the ISVT from Minnesota in 2010 as a volunteer, one of many that cycled through to help lead services temporarily.
At that time, the society owned just a third of its current Fort Ethan Allen space, first purchased in the late ’90s. Before then, Hassan said many members gathered in small groups to pray in private homes or at area churches.
Mosque leadership extended a paid offer to Hassan in 2011, and in 2014, he launched a capital campaign that successfully raised the funds needed to purchase the remaining two-thirds of the building. The mosque is one of only two in the state.
Hassan said the center’s layout is morphing to better accommodate the membership. Eventually, the prayer space will be moved exclusively to the second floor, allowing the ground floor to be used as a community meeting space.
About 250 Muslims pray at least weekly at ISVT, but on Sunday, Hassan led more than 1,000 Muslims in an outdoor prayer during Eid al-Fitr, a celebration of breaking the fast held at the conclusion of Ramadan.
It was the imam who orchestrated the festival’s move outside last year, hoping the peaceful public display might demystify the religious rituals for those unfamiliar with Islam.
“Some people have the idea that Muslims are isolating themselves, they pray behind closed doors, no one is welcome in the mosque,” Hassan said. “Of course, that’s totally wrong.”
Hassan said the community has fostered strong relationships with Colchester, Essex and Burlington police departments. He’s forged connections with local religious leaders, too, and said many told him they had no idea non-Muslims could sit in on services.
“We just want to tell the people that we are a part of your community,” the imam said. “Everyone is welcome to join us.”
That camaraderie proved especially important after the November presidential election. While most in the community were supportive, Hassan said the mosque received a hateful letter.
When he showed it to his clergy group, more than 200 non-Muslims attended the next service in a show of solidarity. So many came, in fact, Hassan said regular worshippers couldn’t find a space to park.
Even today, it’s not unusual for Hassan to find a fruit basket or bouquet of flowers left on the mosque doorstep when he leaves for the evening.
“It was beautiful the way everyone showed support,” Hassan said. “[We] turned to being thankful for what happened, in terms of the result.”
Still, the imam said many other American mosques have not seen the same kindness. His colleagues have shared photos of vandalized walls and surveillance video of a burglar shredding copies of the Quran, the Islamic religious text.
That’s why Hassan said welcoming visitors and educating folks about the small-but-growing Muslim population is so important. Last summer, he spoke before the Essex Rotary Club, answering questions that ranged from playful to challenging.
He hopes to apply the same principles as an imam in Ohio. There, his 7-year-old daughter can also attend a private Islamic school. Though Hassan currently helps teach a weekly course for youth members, full-time academic studies are not an option currently available for Muslim youth in Vermont.
In the meantime, the Hassan said mosque leadership would continue to interview candidates for his replacement. With a much larger operation than ever before, it quickly became clear another full-time imam would need to take the reigns.
“We don’t want to have a state that has racial discrimination or any religious-based discrimination,” Hassan said. “We want to have a state [where] people live together in harmony. That will push the state forward.”
gravenimage says
Thanks for your research.
And this Muslim thug has daughters who are 5 and 7–so he may well be “marrying” them off to old pedophiles in just a few years. *Ugh*.
Bob Carrillo says
This cultural aberration missed the “Age of Enlightenment” I believe.. The Neanderthal culture were more civilized..
mortimer says
Bob, Islam is a BRONZE-AGE culture.
Eur says
Fucking coranimals.
Islamic mirror says
A Muslim once said that Mohammed’s lust for his daughter-in-law and his other misdemeanors like raping slaves and young girls and doing fellatio on young boys was alright because King David had done worse. He went on to explain that the prophet king had seduced a woman and impregnated her, before sending her husband to his death.
When I explained that David’s behaviour had attracted a curse from his god that ‘the sword will never move away from your family’
and that Mohammed’s shameful behaviour had only attracted a pat on the shoulder from his pagan god Satan allah, the devout Muslim just stopped replying to me
• When daud repent from his sin when he makes big sin. Muhammad never
• slam – allows THIGHING and even sodomy of infants….sick isn’t it quite how dirty religions are, but mohammed was a sic deviant, a pedo/rapist/necrophile/liar/thief/slavetaker and murderer of innocents
POINT#1) YOU ARE BRAINWASHED BY EVIL QURAN, WHICH MADE YOU TO BELIEVE BLINDLY, THAT IT WAS WRITTEN BY MUHAMMAD’S ALLAH. BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE QURAN BLINDLY, YOU BELIEVE MUHAMMAD’S SEXUAL IMMORALITY WITH LOT OF WOMEN, BELIEVING NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE QURAN BLINDLY, YOU BELIEVE THAT YOUR ALLAH, LIKE PROSTITUTES SUPPLIED WOMEN TO MUHAMMAD TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM, SEE SURAH 33:50, 33:37 ETC. AND JUSTIFY BY YOURSELF. TRUE HOLY GOD CANNOT SUPPLY WOMEN FOR SEXUAL PLEASURE TO ANYBODY.
MUHAMMAD MADE HIS OWN ALLAH TO MEET HIS SEXUAL LUST AND CREATED ISLAM TO FOOL MUSLIMS AND TAKE THEM INTO HELL AT JUDGMENT DAY.
We all know now that every Muslim MUST protect Islam Allah and his prophet Mohammad with whatever means they have. Cheating, conning lying and deceiving the non-believers or the doubters is a positive & welcomed action, the next stage is threats, bullying & terrorizing the Kuffar (non believers) in whichever way is necessary. Muslims are full of excuses and justification for their pathetic & immoral actions. However very few Muslims will stand up against this evil as questioning Islam is not part of the culture ,Out of context, weak hadith , not in Arabic ,culture ,Im offended
These are the 5 pillars of being in denial of Islam
Published on Dec 2012
Fatwas about Thighing (mufa’khathat)
Fatwa, reference number 1809: “Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the one after whom there is no [further] prophet.
After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question presented to the grand Mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad Al-Shemary, the question forwarded to the committee by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/8/1421 (Islamic calendar). The inquirer asked the following:
It has become wide spread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children (mufa’khathat literally translated means “placing between the thighs” which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child). What is the opinion of scholars knowing full well that the prophet, the peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, also practiced the “thighing” of Aisha – the mother of believers – may Allah be please with her.
After the committee studied the issue, they gave the following reply:
It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kufar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed his [male] member between her thighs and massaged it softly, as the apostle of Allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers.”
Fatwa: “It is not illegal for an adult male to ‘thigh’ or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his male member between her thighs, and to kiss her.”
-Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini’s, “Tahrir Al wasila,” p. 241, issue number 12
Aisha’s innocence at 9: “Narrated ‘Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for ‘Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)”
-Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151
More information from the texts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3k8Rc… (2:35 talks about a little girl)
Category People & Blog Licence Standard YouTube Licence
Raja says
Islamic Mirror, Thanks for the invaluable post…
lebel says
I am starting to understand the problem here. Jihadwatchers believe everything other jihadwatchers say as long as it confirms their pre-existing belief (Islam is evil).
So if a jihadwatcher says that Muslims are commanded to sodomize dogs, then they would just believe it. It’s great, you can literally make up anything you want.
StellaSaidSo says
‘…you can literally make up anything you want.’
Why not? That’s exactly what your vile paedophile ‘prophet’ Mohammed did.
And 1400 years later, idiots like you still believe his bollock-brained nonsense.
Dude must be laughing his head off.
And yes, ISLAM IS EVIL.
Roderick MacUalraig says
I notice you’re not refuting anything at all. What EXACTLY has anyone made up here? Can you point to any errors in Mr. Spencer’s writings? We’re all waiting.
gravenimage says
The dishonest lebel wrote:
I am starting to understand the problem here. Jihadwatchers believe everything other jihadwatchers say as long as it confirms their pre-existing belief (Islam is evil).
So if a jihadwatcher says that Muslims are commanded to sodomize dogs, then they would just believe it. It’s great, you can literally make up anything you want.
…………………………….
This is ludicrous–there is nothing in the texts of Islam that tells Musims to sodomize dogs (there are passages that show Muhammed and his companions *slaughtering* dogs, of course, but that is another matter).
The idea that pedophilia in Islam is just as false as the lie about sodomizing dogs is ludicrous, though–where did Imam Hassan get the idea that it is fine to marry children? It was not from some poster at Jihad Watch, but from the Qur’an and Hadith and the model of the Prophet Muhammed.
And this Imam is not the only one:
“Turkey’s directorate of religious affairs says that under Islamic law, girls as young as nine can marry”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/01/turkeys-directorate-of-religious-affairs-says-that-under-islamic-law-girls-as-young-as-nine-can-marry
How did Turkey’s Directorate of Religious Affairs get this idea? From the same places as this Imam above.
“Pakistan: Senate body rejects ban on child marriage as ‘un-Islamic’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/10/pakistan-senate-body-rejects-ban-on-child-marriage-as-un-islamic
How did such an august body come to such conclusions? The same way the Imam above did.
There are many, many more examples.
lebel says
LOL at “Fatwa, reference number 1809”
Can you not tell when you’re being manipulated? this fatwa is false, it’s made up to fool people like you.
Source: Fatawa, reference number 1667
gravenimage says
Does lebel have a link to “Fatawa, reference number 1667”?
Where does this come from?
lebel says
There is no fatawa reference number 1667, thats the point.
Im glad you’re asking for links, try to be less selective next time.
In other words, when the abominable Lebel says something investigate it. And ALSO investigate when a jihadwatcher provides some info which comforts your beliefs but without any source.
I am happy to be proven wrong. It should be easy enough, Lets find an Islamic site which carries this fatwa. (the current site is a bullshit empty site http://www1.islamic-fatwa.net/?kw=Islam&KW1=islamic%20marriage&KW2=beliefs%20in%20islam). Once you prove me wrong, I will once again run out of here with my tail between my legs after having gotten my ass kicked.
gravenimage says
“Fatawa reference number 1667” was a reference lebel himself made, no one else. He does not say why he is citing Fatwas which do not exist.
It seems to be a straw man to cite a Fatwa that does not exist, and then claim to be correct when no one can find it.
I could similarly cite “Fatawa reference number 1,000,000,069”–which also likely does not exist. That does not prove anything, except that I am pulling supposed Fatwas out of thin air.
And lebel dishonestly keeps referring to ‘getting his ass kicked’–even though I have never once said this. At least he has stopped putting this in quotes, as though he quoting me.
In any case, whatever the case re “thighing” specifically, there is no doubt that Muslims marry children at least as young as nine on the model of the “Prophet” Muhammed–pretending this is not true is simply ludicrous.
lebel’s implication that there have never been Fatwas enjoining marrying children is, of course, quite false.
Here is Islam Q & A, the most widely read Islamic site in English:
Fatwa 178318: Child marriage in Islam is subject to the condition that it serve a clear and real interest
https://islamqa.info/en/178318
“The scholars are unanimously agreed that the father may arrange a marriage for his young daughter without consulting her. The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah when she was six years old…
It is not prescribed to arrange a marriage for a young girl unless there is a clear and real interest to be served by doing so…”
Of course, that “clear and real interest” may be selling her off to a pedophile.
gravenimage says
True–King David’s actions were considered *anything* but lauditory–would we could say the same of the “Prophet” Muhammed’s.
lebel says
“Muhammad married Aisha when she was six, and consummated the marriage (i.e., raped her)”
So at what age would you NOT qualify a marriage as rape 1400 years ago? 13? 12? 10? Does it have to be in line with contemporary US law and do we apply current laws retroactively to all history? what is the cut-off point? 2000 years?
Let me guess, it’s only rape when Muslims do it. Just as conquest is only evil when Muslims partake in it.
(the reality of course is that it was not unusual for girls to be married so young, The evidence can be seen in the age of consent law of the West as recently as the 19th century. )
Jim says
The difference is that modern law progressed. Islamic law will not progress therefore it is still legal for child marriage and other pedia activities..if you would start preaching a progressive ideology maybe you would not get bashed as much as you do for posting proislamic content on an antijijad website. Fly away on your donkey…
lebel says
Child marriage is an issue in the Islamic world, I agree. Having said that, the age of consent in several Muslim countries is comparable to modern (western) law. One could make the claim that these laws are un-islamic but it would not change the fact that their laws have also progressed.
For your information, I prefer camels. And yes, I don’t mean just for flying.
gravenimage says
Child marriage is “an issue”? Notice lebel does not say it is a negative issue. But then, why would he?
Eur says
Muhammad is a model of behavior for Muslims, that is the problem. How the hell can Muslims love a warlord, a dictator, a religious theocratic leader, a slaveholder, a pedophile? It is amazing. There is no place for Muhammad to excuse him. If God exists, he/she/it would never choose a military conqueror as his/her/its prophet.
StellaSaidSo says
+1
lebel says
He chose Moses (according to Jews, Christians and Muslims), heard of him? We don’t talk about him much because he makes the whole God of Love thing a bit harder to defend.
gravenimage says
Of course, the Muslim “Musa” is nothing like the Moses of the Bible, as lebel no doubt knows.
Moreover, while Jews and Christians respect Moses, he has never been cited as the “perfect man” worthy of emulation by them. Would that you could say the same with the “Prophet” Muhammed re Muslims.
In fact, God himself is described as being displeased with some of Moses’s actions, and he was not allowed to enter the promised land as a result.
Why does lebel assume we do not know this?
Eur says
Musa and Moses are not exactly the same. Anyway, the only Moses I have in my life as a role model … is my grandfather. Westerners, at least Europeans, do not have biblical Moses as a historical figure … no one studies him as if he were historical … in fact, most doubt his existence. You only have to read Sinueh the Egyptian, an Egyptian tale of thousands of years to realize the similarities … Moses is probably an invented myth, never existed. In addition, in the West there is much more cultural background than Christianity, nobody tries to imitate Jesus of Nazareth … One thing is the bible (nobody reads) and another is civil life. In any case, in our society the old testament is interpreted as something horrific, typical of a terrible god to be feared. I do not know how the Jews do it, but Moses has never been a model of behavior except for the ten commandments … commandments, most of which are ethically reasonable enough. Christian morality has its pillars in the ten commandments … but the culmination is the sermon of the mountain … explained by Jesus of Nazareth. That sermon … is totally incompatible with Islamic morality.
Roderick MacUalraig says
Why are you defending kid touchers, lebel?
StellaSaidSo says
I suspect that Lebel knows that Islam is a crock of sh*t, but he is afraid to free himself from it. He tries to shore up his belief by defending the most egregious aspects of the vile ideology – paedophilia, slavery, rape, the slaughter of Jews, etc – but the harder he tries, the more desperate and irrational he becomes. He always scuttles off when asked WHY he defends the indefensible.
lebel says
End of debate right there. One of the reasons why it’s very hard to have normal arguments on jihadwatch is that it rapidly descends into this kind of nonsense.
Disagree with me on this issue? you’re a pedophile defender
Don’t agree with me that Muhammad hated jews? you are an anti-semite
Don’t agree with me that Islam calls for the death of all non-Muslims? you are an enabler of mass murder
Roderick MacUalraig says
I think the debate ends when someone makes any excuse whatsoever for a pedophile’s foulness.
The loser being the one that made the excuse for it, obviously.
Face it, Pisslam is a rotten, stinking pile of shit.
gravenimage says
lebel seems especially enraged that good people here are oppososed to pedophilia. Quite telliing…
lebel says
Yes, that’s because I am defending kid-touching.
gravenimage says
lebel hopes that readers here will simply consider this so outrageous that they assume it is not the case.
But notice that despite his sneering, that lebel has *never* condemned pedophilia–not on this thread, and no where else that I have ever seen.
In fact, he has never condemned any Muslim barbarism that I have seen.
Gjallarhornet says
Looks like this imam will be hanked in by all the muslim lobby groups for a reprimand pretty fast. There they’ll tell him: “Dont tell the kaffirs this! Lie, you fool! What kind of imam shcool did you go to? By allah, you don’t even know the basic technics for taquia”.
In other words: the imam slipped up … and revealed the truth.
lebel says
There is no slip up, you can find tons of Islamic sites who say the exact same thing. Don’t believe me? do a google search.
lebel says
by the way, this is the post that you had a problem with? my disagreeing with you and asking you to do a google search to see for yourself?
What the fuck do you want exactly? you have everyone else on this site more or less in agreement with you on Islam. You have ONE or TWO people who disagree with you on this site and you’re complaining?
gravenimage says
Why is lebel ranting at Gjallarhornet, who didn’t even address him?
As for Taqiyya, what lebel does not tell you is that Muslims only use this when they fear that Infidels may oppose them. If Muslims feel sufficiently emboldened–as it appears this Imam is–then they do nothing to hide their vicious intent.
Jan Aage Jeppesen says
CONFUSION ABOUT AGE Of CONSENT
Is there as fundamental difference between Islam and Western Christianity when it comes to the question of age of consent to be lawfully married?
That depends on how Muslim scholars interpretate the Quran and Hadiths.
Our tradition based on canonical law and British common law, until modern times, is unambiguous and clear:
“Betrothals [sponsalia] require seven full years in the contracting parties. The marriageable age is fourteen full years in males and twelve full years in females, under penalty of nullity (unless natural puberty supplies the want of years). Marriages void because of the absence of legal or natural puberty are held as sponsalia, inducing thereby impediment of “public decorum” (Cap. 14, tit. de despon. impub., X, 4, 2). Civil codes generally require a more advanced age than the canonical. Dispensations, however, as to the required ages are expressly granted by France, Italy, Belgium, Holland, Roumania, and Russia.”
(Catholic encyclopedia, 1907)
“By the common law the age at which minors were capable of marrying, known as the age of consent, was fixed at fourteen years for males and twelve years for females. Marriages under the age of seven years for both were void, but between seven and the age of consent the parties could contract an imperfect marriage, which was voidable but not necessarily void. The marriage of parties who had attained the age of consent was valid even though they lacked parental consent, until in England the marriage act of 1753 declared such marriages void.”
(Catholic encyclopedia, 1907)
So if the child marriage of Muhammad to a six years old girl, was, by our definition, a betrothal and the marriage was consummated when the girl was 9 years old and had reached puberty, then the difference to earlier Western tradition was insignificant.
The main argument against Islamic marriage practice involving pre-pubescent girls refers to Quran 65:4, which impliedly allow this practice as the verse does not specify any minimum age of consent.
However, the Quran, in at least one passage, presupposes that there is an age which a girl must attain before she can be considered marriageable:
“And try orphans (as regards their intelligence) until they reach the age of marriage; if then you find sound judgement in them, release their property to them, but consume it not wastefully, and hastily fearing that they should grow up, and whoever amongst guardians is rich, he should take no wages, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable (according to his work). And when you release their property to them, take witness in their presence; and Allah is All Sufficient in taking account. (Sura 4:6).
Note that the expression “until they reach the age of marriage” takes it for granted that there is an age that girls have to reach before a man can marry them. Presumably, that age would be puberty, a point accepted by Muslim expositors.
So there seems not to be any fundamental theological obstacle in Islam to abolish child marriage because the Quran is the primary source in Islamic law, and Hadith is always secondary. Age of consent could be interpreted as puberty, 12, 15 or even 18 years thus bringing Islam in line with present day Western norms.
It was disturbing to read about a recent case in France where a man had a sexual relationship with a girl aged 11 years and 10 month. Unlike many countries, France does not have a legal age under which a minor cannot agree to a sexual relationship — although the country’s top court has ruled that children aged five and under cannot consent. Lawyers for the suspect argued that the girl was consenting and aware of what she was doing, while lawyers for the girl have said she was simply too young and confused to resist.
Muslims must be shocked or confirmed in their belief in child marriage:
https://www.google.dk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj1jta81rXZAhXI16QKHX-lCYYQFgguMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fapnews.com%2Fffa6257839444bcfb3797d7349a33bb8&usg=AOvVaw0dNQ9TYTuQq9zXs45SBBb8
lebel says
Here is a well-thought out posts complete with sources and a balanced approach to the issue. You sure you’re on the right site?
In any case, happy to discuss this further with you.
Jan Aage Jeppesen says
No, I am not sure.
Robert Spencer tries to fool the readers by using an anachronistic argument – describing and condemning the past by using present day Western norms.
If Muhammad was a pædofile rapist for having sex with a nine old girl he was lawfully married to – according to Islamic law – then so were scores of Christians who married girls between 12 and 15 in accordance with canonical law.
This is not an objective, rational and sober way to discus a subject, it is populist nonsence of the worst kind!
Having read many of Spencers excellent books about Islam I knows he poses the capacity of being objective and rational. Robert, dont lower yourself to a level usually found on the extreme left.
Robert Spencer says
In reality, the point I’ve made countless times is that because of Muhammad’s status as the foremost moral exemplar for Muslims, many Muslims think pedophilia is normal, and behave accordingly. The point is not to judge Muhammad by applying modern-day norms. In fact, if you had read my book “The Truth About Muhammad,” which you clearly haven’t, you would know that I reject doing that on precisely this issue. The point, rather, is to judge present-day Muslim pedophilia, which is rampant in Afghanistan and elsewhere, and which justifies itself by invoking Muhammad’s example.
gravenimage says
Exactly, Mr. Spencer.
Jan Aage Jeppesen says
Reply to Robert Spencer:
You have indeed made the point in your books “not to judge Muhammad by applying modern-day norms.” So why are you doing it this article saying Muhammad “raped her” – Aisha?
In your reply you fall into the same anachronistic pit by saying:
“The point, rather, is to judge present-day Muslim pedophilia, which is rampant in Afghanistan and elsewhere, and which justifies itself by invoking Muhammad’s example.”
Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Pedophilia is deskriptive and not a moral or legal term and having a sexual attraction to children is not illegal.
The prevalence of pedophilia in the general population is not known, but is estimated to be lower than 5% among adult men.
So nobody can say if “pedophilia is rampant in Afghanistan and elsewhere” or if Muslim men marrying prepubescent girls do so because they are pedophiles or because of religion and tradition. We can assume that 5% of them do so because they are pedophiles.
You see how easy it is to mix the categories and write nonsense?
I had hoped that your reply would deal with my main argument, that sura 4:6 presupposes that there is an age which a girl must attain before she can be considered marriageable: Because the Quran is the primary source to Islamic law, and the sunna always is secondary, there is a way to bring sharia in line with modern Wester norms.
The example of Muhammads marriage to Aisha supports the existence of a marriageable age for girls in Islam.
Considering how few Islamic countries with no minimum age for marriage there are, and how many that have puberty or a more advanced age – typically 12 or 15 years – in the civil code, it is possible to bring those countries closer to Western norms.
Similar to what happened in Christianity when canonical law recently changed the marriage age for girls from 12 to 16.
Cordially,
Jan
Robert Spencer says
Qur’an 65:4 assumes that prepubescent girls are being married and divorced. So much for 4:6 setting a minimum age for marriage. It doesn’t. It just says there is one. It could be age one, as one imam has said.
gravenimage says
I see that Muslim apologist lebel is much in agreement with Muslim apolgist Jan Aage Jeppesen. What a surprise! sarc/off
gravenimage says
apologist
Jan Aage Jeppesen says
Reply to Robert spencer who wrote:
“Qur’an 65:4 assumes that prepubescent girls are being married and divorced. So much for 4:6 setting a minimum age for marriage. It doesn’t. It just says there is one. It could be age one, as one imam has said.”
How many one year old girls are able to manage their own estate and money?
The theological question is what to do when two Quranic verses – 65:4 and 4:6 – which contradict each other?
Some scholars would say that 65:4 abrogate 4:6 because 65:4 was revealed a little later than 4:6. Most scholars reject that the principle of abrogation refers to the Quran but claim that what is abrogated are revelations to prophets who lived before Muhammad. If they are in logical conflict with the Quran the latter abrogates them.
If abrogation will not solve the problem then the most reliable Hadiths can be used. As the example of Muhammads marriage to 9 year old Aisha set a minimum age for consummating a marriage this point to let 4:6 take præference over 65:4.
However unlikely it could be claimed that Aisha just have had her first menstruation, as nothing is impossible for Allah, thus making puberty the mariable age. On average, girls begin puberty around ages 10–11.
Saying that Aisha was atypical 4:6 could be interpreted to setting the mariable age to 11 to 12 or even older taking the mental maturity into consideration as this verse open up for doing.
Some Muslim scholars do argue along the lines I have shown, and I think it not vise to reject their efforts by blindly pointing to 65:4 as the last word in this matter.
It is clearly not!
Cordially,
Jan
Robert Spencer says
You ask: “How many one year old girls are able to manage their own estate and money?”
Presumably you’re basing that on this from 4:6: “Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, anticipating that they will grow up.”
That’s a conditional phrase: “if you perceive in them sound judgment…” It doesn’t say or imply that if you don’t perceive in them sound judgment, you shouldn’t marry them. Also, that bit about “anticipating that they will grow up” blows a rather large hole in your argumentation. You’re either falling for smooth deceivers, or are one yourself; I neither know nor care which.
gravenimage says
Jan Aage Jeppesen wrote:
CONFUSION ABOUT AGE Of CONSENT
Is there as fundamental difference between Islam and Western Christianity when it comes to the question of age of consent to be lawfully married?
That depends on how Muslim scholars interpretate the Quran and Hadiths.
………………………….
Muslims all over the world affirm that the perfect man of Islam married a child, and laws in many Muslim countries follow his model.
More:
So if the child marriage of Muhammad to a six years old girl, was, by our definition, a betrothal and the marriage was consummated when the girl was 9 years old and had reached puberty, then the difference to earlier Western tradition was insignificant.
………………………….
Of course, the idea that a 9-year-old child has “reached puberty” is an Islamic canard.
Moreover, it is a recent one–Islamic texts, in fact, affirm that little Aisha still played with dolls when she was raped by the “Prophet”:
Narrated Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.
–Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Only prepubescent girls played with dolls. And she was playing on a swing when the women came for her who turned her over to Muhammed to be raped:
‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them.
–Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3309.
More:
The main argument against Islamic marriage practice involving pre-pubescent girls refers to Quran 65:4, which impliedly allow this practice as the verse does not specify any minimum age of consent.
………………………….
That’s part of it–this Sura specifies that Muslims can marry and have sex with little girls who have not begun menstruation. A little girl who does not menstruate is, by definition, prepubescent. Then, of course, there are the Hadiths, that affirm that little Aisha was 9 when handed over to the pedophile “Prophet”.
More:
However, the Quran, in at least one passage, presupposes that there is an age which a girl must attain before she can be considered marriageable:
“And try orphans (as regards their intelligence) until they reach the age of marriage; if then you find sound judgement in them, release their property to them, but consume it not wastefully, and hastily fearing that they should grow up, and whoever amongst guardians is rich, he should take no wages, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable (according to his work). And when you release their property to them, take witness in their presence; and Allah is All Sufficient in taking account. (Sura 4:6).
………………………….
Given that the previous Sura Jan Aage Jeppesen cited notes that the little girl can be below the age when she has begun menstruation, that age can be pretty damn young.
More:
Note that the expression “until they reach the age of marriage” takes it for granted that there is an age that girls have to reach before a man can marry them. Presumably, that age would be puberty, a point accepted by Muslim expositors.
………………………….
Is the repulsive Jan Aage Jeppesen pretending that a little six-year-old child has reached the age of puberty? How utterly grotesque.
More:
So there seems not to be any fundamental theological obstacle in Islam to abolish child marriage because the Quran is the primary source in Islamic law, and Hadith is always secondary. Age of consent could be interpreted as puberty, 12, 15 or even 18 years thus bringing Islam in line with present day Western norms.
………………………….
What dishonest claptrap. As he himself notes, the Qur’an says that Muslims can marry little children who have not begun menstruation. Pretending the “filthy Infidels” can convince pious Muslims otherwise is ludicrous.
And many Muslim clerics specifically resist any minimum age for marriage, because that disparages the model of the “perfect man” Muhammed, who married a child at six and began raping her at nine.
“Pakistan: Senate body rejects ban on child marriage as ‘un-Islamic’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/10/pakistan-senate-body-rejects-ban-on-child-marriage-as-un-islamic
“Malaysia: Muslims stall reform of child marriage laws”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/12/malaysia-muslims-stall-reform-of-child-marriage-laws
There are many more examples.
More:
It was disturbing to read about a recent case in France where a man had a sexual relationship with a girl aged 11 years and 10 month. Unlike many countries, France does not have a legal age under which a minor cannot agree to a sexual relationship — although the country’s top court has ruled that children aged five and under cannot consent. Lawyers for the suspect argued that the girl was consenting and aware of what she was doing, while lawyers for the girl have said she was simply too young and confused to resist.
………………………….
The repellent Jan Aage Jeppesen is pretending that it is fine for pedophiles to have sex with six-year-old girls in France, but this is utterly false. In fact, the man in the case he himself cites was charged with rape:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/french-man-11-year-old-girl-consensual-sex-abuse-montmagny-a8209586.html
More:
Muslims must be shocked or confirmed in their belief in child marriage:
https://www.google.dk/url?…
………………………….
What rot. The idea that a case in France is going to influenced by civilized Infidels charging a man with the rape of an 11-year-old is, of course, entirely false.
Firstly, Muslims marry little girls on the model of the “Prophet” Muhammed having done the same.
Then, Jan Aage Jeppesen is pretending that this behavior is fine in France–but it is not. This man is being charged with rape–that is not happening with child marriage in Dar-al-Islam.
gravenimage says
Cleveland: Imam admits Muhammad married 9-year-old girl, justifies the marriage
………………………
Damned pedophile. His calumny of St. Augustine is especially sickening.
MFritz says
You don’t have to travel to Iran and Saudi Arabia etc. anymore to see fgm, honour killings and child abuse performed in the name of islam. Once you let them into your country, all these crimes will be performed RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.
PRCS says
The learned Imam stated:
1.”It is totally unfair to use our guidelines, our standards, and our parameters to judge people at thousand years ago. It is really impractical. In the past, things were different than they are today. People were different than they are today. A lot of rules of Islam have changed over time.”
a. If they’re “Allah’s” rules–no, they haven’t.
b. But judging the U.S. of 400 years ago is just fine with CAIR:.
“Council on American-Islamic Relations:Tear Down Every Confederate Memorial”
“Nihad Awad, CAIR’s national executive director, urged state and local governments to erase every symbol and every vestige of Confederate history immediately.”
http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/15/council-on-american-islamic-relations-tear-down-every-confederate-memorial/
2. “In the Al-Nisa chapter of the Quran, Allah says: If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess.”
He’s lying, of course, as it is captive women whom Muslim men’s “right hands posses”.
3. “In Islam, it is forbidden to marry off any girl under the age of puberty.”
Marrying girls off to whomever the family decides is NOT one of the rules that has changed.
As always, the flock likely nodded in agreement during his entire spiel.
Robert says
He she he had sex with her when she was 9 Years Old
Who will Believe him ?
Why Muslim don’t Criticize this And Justify this Just Because they are Afraid Of Extermisiom And Terrorism Within
Which Mother Will justify this for their Daughter
Do Father Justify for their Daughters
Politicianophobia says
Western civilization has an entirely different idea of EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION–Children should be treated as children and protected from perverts. I don’t care what CAIR / The Muslim Brotherhood say, they should be outlawed.
Gjallarhornet says
Just a little something i want to say, dehors thread:
I see that this Lebel-personage has replied to me , in the usual snug-codecsending way. I will not reply this creature and encourage others to ignore as well, This is just an encouragement of course – people are free to do as they wish.
The reasons that I don’t waste time on such persons is simple. Every utterance I’ve seen from Lebel here has this ‘you are all stupid attitude’. This is the person who, if you very to meet live in debate, where you were looking forward to an honest verbal fight … would just report you as well as trying to make you feel insecure. Every language slip up you might make in the heat of the moment is for these people proof that THEY are superior, for some reason. Why be here if one thinks everybody here are lowbrows with low intelligence? There never will be nor can there be an honest exchange of opinions.
If your goal is help *build* something, my advice is not to waste time on such people. I’ve seen enough of that college smugness and the contempt that come with them to bother. I could exchange in an internet fight of course. I’m more than capable, I also know a dozen ways to say ‘fuck you’ indirectly, but I do not see the point in doing that any longer. Not if you are committed to something bigger than yourself. That is all a stupid ego-game. Concentrate on constructing, convincing or an serious debate – but with people who respect you. I got no time for this person, nor for the ones like one here raving about the ‘mithras’-cult constantly. This people are not worth your time, folks.
lebel says
“The reasons that I don’t waste time on such persons is simple. Every utterance I’ve seen from Lebel here has this ‘you are all stupid attitude’”
Have you noticed people calling me names on a consistent basis? have I ever responded in kind? no.
What you want on jihadwatch is an ISIS supporter. You need someone to comfort you in your beliefs about Islam. People who disagree with you that Islam is evil are losers, clowns, dishonest, taqqiya,
I note that you have not provided any evidence for your assertion about my utterances. No surprise, I guess asking for evidence is somehow proof that I think you’re all stupid.
StellaSaidSo says
‘People who disagree with you that Islam is evil are losers, clowns…’
Read the Koran, lebel. Then look at the behaviour that it inspires. It’s not hard to find evidence that Islam is evil. No rational person would even attempt to defend such a vile ideology.
gravenimage says
lebel wrote:
People who disagree with you that Islam is evil are losers, clowns, dishonest, taqqiya,
………………………..
This is the second interesting admission from lebel. Not long ago, he admitted that he hates Jihad Watch:
“…I am against jihadwatch because it is against ALL muslims and because it is irrational in its opposition (Iwould say hatred) of Islam. In other words, Islam is ALL bad, ALL the time.”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/01/muslim-martin-luther-tariq-ramadan-accused-of-rape-is-detained-in-paris#comment-1827840
Never mind that this is calumny against Jihad Watch, which does not hate all Muslims. And he claims that opposing violent Jihad and horrors such as child marriage are “irrational”. Sickening.
Interesting how the mask is slipping. In the past, lebel used to pretend that he was against Jihad, but that he just took issues with certain stories or with the remarks of some poster.
Of course, this was always absurd–since he never weighed in except with Muslim apologia.
And now he is saying that he disagrees that Islam is evil–including, no doubt, its appalling model of raping small girls. *Ugh*.
Politicianophobia says
There was a group of Muslim woman a few years ago, I think they were in Eritrea, they wanted to raise the marriage age to 16 but an Imam vetoed them and changed the age to 5. lebel lies.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Interesting exchanges above.
All of the age of consent/marriageability talk aside, the main point to me is that in mohammad we see a 50 year old man being sexually aroused by a 6 year old little girl.
Whatever else we want to say about the issue, that’s simply not normal or saintly behavior, and certainly not a model to be held up as perfection among men.
Not even close.