Amid all the hysteria regarding Trump and Russia, with many people calling upon Trump to denounce Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014, it is useful to regain some historical perspective. Crimea, as Michael Finch explains here, was point of contention between the jihadis of the Ottoman Empire at the Russians for many, many years. I have details about this in my new book The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS. It was settled by Russians, not Ukrainians, and Putin’s annexation was in accord with the reality that most of the people there are Russians and have been Russians for many centuries.
“Coming to Some Reality on Crimea,” by Michael Finch, American Greatness, July 16, 2018:
As President Trump sits down for his first one on one meeting with President Vladimir Putin of Russia, some history and perspective are in order.
Trump and Putin will find plenty of common ground, most significantly in fighting Jihadism and global terrorism. And while there is room for movement on the difficult issues surrounding continued talks on nuclear proliferation, missile defense, and others good diplomacy can work a deal that is in the interests of both nations. There is even room for compromise on Ukraine.
But there is one area of disagreement that, at least from one perspective, is off the table. That is the status of Crimea. It’s non negotiable for Russia. Going into this summit, it behooves everyone to understand what is at stake in terms of Crimea. First some history.
The Crimean Peninsula juts out from the bottom of Ukraine into the north shore of the Black Sea. Its critical position in the Black Sea has made it a battle ground and prized possession for Empires over three millennium. It has been colonized by Greeks, Persians, Romans, Goths, Slavs, and Steppe nomads from the Mongols and Tartars. In the mid 15th Century, Crimea became a northern outpost of the Muslim Ottoman Empire and would remain in Ottoman control for over 400 years.
The Ottomans used the Crimean Peninsula as a launch pad for raids far into Ukraine and Russia. It is estimated that well over 2 million Slavs (Ukrainians and Russians) were taken as slaves between 1500 and 1700 and sent to modern day Turkey. In fact the word “slave” traces back to the Greek word for Slav. To put some perspective on this, it is estimated that just under 400,000 black slaves were shipped from Africa to the Colonies in North America and later the independent United States. The Islamic Caliphate’s hold at the southern reaches of the Russian Empire was an existential threat, literally so for millions of Slavs.
By 1700 however, the Ottoman Empire was starting a long period of decline, while the Russian Empire, first under the reign of Peter the Great, and then under Catherine the Great, were in the ascendancy. Peter the Great in the early 18th Century had secured, through a war with Sweden, a port on the Baltic Sea, what was to become St. Petersburg. Russia however, desperately desired a warm water port. They looked South, where they had been war, on and off for centuries, against the raiding Mongol and Tartar hordes as well as the Ottoman Sultanate.
Constantinople, the great seat of the Eastern Orthodox Church, from which Russian Orthodoxy had sprung, fell in 1453 to the Ottomans. It had been a dream of Christians everywhere to return Constantinople to the Christian fold and that feeling was no more passionately held than in Russia. Moscow became the “Third Rome.”
In 1783, under Catherine the Great, Russia routed the Ottomans and secured the Crimean Peninsula. Russia had its warm water port on the Black Sea, just 339 miles to the ancient city of Constantinople. Europe from Spain to Italy, to the gates of Vienna had been fighting Islamic armies for centuries. In 1683, the Ottoman’s siege of Vienna was broken, for the next hundred years they were on their heels in the Balkans and exactly 100 years later, they lost a critical hold on the European continent and a prize that lay at the belly of Russian Empire. Crimea had fallen.
For the next 171 years, Crimea was part of the Russian Empire and later, the Soviet Union. It was in 1954 that the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev, “gifted” Crimea to Ukraine on the 300th Anniversary of the Ukrainian inclusion in the Russian Empire. At the time, of course, Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, the “gift” of Crimea went almost completely unnoted in the West. After all, there was a massive Soviet naval fleet at Sevastopol before 1954 and so it remained after the “gifting.”
When the Soviet Union collapsed, chaos reigned. Boris Yeltsin, as best he could, tried to keep the pieces together. If he had been smarter, or shrewder, he most certainly would have demanded that in recognition and acceptance of Ukraine’s independence, Crimea should be returned to Russia. Alas, he was not and he did not.
In steps Vladimir Putin, a Russian nationalist who sees the collapse of the Soviet Union as a great “catastrophe.” He lamented it not because of the fall of Communism, but because with that came the dissolution of over 30 percent of the land that had it taken the Russian Empire centuries of wars and conflict to acquire. One thing Putin does not lack is shrewdness. In 2014, seeing a weakness and passivity in the West, particularly in the person of President Barack Obama, he pounced and took Crimea in a militarily incursion into Ukraine….
jura says
LAtin Word sclavus – slave does not come from The Slav, which itself is derivated from words WORD, GLORY.
More of that: It is historically impossible that the Slavs got their name from Romans.
Ian says
Dear jura, the Oxford dictionary supports this author’s claim….
“slave definition from Oxford Dictionary of English –
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mobisystems.msdict.embedded.wireless.oxford.dictionaryofenglish
slave /sleɪv /
▸ noun (especially in the past) a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them:
they kidnapped entire towns and turned them into slaves.
…
– ORIGIN Middle English : shortening of Old French esclave, equivalent of medieval Latin sclava (feminine) ‘Slavonic (captive)’: the Slavonic peoples had been reduced to a servile state by conquest in the 9th century.”
St. Manuel II Palailogos says
Um, they probably did. Since the Romans fought against the Bulgars and other Slavic peoples in the 8th century.
steve says
That was interesting, there was a footnote in a Greek language book,somewhere in my library, that stated , The reason that Romans did not treat Jesus with much respect was because at that time the word ”Christos” denoted a slave .??
Floris Stein says
I understand that Ukraine only became an independent state right after the bolshevist revolution of 1917/1918, to wit: at the occasion of the installation of the Union of Soviet Federated Soviet Republics, the USSR. Before that, it was just another indistinguishable part of the Russian empire.
Dave says
Fact that Robert Spencer missed , 80% of Crimeans decided to join Russia after Ukranian coup supported by obama/soros including US admin.
US has no Business demanding Crimea be returned to ukraine. Even Easter Ukrainians fought to stay out of West ukraine .
Ole Pederson says
Agree. If anyone, it was the author quoted by Robert Spencer who
christianblood says
Dave posted
(..Fact that Robert Spencer missed , 80% of Crimeans decided to join Russia after Ukranian coup supported by obama/soros including US admin. US has no Business demanding Crimea be returned to ukraine..)
Well-said!
U$ helped overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine to eventually move its imperialist military to Crimea bases but it failed miserably!
Pal says
-1
Steve says
Sorry a Referendum held at gun point with pre-marked ballots does not make it valid. Most countries do not recognize it. Sorry but I lived there and now live further inside Ukraine. I watched what happened.
gravenimage says
+1
Pal says
+1
J D S says
If the Russian population OUTNUMBER the muslim population then for sure Crimea belongs to Russia ruling out any possibility otherwise….unless there is some meddling where there shouldn’t be.
Charles says
Yeltsin was a drunk and a loser, Krutchtchev was a bully with his ridiculous “gift” to Ukraine…. but if it were not for the USSR we would be speaking Kraut today.
Barbara says
Crimea has been historically Russian, so I would not have an objection to Russia taking it back if Russia was a democratic state without a lot of corruption. Russians have few rights, and new laws make it illegal to invite people to church or give out a religious tract! Most independent media have been closed down. Probably if the people in Crimea voted, they would prefer Russia because it is better than Ukraine, but both are pretty terrible countries.
dan christensen says
Nikita Khrushchev was a Ukranian himself – maybe that is why he transferred Crimea to Ukraine.
The people of Crimea confirmed Russia as their motherland by a popular vote, after the Russian occupation. More then 70% of the Crimeans are Russians.
A.S. says
There is another ethnicity living in Crimea that Robert Spencer did not mention in his article – namely, Crimean Tartars. One should know how Stalin treated them, and why they would rather live in Ukraine.
christianblood says
Barbara
Russia does not one needs of your “democracy” and “freedoms”. For God’s sake, just keep those in your politically-correct, spineless hellholes!
christianblood says
Barbara
What we need in Russia is NOT Western ‘democracy’, transgenderism and ‘human rightism’ but the LIGHT OF CHRIST! So Keep those SATANIC values to yourselves, please!
kuriakose says
christianblood: +1
gravenimage says
Yes–he also hates human rights.
gravenimage says
Christianblood has always been quite open in his hatred of democracy and freedom, which he hates far more than Islam. Very telling.
Pal says
+1
Pal says
“Christianblood” is a mere KGB russian troll, one of their anti-western troll factory, and paid by kremlin.
I don’t know why he (she/they) is still tolerated on JW comment net and not blocked or deleted??
Do “S+Sucury” not notice that.. or they feel pleased by that Anti-American presence??
gravenimage says
Pal, the comments here are not moderated–and it is rare for *anyone* to be banned here unless they are directly inciting violence.
Pal says
-1
Peggy says
Where on earth did you get that garbage from? Putin himself attends church regularly and you state that it’s illegal to invite people to church.
What independent media are you talking about” CNN, BBC, NBC etc. are worse than anything Russia has. There is absolutely no freedom in the west any longer and the media is owned and controlled by the Globalists. Do you honestly think that Russia would be better off having the same conditions as the west?
We are all enslaved in the west because we only have an illusion of freedom and democracy. They are implementing and tightening new laws every day like a noose around our necks.
Look at UK for God’s sake. Look at what they are doing to Tommy Robinson.
Edward Snowden has found refuge in Russia and Julian Assange is still in an embassy after years of being there. Why? Because they exposed incredible corruption and control over us all by “democratic” western governments.
You do realize that there is no such thing as democracy any more ANYWHERE.
Bottom line, who gave the US the right to make decisions about how the world should run when we all know now who really makes those decisions and why.
Raja says
Great comment Peggy… Very true..
Peggy says
gravenimage says
Jul 18, 2018 at 2:27 pm
Peggy, Muslims in Chechnya have been allowed to impose brutal Shari’ah law there. They’re being appeased by Putin.
==========================
Hi GI,
Putin is giving them what they want. At leas they are not imposing their Sharia onto non Muslims like what’s happening in the west.
We are burdened with Halal tax, not being allowed to criticize their religion, our women and girls are being raped at an alarming rate and not much is being done. We are getting harsh penalties imposed for any small infraction like the poor guy who put bacon on the mosque door and then was killed in prison or Tommy Robinson.
Sharia is practiced in the states where they are and have always been majority Muslim but it’s not being exported.
We on the other hand are importing that rubbish to control us as well.
Who’s better off? An average Russian or a Brit?
gravenimage says
Peggy wrote:
gravenimage says
Jul 18, 2018 at 2:27 pm
Peggy, Muslims in Chechnya have been allowed to impose brutal Shari’ah law there. They’re being appeased by Putin.
==========================
Hi GI,
Putin is giving them what they want.
……………………..
Yes, Peggy–Putin *is* giving Muslims what they want, and allowing Muslims to impose the horrors of Shari’ah on Russian soil is just emboldening them.
And Chechnya is not 100% Muslim–Christians and secularists there are suffering under Shari’ah, as well.
More:
At leas they are not imposing their Sharia onto non Muslims like what’s happening in the west.
……………………..
Muslims continue to wage violent Jihad in Russia. I’m surprised that you missed that.
More:
We are burdened with Halal tax, not being allowed to criticize their religion, our women and girls are being raped at an alarming rate and not much is being done. We are getting harsh penalties imposed for any small infraction like the poor guy who put bacon on the mosque door and then was killed in prison or Tommy Robinson.
……………………..
I have *always* condemned dhimmitude in the West–I am always surprised when people laud it elsewhere, though.
More:
Sharia is practiced in the states where they are and have always been majority Muslim but it’s not being exported.
We on the other hand are importing that rubbish to control us as well.
……………………..
No, Russia did *not* always allow Muslims to impose Shari’ah in Russia itself. This is quite new–and is *not* a good thing.
More:
Who’s better off? An average Russian or a Brit?
……………………..
dhimmitude and appeasement threaten both Russians and Britons–and many others in Dar-al-Harb.
dan christensen says
Which is most important?
A) The people’s right to self-determination.
or
B) The territorial integrity of a country.
You cannot have both a the same time.
In the Serbian Kossovo province, EU, Nato and US opted for A), but B) in the case of Crimea.
Why?
Ole Pederson says
In both cases the same motive: to hit Russia. Look up for example evil strategist Zbigniew Brzeziński.
Kosovo was a Serbian province and USA/NATO/EU wanted to crush Socialist Yugoslavia (the West was surprised after the fall of the Warsaw pact the Yugoslavs who never were a member did not cast off Socialism, as their country was one of the very few where Socialism worked, to a degree)
Ukraine: to get Ukraine in opposition to Russia and subject it to Western powers USA/EU/NATO and turn it against Russia. Hence the parts of the country with large Russian minority rebeled.
in other words, every time a superpower nation quotes human rights, national integrity, self-determination, democracy, whatever, it is just propganda.
LB says
While Kosovo and Crimea may appear like same cases on paper, they are fundamentally different and here’s why:
As the article correctly states, Crimea was annexed by Russian Empire from the Ottomans and populated by Russians since 1784.
Kosovo, on the other hand, was the cradle of Serbian culture since Southern Slavs first migrated to the Balkans somewhere in mid first millennium. The evidence for that (among many other things) is the huge number of Orthodox Christian churches on Kosovo, that were built by first Serbian rulers across centuries, before they were conquered by Ottomans in 15th century.
Fast forward to post-WWII era, a great number of Albanian muslims were en masse illegally crossing southern Serbian border into Kosovo, which was (unfortunately) tolerated by the then-president of Yugoslavia, Tito. After his death in 1980 came the violent fallout of Yugoslavia which was taken advantage of by the ever growing majority of Albanian muslims and they started guerrilla attacks on Serbian towns and villages under the banner of Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) that resulted in (but not limited to): killings, maimings, kidnappings, etc. of Serbs in order to drive them out from the region. This culminated with 1998-1999 Serbian-Kosovo war that ended with some 2000 tonnes of depleted uranium being dropped on the Serbs, courtesy of NATO.
Today, the majority of numerous ancient Christian Orthodox churches are torn down in order to rewrite history, and present the annexation of Kosovo as “the will of the people”. Except those people were only present on Kosovo for last 70 years, despite their absurd claims that they’ve been there before Roman Empire (just like all muslims everywhere claim).
IN SUMMARY:
Crimea was first populated by the Russians (not Ukrainians) and the majority of people living there today are Russian, so you can make an argument that Putin’s annexation is justified because it is the will of the people.
Kosovo, however, was Serbian since Serbia was first founded, but it was annexed by the people that violently drove out its original Serbian population merely decades ago.
Lebel says
Based on that Russians should get out of Chechnya – oh wait the rules will change again.
Here are the real rules for jihadwatch – are Muslims the conquerors? then it’s evil and never legitimate. Are non-Muslims the conquerors over Muslims? then it’s fine, legitimate and no further arguments are required
Wellington says
Wrong again, Lebel. Most everyone has conquered others and often times have thereafter been conquered. For instance, before Columbus arrived in 1492, Indian tribes were brutal to one another, enslaved one another, even cannibalized one another. Then the Spanish often brutally took over various Indian societies and thereafter what is now the southwestern US was taken over by America from the Spanish conquerors of the Indians. Ditto for sundry African and Asian societies. And on and on and on like this. All across the globe.
But you set up straw man after straw man and then point to all those non-Muslim meanies who are so awful to Muslims while glossing over Muslim atrocities galore (e.g., Islam’s murderous and massively destructive entrance into the subcontinent which is India. How pathetic you are for doing this.
America did wrong to blacks and American Indians. The West in general did many wrongs. But ONLY the West has apologized for its wrongdoings while virtually none of the non-Western world has. And this is because, Lebel, the West explored freedom more than any other civilization in history. And with freedom comes all kinds of good things, including prosperity, equality under the law, AND admittance of mistakes. When has the Islamic world EVER apologized for anything even though it has so much to apologize for?
Stop with the self-pity and straw man arguments, Lebel. They will make no headway, not only here at JW but wherever common sense, proper knowledge and basic decency exist. The fundamental problem with Islam remains, i.e., it is not rooted in liberty but rather all kinds of exculpations for egregious behavior. Grow up, Lebel. Ditto for the Islamic world, which I think a dim prospect of it doing if at all.
Peggy says
Except that Chechens and Russia have worked out a deal and the Chechens have sworn an oath to be loyal to Putin.
So, it doesn’t look like they want to get out of Russia at the moment.
In any case, we always have to look at history of the region before we decide who has the right of secede and who doesn’t.
Unfortunately, it’s very easy for western governments to sell their decisions to their own people that they are intervening on humanitarian grounds because most westerners haven’t got a clue about their own history let alone the rest of the world.
gravenimage says
Peggy, Muslims in Chechnya have been allowed to impose brutal Shari’ah law there. They’re being appeased by Putin.
Werner Hoermann says
Well, by that logic Poland and Russia should immediately return the areas that were German until 1945. Get a grip on reality man, might makes right and every nation save Iceland lives in an area because they killed the folks who lived there before them.
Lebel says
Finally, some common sense. I agree so can we stop with the: “in year xxx the Muslim hordes did horrible things in xxx and blood flowed into the sea turning it red. In my new book, i explain it all in great detail”?
It’s exactly as you say, there is nothing unique about this, it’s called empire building.
gravenimage says
Lebel knows full well that the Islamic imperative to conquer the world has no time limit–he just hopes *we* don’t know that.
christianblood says
dan christensen
U$ and its Nato vassals care less about these things that you mentioned above.
All U$ and West care about to spread their satanic, globalist liberal imperialism.
Wellington says
Imagine this scenario: Numerous (let’s say twenty) Texas counties that border or are close to the Rio Grande take a vote and overwhelmingly, because of the large Hispanic element in these counties, decide that they want to be part of Mexico again, which they were officially respecting their land area before the Treaty of Guadalupe (February 1848) ended the Mexican War and which gave America a huge amount of land, including the formal recognition of Texas to the Rio Grande as part of the US.
Now, let’s just suppose, for argument’s sake, Mexico has one of the strongest militaries on earth (yeah, I know, quite a stretch here) and the Mexican government formally takes over these twenty counties, outright annexes them and declares them forever part of Mexico, etc. Of course, this would be opposed by the very strong American military but the potential war aside over this, think this annexation would be OK because most (let’s say around 80%) in these twenty counties wanted to be part of Mexico again? Of course not. This would violate every norm of international law as was the case in Putin’s rank annexation of Crimea.
America should never recognize the way Russia took over Crimea in 2014. It is IRRELEVANT that Crimea was Russian before 1954 just as it is IRRELEVANT those twenty Texas counties in my hypothetical (and all of Texas for that matter) were theoretically part of Mexico before Mexico formally transferred them to the US in 1848. Moreover, when the USSR broke up in 1991, thereafter Russia signed various international agreements guaranteeing the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Putin, who is a thug and a killer, went against every norm of international law in the way he and others took over Crimea in 2014. Recognition of Crimea as part of Russia by any Western nation would be a stain on the honor of that nation.
Matthew Schroeder says
Amen. Very well stated.
loveto edit says
Good points… In California we were Mexican. Before that Spanish. Before that Native American( different tribes like Chumash… Santa Barbara area). And in the earliest occupation was Caucasian. 10 thousand years before so called Native American. A Skull was found on Indian land and sent to a lab in the state of Washington and found to be the earliest known find in North America. The tribe was ecstatic and were full of pride… But then they were notified it was not Mongoloid but Caucasian !!! They requested the skull back and the University refused but the Indians won the legal battle and it was returned. Never to be seen since. It destroys the Native American myth that they are the original owners of North America.
Personally it’s all BS. I go with Alexander the Great’s last words. When asked who he would give his empire to. He said …. The Strongest. The Lands in our world only belong to the strongest Period.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9110838/Stone-age-Europeans-were-the-first-to-set-foot-on-North-America.html
Ole Pederson says
You fell for propaganda. You have no idea what you are talking about. There never was an annexation (not one soldier moved position), and international law experts disagree over whether this violated international law. It was a secession.
Besides, I assume you supported Kosovo secession and indepenced from Serbia/Yugoslavia as the US did at the time. You can’t have it both ways, unless your morale is might makes right.
Wellington says
Old Perderson: You are the one who has no idea what you’re talking about. The way Crimea was annexed by Russia in 2014 was abysmal and one knows this or should know it. It was and remains a sham. And consider my hypothetical above in my 12:55 P.M. post for analogy purposes.
As for Kosovo, no I did not support the creation of it as an independent state and have said so many times here at JW (and elsewhere). Unlike those who are pro-Russian and, like Muslims, can virtually never admit error, Americans can and often have. As the 19th century German immigrant to America, Carl Schurz, who rose to become Senator from Missouri and then Secretary of the Interior in the Rutherford B. Hayes Administration, said about his beloved adopted country, “My country right or wrong. If right to be kept right. If wrong to be put right.” Just so. Wish every people would think this way but so many don’t, including Muslims and Russians. Americans, by contrast, have shown a remarkable ability to admit error and thereafter try to create “a more perfect union.”
Pal says
+1
gravenimage says
Good analogy, Wellington.
christianblood says
Wellington
Crimea was Russia, Reunited with Russia and will remain Russia forever! See what really happened in Ukraine in the talk below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOrV2X_ZY_s
Wellington says
The way Russia “acquired” Crimea in 2014 was a thug move by the thug now running Russia, one Putin by name.
Give it up, christianblood. Putin is a killer, a thug, a liar, a jerk and an enemy of freedom. After these “attributes,” it only gets worse where Putin is concerned.
Russia never learns. NEVER. So sad. So useless. And ultimately so injurious to the Russian people themselves.
Peggy says
Wellington what do you base all that on?
Russians seem very happy with Putin. You only wish that they hated him as much as you do.
Wellington says
Peggy: To the extent that Putin is popular in Russia it stands as an indictment of the Russian people who don’t “get” freedom and want a strong, authoritarian type to lead them. My God, a lot of Russians still admire Stalin.
The Russians have solid positives like courage and artistic and intellectual achievement of the first rank but they are dismal where liberty is concerned. And, quite frankly, paranoid and xenophobic too. As I have written before here as JW, the extremely shrewd George Kennan, who was an adviser to many American Presidents, both Republican and Democrat, and spoke many languages, including Russian, observed that the Russians look upon their neighbors as vassals or enemies. Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Finns, Czechs, Georgians, Slovaks, et al. would in very large numbers agree with Kennan’s statement I have no doubt.
gravenimage says
Peggy, the Russians being poisoned and jailed by Putin may not have as rosy an outlook on the dictator.
Peggy says
Wellington says
Jul 18, 2018 at 11:39 am
Peggy: To the extent that Putin is popular in Russia it stands as an indictment of the Russian people who don’t “get” freedom and want a strong, authoritarian type to lead them. My God, a lot of Russians still admire Stalin.
=======================
I don’t know that many Russians still admire Stalin. I haven’t seen any evidence of that but I have seen how fondly Russians speak of Putin.
I also have no doubt that people are gotten rid of by the state in Russia which I certainly don’t concede but it’s not unique to Russia. This alone doesn’t rove dictatorship because it if did then US would be a dictatorship as well.
How many have “committed suicide” when Hillary wanted to keep them quiet? Maybe you don’t believe that Hillary had anything to do with their deaths because concrete proof has not been presented publically but then the same can be said about deaths in Russia.
How many people have been eliminated by the CIA? I’m sure they were American citizens not all foreign agents. This happens in every country and if you think it doesn’t then you remain ignorant by choice.
If you are prepared to accept that there are such things as false flags then our own governments have blood on their hands too.
We really can’t say with certainty that Putin or Obama or Hillary ordered a hit but yes, it does look very likely.
They are all the same which then it must mean there is no real democracy anywhere.
Pal says
+1
Wellington says
Peggy: The latest poll of Russians respecting admiration of Stalin was reported by the Washington Post on February 15th, 2017. The percentage is an astounding 46%, highest since polling about this began in 2001. Didn’t know this, did you?
And while I certainly don’t like the Clintons, Obama and know that the CIA has sometimes had to do some dirty work, your moral equivalency thinking, essentially saying that Russia and America are equally at fault, is also astounding.
And may I suggest you read Steve’s July 18th 3:52 A.M. post above for direct information about the sham that the vote in, and annexation of, Crimea really was.
Peggy says
Wellington says
Jul 19, 2018 at 11:25 am
Peggy: The latest poll of Russians respecting admiration of Stalin was reported by the Washington Post on February 15th, 2017. The percentage is an astounding 46%, highest since polling about this began in 2001. Didn’t know this, did you?
==========================
OMG, do you really think that Washington Post is a credible news outlet?
Seriously?
This is your proof? I really thought you were smarter than that. Maybe you cherry pick which data suits your point of view and will take it from anywhere.
I wonder what Robert Spencer thinks of that paper.
gravenimage says
Peggy, one can take issue with the editorial policy at the Washington Post–that doesn’t mean they make up hard news stories out of whole cloth. This is just a silly claim.
And the poll itself was taken by Levada–a *Russian* firm. The poll was not taken by the Washington Post itself.
Here are Levada’s findings directly, in English:
https://www.levada.ru/en/2018/04/17/the-perception-of-stalin/
Wellington was quite right.
slavonian says
Apparently, you’d rather have the Donbass scenario; whereby neo-nazi battalions invade from the west and terrorize the indigenous population. How many deaths had been avoided by Putin’s discrete actions? How many folks burned alive like the ones at Odessa are instead getting sunburned at Crimean beaches? It would be nice if you gave a damn about the liberty of someone else than your own, and fellow Californians, or wherever you heil from.
gravenimage says
No, Western freedom is not Fascism. What rot.
Peggy says
I disagree. The fact that Crimea was Russian for centuries and was only gifted a short time ago is a very important fact.
Just because one dictator makes a decision doesn’t make it right. You always say how Russia is oppressive so it doesn’t deserve any benefit of the doubt but are gladly accepting a decision of one tyrant who was a Communist and more oppressive.
This was done against people’s will and now Putin is righting this wrong and giving people back what they lost. Don’t you think that is a very important fact?
You can’t possibly compare US and some states to this. People living in those states wouldn’t even want to secede from the US. Mexicans are coming to America illegally so there is no way they would want those states to go to Mexico.
Wellington says
You’re missing the big picture, Peggy. Big time. It is irrelevant if Crimea was given to Ukraine in 1854, 1954 or 1984. The way Putin, who is a thug, liar and killer, took Crimea doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny that is rooted in law and ethics.
Peggy says
Asking nicely was not going to do it.
You keep describing Putin as a thug, liar and killer.
Aren’t they all that? What do you think Hillary is? Benghazi was treason and that’s only one thing.
I can’t think of any US president who wasn’t responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths somewhere, except for Kennedy.
C’mon, do you think the US asks nicely or takes care of business the hard way. Then we have Australia, UK, France etc who join in.
What is the difference between Putin and Bush snr and jnr. Who has killed more people around the world? Who has destabilised more countries?
Lastly, who’s rolling their tanks close to whose border? Be fair. What is the difference?
Pal says
+1
Wellington says
Peggy: I feel sorry for you that you would compare the Bushes (whom I definitely have criticisms of) with Putin. Appalling. America had had to fight tyrants for the purpose of establishing freedom and preserving civilization. Russia has never fought for freedom and regularly has played the role of tyrant. Have lives been lost in both cases? Of course. America and Britain had to bomb Germany in WWII and many German women and children died from this but does this equate to what Stalin did? As Winston Churchill observed, sometimes civilization has to sink almost as low as the barbarian in order to preserve civilization.
nicu says
Crimea always belonged to Russia !
christianblood says
nicu
Well-said!
In the US and West they never knew this!
The European says
Can someone tell me where the Cimmerians are? Historically, they seem to be the first ones to populate Crimea around 1300 B.C. Well then, does Crimea not belong to the Cimmerians? The Cimmerians are extinct, but Russians are alive and thriving. Even in the eleventh century large parts of the Crimea were ruled by the Kievan Rus, the first Russian state. The Caucaus and the Black Sea regions have always been under Russian influence and many Russians today regard theses territories as “their own backyard.” Today, Crimea comprises a Russian majority (58%), Ukrainians ( 24%) and Crimean Tartars (12 %). In 2014, the Ukrainian government of Viktor Yanukovich was overthrown by Nato-backed Ukrainian ultra-nationalists who have a lot in common with fascists. The Parliament of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea voted then for secession from Ukraine and opted for union with Russia, and its decision had been approved of by the Russian majority who also wanted to join Russia. So, this so-called “annexation” reflects the will of the Crimean people, and since when do the people of Crimea not have the right to decide about their own destiny?
Matthew Schroeder says
Robert, I am surprised that you are defending Russian irredentism. I suppose by the same logic large swathes of Estonia must also be returned, compelled to suck the icy teat of Mother Russia. Perhaps Kyiv itself should be awarded to Russia, since according to that nation’s Erastian Church Kyiv is “the baptismal font of Russian cities.” Further, does the American southwest belong to Mexico?
Do we really want to convey the message to a belligerent regime in Moscow that they can grab parts of other countries based on irredentist arguments, without any compensation to those countries for their loss of territory?
gravenimage says
Agreed, Matthew.
christianblood says
Matthew Schroeder
People in Crimea voted overwhelmingly to rejoin with Russia and the gates of hell could not stop that! .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smYHy9t96Og
Peggy says
People of the American southwest don’t want to join Mexico. Geez, they are jumping over the border to get into US not stay with Mexico.
Besides, unless you understand history of that part of the world and how people identify over there you can’t think you know enough to make decisions for them.
Does a few decades of being separated from their country where they had no say in it justify them now having to live separated forever?
Don’t forget the “icy teat” was even icier back then and the Communist in charge didn’t ask for the will of the people.
Righting a wrong now is what needs to be done.
Why do you refer to Russia in such a way? Do you think people there are more miserable than let’s say in the UK? Do you think they are more oppressed? Tommy Robinson would disagree with you.
Wellington says
Peggy: I’m not so sure there aren’t many of Mexican descent in America that wouldn’t want to rejoin Mexico (think, for example, of La Raza) but my point is what if there were, what if my hypothetical occurred?
More important is that the way Putin took Crimea from Ukraine, irrespective of it being Russian before 1954, contravenes every norm of international law and is why not a single European country, the US or Canada has recognized this annexation. Those that do make for a list of authoritarian states like Cuba, North Korea, Syria, Sudan and Zimbabwe. Why am I not surprised about this. Please reconsider, Peggy, that Russia’s annexation of Crimea was done terribly and sets an awful precedent for the way nations should act on this little planet we inhabit.
Peggy says
Look I agree that things should be done the legal way. I am all for it but that’s not the world we live in.
Actually the precedent was already set when Yugoslavia broke up. Kosovo was broken away from Yugoslavia (what was left of it, or maybe it was Serbia by then) brutally. International law was ignored and might made right.
If I was Putin I would do as the west did too. Why try the legal channels when nobody is going to adhere to them.
Do you see the hypocrisy at all? You say nobody has recognized Crimea but then why have so many (most with US pressure) recognized Kosovo. Doesn’t it make them all hypocrites and law breakers?
So if Putin can’t trust the same countries to play by the rules, why would he?
Rarely says
It may well be the case that Crimea is more appropriately part of Russia than of the Ukraine. Similarly it may have been more appropriate for the Sudetenland to be part of Germany than Czechoslovakia prior to WWII. (I suspect RS expected someone to make the analogy)
It is not so much what is appropriate but the “how” a transfer is made. Were both parties and the inhabitants willing? Was appropriate compensation paid? Or was it achieved simply by force?
What other parts of the Ukraine and other former SSRs does Russia have its eyes on for annexation?
Will the US go to war with Russia over Russia annexing Russian majority areas into Russia proper? No more so than were the Allies over the Sudetenland.
True that Putin is no Hitler but that doesn’t make the way the Crimea was transferred right.
gravenimage says
+1
Wellington says
+2
christianblood says
Rarely
You had too much of the ‘deep state’ propaganda cool aid!
You have no idea who overthrew the democratically elected president of Ukraine, banned the Russian language spoken by millions of Ukrainians and the people of Crimea, empowered the neo nazi fascists in Ukraine. Let alone that, with the blessings of the ‘deep state’ Israel is even arming the neo-nazi fascists in Ukraine!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727
Rarely says
Of no relevance.
underbed cat says
I understood there was a military base in Crimea, that may have housed submarines of the powerful type and that the muslim population was seen as too high a risk. I do not recall where I read this, Maybe RT, but I understood immediately why Crimea could not be lost from Russian control. My grandmother came nearly alone from Scotland at fourteen, she always talked about her older brother Duncan who was lost at sea, into the Black Sea and a surviving sister that was back in ScotIand. I did not know where the Black Sea was located and did a google search…..somehow found this article about Crimea during the time of the election in Ukraine, the riots and the beginning of a war involving the base on the Black Sea that was the Crimea issue.
Ole Pederson says
On the Crimea the Russians have their only all-year ice-free harbor and had their fleet base from the 18th century onward.
No Russian government whatsoever would have accepted NATO control over the Crimea. Whether the Crimea was Ukranian for a few decades was irrelevant during the Soviet era.
gravenimage says
The Ukraine is not Muslim, as you appear to believe. In fact, the percentage of Muslims in Russia is almost seven times higher than in Ukraine.
christianblood says
gravenimage
The US, Western-backed Ukrainian fascists are collaborating with islamist Tartars in Ukraine.
See it below:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/07/ukraine-merges-nazis-and-islamists/
gravenimage says
I don’t think any Infidels should consider Muslims to be allies.
Of course, you are fine with considering Hizb’allah an ally of yours.
underbed cat says
Crimea had a larger tartar population, but as we know it does not take many to cause chaos which occurred prior to the arrival of the Russians…..to secure Crimea. It was reported the after the election that the CIA was in the area. There was a lot of coverage of the beginning of riots. The muslim population was around 2%.
underbed cat says
The Ukraine article in The Guardian, dated 2/26/2014 reported, “In the regional capital of Simferopolon there was a gathering of around 10,000 Crimean Tartars, muslims, that supported Crimea staying with Ukraine.” (It is no surprise, the muslims chanted Ukraine is not Russian” . Small population big trouble.Then there was a mention about a potential Obama billion dollar loan guarantee for the funding of Ukraine….does this surprise anyone.? This is 4 years old…but very informative, it also headlined that Russia was put on high alert as Crimea protests leave one man dead….as days went by it became much worse…..this is just a small snipit the of article.Ukraine is Russia,,,,all this arguring with the leftist news criticizing Trump gives me a headache as they don’t recognize Russia protected the Russian population and secured their military base in Crimea. Sometimes I think the democrats and far left are starting to bring a war to the U.S. if they protest and occupy airports….with bull ****t concern over ICE,,,,Obama is at it again.
Sam says
The point is being able to talk about ISLAMIC TERROR is a goodt thing even with a communist Russian
St. Manuel II Palailogos says
Ukraine itself was Russian land for much of it’s history, though it was also Polish land briefly as well. Anyway, Robert is 100% right that Crimea is Russian land.
christianblood says
St. Manuel II Palailogos
(..Ukraine itself was Russian land for much of it’s history, though it was also Polish land briefly as well. Anyway, Robert is 100% right that Crimea is Russian land..)
These kids have NO idea of they are talking about!
Rarely says
And Pittsburg is German land.
Indiana Tom says
Oh heck, the entire Midwest and most of the Northern part of the USA is part of a Greater Germany by the reasoning going into the invasion of the Crimea by the Russians.
gravenimage says
Coming to some reality on Crimea — which the Ottomans used as a jihad base for years
………………..
I am–with all respect–still no fan of Putin’s seizure of the Crimea–despite the waters being muddied given the large Russian-speaking population there. Along with his bullying of Georgia, I think he is seeing what he can get away with before making a move on Eastern Europe.
That being said, he is less a threat to free people than is Islam.
Slavonian says
Rarely! By your standards, large tracts of England, France, and Germany should now be given independence, or be incorporated into Pakistan, Turkey and Morocco due to the consequences of hijra. Those immigrants should have their wishes fulfilled.
Sudetenland doesn’t exist; it’s only in the vocabulary of Nazis. Every single German who ever lived in the so called Sudetenland had come there as an immigrant into the Czech Kingdom in search of better life. Ditto Albanians into Kosovo – the heartland of the Serbian Kingdom.
The point is that immigrants should never be dictating which country owns the land they are being guests on. Immigrants should adapt to their host country and become its loyal citizens. If not, they should just go back to the hellhole they came from.
Does Crimea fall into this category? Russia had liberated it from Islamic invaders; before that, Crimea was a part of the Hellenistic world. No one thinks that should be given back to Turkey. But mostly every western government thinks that it should be given back to Ukraine, to which it was annexed by Bolsheviks. No one asked the Russian nation, including the Russian majority population of Crimea, for such permission. Therefore, the act has been illegal since the word Go.
There is a catch here; Crimea was never given to Ukraine to do with as she pleases. It was lent to her to administer for mutual, mostly administrative, benefits to both Russians and Ukrainians. In the moment when Ukraine took it over for its sole benefits, the unwritten contract was torn to shreds. The rivers of blood shed by Russians to liberate Crimea from the Ottomans, and then to defend it from the combined English, French, and Turkish armies in the Crimean war; and later from the German invaders in WW1, and WW2, those rivers meander like writing in blood on the pages of history: Crimea is Russian!
Besides, Crimea was autonomous and had a referendum already back in the early 90’s, which chose independence, but was quashed by the threat of military intervention by Ukraine.
Yet another point to make is that when Russia guaranteed Ukraine its territorial integrity, it did not commit to helping the U. government suppress internal dissent. When civil war breaks out in Ukraine, and its Russian half seeks independence from the Ukrainian half suppressing their identity, what’s Russia to do? Did it not give a guarantee to the Russian half of Ukraine as well? A guarantee to help in maintaining peace?
It is certain that if there were a referendum, substantial territories of Ukraine would opt for either a federal order, or outright independence. Definitely, you could count Odessa, Kharkov, Mariupol into that. That’s why the Kiev government will choose bloodshed over democratic process; such referenda will never ever be allowed to happen. Perforce, the resolution of that conflict will come from elsewhere.
Michael Finch says
The point of the article is not to excuse or condone the annexation of Crimea but to acknowledge the reality that Russia will not give Crimea back to Ukraine. The reasons for this are outlined pretty clearly in the article. We can draw lines in the sand over why American lives should be sacrificed in a war, but our bled should never be shed over a peninsula in the Black Sea that was never Ukrainian and has been Russian for almost 250 years. If by accepting this reality, we can get something in return of much more importance, we should do so.
Lebel says
I did not know that. Add another sin to the billions of disgusting things Muslims have done.
Jayboo can you do some research on Lee Harvey Oswald and whether the media has been hiding a Muslim conversion. (which would explain the evil deed).
Thanks in advance
gravenimage says
All Lebel does here is sneer at Anti-Jihadists for daring to oppose the horrors of Jihad.
Ecosse1314 says
On the same basis lebel perhaps you could comment on the many Islamic atrocities instead of being a nit-picking dick head…..or indeed as we say in Scotland a bawbag.
Hari Singh says
The Russian Orthodox Church has a prophecy that the Russian Church will revive Christianity in the last days. Thousands of American Evangelicals have become Orthodox Christians, with prominent born again Christian Hank Hanegraaff becoming Orthodox. Hundreds of churches a month are being rebuilt or reopened in Russia.Seminaries and monasteries are full.
The Russian Orthodox Church already feels it is in a holy war with Islam, Chechen jihadis have assassinated Russian Orthodox Priests such as the prominent preacher Father Daniel Sysoev.The Russian State takes a hard hand with Islam despite there being many people from the various Tatar Republics in Russia.
It is part of the Russian national conscience to remember the life and death struggle with the fundamentalist Jihadi Ottoman Turks. Cossacks once dreamed of retaking Constantinople, perhaps inch allah
gravenimage says
The Russian Orthodox Church already feels it is in a holy war with Islam
……………….
If only this were the case:
“Four Principles from Patriarch Kirill on Islam, Western Immorality, and Interfaith Dialogue”
http://myocn.net/four-principles-patriarch-kirill-islam-western-immorality-interfaith-dialogue/
We see such appeasement of Islam as this:
“The Moscow Patriarchate looks forward to continued dialogue and strengthened relations with Muslim leaders, especially given the rapid decline of morality in the West.”
And this:
“I cannot get rid of the idea that the “Arabic Spring” and the emergence of Muslim radical military forces, who commit public executions, are aimed at demonizing Islam in the eyes of the world community,” His Holiness said.
This dhimmitude from the head of the Russian Orthodox Church is as bad as anything you find in the West. I am sad to see it.
Wellington says
+ 1 (again).
Pal says
+1
christianblood says
Hari Singh posted
(..The Russian Orthodox Church has a prophecy that the Russian Church will revive Christianity in the last days. Thousands of American Evangelicals have become Orthodox Christians, with prominent born again Christian Hank Hanegraaff becoming Orthodox. Hundreds of churches a month are being rebuilt or reopened in Russia.Seminaries and monasteries are full..)
You are exactly right! And that is precisely why the satanic, pro-ISIS transgendered West hates Russia!
Liberal imperialism spearheaded by the US and the West and the global Islamic jihadism led by Saudi Arabia are the two sides of the same satanic coin and are collaborating to destroy Christianity and especially Russia and then they will come for India and beyond and destroy Hindus and Sikhs and Buddhists. Liberal imperialist West is directly collaborating with islam to destroy Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism but right now Christian Russia is their main target but they will not succeed!
Wellington says
Transgendered West? Really?
If this is the best you can do, christianblood, give up the ghost. Yesterday will do. So would last week. Maybe two decades ago. Or for that matter two centuries ago because Russia never learns.
slavonian says
Oops, clash of Fake Realities! Just because christianblood goes to extreme (and untrue) generalizations of the west you do the same to Russia. Birds of the feather opine together?
gravenimage says
What has Wellington said that is untrue?
Wellington says
slavonian: Yes, echoing gravenimage, what was it that I said that you dispute? Moreover, christianblood is all Russia, all the time, nary a criticism from him about anythings Russian, while I have often faulted America and the West, for instance the US recognizing an independent Kosovo, which I said at the time and say to this day was a mistake.
slavonian says
You said ” Or for that matter two centuries ago because Russia never learns.”
Such statement may be emotionally satisfying to you, but deep down you know just how absurd it really is.
Wellington says
slavonian: Russia has never learned, nor even cares to learn, about what made America great above all other matters and that is freedom. This is what I meant when I said Russia never learns.
Also, unlike christianblood who has never praised the West for anything, indeed, christianblood is relentlessly, nauseatingly negative about America and the West, I have indicated many times that the Russians have admirable attributes like great courage and a wonderful artistic heritage. But they don’t “get” freedom.” Here they have never learned.
slavonian says
Mr. Rarely! By your standards, large tracts of England, France, and Germany should now be given independence, or be incorporated into Pakistan, Turkey and Morocco due to the consequences of hijra. Those immigrants should have their wishes fulfilled.
Sudetenland doesn’t exist; it’s only in the vocabulary of Nazis. Every single German who ever lived in the so called Sudetenland had come there as an immigrant into the Czech Kingdom in search of better life. Ditto Albanians into Kosovo – the heartland of the Serbian Kingdom.
The point is that immigrants should never be dictating which country owns the land they are being guests on. Immigrants should adapt to their host country and become its loyal citizens. If not, they should just go back to the hellhole they came from.
Does Crimea fall into this category? Russia had liberated it from Islamic invaders; before that, Crimea was a part of the Hellenistic world. No one thinks that should be given back to Turkey. But mostly every western government thinks that it should be given back to Ukraine, to which it was annexed by Bolsheviks. No one asked the Russian nation, including the Russian majority population of Crimea, for such permission. Therefore, the act has been illegal since the word Go.
There is a catch here; Crimea was never given to Ukraine to do with as she pleases. It was lent to her to administer for mutual, mostly administrative, benefits to both Russians and Ukrainians. In the moment when Ukraine took it over for its sole benefits, the unwritten contract was torn to shreds. The rivers of blood shed by Russians to liberate Crimea from the Ottomans, and then to defend it from the combined English, French, and Turkish armies in the Crimean war; and later from the German invaders in WW1, and WW2, those rivers meander like writing in blood on the pages of history: Crimea is Russian!
Besides, Crimea was autonomous and had a referendum already back in the early 90’s, which chose independence, but was quashed by the threat of military intervention by Ukraine. Where is the Golden Rule here?
Yet another point to make is that when Russia guaranteed Ukraine its territorial integrity, it did not commit to helping the U. government suppress internal dissent. When civil war breaks out in Ukraine, and its Russian half seeks independence from the Ukrainian realm suppressing their identity, what’s Russia to do? Did it not give a guarantee to the Russian half of Ukraine as well? Ergo, Russia had betrayed the people of eastern Ukraine and left them at the mercy of bona fide foreign occupiers from Galicia.
Please, desist from the travesty of professing love of democracy and liberty. It is certain that if there were a referendum, many great regions of Ukraine would opt for either a federal order, or outright independence. Definitely, you could count Odessa, Kharkov, Mariupol among those. That’s why the Kiev government will choose bloodshed over democratic process; such referenda will never ever be allowed to happen. Perforce, the resolution of that conflict will come from elsewhere.
gravenimage says
In this case, Russia has the right to oppress most of Eastern Europe in perpetuity because in the past Russia helped drive out the Ottomans. The second is praiseworthy–the first, not so much…
slavonian says
So, by not letting eastern Europe dictate to her, that Crimea belongs to someone else, Russia is oppressing eastern Europe?
As far as I know, Russia has no territorial claims beyond her present borders. Not in the Baltic, not anywhere else. And why should it? Like all reasonable states, such as USA, Russia wishes for good relations with its neighbors. Fighting in the neighborhood is problematic for anybody, though. When Georgia fights and tries to absorb Abkhazia, and Abkhazia fights back, what is Russia supposed to do? It tries to put an end to the given violent conflict, that’s about all.
gravenimage says
Surely you are not pretending that Russia did not recently oppress most of Eastern Europe behind the Iron Curtain? Really, it was not so long ago.
slavonian says
Indeed, it was not by Russia, which was being oppressed just like everybody else in the Warsaw Bloc. The oppression was real, but it was by the Bolsheviks striving to actuate their crude globalist visions.
Obama, the Clintons, Bush would make perfect bolsheviks, too, with their unrealistic determination to dominate the world. Who do they think they are to tell Abkhazians or Crimeans to submit to foreign oppression?
Who is invading Europe? Who are the fifth columnists?
Not Russians, that’s for sure.
gravenimage says
slavonian, your claim that the Soviet Union had nothing to do with Russia is patently ridiculous.
Adam says
History can be a lot of fun. Lot of good conversations, good points made. Maybe we could discuss other things as well.
I propose a little history on something called the Monroe Doctrine. Maybe a little history on our own back yard and the problems we’ve seen there and what might be coming our way.
F the EU, F the Middle East, F Africa (except the really good hunting parts).
We waste time, energy and resources on the other side of the planet while our side falls further away. Anyone and everyone we consider our enemy is on our side of this planet.
Its not our job to save the rest of the world from itself. Its our job to protect and defend this nation, its borders, its constitution and its fellow citizens.
gravenimage says
Actually, the Monroe Doctrine proved to be both wise and efficacious. I’m not sure why you think otherwise.
Wellington says
Agreed, gravenimage. Besides, America has stood for freedom from its inception. Russia never has.
gravenimage says
+1
slavonian says
“America has stood for freedom from its inception. Russia never has.”
Let’s be realistic; your absolutes are a little suspect. You know damn well that there are many instances of America not standing for freedom that one may cite, and many instances of Russia doing the opposite – standing for freedom, and also the other way around; I grant you that.
gravenimage says
slavonian, Russia has never been free, as you well know.
slavonian says
Russia is certainly free enough to save foreigners from having to worry about it needlessly. It is a democracy, as you well know.
Listening to you I hear echoes of CNN’s talking points on Russia.
Wellington says
slavonian: America indeed has sometimes betrayed its ideals, but when has Russia ever stood for real freedom, had ideals of liberty in the first place? Details please.
After all, there is nothing in Russian history the likes of the Mayflower Compact (zemstovos aside), colonial legislatures, Penn’s Charter of Liberties, Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence, Jefferson’s Virginia Bill of Religious Freedom, the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, etc.
To think that Russia in any way even remotely compares to America where the matter of freedom is concerned is to be so blind, so limited, so biased, so ignorant, that figuring out where to begin to correct such dearth of knowledge is really the only matter at issue.
My God, man, Russia, which has far more natural resources than America and is close to twice its size, doesn’t even have the economy of Texas. I suggest you look first and foremost to the lack of freedom in Russian history for this pathetic situation. But you won’t. I predict you’ll miss all this, probably replete with more pathetic and silly equivalency thinking.
Indiana Tom says
Geee…if Russians wanted Crimea so badly, then they shouldn’t have given it to Ukraine in the first place. I suppose the Russians will now want Alaska back.
Peggy says
Alaska was sold but Crimea was gifted without any dialogue with the people of Crimea.
The fact that it was given away by a Communist who we are supposed to hate because Communism is dictatorial seems to escape some people.
So when a dictator makes a decision like this and gives something away he had no right to nobody reacts against it but when an elected president does something to bring it back he is a tyrant and he should be dealt with?
We can’t have it both ways. Either we loathe Communists and not agree with what they do or we loath elected presidents who do what they do with full support of their people.
Which is it going to be?
Indiana Tom says
The Crimea was gifted as a present in 1954 by the Soviet Russians to Kruschev (who was originally from the Ukraine) and the Ukrainians. The Russians apparently tacitly agreed that it was part of the Ukraine when the Soviet Union folded in 1991. So the Russians at least accepted that Crimea was part of the Ukraine from 1991 until the 2014 invasion. So through mismanagement, the sock puppet Yanukovych Russian Ukrainian Government fell and was replaced by the Oleksandr Turchynov government. The Russians did not like Oleksandr Turchynov and invaded Crimea. The Russians at least tacitly approved of the Crimea being part of the Ukraine. ,
Indiana Tom says
Yeah, and Alaska was sold by an Autocratic unelected Czar. Sooooo… you really think that Russia is a real democracy and Putin is not a strongman? Geee….always seems the people who oppose Putin have all sorts of unfortunate accidents.
Peggy says
Geee….always seems the people who oppose Hillary have all sorts of unfortunate accidents.
See, you can point a finger at western tyrants too.
That’s why I think we should worry more about what our governments are doing to us than what Putin is doing to the Russians.
I know that Putin is not a sweet teddy bear, none of them are but Putin taking Crimea back is more understandable than Clinton taking Kosovo which was never his to gift to anyone.
Precedent has already been set and it was set by the west. Please, tell me of one leader who was a nice guy.
Jean says
It is true that it is a main goal for the Muslim lobbies to prevent cooperation between Russia and the West. This is extremely important to them because this would be the biggest possible threat to global jihad.
For the same reason, bettering diplomatic relations and cooperation with Russia is THE main thing to put more effort into presently. Trump is being vilified no end by the media for doing exactly this. But the world’s destiny could well depend on whether this relation is made to work out or not.
The deep distrust between Russia and the West goes all the way back to the church schism in 1052 AD. It needs to be healed. Catholics and Orthodox must reach out to one another. One thing the Pope did right was to meet in person with the Russian Patriarch and to let St. Nicholas’ relics visit Moscow for the first time ever in 2017. A very important opening of dialogue.
The Russians are Christians and share the traditional Western values that made Europe great. They know and love European classical culture. They are well-educated. There is much to build diplomatic relations on. Which is not the case with countries such as Saudia Arabia and Qatar who hate our guts.
PATRICIA FRANCES KOENIG says
Jean, you cited important realities. The war in Syria is really about a proposed natural gas pipeline from Qatar and Saudi Arabia to Europe that Syria will NOT let pass through their territory. The USA and Europe are enraged against Syria and Russia over this refusal. They are foolish though, because it would be much better for Europe to buy natural gas from Orthodox Christian Russia than from Islamic Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Islam is far more hostile to the West than Russia, as you pointed out.
Another reason the media and politicians hate Russian President Vladimir Putin is that he publicly denounces the One World Government.
gravenimage says
Actually, the war in Syria is about Muslims violently grabbing power for their sects. Pretending this has nothing to do with Jihad is very odd.
underbed cat says
I like this comment very much….
Lebel says
“America did wrong to blacks and American Indians. The West in general did many wrongs. But ONLY the West has apologized for its wrongdoings while virtually none of the non-Western world has. And this is because, Lebel, the West explored freedom more than any other civilization in history. And with freedom comes all kinds of good things, including prosperity, equality under the law, AND admittance of mistakes. When has the Islamic world EVER apologized for anything even though it has so much to apologize for?”
We have already discussed this. The little that was done happened recently (US apology for slavery 2009), what happened before? they were not free?
And what does it change? sorry that our ancestors raped and killed your ancestors xxx amount of years ago? The wrong of the past are basically conquests and empire building. That means the West AND the Islamic world.
Apologies for past behavior are actually a derivative of leftist ideology. There is no “west” that should apologize just like there is no “Islam” that should apologize. Are the Turks of today supposed to apologize for the Ottoman empire? this is absurd. Are the Americans of today responsible for slavery? absurd.
There is one exception to this rule of course….
gravenimage says
Endless false moral equivalence from the foul Lebel–as if the free West is no different from the horrors of Islam.
Wellington says
My God, man, America fought a brutal civil war a century and half ago in part to end slavery. Indeed, by 1863 (if not earlier) the American Civil War was as much about the ending of slavery as it was about the preservation of the Union. And the 1950’s and 60’s were an effort once and for all to end inequality before the law, something the Islamic world to this very day has not done.
Yet you are “stuck” in 2009. Once again you unwittingly prove my point, not yours.
Peggy says
True, we are not responsible for what our ancestors did but we are responsible for what we do now and Islam hasn’t changed.
Islam hasn’t regretted anything because they are still doing today what they did yesterday.
Lebel says
“But you set up straw man after straw man and then point to all those non-Muslim meanies who are so awful to Muslims while glossing over Muslim atrocities galore (e.g., Islam’s murderous and massively destructive entrance into the subcontinent which is India. How pathetic you are for doing this.”
Because once again, the point is there is no difference in Muslim or non-Muslim conquest. When the West conquered an area it was not less horrible than Muslim conquest simply because the west is not Islamic. I think you understand it but admitting it on jihadwatch is probably beyond your capacity.
Once again, did the Muslims undertake conquests? YES was it extremely violent and brutal? YES is there a difference when non-Muslims conquered? NO. It is this last point which is very very difficult for some jihadwatchers to admit. Why? because Islam needs to be uniquely bad in all things. You’ll note that we both admit that wrongs were committed by the West/Islamic Empires but you simply cannot take the next logical step.
Wellington says
The West at its worst was very bad indeed, BUT the Judeo-Christian ethic is one which embraces a true Golden Rule for all AND the West has profusely apologized for its wrongdoings and has done wonders establishing true freedom for all. By contrast, the Islamic ethic is a Golden Rule only for other Muslims and the Islamic world has NEVER apologized for anything even though it has so much to apologize for and remains a mortal enemy of true freedom.
You, Lebel, are guilty of fallacious equivalency thinking. Want proof? Look at how millions of Muslims want to come to the West but almost no one in the West wants to immigrate to a Muslim nation. You just don’t get it. You really don’t.
gravenimage says
I see that Lebel hopes we think that Muslim conquest is a thing of distant pas. Nice try…
gravenimage says
past
Felix Quigley says
Gravenimage writes…”Surely you are not pretending that Russia did not recently oppress most of Eastern Europe behind the Iron Curtain? Really, it was not so long ago.”
A true statement if you include one detail which would be read like this…
“Surely you are not pretending that Russia IN THE FORM OF STALINISM did not recently oppress most of Eastern Europe behind the Iron Curtain? Really, it was not so long ago.”
I would like to know Gravenimage what you would think of my correction?
Felix Quigley says
In fact Khrushchev was a part of the Stalinist regime and was part of the crimes of Stalinism. In particular Khrushchev was heavily involved WITH STALIN in the carrying out of the Moscow Trials and in the treasonous to socialism executions carried out by the total Stalinist regime. Khrushchev therefore was a central part of this treasonous to socialism regime of Stalin. The giving away of the critical Crimea (critical to Russian security) was therefore a part of a greater whole of treachery by Stalinism as a political creed.
Wellington on historical matters likes to argue not with facts but with assertion. Gravenimage does the same more or less. So in the above quote I have used, Gravenimage makes reference only to “Russia” as if Russia was forever one and the same…but Russia of the Czars, Russia of the emergence of the capitalist production and of the modern working class, Russia of the Whites, Russia of Kerensky, Russia of the revolution, and so on. Gravenimage effectively likes to destroy the historical essence.
The handing across of Crimea gratis was another of those betrayals of Russia by Stalinism.
But Stalinism was opposed, Stalinism was fought against, by Lenin as has been referred to in his “Testament”, but carried on after the untimely death of Lenin by Trotsky and many others in that political tendency…that is the thing.
There is an historical record of opposition to Stalinism. The issue of Crimea needs to be placed in THIS historical context.
This Gravenimage and Wellington will not and essentially cannot do as is evidenced by the fact that Gravenimage and Wellington to my knowledge have never referred to the concept and word of “Stalinism”. They need to keep referring in the abstract to “Russia”. This keeps people in ignorance of history and in essence plays the neocon’s game.
Wellington says
Oh please, gravenimage and I argue with facts all the time. As for Stalinism v. Russia, this comes close to irrelevant because what I have consistently brought up and have detailed is that Marxism is awful no matter where it has been tried and is a prescription for genocide and the destruction of freedom. It’s only that some Marxists have been more ruthless than others but nowhere Marxism has been tried has it worked and everywhere it has been tried the results have been dismal and then some. Marxism, like Islam and Nazism, is a totalitarian ideology and you simply don’t grasp this.
gravenimage says
Good post, Wellington.
gravenimage says
Felix Quigley wrote:
Gravenimage writes…”Surely you are not pretending that Russia did not recently oppress most of Eastern Europe behind the Iron Curtain? Really, it was not so long ago.”
A true statement if you include one detail which would be read like this…
“Surely you are not pretending that Russia IN THE FORM OF STALINISM did not recently oppress most of Eastern Europe behind the Iron Curtain? Really, it was not so long ago.”
I would like to know Gravenimage what you would think of my correction?
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Certainly, it was Stalin who took advantage of the Allies’ weariness of war to seize and dominate most of eastern Europe.
But if it had *just* been Stalin, then the Soviet Union would have freed the countries that Stalin has seized after WWII when he died in 1953. Instead, they continued to oppress and murder the people there–often merely for trying to escape–for almost forty years longer, and did not stop until the Soviet Union collapsed in the early 1990s.
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In fact Khrushchev was a part of the Stalinist regime and was part of the crimes of Stalinism. In particular Khrushchev was heavily involved WITH STALIN in the carrying out of the Moscow Trials and in the treasonous to socialism executions carried out by the total Stalinist regime. Khrushchev therefore was a central part of this treasonous to socialism regime of Stalin. The giving away of the critical Crimea (critical to Russian security) was therefore a part of a greater whole of treachery by Stalinism as a political creed.
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I doubt that Khrushchev considered this all that significant, since Ukraine was firmly under the Soviet heel at this time. It only became an issue when Ukraine became an independent nation.
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Wellington on historical matters likes to argue not with facts but with assertion. Gravenimage does the same more or less.
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What have I said that is untrue? I will ask the same about Wellington.
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So in the above quote I have used, Gravenimage makes reference only to “Russia” as if Russia was forever one and the same…but Russia of the Czars, Russia of the emergence of the capitalist production and of the modern working class, Russia of the Whites, Russia of Kerensky, Russia of the revolution, and so on. Gravenimage effectively likes to destroy the historical essence.
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What crap. I have never denied that Czarist Russia, Russia with a sadly aborted chance at freedom, Soviet Russia, and the semi-free Russia today have their differences. In fact, I have frequently made note of all these periods of Russian history here.
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The handing across of Crimea gratis was another of those betrayals of Russia by Stalinism.
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Again, I doubt it was considered much of an issue by Khrushchev, since this was all part of the Soviet Union at the time. Moreover, this *did not* happen under Stalin. Khrushchev in fact succeeded him.
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But Stalinism was opposed, Stalinism was fought against, by Lenin as has been referred to in his “Testament”, but carried on after the untimely death of Lenin by Trotsky and many others in that political tendency…that is the thing.
There is an historical record of opposition to Stalinism. The issue of Crimea needs to be placed in THIS historical context.
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Felix Quigley has tried before to claim that all the oppression of the Soviet Union is due to Stalin, but this is simply not the case. Certainly, Stalin was the single cruelest leader of that Communist state–but the others were still brutal and oppressive.
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This Gravenimage and Wellington will not and essentially cannot do as is evidenced by the fact that Gravenimage and Wellington to my knowledge have never referred to the concept and word of “Stalinism”. They need to keep referring in the abstract to “Russia”. This keeps people in ignorance of history and in essence plays the neocon’s game.
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What rot. “Stalinism” is certainly a concept–but it is one that differs little from any other form of Communism. In the same way, Communism differed in its details under Mao and Pol Pot, but this does not mean that “Maoism” was not a mainstream form of Communism.
And no–Russia is not an abstraction. Right now under Putin, Russia–a very real geographical place–is less brutal than it was under Soviet Communism, but it is still far from fully free.
The whole point of the above, of course, is Felix Quigley’s frequent stumping for Trotskyism, which he claims–quite absurdly–would have ushered in a worker’s paradise.
This is the same oppressive creed he wants to impose on us all today.
Wellington says
With you again, my friend.
My oh my, we do get our share of loons here at JW, now don’t we?
gravenimage says
Sadly true, Wellington.
Thankfully, most who post here are staunch Anti-Jihadists. But it is the others who so often wind up claiming our attention.
Felix Quigley says
Robert Spencer does not deal with the issue of Stalinism even though he is giving an historical survey of the Crimea issue in history. This is a big weakness but it is up to Trotskyism to correct it.
However he does say enough. As here…
“Trump and Putin will find plenty of common ground, most significantly in fighting Jihadism and global terrorism. And while there is room for movement on the difficult issues surrounding continued talks on nuclear proliferation, missile defense, and others good diplomacy can work a deal that is in the interests of both nations. There is even room for compromise on Ukraine.”
This is where contributors to Jihadwatch like Wellington would do well to focus on, rather than the ever ready Muslim provocateur Lebel, and talking endlessly about the “Golden Rule” which is like an argument never to end, because this changes over time and who refers to it and at what time.
Both America and Britain today have within them the seeds of a Fascist movement and this can be traced back to the refusal of a large section in America to refuse to accept the rules of the democratic process of election. Basically Trump was elected fairly and squarely…the proto fascists are calling for Trump to be assassinated. The Brexit Referendum was won. Again refusal to accept.
This is the building blacks towards Fascism in both countries.
You cannot have a situation where the democratic system is rubbished and not be moving towards Fascism.
The great thing about the position taken above by Robert Spencer is that he points out that Russia as an independent nation too has got certain political interests. Russia too has the right to self defence.
NATO, the EU, the United Nations are the clear enemy of Russia. They want to approach the border of Russia and thereupon plant their missiles.
The Necons say that Russia must take no action to defend itself.
This was the significance of Trump’s position towards Putin. He sees Putin as more trustworthy than his own FBI and CIA. After all it is the latter who have been striving to impeach him, and it is from there also that an attempt to assassinate Trump will come.
And on that side of treachery sit the whole of the Media in America, excepting Infowars but including Fox News, and perhaps even Hannity on Fox News, because if Hannity has Gingrich to appear again on his show will tell the tale also about Hannity.
Trump has nobody, all he has is the people in his wonderful election victory. Coup and dictatorship are a real possibility.
Such a dictatorship will also close down Jihadwatch.
In this developing situation Gravenimage, Wellington and some others like that on Jihadwatch do not address the issues and in their endless boring debates with provocateurs are playing the Jihad game, even though they do so unconsciously.
Felix Quigley says
One other thing. There is a weakness int he position of Wellington to the NATO wars on Yugoslavia that needs to be made clear.
For whatever reason Wellington is opposed to the NATO war on the Serbs in Kosovo.
However this action against the Serbs was only one of many actions against the Serbs in Yugoslavia as a whole.
The breakup of Yugoslavia may be a good thing or a bad thing, but the point is the wars were all carried out under the instigation of NATO, EU, UN, and many countries like Britain and America.
This was the most direct intervention in the affairs of another sovereign country.
It is the total that needs to be considered.
The big struggle in the world is to put an end to these “interventions” by these powerful nations and blocks of nations.
It is undeniable that Trump and Putin did try in Helsinki. But if it is also undeniable that they have failed then that spells eventually war and the destruction of life on earth.
This was at the centre of Trump meeting Putin and it was just this that the deep state had to oppose with everything. And they are so powerful they have forced Trump to pull back. This will rightly put Putin more on guard.
Things may go downhill fast. That the deep state fascists have been able to humiliate Trump so publicly causes a new situation.
Wellington says
The breakup of Yugoslavia was not instigated by NATO, the US, etc. but rather by the Yugoslavs themselves. Man, how could you get something so wrong? What NATO, the UN and Russia did was essentially nothing as the wars continued in the Nineties. America’s bombing of Serbia in 1999 ended the outright war and atrocity stage and thereafter a less ruthless stage began. BTW, though an American, I have always maintained that America recognizing an independent Kosovo was a mistake.
Peggy says
Bombing of Serbia had absolutely nothing to do with “humanitarian” intervention or any atrocities. It had everything to do with establishing Camp Bondsteel and one way to do that was to break Kosovo away from Serbia.
Do you really believe that civil wars are always started by people there? No, people there are used to start civil war by global powers.
Have you ever heard General Lewis MacKenzie talk about the bombing of Serbia? He was the General in charge of UN at the time of war and he has plenty to say about how things went.
He says “We bombed the wrong side” quite openly and he is in a much better position to determine that than you.
I don’t know why you are so determined to state that Serbia had it coming. I know you don’t actually say it in those words but you always say how atrocities had to stop.
By approving bombing of Serbia you are saying that nobody else need to be bombed so Serbia was the only bad guy.
I don’t know if you have ever listened to people like General MacKenzie, or James Bissett or Scott Taylor but maybe you should make yourself familiar with what they have to say and not trust “The Washington Post” so much.
You might as well quote CNN, NBC AND BBC too.
Maybe you can start here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy1JzwpJ9ec
gravenimage says
More from Felix Quigley:
Robert Spencer does not deal with the issue of Stalinism even though he is giving an historical survey of the Crimea issue in history. This is a big weakness but it is up to Trotskyism to correct it.
…………………..
None of this is particularly salient here. Again–Stalin actually had nothing to do with this.
More:
However he does say enough. As here…
“Trump and Putin will find plenty of common ground, most significantly in fighting Jihadism and global terrorism. And while there is room for movement on the difficult issues surrounding continued talks on nuclear proliferation, missile defense, and others good diplomacy can work a deal that is in the interests of both nations. There is even room for compromise on Ukraine.”
This is where contributors to Jihadwatch like Wellington would do well to focus on, rather than the ever ready Muslim provocateur Lebel, and talking endlessly about the “Golden Rule” which is like an argument never to end, because this changes over time and who refers to it and at what time.
…………………..
*Of course* Communist Felix Quigley wants Wellington and others here to ignore the Golden Rule–how can he hope to impose a Communist dictatorship on us if we care about values like humanitarianism and equality?
More:
Both America and Britain today have within them the seeds of a Fascist movement and this can be traced back to the refusal of a large section in America to refuse to accept the rules of the democratic process of election. Basically Trump was elected fairly and squarely…the proto fascists are calling for Trump to be assassinated. The Brexit Referendum was won. Again refusal to accept.
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The idea that large numbers of Americans are calling for the assassination of President Trump is ridiculous. I live in the bluest of blue states–in the San Francisco bay area. Even here–an area heavily infected with Trump derangement syndrome–I have not heard calls for his assassination. His impeachment, yes. This is absurd, of course, but still is *nothing* like calling for his murder.
There is a small neo-fascist movement in the US and the rest of the West–most notably groups like Antifa. The irony–re Felix Quigley, at least–is that most of these groups are actually quite pro-Communist.
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This is the building blacks towards Fascism in both countries.
You cannot have a situation where the democratic system is rubbished and not be moving towards Fascism.
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Wellington and I have both noted threats of democracy–both from within and without.
The irony here is that Felix Quigley *hates* democracy, and wants to see it replaced with a Communist dictatorship. He is no defender of democracy and freedom.
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The great thing about the position taken above by Robert Spencer is that he points out that Russia as an independent nation too has got certain political interests. Russia too has the right to self defence.
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Sure, they do. I don’t happen to believe that bullying Georgia and Ukraine are part of that, though. I wish Russia were more intent on defending against Jihad than in dominating their neighbors.
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NATO, the EU, the United Nations are the clear enemy of Russia. They want to approach the border of Russia and thereupon plant their missiles.
The Necons say that Russia must take no action to defend itself.
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I don’t believe that protection against Russian aggression is a bad thing–I just don’t think it is the threat that Islam is. And no–the West is not an enemy of Russia. Under the Soviet Union, Russia was an enemy of the free West.
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This was the significance of Trump’s position towards Putin. He sees Putin as more trustworthy than his own FBI and CIA. After all it is the latter who have been striving to impeach him, and it is from there also that an attempt to assassinate Trump will come.
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No, the FBI and CIA have not assassinated President Trump, nor is there reason to believe they are plotting to do so.
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And on that side of treachery sit the whole of the Media in America, excepting Infowars but including Fox News, and perhaps even Hannity on Fox News, because if Hannity has Gingrich to appear again on his show will tell the tale also about Hannity.
Trump has nobody, all he has is the people in his wonderful election victory. Coup and dictatorship are a real possibility.
Such a dictatorship will also close down Jihadwatch.
…………………..
The idea that Sean Hannity is an enemy of Donald Trump is just bizarre.
And no–I don’t think we are apt to see a coup here. American democracy is a lot stronger than Communist Felix Quigley believes.
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In this developing situation Gravenimage, Wellington and some others like that on Jihadwatch do not address the issues and in their endless boring debates with provocateurs are playing the Jihad game, even though they do so unconsciously.
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Wait–exposing those who are pro-Jihad is “playing the Jihad game”? In that case, this must also be true of Robert Spencer and all other Anti-Jihadists.
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The breakup of Yugoslavia may be a good thing or a bad thing, but the point is the wars were all carried out under the instigation of NATO, EU, UN, and many countries like Britain and America.
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Actually, most of what led to the breakup of Yugoslavia was internal fissures, once strongman Tito was no longer around to hold things together.
Peggy says
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Actually, most of what led to the breakup of Yugoslavia was internal fissures, once strongman Tito was no longer around to hold things together.
=======================
Actually, I disagree here.
People’s prejudices and distaste has often been used by global powers to instigate civil wars.
People don’t just happen to start it. They usually have powerful backers promising them good outcomes because it suits those powers.
Yugoslavia had the fourth strongest army in Europe and because it wasn’t in west’s fold posed a great threat and it had to be dismembered.
With a lot of encouragement and support, politically and militarily some rose up starting a bloody war which then engulfed the rest of the population.
Old grievances were being opened up again and scores settled.
There was no way anyone had the means to start a civil war without having powerful backers.
When Bosnia signed an agreement Richard Holbrook told the president to take it back because he will get everything he wants.
Why do you think this was said to him? Why do you think Clinton Administration didn’t allow the agreement to go through if they didn’t have a hand in what started in the first place?
Why were embargos being ignored when it came to supplying the Muslim or Croatian army?
Someone had a lot of interest in that part of the world for it to be just the will of the people.
This is why I know that it was outside meddling that was the cause. People were used to destabilize that country.
Maybe you don’t want to hear this because it’s hitting home but US has been in the business of destabilizing country ever since WW2. How do they do that? Infiltrators, NGOs,
What happened to Yugoslavia wasn’t started by the people. It was planned well before that and people’s stupidity manipulated.
Wellington says
I completely disagree, Peggy. The Yugoslav break-up was due first and foremost to the subterranean antipathy by the various ethnic groups to one another in a country that was artificial to begin with. The fact that you think otherwise speaks volumes.
Peggy says
Wellington says
Jul 20, 2018 at 8:06 pm
I completely disagree, Peggy. The Yugoslav break-up was due first and foremost to the subterranean antipathy by the various ethnic groups to one another in a country that was artificial to begin with. The fact that you think otherwise speaks volumes.
============
You certainly can disagree. We all come to a conclusion which doesn’t suit everyone but to say that my opinion being different speaks volumes is a bit low.
What exactly is it saying?
virginia lamp says
im new to the game but in consideration of whats happening now not in the past i support what putin did..how can you gift a country? what about those living there? who gave the man the right to gift a country with another countr?y..that also is just another form of annexation..forced annexation..under that condition crimea was unprotected by any military..i believe as putin does..prevention is better than trying to treat a wound after its happenend..considering how fast islam is moving back into europe unopposed and being appeased i too would have made this move..why should islam go unapposed after they had already been through ti once..once is plenty and should be a lesson for all..based on this idea european leaders have lost all touch with the realities of islam and their countries past wars to stop islam..europeans are subdued by guilt..survivors guilt..islam claims inccence even though they have murded billions and wiped out hundreds of cultures and claimed their lands for islam..yes they are rebuilding their empire and te liberal politicians are standing there handing them the bricks and tools to do it!!