Recently I’ve gotten quite a few emails from people who claim to be puzzled that I oppose jihad terror and Sharia oppression and yet support Israel. These people do not appear to realize that Israel is on the front lines of the global jihad, and that if they don’t support it, they don’t really oppose jihad terror at all.
The reason why is explained in my new book The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS. This is not only the first and only book in the English language to provide a comprehensive history of the jihad not just against Europe, but worldwide; it is also the first that I know of to situate the founding of the State of Israel and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict within the larger history of the global jihad.
In The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS, you’ll discover:
- The Islamic concept that makes it impossible for believing Muslims ever to accept a State of Israel in any form;
- Franklin D. Roosevelt’s startling reaction when he was presented with plans to establish a Jewish state in the Middle East;
- The renowned Muslim leader who began inciting attacks against Jews in the Holy Land as early as 1919, nearly three decades before Israel was founded;
- The Nazi official who testified at the Nuremberg Trials that the Mufti of Jerusalem had been a central figure in the planning of the genocide of the Jews in Europe;
- The American journalist who met Muslim Brotherhood leader Hasan al-Banna as he was preparing the Brotherhood to attack Israel, and described al-Banna as “the most loathsome man I had yet met in Cairo”;
- “All Arabs shall arise and annihilate the Jews — we shall fill the sea with their corpses”: why the UN’s attempts in 1948 to broker a peaceful settlement between Israel and the Muslim Arabs failed;
- The sinister, shadowy figures who invented the “Palestinian” nationality as a weapon to destroy Israel;
- The vicious Eastern European dictator who trained Yasser Arafat in how to deceive the Western media;
- And much, much more.
This is the one book that explains why the jihad against Israel is not going to be solved by any negotiated settlement, because it proceeds from Islamic imperatives that cannot be negotiated away.
Many will not want to hear this, but choosing comforting fantasy over harsh reality is never productive in the long run. In order to find a solution, we must begin with accurate and realistic premises. Pre-order The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS here.
gravenimage says
Why you don’t really oppose jihad terror and Sharia oppression if you don’t support Israel
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Important point! This is a Jihad against Israel–and the goal is not a “two state solution”, but the utter destruction of Israel. This is in the charters of both Hamas and Fatah.
St. Manuel II Palailogos says
Right, and what’s wrong with the destruction of Israel?
gravenimage says
I see the unhinged antisemite St. Manuel II Palailogos wants to see civilized Israel–the only democracy in the Middle East and only place where Christians can live and worship freely–turned into a Muslim hell hole like Gaza.
And this is not just the destruction of Israel as a state–bad enough. Most Muslims want to follow this up with genocide of the Jews. *Ugh*.
Dawn says
History repeating itself !
carpediadem says
History always repeats itself because humans don’t change.
Sabri S. says
Civilized my ass!!! The illegitimate apartheid creation of israel must be wiped off the face of the earth asap…noZionist, no conflicts…and those imposters are not the black hebrews of the bible and torah either!,,
J D S says
Yeah Graven…There are plenty of people just like St, Manuel who oppose Israel in one way or another.
Opposing Israel to the point of death for Israel and all Jews though, aligns them with Islamist and Sharia law. Ugh!
gravenimage says
Appalling Muslim apologist Sabri S. wrote:
Civilized my ass!!! The illegitimate apartheid creation of israel must be wiped off the face of the earth asap…noZionist, no conflicts…
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No conflicts? Muslims are waging violent Jihad all over the world, most of which has nothing to do with Israel.
But I have heard this grotesque claim before–that if only we allow Muslims to destroy Israel, then violent Jihad will stop.
Of course, Muslims waged violent Jihad for 1300 years before Israel ever existed–but they hope we don’t know that.
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and those imposters are not the black hebrews of the bible and torah either!,,
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We’ve seen *this* before from Muslims. It likely means one of two things–either a reference to all early Jews supposedly being Muslim (Islam claims that all the Jewish prophets were actually Muslim)–or that dhimmi Jews would *never* dare to live free of Muslim oppression, so Israelis must somehow be false Jews.
“Black Hebrews” may also refer to Jews in places like Ethiopia or Eritrea (usually referred to as the “Falasha”). They often had to live under Muslim oppression. Most of them have now escaped to Israel.
Too bad for Mohammedans like this–even with all the Muslim threat and violence, Israel is *thriving*.
gravenimage says
True, J D S. Luckily, champions of Jihad like him are certainly not the norm.
Rarely says
St Michael
By asking the question you exhibit profound ignorance of the situation or, worse yet, overt, unreasoned bigotry. Nothing is the matter with the destruction of Israel if you don’t care that 8 million civilized people will be slaughtered immediately as the result by a vicious barbarian cult.
But you needn’t concern yourself because it isn’t going to happen but if it does there will be an awful lot more than 8 million victims and 72 virgins are going to wish they were elsewhere.
Mathew Joseph says
Sabri S.
You bloody ass, Israel is the only civilised nation in Middle East. Apartheid? A Muslim speaking of apartheid!!! Send it to the next Olympics for the best joke of the millennium medal.
Apartheid is built into Islam by the Koran and Hadith, you bloody ass. You think every non-Muslim is a fool, bloody ass?
Which of the 57 Muslim countries grants equality in law to non-Muslims? Name the non-Muslims who have been allowed to occupy any government posts in these 57 shit holes, you bloody ass. You do know that Muslims are senators, judges and other top government officials in Israel.
Even Muslim sects like the Bahais and Ahamediyyas find safety only in Israel, with the Bahais having their global headquarters there, though the sect originated in the shit hole, Iran.
Where are the Hindus in Pakistan who formed 20 per cent of the population at the division of India into two countries in 1947? Where are the Buddhists and Hindus in Bangladesh?
Where are the Jews and Christians in Turkey, Egypt, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya which were all 100 per cent Christian countries once?
Where are the four ancient branches of Christianity that Islam wiped out? Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Church of the East and the Coptic Church? You bloody ass, do you know that only the Western branch of the original five branches of Christianity survived Islamic atrocities? Have Christians or any other religious group wiped out any branch of Islam? Have their armies even come near Mecca and Madina?
You ass, you have occupied and are still occupying the most holy places of all other religions on earth. Of Jews (Jerusalem, Hebron, Jericho); of Christians (Bethlehem, Nazareth, Jerusalem, Constantinople and the Great Hagia Sophia, Alexandria, Antioch which formed the Great Pentarchy along with Rome, in the ancient church three hundred years before the birth of Muhammad, the despicably evil charlatan); of Hindus (Varanasi, Dwaraka, Madhura); of Buddhists (Bamian and other holy places and rock cut statues of the Buddha in Afghanistan); of Zoroastrians (Persepolis and other holy places in Iran); of Sikhs (Nankana Sahib, the birth place of the founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak, in Pakistan).
Even after all these, you still keep annihilating the tiny minorities of non-Muslims in your shit holes. Like persecuting the pitiably tiny 0.5 per cent Hindus and Sikhs in Afghanistan, oppressing the original inhabitants of Turkey, the Greek Christians who now form just 1 per cent (The country now known as Turkey was called Anatolia for thousands of years and was a Greek nation. The marauding Turks from Central Asia occupied the country 500 years ago), and the Coptic Christians, the original people of Egypt who are not allowed by law to even repair their churches.
Sabri, you should be ashamed to be a Muslim.
Axolotl says
“Right, and what’s wrong with the destruction of Israel?”
There are many good reasons but here’s the bottom line.
The Arabian Peninsula would be turned to ash.
Israel would not fall.
Mo says
@ St. Manuel II Palailogos says
“Right, and what’s wrong with the destruction of Israel?”
Oh, I don’t know. Maybe some people consider genocide an evil thing? What a vile creature you are.
gravenimage says
+1
Mark Swan says
Absolutely Mo.
carpediadem says
What’s wrong with supporting the murder of you?
R Russell says
St Manuel II Palailogos
It’s so sad you do not realise that YHWH God gave that land to the nation of Israel as an everlasting covenant.
Everlasting means everlasting. The land never blossomed when the Jews were in exile. It took the returning Jews particularly from the late 1800s on to see the land become productive again.
The jihad incendiary kites are an attempt of the Arabs to destroy Israel’s productivity. Gaza was also productive prior to their ‘independence’. The first thing the Arabs did was to destroy the glasshouses used for tomato production which would have given them a lot of money from exports.
That was their choice but as usual they blame poverty on Israel. Jihad takes many forms and pleading poverty because of their own actions is just another. Some anti-Semitic countries will always blame Israel.
Hogdude says
Read Deuteronomy 14:2.
Aaron says
Hogdude,
Okay, now read Deuteronomy 14:2 in the context of the rest of the Bible. Do you really believe that it is meant to apply to the Rabbinical Judaism that exists today and which was an offshoot of Phariseeism, really the only thing that existed after God allowed Rome to wipe the nation of Isreal off the map completely?
If so I would suggest you reread all the Gospels very carefully, especially the Gospel of John.
Norman Gardner says
Israel has become a giant in innovation in advancing knowledge in several aspects of medicine, science, water technology, agriculture, computer science and is helping many third world nations improve the quality of living in their respective countries. Israelis have come to the aid of those suffering natural disasters such as Haiti, the Phillipines, Japan, Nepal, India, Indonesia, and in Africa. Israel is a haven for Christians fleeing Arab Muslim countries, they are saving the lives of Syrians seeing aid and sanctuary from their civil war. Only an idiot thinks Israel is an apartheid state.
Clive Stephen Delmonte says
Spot on, Mr Gardner !
gravenimage says
So true, Norman.
Aaron says
St. Manuel II Palailogos, nothing…. Muslims and Rabbinical Jews are two camps of satanic forces. They are in opposition to each because this is nature of all Satanism. Not really any different than the Nazis and the Rabbinical Jews–maybe this is why people think of Islam as a race. The Rabbinical Jews were the first racists. In their rationalization for denying the incarnated Logos, they made their selection as the chosen people about race and not about faith. So 2,000 years later they’re met their own shadow in the Nazis. Could you imagine the argument that says unless you support Israel you don’t really oppose Nazism?
I pray for the conversion of “Jews” so they may really again be members of God’s people. Christianity isn’t racist. It is about faith not race with us…. It is very possible that if Rabbinical Judaism never existed then you wouldn’t have ever had Islam either, as they both can be regarded as Christain heresies. The former certainly helped set the context for later, historically.
gravenimage says
The grotesque “Aaron” claiming that Judaism is satanic is just grotesque.
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Not really any different than the Nazis and the Rabbinical Jews
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In other words, being a Jew is as bad as murdering Jews.
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The Rabbinical Jews were the first racists. In their rationalization for denying the incarnated Logos, they made their selection as the chosen people about race and not about faith.
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What rot–Jesus himself was Jewish.
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So 2,000 years later they’re met their own shadow in the Nazis.
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What absolute crap. When did Jews ever act as the Nazis did?
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It is very possible that if Rabbinical Judaism never existed then you wouldn’t have ever had Islam either, as they both can be regarded as Christain heresies. The former certainly helped set the context for later, historically.
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Good lord, what crap. Judaism much predates Christianity. And now this antisemitic thug is blaming Islam on Judaism. Just sick.
Aaron says
Gravenimage, Judaism doesn’t predate Christianity. What a basic ignorance of history. Judaism wasn’t born until after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 A.D. (and by the way Talmud itself testifies to the fact that no sacrifices of the Temple were found acceptable to God between the Crucifixion of Christ and the destruction of the Temple). Isreal and Judaism were totally destroyed by 132 A.D. The only thing that remained of this faith was the branch later called Christianity which had been grafted on to it. Rabbinical Judaism which is the only Judaism that exists today–although there is a small group who claim to be descended from the Levites who still offer sacrifices in Israel–is a development of Phariseeism. It is religion invented out of the ashes of what Rome destroyed and it was most definitely invented after Christianity–and largely during the next eight centuries in reaction to Christianity. The beliefs of Rabbinical Judaism is basically the theological rationalizations of why Jesus couldn’t have been the Messiah. It is an independent religion created in opposition to the Gospel (just like Islam) by a group of people biologically descended from Abraham to justify their rejection of Jesus.
Aaron says
In other words, the only real jews are in the Church with the rest of the tribes of Israel and the Gentiles. Those who oppose the Church and call themselves “jews” are really only a synagogue of Satan. If you disagree with this then your argument isn’t with me so much as it is with John the Gospel writer.
gravenimage says
The appalling “Aaron” wrote:
Gravenimage, Judaism doesn’t predate Christianity. What a basic ignorance of history.
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Good God, what projection!
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Judaism wasn’t born until after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 A.D. (and by the way Talmud itself testifies to the fact that no sacrifices of the Temple were found acceptable to God between the Crucifixion of Christ and the destruction of the Temple).
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What claptrap–Judaism is thousands of years old.
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Isreal (sic) and Judaism were totally destroyed by 132 A.D. The only thing that remained of this faith was the branch later called Christianity which had been grafted on to it.
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It is usually Muslim apologists who claim that Judaism has nothing to do with Judaism–and hence (somehow) there is no validity to the existence of Israel, since the Jews of today are not actually Jewish.
By this, it would be the case that all of that antimsemitism in Islam actually has nothing to do with Jews.
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Rabbinical Judaism which is the only Judaism that exists today–although there is a small group who claim to be descended from the Levites who still offer sacrifices in Israel–is a development of Phariseeism. It is religion invented out of the ashes of what Rome destroyed and it was most definitely invented after Christianity–and largely during the next eight centuries in reaction to Christianity. The beliefs of Rabbinical Judaism is basically the theological rationalizations of why Jesus couldn’t have been the Messiah. It is an independent religion created in opposition to the Gospel (just like Islam) by a group of people biologically descended from Abraham to justify their rejection of Jesus.
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More ahistorical rot. Jesus himself was referred to as “Rabbi”.
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In other words, the only real jews are in the Church with the rest of the tribes of Israel and the Gentiles. Those who oppose the Church and call themselves “jews” are really only a synagogue of Satan. If you disagree with this then your argument isn’t with me so much as it is with John the Gospel writer.
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Actually, there is nothing in John indicating that Judaism has been destroyed and that Jews no longer exist–what rot.
“Aaron” is just another apologist for the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews. *Ugh*.
The European says
Every nation needs a place it can call home, a territory of its own where it can thrive, a state which protects them and institutions, laws…; every nation wants to preserve its identity. There is nothing wrong with that. Only if Israel claims the same rights for herself, antisemites from all over the world engage in Israel-bashing. Israel belongs to the Jews, and peace negotiations and debates over the so- called two-states solution shouldn’t resume unless the Palestinians recognize the Jewish State and commit themselves by binding treaties to Refrain from further Warfare against Israel.
PJG says
Apparently every nation does NOT want a place it can call home. Look at the European people, willingly embracing their own replacement and even annihilation through mass immigration. Jews were at the forefront of the push for “multiculturalism” which was the beginning of the end for Europe (along with the dastardly EU.) Why were Jews so keen to wipe out Europe? The answer to that goes back a long way.
gravenimage says
The idea that Muslims flooding into the West is a long term plot by Jews to “wipe out Europe” is just calumny.
Jews who believe that Muslims are needy refugees are no different from Gentiles who foolishly believe the same.
That you now appear to stand for Jihad against civilized Israel–our only ally in the region–is really quite appalling.
PJG says
Gravenimage: calm down.Now I “stand for” Jihad? What are you smoking??
Please read the Communist Manifesto and consider the Bolshevik Revolution (mostly Jewish) in Russia. All of Christendom is targeted, not just Germany.
Yes, many Jews are naive. They are not the ones I am talking about.
All groups of people – religious, national etc – have different opinions and attitudes within their groups. I do not see Jews as a united group any more than I see Christians – or anyone – as united. However, there are enough of them holding the agenda I mentioned to make a huge impact on our world.
If you read “Culture of Critique” by Kevin Macdonald you will see what I mean.
PJG says
“Our only ally in the region…”
Bizarre. Why do we need an “ally in the region”?
What business do we have in the Middle East such that we need an ally there?
Is any Middle Eastern country a threat to you in the US, or us in Australia?
Is Israel an “ally” in OUR regions?
I see the US as an ally of Israel, for sure. 100%! But the other way round? H’mmm…
gravenimage says
PJG wrote:
Gravenimage: calm down.Now I “stand for” Jihad? What are you smoking??
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If you support the Jihad destruction of Israel–and it appears that you do–then that is indeed standing for Jihad.
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Please read the Communist Manifesto and consider the Bolshevik Revolution (mostly Jewish) in Russia. All of Christendom is targeted, not just Germany.
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Of course I’ve read the Communist Manifesto. Some Jews were pro-Communist, but the implication that the tiny, persecuted minority of Jews in the Soviet Union could–even if they were so inclined–have imposed Communism on that huge territory and maintained it for seventy-five years is absurd.
Moreover, the Soviet Union was extremely antisemitic–I worked with some of the “Refusenik” Jews persecuted there in the 1980s.
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Yes, many Jews are naive. They are not the ones I am talking about.
All groups of people – religious, national etc – have different opinions and attitudes within their groups. I do not see Jews as a united group any more than I see Christians – or anyone – as united. However, there are enough of them holding the agenda I mentioned to make a huge impact on our world.
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Where is there a large number of Jews plotting to destroy Europe? How are they able to impose their will on Europe? Especially after the Holocaust–which *did* happen despite your denial–Jews make up a tiny minority in the EU.
France has the largest Jewish population in Europe, and it is less than 1%.
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If you read “Culture of Critique” by Kevin Macdonald you will see what I mean.
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Yeah–he’s a nasty piece of work. Front Page Magazine takes him on here:
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=4575
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“Our only ally in the region…”
Bizarre. Why do we need an “ally in the region”?
What business do we have in the Middle East such that we need an ally there?
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Well, of course–why would someone who thinks that we should have handed all of Europe over to the Fascists think that it is important that we acknowledge civilized democracies as our allies? *Ugh*.
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Is any Middle Eastern country a threat to you in the US, or us in Australia?
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Saudi Arabia was largely behind 9/11, and Iran was involved. Libya under Ghadaffi was responsible for Lockerbie. Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf States are involved with Da’wa preaching violent Jihad, as is Turkey.
The idea that Islam is not a threat to us is simply grotesque. There have been over 30,000 Jihad terror attacks just since 9/11, including those by state actors.
Moreover, very few Muslim states actually deter Jihad against the Infidels. And why would they?
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Is Israel an “ally” in OUR regions?
I see the US as an ally of Israel, for sure. 100%! But the other way round? H’mmm…
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We’ve heard *this* crap before–that the perfidious Jooos do nothing for the US or any other country in the West.
Except, of course, that this is a lie–Israeli intelligence has been used to foil a large number of Jihad terror attacks in the West. Of course, at this point you don’t appear to consider this to be a good thing.
Chantal says
I guess Pailalogos would not see it a big deal if the Palestinians and their state were annihilated. The difference is that Israel is building and prosperous. The Palestinians suck up as much money as they can from western countries pretending to be refugees after 15 years.
Pete says
First the saturday people, then the suday people.
Get it?
gravenimage says
+1
PJG says
Ha ha…Jihad Watch allows dissent now? Hallelujia!
PJG says
Gravenimage: you have not woken up yet?
After all these years?
gravenimage says
Woken up? I woke up to the threat of Jihad many years ago. What are you referring to?
And *of course* Jihad Watch allows dissent. This is clear from just this thread.
St. Manuel II Palailogos says
Support the lesser evil? I don’t get it. Can’t you oppose both?
gravenimage says
What is “evil” about Israel? Her being a vibrant innovative state? Her protecting Jews and Christians? Her human rights record, despite her being under constant threat? Her courage in the face of endless Jihad? Her being an ally to the civilized nations of the world?
Rarely says
gravenimage
Didn’t you know that Israel is evil because it defends itself?
What nerve for 6 million Jews (and 2 million other Israelis) to have defended themselves successfully against a few hundred million muslim arabs for the last 70 years!
How dare Israel allow Freedom of Religion and extend full human rights to women of all things? And to gays too. They even have Gay Day Parades!!!
How dare Israel have schools, hospitals, research facilities, numerous inventions and innovations and a pretty vibrant society?
How dare those 8 million develop more innovative technologies in a week then the entire muslim arab world has done in 1400 years?
Why Israel’s very existence makes the arab world look like a backwoods swamp of ignorance and vicious tribal warfare.
So you see gravenimage Israel is evil.
gravenimage says
Yes–that’s how they see it, Rarely.
Aaron says
Gravenimage to find out what is wrong with the “jews” you merely have to read the Gospel of St. John. Remember when the parents of the blind man Jesus healed were afraid to testify about Jesus for fear of the “Jews”.
The Judaism that exists today is as an independent religion which began after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 A.D. It defines itself largely in reaction to Christianity. For example, you could be a Buddhist and still be a Jew. You can even be an atheist and still be a jew. But if you confess that Yeshua is Lord then every synagogue, no matter how liberal or progressive, will see you expelled. Being a Jew was never about race, but about faith. Again, both Jesus and St. John the Baptist make this very clear in the Gospel. The Covenant the God has made with Isreal today is through the Church, the New Israel. After Pentecost, the gentile and those Jews who did not recognize Christ traded places. In other words, Pentecost was the opposite of what happened with the Tower of Babel. After Pentecost, the Jews were given over to a rebellious spirit, which is clear from the historical record. This isn’t anti-Semitism because Christ was a Jew–Jews are totally welcome into the Church. It is about the Synagogue of State, as St. John called them who falsely claim to be God’s chosen people today because they biological heirs of Abraham–well so are the Arabs. Jesus said plainly already in his day, before the Pentecost that they were children of Satan. Well, this wasn’t true of all the Jews then, but it because true of all the Jews who refused to respond to the Messiah’s call.
Tom W Harris says
Blow it out yer azz.
Rarely says
What total hogwash.
gravenimage says
“Aaron’s” repeating this tripe doesn’t make is so. What a tool.
PJG says
It is not tripe, Gravenimage. These things warrant debate. For a start, what he said from St John is true.Is the Bible wrong?
gravenimage says
PJG, so now you actually believe that the genocide of the Jews ‘warrants debate’? Very disturbing.
I don’t believe that the Book of John refers to all Jews, nor that it mandates wiping out Jews.
Islam threatens *all of us*–Jewish and Gentile. That some here are intent on throwing civilized Israel to the Muslim wolves–the only democracy, our only ally, and the only place where Christians are safe in the Middle East–I find *quite* appalling.
PJG, you used to be a staunch Anti-Jihadist who posted here often–and you are back after months–or longer–to laud the destruction of our ally Israel. For God’s sake, what happened?
PJG says
Yes, Gravenimage, I believe that anything in history held as immutable truth can be debated if there seem to be flaws in the story.
It is bizarre that anyone questioning any aspect of the “Holocaust” is immediately screeched at as a “Jew-hater” or “anti-Semite”.
Jewish historians themselves amended the number of deaths at Auschwitz from 4 million to one and a half million. Logically, the number of 6 million would then be revised, yes? No, apparently not. The number has to remain, for some bizarre reason, “6 million”.
Why? The question of “why” opens a door to many other questions.
As for Aaron, mostly I don’t know what he is talking about so I can’t comment on most of it. But some of what he says makes sense. That does not mean I “laud the destruction” of Israel. Goodness me…
Christians, by the way, were quite safe in Syria under Assad’s protection. Who meddled with Syria and why? Oh, “jihadists”? The story is more complicated.
And of course the Book of John does not refer to all Jews.
gravenimage says
PJG wrote:
Yes, Gravenimage, I believe that anything in history held as immutable truth can be debated if there seem to be flaws in the story.
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Of course anything in history can be debated.
Bu the idea that weighing in on a thread about Jihadists destroying Israel with sneering at the idea of death camps is *not* innocent.
As I noted, this is the most chronicled atrocity in history. The idea that it never happened–and that instead the tiny minority of Jews were being violent to the Nazi war machine–is just grotesque.
And even if the Holocaust had never happened, your applauding the horrors of Fascism is horrifying. The idea that the free West would have happily handed Poland, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, and France over to conquest by Hitler were it not for the ‘perfidious Joooooos’ is quite sickening.
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It is bizarre that anyone questioning any aspect of the “Holocaust” is immediately screeched at as a “Jew-hater” or “anti-Semite”.
Jewish historians themselves amended the number of deaths at Auschwitz from 4 million to one and a half million. Logically, the number of 6 million would then be revised, yes? No, apparently not. The number has to remain, for some bizarre reason, “6 million”.
Why? The question of “why” opens a door to many other questions.
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Pretending that the six million figure only comes from Jews is, of course, claptrap–it was first mentioned by Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, an Austrian-born official in the Third Reich and a trained historian who served in a number of senior positions in the SS. He testified at the Nuremberg Trials.
And he got the figure from the top: “Eichmann … told me that, according to his information, some 6,000,000 Jews had perished until then — 4,000,000 in extermination camps and the remaining 2,000,000 through shooting by the Operations Units and other causes, such as disease, etc.”
Yad Vashem, Israel’s principal Holocaust research center, quotes the Eichmann reference, and then says that both early and more recent estimates by a variety of different scholars have fallen between five and six million.
So this general figure has been verified by a large number of researchers.
And, again, they come from German records–comparing pre-war census data and records from the camps themselves.
Yad Vashem also keeps a database of names of victims–which again falls in this general range.
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As for Aaron, mostly I don’t know what he is talking about so I can’t comment on most of it. But some of what he says makes sense. That does not mean I “laud the destruction” of Israel. Goodness me…
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That is what this story is about. You sneer at the idea, but do not deny it–nor have you said anything that leads me to believe you have any interest in saving Jews from Jihad.
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Christians, by the way, were quite safe in Syria under Assad’s protection.
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Actually, they have been anything but. Jihad Watch itself has numerous stories of persecution of Christians in Syria under Assad before the recent civil war.
But they are no doubt safer under him than they would be under, say, ISIS.
This is rather like the Copts supporting Al-Sisi in Egypt, despite the violent persecution of Christians there–because it would have been even worse under the Muslim Brotherhood.
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Who meddled with Syria and why? Oh, “jihadists”? The story is more complicated.
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What is this supposed to mean? Assad is facing a Jihad from Sunni Jihadists. I see that you are now sneering at the idea that bloody Jihad is a threat.
Is this some sort of bizarre implication that Israel is the one behind Jihad?
Mirit says
Is it evil to defend yourself from Jihadists who want to destroy you because your very existence bothers them?
carpediadem says
In islam and the UN’s eyes it is.
PJG says
“Death camps”? Do some research.
I did, after being attacked viciously by Jews on facebook after questioning their line that the camps should have been BOMBED when the rumours came out about the gas chambers. I asked in all innocent honesty “bombed? Kill innocent Jews in concentration camps on a rumour that they were going to be killed?” It didn’t make sense to me. I was horrified at the abuse I was subjected to after that by Jewish people. Their accusations (and abuse) made no sense…so I started to investigate the Holocaust. Not a good idea if you want to be a good goy.
gravenimage says
Wait–now you are a Holocaust denier? Good God–this is the most heavily chronicled atrocity in history.
I had a boyfriend whose father was involved with the liberation of Dachau as a young soldier.
PJG says
A “Holocaust denier”.
You see how quick you are to label people with these deathly labels?
That label can have a person sent to jail or lose their home.
But there is much about the Holocaust that doesn’t make sense.
Naturally, I do my research in private. I don’t want to lose my home.
gravenimage says
What crap. I am not threatening to take PJG’s home. I am just calling her out on her sickening denial of history.
The idea that i am trying to harm her by telling the truth is utter calumny.
Mirit says
What is wrong with you? Right now Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Afgaistan, Pakistan are destroying themselves with tribal Jihadi, terrorist wars. Did you say – what is wtong with their destruction? No.
You said what is wrong with destroying Israel. What is right about destroying Israel? Are you a Muslim?????
Mirit says
My comment was a reply to st. Manuel ‘s comment.
gravenimage says
Mirit, he poses as a Christian, but hates Jews, secularists, and all Christians who are not Orthodox. And he actually relishes the specter of most people being slaughtered by Muslims. *Very* disturbing.
Thankfully, there are not many like him.
I stand with Israel!
Mirit says
Thank God there are smart people like you. I mean it.
He is an evil man.
gravenimage says
Thank you, Mirit.
Aaron says
It is a provocation to all of Christendom that the “jews” are calling Palestine, “Israel”. Yet, we accept it with good nature as Christians because we know all authority is in truth God’s sole possession. Israel belongs to the Messiah and those faithful to the Messiah. Just like there was an underlying justice expressing, itself, if tragically, during the Holocaust of both World Wars there is a justice being expressed now in a false Jerusalem, as the city called Jerusalem is most definitely not at a city at one with itself. This is because Islam and Rabbinical Judaism are both false religions. Yes, they will destroy each other. This is given that no earthly power can prevent.
dumbledoresarmy says
Nonsense.
The term ‘Palestine’, derived from the PHILISTINES, was imposed upon eretz Yisroel BY PAGAN ROME. It was intended to erase the historic name and meaning of Israel.
There is NOTHING mystically ‘Christian’ about the term ‘Palestine’: a geographic toponym imposed, in hatred and contempt, by a pagan Empire.
Israel is a Biblical name.
‘Palestine’ .. ISN’T.
‘Philistia’, perhaps, for the portion of the coast settled by the invading Mediterranean ‘sea-people’.
The New Testament writers never use the word ‘Palestine’ even *once*.
dumbledoresarmy says
I have a question for you.
Had you been living in either Germany or in any part of occupied Europe during the Third Reich, **would you have willingly and actively handed over any Jewish persons known to you, to be butchered in the death camps**???
Aaron says
Dumbledoresarmy,
The New Testament writers didn’t speak about Isreal after her destruction by the Romans (the end of the second Roman Jewish war) in 132 A.D. The “Jews” were like mad rabid beasts during this time and they basically committed suicide as a national culture on the Roman sword. Christianity, of course, would later go on the conquer Rome and in the process ended up producing Western Civilization. Of course, Christianity isn’t a “Western Religion” just because it is the source of Western Culture. Christianity could have been just as amenable to Chinese civilization in every way that it was with Hellenistic civilization. There are 30,000 baptisms a day in China currently and eventually the Chinese Christianity will be re-evangelized throughout the world just as it was by Rome.
The devastation was total. Even today what Jews believe is the Wall of Temple is really a Wall of the Roman fort. The Temple as Jesus said was so totally destroyed that we have a hard time finding it today. Although based on the writings of Flavius Josephus we about where it must have been. The current model of 1st century Jerusalem made by Michael Avi-Yonah, although supposedly based on Josephus is not when critically examined. The destruction was total and Israel as place as well as Jerusalem was gone and it won’t be back until Jesus returns.
As for your second question. Of course not. To me, the Jews and the Nazis are just mirror images of each other. They are both cults defined principally by their commitments to reject the Logos and their racial identities. As a Christian, I total rebuke racism in all its forms. If I was alive in Germany durning the 1930 I would no doubt be a concentration camp myself for my religious beliefs. Remember as a Christian I would identify Jews as an enemy–since they oppose the Messiah as a self-definition, but we are to show our enemies love. So I most would have risked my own life for them during that time–but I would have done this for the love of Jesus.
Aaron says
Sorry for the typos and word omissions. Still, I trust the basic import of my comment was comprehensible?
The point is if you believe today’s Judaism has anything to do with the ancient faith Israel then you don’t really appreciate how total and complete was the destruction of the Roman Jewish wars, just as Christ had foretold.
The second point, which goes to the topic of this story is the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily a friend which was Spencer’s point. It is also the thinking of the world and of Islam. However, as a Christain, I also acknowledge that my enemies aren’t to be hated–in fact as hard as it is to do they are even to be loved for the sake of the love of Christ. Still, we are to resist their evilness and this applies just as much to the Jews as it does to the Muslims–or even the Nazis. They are all basically rival factions of the same satanic impulse.
Your binary way of thinking that if you don’t support something then you must be ruthlessly opposed to it is an anathema to Christianity but rather reflects a worldly attitude.
gravenimage says
The foul “Aaron” wrote:
Just like there was an underlying justice expressing, itself, if tragically, during the Holocaust
……………………
There was *nothing* “just” about the mass murder of the Holocaust. What a genocidal thug.
PJG says
Dumbledoresarmy; so now Jews were “butchered”? Not gassed and cremated?
And you believe that Germans simply stood by and watched as Jews were taken away to be “butchered”?
For one thing, Germans had no idea what was going on in the concentration camps. The US also had concentration camps for enemy aliens and those people (Japanese) were not hurt. Don’t forget Jews had declared war on Germany already (international Jewry).Should Germany have ignored that?
Secondly, the Red Cross said 270,000 people (not all Jews) died in the concentration camps, mostly from typhus and starvation. 270,000, not 6 million. And were they deliberately starved to death? Germans also starved to death during and AFTER WW2 with the implementation of the abominable Morganthau Plan.
The story of Germany in WW2 was much more complicated than we have been led to believe it was.
gravenimage says
The increasingly appalling PJG wrote:
Dumbledoresarmy; so now Jews were “butchered”? Not gassed and cremated?
…………………………….
You don’t consider deliberately gassing people to be butchery? For God’s sake, why not?
More:
And you believe that Germans simply stood by and watched as Jews were taken away to be “butchered”?
For one thing, Germans had no idea what was going on in the concentration camps.
…………………………….
After a point, ordinary Germans stood by for almost anything under the Nazis, either out of agreement or out of fear.
When you see what happened to the few brave people who tried to speak out–such as members of the White Rose–they were apt to wind up in those same concentration camps.
Some Germans knew how bad the camps were–and some did not want to know. It was safer not to.
More:
The US also had concentration camps for enemy aliens and those people (Japanese) were not hurt.
…………………………….
Firstly, many Americans now recognize this as a terrible mistake. Further, these were *never* death camps. In fact, most Japanese left the camps long before the war ended, moving inland.
President Reagan issued a formal apology to Japanese internees as well as compensation for their losses.
More:
Don’t forget Jews had declared war on Germany already (international Jewry).Should Germany have ignored that?
…………………………….
Just grotesque. Almost all Jews were loyal citizens of Germany–and great contributors to German society. It is Fascists who rant about “International Jewry”.
More:
Secondly, the Red Cross said 270,000 people (not all Jews) died in the concentration camps, mostly from typhus and starvation. 270,000, not 6 million.
…………………………….
The idea that the Red Cross is involved in Holocaust denial is utterly false:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial#International_Committee_of_the_Red_Cross
And the fact that the Nazis were slaughtering others–among them Gypsies, homosexuals, and critics of the vile Nazi regime–as well as Jews does not make things better, it makes them *worse*.
More:
And were they deliberately starved to death? Germans also starved to death during and AFTER WW2 with the implementation of the abominable Morganthau Plan.
…………………………….
What claptrap. Certainly, Nazi policies led to hunger for Gentile Germans, but this was *nothing* like the starvation of concentration camp inmates.
One can see film of Germans being taken through the camps after liberation–most of the Germans on on the thin side, but this is nothing like the camp inmates, who are skeletal and obviously starving–nor the piles of skeletal corpses of those who had already starved to death.
More:
The story of Germany in WW2 was much more complicated than we have been led to believe it was.
…………………………….
So now you have given up opposing Jihad in order to spout apologia for both Jihadists and Nazis?
Again, PJG, *what the hell happened to you*?
PJG says
What happened to me?
I kept reading.
Do look up the Morganthau Plan. I only read about that a week ago and was horrified. What happened to the Germans after WW2 was shameful.
No victors of war should starve, rape, mutilate and slaughter the civilians of a country they have defeated.
Last week I finished reading “The Myth of German Villainy” (by Benton L Bradberry).. Quite an eye-opener.
I never wanted to know these things but once I started reading, I felt compelled to continue, and by the time I finished it I felt quite traumatised.
That my side (the “good” side) could have allowed such terrible things to have happened because they were brainwashed shocked me to the core.
Jihadists are not our only problem.
Our worst problem is gullibility.
gravenimage says
Yet more from PJG:
What happened to me?
I kept reading.
Do look up the Morganthau Plan. I only read about that a week ago and was horrified. What happened to the Germans after WW2 was shameful.
………………………………
Of course I am familiar with the Morganthau Plan. The most notable thing about it is that it was *never implemented*. So this is not something that happened to Germany. What crap.
What was actually implemented was the Marshall Plan–the most generous treatment of any defeated people in human history. All the more remarkable given that Nazi Germany was the aggressor.
More:
No victors of war should starve, rape, mutilate and slaughter the civilians of a country they have defeated.
………………………………
The Western Allies never did this to Germany–what utter calumny.
Nor did the Morganthau Plan have any such elements. At most, it suggested that Germany should be thoroughly demilitarized, including partial de-industrialization. As noted, it was never implemented.
In fact, the US spent huge amounts of money to help Germany rebuild. Just fifteen years after the war, West Germany (and Japan) were the wealthiest and most innovative nations in their regions.
Allied treatment of Germany was civilized–not so Nazi treatment of the nations it had conquered, which was utterly savage.
More:
Last week I finished reading “The Myth of German Villainy” (by Benton L Bradberry).. Quite an eye-opener.
………………………………
Good Lord–the idea that the invasion and conquest of most of Europe–and attempted invasion and conquest of Britain–was a “myth” is grotesque.
I’ve heard this crap before from Neo-Nazis–that poor little Germany was simply forced to savagely roll over most of Europe because mean old Britain and France made them do it. Uh huh…
More:
I never wanted to know these things but once I started reading, I felt compelled to continue, and by the time I finished it I felt quite traumatised.
………………………………
Wait–you are traumatized by poor Germany having to conquer and oppress huge swaths of the world, but sneer at the victims of the Holocaust? No, reading itself does not lead to this apologia for evil.
More:
That my side (the “good” side) could have allowed such terrible things to have happened because they were brainwashed shocked me to the core.
………………………………
How *dare* the free world have opposed Fascism? No wonder you are loath to have us now stand against the horrors of Jihad.
More:
Jihadists are not our only problem.
Our worst problem is gullibility.
………………………………
Actually, you have not indicated on this thread that you consider Jihad to be a problem at all.
And no–standing against totalitarian horrors like Fascism, Communism, and Islam does not mean one is gullible–it means that one is morally decent.
Cicero says
I also stand with Israel and her vibrant democracy !
Aaron says
Liberal democracy is a Protestant heresy. In the end, it is just as bad and oppressive to Christians as is Islam or Communism or would be a worldwide Jewish state.
gravenimage says
Who can be surprised that the vile “Aaron” hates freedom and democracy, as well?
Hari Singh says
Israel is the front line in the War with Islam and the ethnicities that push it as part of their national identities. Many Muslims think Islam is their ethnicity, saying they are part of the Muslim Nation.
Muslim nationalism means jihad,
Muslim power means jihad, Muslim success in arms means Jihad.
Muslim wealth means fundamentalist missionaries preaching Jihad.
Israel humiliated the armies of the Arab world, that was a good thing for the rest of the world.
Israel is like Britain in 1940, all to often standing alone against evil.
Support Israel.
Visit Israel it’s a combination of Miami Beach and a good historical tour.
gravenimage says
+1
carpediadem says
“Visit Israel it’s a combination of Miami Beach and a good historical tour.”
LOL, a great description!!
dumbledoresarmy says
Yes.
And that’s what the unhinged Jew-hateres in this thread simply refuse to ‘get’.
Simone says
Love you Hari
Cicero says
Yes I hope to!
Many African Caribbean Christians are visiting Israel in ever increasing numbers.
They are very appreciative of Israeli culture and her peoples. They know the mportance of Israel,s contribution to Biblical history .
Mirit says
My comment was a reply to st. Manuel ‘s comment.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Mr spencer, the theory justifying continued illegal occupation of Palestinian land on the ground that palestinians have been offered two states solution for several times and they rejected it through Arab/muslim countries and that the existence of fascist evil Zionist State is being threatened by jihadis you have been propagating are not tenable under international Law. Remember, UN Resolution No 181 partitioning the land into two states ,palestine and fascist evil Zionist State, is a multilateral treaty, which no state or Group of states could reject or reverse ,and the Resolution never gives latitude to any of the two states, palestine or fascist evil Zionist State, to annex the other when it feels threatened. Again, another UN Resolution No 241 required fascist evil Zionist State of Israel to withdraw back to pre-1967 borders, but the evil Zionist State refused to comply,it rather started construction of permanent Jewish settlements on palestinian territory, which another UN Resolution declared as illegal. Finally, savage mad devil Trump recognised the whole Jerusalem, including East Jerusalem within Palestinian territory, as capital of fascist evil Zionist State of Israel. The fascist evil Zionist State has been carrying out mass killings of Palestinians as ethnic cleansing to wipe out Palestinian state.
So, if jihadis have expressed their intention of wiping out evil Zionist State, the evil state is presently carrying out its plan of wiping out Palestinian state. I submit that fascist evil Zionist State of Israel is the worst terrorist state carrying out acts of international brigandage usurping land cleansing Palestinian race from the surface of this earth. wicked scums of evils!!
Rarely says
Ibrahim
What do you say to the 50,000 children on the brink of dying of starvation in Yemen? Your lovely brethren are slaughtering each other and the local civilians and for what?
Just how is that the fault of Israel, the US or the Jews?
You won’t answer, of course.
Rarely says
BTW Ibrahim.
More muslims have died in the little event in Yemen in the past few years than ALL the muslims in wars and attacks on Israel since 1947. So who are the “wicked scums of evil” really? There are =/- 2,000,000 muslim arabs living in Israel today taking part at all levels from doctors to University presidents to Members of Parliament. Some ethnic cleansing. Who are the real murderers? You would know if you had more brain cells than just enough o keep your heart beating.
gravenimage says
The vicious Ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:
Mr spencer, the theory justifying continued illegal occupation of Palestinian land on the ground that palestinians have been offered two states solution for several times and they rejected it through Arab/muslim countries and that the existence of fascist evil Zionist State is being threatened by jihadis you have been propagating are not tenable under international Law. Remember, UN Resolution No 181 partitioning the land into two states ,palestine and fascist evil Zionist State, is a multilateral treaty, which no state or Group of states could reject or reverse ,and the Resolution never gives latitude to any of the two states, palestine or fascist evil Zionist State, to annex the other when it feels threatened.
……………………………
It was, of course, Muslims who rejected UN Resolution No 181, because they thought they were poised to destroy Israel.
And Ibrahim itace muhammed saying that Muslims cannot annex the Jewish state is absurd–he has lauded Hizb’allah and Hamas many times here, who both have the destruction of Israel in their charters.
More:
Again, another UN Resolution No 241 required fascist evil Zionist State of Israel to withdraw back to pre-1967 borders, but the evil Zionist State refused to comply,it rather started construction of permanent Jewish settlements on palestinian territory, which another UN Resolution declared as illegal. Finally, savage mad devil Trump recognised the whole Jerusalem, including East Jerusalem within Palestinian territory, as capital of fascist evil Zionist State of Israel.
……………………………
Of course, Ibrahim itace muhammed does not want to see Israel within pre-1967 borders–he just thinks she will be more vulnerable for destruction.
And he is enraged that the United States has recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
More:
The fascist evil Zionist State has been carrying out mass killings of Palestinians as ethnic cleansing to wipe out Palestinian state.
……………………………
Talk about projection! Israel is just trying to defend against the Jihad against her. Bu then, Ibrahim itace muhammed has said that no Infidel has any right to defend against Jihad.
More:
So, if jihadis have expressed their intention of wiping out evil Zionist State, the evil state is presently carrying out its plan of wiping out Palestinian state. I submit that fascist evil Zionist State of Israel is the worst terrorist state carrying out acts of international brigandage usurping land cleansing Palestinian race from the surface of this earth. wicked scums of evils!!
……………………………
Except that it is not happening. He was right the first time–that the purpose of the Jihad against Israel is her destruction.
And there is no “Palestinian race”–these are just the local Arab Muslims.
Moreover, Ibrahim itace muhammed has himself said that he looks forward to personally take part in the genocide of the Jews. *Ugh*.
KJW says
Ibrahim, if Israel is doing ethinic cleansing, as you say, then how come the population in Gaza keeps increasing? That means then that Israel is failing at that. You make it seem like there are all these massacres and like recently, most of those killed were Hamas combatants and their soldiers which includes young boys. I suppose you’re OK with Palestinian parents sending their kids out into volatile situations. There are also tons of Palestinians in Jordan.
How many Israelis have gone into Gaza and blown themselves up on a public bus or mall?
Palestine makes billions of dollars from foreign funding for their perpetual war and it’s not mostly going to the average Palestinian. War is profitable for them. Hamas said they won’t accept a two-state solution or any such thing…they want it all.
flo says
ibrahim you are the most evil man on earth. to you muslim it is alright to destroy Israel but Israel cannot defend itself by retaliating against any attack by evil muslim. muslims are sex maniac because they want to die as martyr so that they can have the 72 virgins! God will surely sent you ibrahim to hell.
gravenimage says
Unfortunately, Flo, there are many Muslims as evil as this one. That’s the whole problem.
Peter WF says
Israel was formed after a successful terrorist action / war against British colonial rulers.
Therefore they know how to deal with terrorists.
They are tough on the terrorists (and their families) because that is simply what is required. And the arm chair observers, and the source/s of the terrorism, are very critical of their successful actions.
May I suggest there is a cycle that occurs in the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Every so often there is the destruction of Palestinian infrastructure interceded with relative “peace”. Once the reconstruction is done we have a situation of “Idle hands do the devils work.” which grows to a point where …..
Camilo says
Dear Mr Spencer,
I am not sure if you will read or reply this. But, I am a big fan from Chile. Regarding this topic, I would like to know if you have some information about the persecution of the Christian Palestinian by the Muslim Palestinian. I have trying to find information about this but there is very little. Most of the books I have found are a compilation of testimonies where the people claim the Israeli government is very neutral to this situation.
Also in the current historiography the people usually claim the Palestinian diaspora started after the Nakba of 1948. But there is almost nothing about the christian migration from Syria, Lebanon or Palestine under the Otoman empire. Could you suggest me some books?
Best Regards, your brother in Christ,
Camilo
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Camilo, where have got the idea that Christians are being persecuted in Palestine and by whom? Remember, the fascist evil Zionist State have been carrying out atrocities on palestinians, both Muslims ànd christians. Do you know it is only among Palestinians that you find christians ,both in palestinian territory and in the fascist evil Zionist State of Israel? Non of the evil Jews in the fascist evil Zionist State is a Christian. Get it correct, please
Camilo says
Hi Ibrahim,
Not sure if we are talking the same. Of course I know the Christian population is Palestinian, and this is among the cities located inside Israel (such as Nazareth) or inside West Bank (such as Bethelen). I really think you are underestimated me. Nevertheless, since you replied I will try to answer.
There is some books that are focus on the Christian Palestinian problem. For example: Human Rights of Christians in Palestinian-Society by Justus Reid Weiner, or Palestinian Christians in Israel State Attitudes towards Non Muslims in a Jewish State by Una McGahern, among others.
I am not supporting Israel, I am just concern about my brother in faith who are Palestinians and that are being persecuted inside their communities for religious reasons.
When I am using the adjectives “Christian” or “Muslim” before Palestinian, it is just because following the any modern approach of ethnic conflict I barely can claim there is only one ethnic group called Jewish or Palestinian. I suggest you the book of Sinsa Malesevic “The sociology of ethnicity”.
Camilo
gravenimage says
The vicious Ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:
Camilo, where have got the idea that Christians are being persecuted in Palestine and by whom? Remember, the fascist evil Zionist State have been carrying out atrocities on palestinians, both Muslims ànd christians. Do you know it is only among Palestinians that you find christians ,both in palestinian territory and in the fascist evil Zionist State of Israel? Non of the evil Jews in the fascist evil Zionist State is a Christian. Get it correct, please
…………………..
No, the Israelis are not persecuting Christians. Muslims have driven out or slaughtered most of the Christians in Gaza, and those in the “Palestinian territories” are more and more threatened.
“Muslim persecution of Christians worsens in Palestinian territories, Israel”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2015/06/muslim-persecution-of-christians-worsens-in-palestinian-territories-israel
Camilo says
Mr/Mrs gravenimage,
To be honest, I think that I was expecting people who do not read what they first think.
“Wait–now Camilo is saying that Muslims are abusing and persecuting Christians because of Israel?
He is *quite* mistaken–Muslims have been oppressing and murdering Christians in the Levant since long before the existence of the modern state of Israel.
”
From where are you concluding that? Please read twice for the next time. Even I quoted two books about the topic where is clearly that muslims has been loong before persecuting christian in the area.
I am over with this. This forum is full of just people who just want to be polemic
gravenimage says
Camilo could read the link I provided him with if he is actually concerned about this issue.
Joe says
There are so few Christians left in the Holy Land that we can consider the migration over. I read about the migration mostly in various charity magazines. Many migrated to the Caribbean and Central America.
In addition, many Christians from Turkey migrated to the USA. I only know that because I have met some of them.
I know what you mean, though. It is sort of weird that these huge migrations of people fleeing genocide by Islam is so undocumented.
gravenimage says
Robert Spencer’s own ancestors had to flee persecution and violence in Turkey.
Buraq says
@ Ibe itace Mohamed
Hi Habibi! Here is the reason you hate Zionists! It’s called jealousy. Why?
Zionism has worked, that’s why. There were slim chances that a scattered national group could be assembled from some 70 countries into a sliver-sized territory lacking resources and facing many enemies, yet somehow survive, much less prosper. The odds that those immigrants would forge a national identity capable of producing a vibrant literature, pace-setting arts and six of the world’s leading universities seemed impossible.
Around the world, indigenous languages are dying out, forests are dying, and the populations of industrialized nations are plummeting. Yet Zionism has revived the Hebrew language, which is now more widely spoken than Danish and Finnish and will soon surpass Swedish. Zionist organizations have planted hundreds of forests, enabling the land of Israel to enter the 21st century with more trees than it had at the end of the 19th. And the family values that Zionism fostered have produced the fastest natural growth rate in the modernized world and history’s largest Jewish community. The average secular couple in Israel has at least three children, reaffirming confidence in Zionism’s future.
By just about any international criteria, Israel is not only successful, but flourishing. Life expectancy in Israel, reflecting its superb universal health-care system, significantly exceeds America’s and that of most European countries. Unemployment is low, the economy is booming. A global leader in innovation, Israel is home to R&D centers of some 300 high-tech companies, including Apple, Intel and Motorola. The beaches are teeming and the rock music is awesome, despite idiots like Roger Waters.
The democratic ideals integral and natural to Zionist thought have caused uprisings in surrounding Arab nations – the various Arab Springs.
And what about your warlike lot, Ibe? Yes, Muslims. Two hours’ drive East of the bustling nightclubs of Tel Aviv—less than the distance between New York and Philadelphia—is Jordan, home to more than a half million refugees from Syria’s civil war. Driving North from Tel Aviv for four hours would bring you to war-ravaged Damascus or, heading East, to the carnage in western Iraq. Turning South, in the time it takes to reach San Francisco from Los Angeles, a traveler would find himself in Cairo’s Tahrir Square, where women cannot go because they would be molested.
Amid the ethnic strife and religious bloodshed, Zionism has put together a multi-ethnic, multi-racial and religiously diverse society. Arabs serve in the Israel Defense Forces, in the Knesset and in the Supreme Court. While Christian communities of the Middle East are being steadily eradicated, Israel’s continues to grow. Israeli Arab Christians are, in fact, on average better educated and more affluent than Israeli Jews.
You’re a clown, Ibe …… and a jealous one at that!
gravenimage says
+1
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Buraq, neither you or liar Gravenimage have addressed the issue of continued illegal occupation of Palestinian territory by fascist evil Zionist State. I said UN Resolution No 181 partitioning the land into two states, Palestinian and Fascist evil Zionist State of Israel, does not give the evil state right to annex Palestinian land and when it did the UN Resolution No 141 required it to get out. Do you mean simply because the evil Zionist State has developed it’s own portion of the land it has right to annex another’s portion violating the same document creating it? Like i said non of the UN Resolutions gives the fascist evil Zionist State the right to annex Palestinian portion when the other side have rejected the document creating it’s right over it’s own portion or that the other side constitutes threat to its existence. Can you or liar Gravenimage cite or quote any provision of UN Resolutions giving the fascist evil Zionist the right to annex Palestinian portion when Palestinian reject the two states solution provided under UN Resolution No 181 creating the two states or where it feels threatened by any group?
Rarely says
You miss out the part that Israel won the West Bank from Jordan, its owner, in the 1967 War. That Israel is willing to set up an independent Palestinian state there in exchange for its own security is an unprecedented and generous act for a country to do. The Palestinians have rejected every offer and there is no reason to believe that will ever change. The ONLY reason that the Israeli settlements are a stumbling block to “peace” is that the Palestinians are racist and avow that any future state will be Jew-free. And still there is room to have a two state solution. As it has often been said: The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Rarely ,you mean Invasion or capture of Palestinian territory by fascist evil Zionist State of Israel overrides UN Resolution No 181 partitioning the land into states, palestine and fascist evil Zionist State of Israel?Remember,another UN Resolution No 241 expressly declared the invasion or annexation of Palestinian portion as illegal because, according to UN Charter, no more acquisition of territory by Invasion or conquest, and that fascist evil Zionist State shall withdraw henceforth to pre-1967 borders. so, Palestinian state is not at the mercy of fascist evil Zionist State as you wrongly assume.
gravenimage says
Of course, it was *Muslims* who rejected UN Resolution No 181, because they thought that Jihadists were poised to destroy Israel.
And Ibrahim itace muhammed does not want a “two state solution”, in any case–he has openly said here that he seeks the destruction of Israel and the genocide of the Jews.
So any “two state solution” would just be an interim situation to weaken Israel and set her up for full destruction.
Pete says
Great response to that mindless idiot ibby.
But his mitraish stupidity is more than muhamads
Lawrence says
Spencer doesn’t bother mentioning that the same people who moan about Islamic State, Taliban etc. support the Jihad against Israel because these same folk are Jew haters. Why does Spencer not come out and say it? Is he so afraid of calling out the pro-Jihad-against-Israel-but-opposing-it-everywhere-else-Jew-haters for what they are? Does he not want to offend Jew haters? The hardcore Jew hate comments following this post of Spencer’s only prove this very obvious point. Why not just point out the obvious hypocrisy of the Jew haters and call them Jew haters? Or does Spencer not see this support for the Jihad against Israel whilst opposing it everywhere else for the anti-Semitic hypocrisy that it is? I know Spencer isn’t stupid so I rule that out. So what gives? Just don’t want to offend the anti-Islam but actually pro Islam Jew haters? Why not? Don’t want to lose the support of Jew hating allies that are not, because there are too many of them?
gravenimage says
Lawrence, with just a couple of exceptions, the Jew-haters who have shown up on this thread are either people I have never seen posting before, or else they are known as trolls.
Most of these people are *not* Anti-Jihadists.
Anna says
More people would support Israel if Israel wasn’t such an aggressive and arrogant state itself. It just can’t stop meddling in other countries affairs. And supporting Israel isn’t going to solve the problem with islamization anyway.
dumbledoresarmy says
Nonsense.
I do not see ‘aggressive and arrogant’ in the history of tiny Israel. I see – **brave and determined**, “fighting to survive in the teeth of nonstop genocidal jihad**.
BTW, I observe that ‘aggressive’ and ‘arrogant’, in your post, are precisely the terms with which the projecting and scapegoating Muslims continually attack Israel … and Jews. And as for ‘meddling in other people’s affairs’…. that’s a classic trope of all kinds of deranged Jewhaters throughout history… and one may note in particular that the Muslims, who really *are* fiendishly skilled at deceit, infiltration and subversion, threats and extortion, who ‘meddle’ and ARE meddling in other people’s affairs to a HUGE extent, are also much wont to accuse Jews of those things… it’s called scapegoating and projection.
gravenimage says
+1
gravenimage says
The repulsive “Anna” wrote:
More people would support Israel if Israel wasn’t such an aggressive and arrogant state itself.
……………………….
How *dare* Israel be so “aggressive” and “arrogant” as to have survived the Jihad against her for so many years?
More:
And supporting Israel isn’t going to solve the problem with islamization anyway.
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Let’s throw the victims of Islam under the bus–that’ll do it…
PJG says
Anna, yes. Israel virtually controls United States foreign policy.
The US largely does what Israel wants, including sending American men to die in wars which benefit Israel and Israel only. Too few people realise that the US lost its sovereignty ages ago. It even entered WW2 at the behest of Roosevelt and Churchill’s Jewish advisers. “Tiny” Israel wields enormous power. Commenters on this website tend to be hysterical in their uncritical support of Israel..
gravenimage says
No, standing up for democracy is *very much* in America’s interest.
And I see–Good Lord–that you are now stumping for the idea that the only reason that Britain and then the US stood up against the bloody horror of the Nazis was because of the Jooooooooos..
Really, that you have gone from being an Anti-Jihadist to an apologist for the barbarism of Fascism is deeply disturbing. Again, what happened to you?
Aaron says
I am sorry where do we stand up for democracy exactly? Certainly not in Russia. What we stand up for are neo-colonial client states, which Russia refused to become after the fall of the Soviet Union… The situation is more complicated then I think you could possibly understand given the quality of your arguments so far what they suggest about your level of education. The whole stand up for democracy idea was Woodrow Wilson’s and it was just as much BS then too. He wanted to usurp Britain’s global Empire. He failed spectacularly though and the U.S. didn’t end up gaining control of the world until Roosevelt got a second chance with WWII. Both world wars, btw, were really instigated by the British, and what was Germany’s original crime. Controlling their borders becoming the largest economy in Europe, and probably most centrally the fact that the Kaiser built a Navy to rival Britain’s own. A great book on the subject is Pat Buchanan’s Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War: How Britain Lost Her Empire.
What I care about is Christianity and Christain communities. The U.S. interests (mainly Saudi and Isreali) in the Middle East have decimated the historical Christian populations there, and all for a liberal agenda that is most definitely satanic. Islam is a threat, but not a particularly worse threat than Liberalism. The oppression I experience as a Christain in society is similar in both cases. And certainly, you can’t deny the historic link between the rebel spirit of “Judaism” after the rejection of Israel’s rightful king and the ascent of liberalism in European society that leads to among other things both the Protestation and now the Islamization of Europe…. But it is what it is, soon the Chinese will come to dominate the world and Christianity will conquerer the Chinese society from the inside just like it conquered Roman society under the empire, and after all the carnage, the whole world will be evangelized again. Because the fact is that those who build a city without God build it in vain, and liberalism, Islam and Zionism will all be crushed under the weight their own satanic ambitions and by the hands of one another. “Israel” will again be destroyed, in the end, because it is the nature of sin to produce such destruction, and what we might personally believe or want won’t change that reality is going to happen by its own nature.
gravenimage says
More from the appalling “Aaron”:
I am sorry where do we stand up for democracy exactly? Certainly not in Russia. What we stand up for are neo-colonial client states, which Russia refused to become after the fall of the Soviet Union…
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Russia is a semi-free state–it is better than it was under the Soviet Union, but it is far from free. The idea that democracy and freedom means you are a “neo-colonial client state” is absurd, as is the idea that Russia assassinating journalists, winking at a Shari’ah state in Chechnya, and enabling a nuclear Iran somehow represents some sort of principled resistance to the United States.
More:
The situation is more complicated then I think you could possibly understand given the quality of your arguments so far what they suggest about your level of education.
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Ah, yes–apologia for totalitarianism is always so very nuanced…sarc/off
More:
The whole stand up for democracy idea was Woodrow Wilson’s and it was just as much BS then too.
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No–the United States was a democracy long before this, and stood for democracy long before this. What rot.
More:
He wanted to usurp Britain’s global Empire. He failed spectacularly though and the U.S. didn’t end up gaining control of the world until Roosevelt got a second chance with WWII.
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I am not an unalloyed fan of Wilson’s, but no–he never tried to seize the British Empire. This is absurd.
And while the US is indeed influential today, the idea that we “control the world” is just ludicrous.
More:
Both world wars, btw, were really instigated by the British, and what was Germany’s original crime. Controlling their borders becoming the largest economy in Europe, and probably most centrally the fact that the Kaiser built a Navy to rival Britain’s own. A great book on the subject is Pat Buchanan’s Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War: How Britain Lost Her Empire.
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I see we have another apologist for Fascism here. And no–the Nazis rolling over most of Europe was not “controlling their borders”–unless one believes that Germany’s borders rightly included Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, and France–and would have included Britain if the Nazis had had their way.
More:
What I care about is Christianity and Christain (sic) communities. The U.S. interests (mainly Saudi and Isreali (sic)) in the Middle East have decimated the historical Christian populations there, and all for a liberal agenda that is most definitely satanic.
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Certainly, it is foolish of the US to consider the vicious Saudi Arabia to be an ally–even if it were not such a hideous Shari’ah state, their involvement in 9/11 should be enough for the US to cut her ties with this vicious totalitarian state.
But Saudi Arabia has been “Christianrein” for centuries, save for guest workers there.
Israel could not be more different–the Christian population there is safe and has freedom of worship.
It is only in the “Palestinian” territories and in Gaza that Christians are threatened–and this is not by Israel, but by the Muslim population.
It is the resurgence of Islam that has further threatened the already decimated Christian population in the Middle East, Levant, and Mahgreb.
More:
Islam is a threat, but not a particularly worse threat than Liberalism. The oppression I experience as a Christain in society is similar in both cases.
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Good God–what crap. One is free to worship in a liberal democracy–it is nothing like the persecution and violence Christians face in the Muslim world. Grotesque calumny.
Yet more:
And certainly, you can’t deny the historic link between the rebel spirit of “Judaism” after the rejection of Israel’s rightful king and the ascent of liberalism in European society that leads to among other things both the Protestation and now the Islamization of Europe….
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No, civilized democracy and freedom are not indicative of a “rebel spirit”. “Aaron” appears to think that Christianity mandates bloody Fascism, but this is simply grotesque.
And no–democracy does not inevitably lead to Islamization–there is nothing less free or democratic than Islam. Democracy does not demand such suicidal behavior. The problem is that authorities unilaterally deciding to allow in millions of ravening Muslims is *anything* be democratic.
More:
But it is what it is, soon the Chinese will come to dominate the world and Christianity will conquerer (sic) the Chinese society from the inside just like it conquered Roman society under the empire, and after all the carnage, the whole world will be evangelized again.
……………………………..
So “Aaron” looks forward to our being conquered by Communism? Why does this not surprise me…
Because the fact is that those who build a city without God build it in vain, and liberalism, Islam and Zionism will all be crushed under the weight their own satanic ambitions and by the hands of one another. “Israel” will again be destroyed, in the end, because it is the nature of sin to produce such destruction, and what we might personally believe or want won’t change that reality is going to happen by its own nature.
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Aaron says
You’re obviously not interested in or capable of having an honest argument. I am not an apologist for fascism as should be very clear because I am against capitalism in all its forms, e.g. the corporate capitalism of fascism, the state capitalism of communion and the private capitalism the U.S. that pits usuary against labor–for where is the extra value to be found in capitalism (again of any sort) in the exploitation of the laborer. Likewise, I am not a racist. As I Christain I specifically rebuke that our value is to be found in our national or ethnic identities. In Christ, there is neither slave nor freeman, Greek or Jew.
Still, the fact that you have a mental disorder is apparent here for the following reason. That you bother to respond to my posts at all, in such detail even, given the fact that simultaneously ignore my arguments. What would compel you to waste the time? In other words, what is the benefit for yourself in your own life of taking the time out of it just to argue against your own strawman arguments? Surely the drive must be pathological. In any case, my comments stand for any interested reasonable third party–and in fact, my posting your own claptrap you’ve helped me made my point all the more clear in comparison, for which I am sincerely thankful that you have taken the time out of your own life to accomplish this. I wish you well.
P.S. on the other hand maybe you sincere really don’t realize the poor quality of your own arguments. The innumerable fallacious. I’ve taught argument as part of Intro of Phil. on many occasions and text I would recommend strongly is Douglas Walton’s Informal Logic: A Pragmatic Approach. I am motivated because I really genuinely feel that there is little more tragic or wasteful than in not developing our powers of reasoning and ability to engage in cogent thought. Again best of luck to you.
gravenimage says
My comments posted before I could finish my reply to the appalling
“Aaron”. The end of my post should have read:
Because the fact is that those who build a city without God build it in vain, and liberalism, Islam and Zionism will all be crushed under the weight their own satanic ambitions and by the hands of one another. “Israel” will again be destroyed, in the end, because it is the nature of sin to produce such destruction, and what we might personally believe or want won’t change that reality is going to happen by its own nature.
……………………………..
Conflating the free West and Israel with the bloody horrors of Islam is utterly grotesque. This says nothing about the nature of freedom vs tyranny, and everything about the appalling morals of “Aaron”.
What does he want to replace freedom and democracy with? From what he has posted here, it appears to be Fascism.
There is *nothing* Christian about Fascism. Hitler despised Christianity and admired Islam.
gravenimage says
More from “Aaron”:
You’re obviously not interested in or capable of having an honest argument. I am not an apologist for fascism as should be very clear because I am against capitalism in all its forms, e.g. the corporate capitalism of fascism, the state capitalism of communion and the private capitalism the U.S. that pits usuary against labor–for where is the extra value to be found in capitalism (again of any sort) in the exploitation of the laborer.
…………………………….
Well, it does not surprise that “Aaron” hates free trade as much as he hates freedom and democracy. And no–there is no real free trade under Fascism, because there are no safeguards for property. The Fascist state can seize a person’s goods (and life) at any time.
And capitalism has created the wealthiest societies in human history. There is widespread opportunity, and age-old human horrors like hunger are close to a thing of the past. No wonder “Aaron” hates capitalism.
It has also created the most charitable societies in human history.
What is “Aaron’s” vision of the ideal society? He has not said explicitly, but it appears to the the horrors of Communism. He also appears to have missed that every Communist state has oppressed and persecuted Christians.
More:
Likewise, I am not a racist. As I Christain (sic) I specifically rebuke that our value is to be found in our national or ethnic identities. In Christ, there is neither slave nor freeman, Greek or Jew.
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“Aaron” does not say how he reconciles this with this with believing that the genocide of the Holocaust represented “justice”.
More:
Still, the fact that you have a mental disorder is apparent here for the following reason. That you bother to respond to my posts at all, in such detail even, given the fact that simultaneously ignore my arguments.
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No, standing against the horrors of Islam and Fascism is *not* indicative of having a mental disorder. Disturbing that “Aaron” thinks so.
Note that “Aaron” is unable to say in what manner I have supposedly ignored his vicious arguments, save for asserting that he cannot be a Fascist because he hates free trade (which is, of course, an oxymoron, not a cogent argument, since there is no free trade under Fascism). No surprise there.
More:
What would compel you to waste the time? In other words, what is the benefit for yourself in your own life of taking the time out of it just to argue against your own strawman arguments? Surely the drive must be pathological.
…………………………….
No–taking a stand against this sort of evil, especially at a site dedicated to just that like Jihad Watch–is anything but pathological. Allowing apologists for savagery to take over the threads harms the cause of Counter Jihad.
And note that–once again–“Aaron” is unable to cite anything that I supposedly got wrong. This should not surprise.
Yet more:
In any case, my comments stand for any interested reasonable third party–and in fact, my posting your own claptrap you’ve helped me made my point all the more clear in comparison, for which I am sincerely thankful that you have taken the time out of your own life to accomplish this. I wish you well.
…………………………….
I very much doubt that anyone not already disposed to hate freedom and democracy and to laud the Holocaust will come away from this thread inclined to do so because of “Aaron’s” vicious rantings here.
More:
P.S. on the other hand maybe you sincere really don’t realize the poor quality of your own arguments. The innumerable fallacious. I’ve taught argument as part of Intro of Phil. on many occasions and text I would recommend strongly is Douglas Walton’s Informal Logic: A Pragmatic Approach. I am motivated because I really genuinely feel that there is little more tragic or wasteful than in not developing our powers of reasoning and ability to engage in cogent thought. Again best of luck to you.
…………………………….
Well, the idea that the vicious “Aaron” is teaching our children to hate freedom and democracy and applaud genocide is just deeply disturbing. Luckily, this claim is not terribly convincing.
That “Aaron” is *still* unable to point out any of my supposed fallacies and errors in logic is quite telling. I suppose he hopes that no one here will notice this.
Debi Brand says
“Recently I’ve gotten quite a few emails from people who claim to be puzzled that I oppose jihad terror and Sharia oppression and yet support Israel. ”
Unbelievable…
duh swami says
I stand with Israel…anyone want to get in my face about it?…Talk is cheap Jew haters…’do’ something…
gravenimage says
+1
Vann Boseman says
I strongly support the US’s support of Israel. I base my support on nearly all the reasons given by Spencer and others on this forum. That said, Israel is a nation that has its own interests and pursues those interests regardless of the goals of the US government or the interests of the US people. Like the founding of many nations, there were atrocities committed by both sides in the founding of Israel. But when you consider the actions of the other countries in the Middle East towards the Palestinians, the inclusion of Muslims as citizens of Israel, the nature of the influx of Jews and Muslims into the Palestinian area before the founding of Israel, the actions of nations of the Middle East towards Israel and its own citizens, and the history of actions of the Palestinians in other nations of the Middle East, it is hard to not view Israel as an oasis of civilization in a sea of barbarity. But I don’t believe it is right to view Israel with rose colored glasses even if the US could learn a lot from Israel in perceiving its own interests and acting on it. Our Constitution was never meant to be used as a suicide pact.
The European says
Islamic hatred of Jews is dormant as long as Jews pay the jizya and accept dhimmitude, but it erupts like a volcano when Jews stop paying the jizya and do no longer play the dhimmi, and if aJew even has authority over a Muslim, the Muslim flies into a rage barely controllable. The hatred is always there because it is deeply rooted in the Qur’qn, the hadiths and the sunna, and it won’t disappear as long as Islam doesn’t come up with a non anti- Jewish reading of its scriptural texts. Islamic culture has always been rife with antisemitism, but there are times when this hatred is very destructive, and there are times when its destructiveness is less felt.
dumbledoresarmy says
Exactly.
Andrew Bostom’s encyclopaedic “The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism” and Martin Gilbert’s “In Ishmael’s House” make it damningly clear.
Mark Durie’s book on dhimmitude “Islam, Dhimmitude and Freedom”, combined with Bat Yeor’s monumental tomes, “The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam” and “Islam and Dhimmitude” provide additional detail.
Muslims hate – because they are *taught* to hate – ALL non-Muslims qua non-Muslims; but it is possible to argue that Jews are viewed as ‘uber-Kuffar’, *the* ‘most-non-Islamic’ of all, and are singled out for extra-special hate. That Israel was *reborn*, that Jews forced the Ummah to disgorge a tiny part of its ill-gotten gains, and have reasserted their sovereignty and *taken up arms to resist the Jihad*, is even more infuriating for the Muslims. And I hope the mohammedans *choke* on their fury, and that Israel’s self-defence continues to be effective and, indeed, becomes even *more* effective.
gravenimage says
Yes–Muslims *hate* seeing any Infidels living in freedom, Jews most of all.
WPM says
Islam is the original blue print for Nazi ideology they just use religious supremacy instead of genetics to skate goat the Jews. Islam blames all things wrong in the world on the Jews. A very small country Israel like an Island surrounded by a sea of Islamic hate it has a right to defend itself ,it has the right to decide which city is its capital ,it has a right to jail and punish people who terrorist its citizens. It has the right to police its borders to keep rioting violent terrorist from murdering families in there own home in Israel in their sleep. Its mere separate independent exitance throws the Islamic states around it into foaming at the mouth madness .Without hate, violence ,ignorance ,fear, Islam would have died a long time ago ,the appeasing left wing idiots safe in there own homes in America for the time being are the most ignorant bunch in the the Western world for thinking that the Islamics will not pull the same crap here when they think they can get away with it..
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Wpm, you have to own it because all Nazis have been mithraist christians who carried out the genocide killings pursuant to mithraist satanic Bible in Samuel 15:3 in the same way mithraist Churchmen did during crusade Wars and in Spain exterminating Muslims ànd Jews and the rest fled to ottoman Turkey for protection. No single muslim participated in the Holocaust, all were mithraist christians. To say it was mufti of Jerusalem who gave such idea to Hitler is nonsense. Fools!!
Rarely says
You couldn’t be more wrong or misinformed. So what else is new?
Andy says
FU KHANT, Ibrahim itace muhammed YOU ARE THE FOOL!!!
WPM says
Yes the grand Mufi of Jerusalem was Hitler guest for over 7 years ,Hitler was not kind to guest who did not believe in the Nazi cause. Plenty of Moslem join the SS in the Bulkans The Moslems were hunting and killing Jews a thousand years before Hitler was born.
Aaron says
Christianity specifically rejects any all forms of racism. The Nazis weren’t Christain in the least–if you joined the Nazis then you abandoned your Christian faith. Rather they Nazis were just like the Jews: logos denying racists. It is Rabbinical Judaism that made the claim after Christ that being a member of God’s chosen people depending on race and not on faith. Today you can be a jew and be an atheist. It doesn’t really matter what you believe–just as long as you don’t believe that Yeshua is the Mashiach….. There is an adage that says be careful who you choose to be your enemies because you will come to resemble them in the process. The Germans choose the Jews as enemies and out of this Nazism was born. Nazism is the Zionism of Germany, i.e. because it denies the Logos (Christ) and is predicated upon a racial nationalism.
gravenimage says
This is the second time just on this thread that “Aaron” has said that the victims of the Nazis as just like the Nazis. *Ugh*.
Aaron says
*Ugh* is not a cogent argument against the reasons I gave in support my statement–actually, it is more like a concession to my argument.
PJG says
Aaron: the term “Nazi” was made up by German Jews, who had tried to foment revolution in Bavaria but it was put down by the Freikorps. The word came from “Ignatz”, a name given to peasant boys in Bavaria and other places and as such it was a pejorative term. The National Socialists did not call themselves “Nazis” but the name stuck due, probably, to Jewish control of the Western world’s media.
When you say the Germans “chose” the Jews as enemies…how absurd. Read the Communist Manifesto and see the hatred for Germany felt by (Jewish) Communists already in 1848. Consider also that within Germany, at the time Hitler came to power, existed a lot of hostility for German culture and resentment against its economic success, and that hostility was shared internationally; international Jewry declared an economic war against Germany in 1933 (I think it was that year) and the ensuing boycott of German goods caused a great deal of trouble for Germany. Yet school children are taught today that Hitler hated Jews just because of their brown skin and eyes!
gravenimage says
No, my being disgusted that someone considers the civilized victims of the Nazis to be morally the same as the genocidal murderers is not agreeing with this appalling calumny. What claptrap.
gravenimage says
PJG wrote:
Aaron: the term “Nazi” was made up by German Jews, who had tried to foment revolution in Bavaria but it was put down by the Freikorps. The word came from “Ignatz”, a name given to peasant boys in Bavaria and other places and as such it was a pejorative term. The National Socialists did not call themselves “Nazis” but the name stuck due, probably, to Jewish control of the Western world’s media.
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Good Lord, what tripe. “Nazi” refers to “National Socialism” (Nationalsozialismus in German)–the true name of Hitler’s party. It was not a Jewish term for Bavarians.
More:
When you say the Germans “chose” the Jews as enemies…how absurd. Read the Communist Manifesto and see the hatred for Germany felt by (Jewish) Communists already in 1848. Consider also that within Germany, at the time Hitler came to power, existed a lot of hostility for German culture and resentment against its economic success, and that hostility was shared internationally; international Jewry declared an economic war against Germany in 1933 (I think it was that year) and the ensuing boycott of German goods caused a great deal of trouble for Germany.
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Most Communists were Gentiles, not Jews–and Most Jews were not Communists.
More:
Yet school children are taught today that Hitler hated Jews just because of their brown skin and eyes!
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Racism was a component of Hitler’s hatred of the Jews–they were certainly not Aryan–but Hiter was antisemitic in general. This obviously extended to Jews who were blond and blue-eyed.
I see that PJG has descended into the usual–saying that the Holocaust never happened, but boy did the filthy Jooooooooos deserve it…
gravenimage says
No, Nazism is not Christian. Hitler despised Christianity as “weak and flabby”, but admired Islam.
dumbledoresarmy says
Something that is also worth thinking about is this: ‘Mandatory Palestine’ was not the only state partitioned in 1947. There is another, another country that was also, for a very long time, under the oppressive and ruinous rule of the Dar al Islam, before then spending some time under British rule.
To wit: India.
The *parallels* between those two cases are very, very striking.
In both cases a huge chunk of the territories in question was *carved off* to be the exclusive possession of Muslims.
In the case of Mandatory ‘Palestine’ it was the territory now known as ‘Jordan’… AND it was, until 1967 (when it was liberated by its rightful owners), Jerusalem and the ancient heartland of eretz Israel, the Mountains of Israel, Judea and Samaria, now called ‘the West Bank’ in a manufactured toponym not found in any ancient text. The so-called ‘palestinian’ Arab muslims *demand* the heartland; they demand all of Old Jerusalem, they demand Judea and Samaria, the military high ground but also the *core* of historic Israel.
In the case of India: the ‘plums’ of 1/ the Ganges-Brahmaputra confluence, riotously fertile and well-watered and 2/ the Indus Valley (home of ancient civilisations) were chopped off and seized by the Muslims to become ‘Pakistan’, land of the ‘pak’ or ‘pure’ (sic) (they then separated into Pakistan and Bangladesh, after a ferociously-mass-murderous civil war; the Ummah eats itself); and the Muslims *also* demand to have Kashmir, the jewel in the crown.
Just as the Muslims that stayed within Israel have increased and multiplied and function as a potentially deadly Fifth Column, *so* the Muslims that remained within India, at Partition, have expanded and multiplied and flourished and form a deadly-dangerous and aggressive Fifth Column.
And one may note that even as Muslims demand – and get – rights and favours when living as minority in Israel and in India, the non-Muslims within the ‘Arab’ Islamic lands surrounding Israel, and the non-Muslims within Pakistan and Bangladesh, have been and are being very badly treated and, as a percentage of the population, have steadily and relentlessly dwindled.
There are Muslims and Christians inside Israel and they are treated with decency; there are NO JEWS AT ALL in Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt, and the lot of the Christians is precarious in *all* those places… Iraq and Syria bid fair to become Christenrein pretty damn soon, while the Christians of Egypt, though comparatively numerous, are treated like sh*t by the Muslims around them (had Morsi remained in power, we might well have seen a full-on genocide of the Copts; as it is, they are under huge pressure, Al-Sisi spouts flowery nothings but on the ground the forced conversions, the kidnappings and rapes of Christian girls – exactly the same as the Muslim kidnappings and rapes of Hindu and Christian girls in Pakistan – continue, along with riots and mini-pogroms).
Speaking as a Christian, I think the reality is that the Christians within Israel are far, far better off, safer, and freer, than in *any* Islamic country anywhere. As far as I can see, they are no worse off in Israel than they are in any other free-world country. Therefore the claiming-to-be-Christian Jewhaters who are cursing the Jews and desiring the Jihadist annihilation of Israel, are simply stupid. Do they think that the Christians now within Israel, would be *better off* if Israel were annihilated, all its Jews murdered or driven out into diaspora as stateless refugees, and .. the Christians were forced back into dhimmitude under triumphant Muslim overlords? To live as the Copts do in Egypt? Or as Christians and HIndus live in Islamic Pakistan? Degraded, exploited, humiliated, and in continual physical peril? Do our Jewhaters hate Israel, and Jews, so much, that they would rather that fellow Christians lived as grovelling slaves to Muslims, in an ‘Arab Islamic State of ‘Paletine'[sic]’, than as they do now… as free human beings, treated decently and fairly, within a majority-Jewish state?
Aaron says
Christians in Israel feel a lot of oppression, especially if they’re Arab. Those most directly related to Jesus historically are treated by the Isreali government almost as harshly as Arab Muslims are treated by them.
gravenimage says
What crap–Christians are being persecuted *by Muslims*.
In fact, Israel is the *only* place in the Middle East where Christians can live and worship freely.
Aaron says
And in the Jewish state–especially if they are Arab Christians. Just like there are various degrees of oppression under Sharia law in different Muslim states, so it is the same with Israel. They tolerate Christians in the same way that Iran presently tolerates Iranian Jews. Christians are treated far less well in Israel than they are in Syria, and only an incredible prejudice, predicated upon a gross ignorance of the Middle East, could cause you to believe differently.
PJG says
Aaron is correct about Christians in Israel.
“Holy Land” Christians are fed a lot of propaganda in Israel, but Israeli Christians are marginalised…and apparently being spat at by Jews is something many have to tolerate (and by the way, a Jewish fellow admitted that to me.)
Christians in Syria are protected very well and are fond of Assad, by all accounts.
We don’t hear of Christian fondness for Netanyahu in israel.
gravenimage says
Christians are being driven out and murdered in the “Palestinian” territories, and have been almost eradicated in Gaza. This is not happening in Israel.
gravenimage says
PJG wrote:
Aaron is correct about Christians in Israel.
“Holy Land” Christians are fed a lot of propaganda in Israel, but Israeli Christians are marginalised…and apparently being spat at by Jews is something many have to tolerate (and by the way, a Jewish fellow admitted that to me.)
………………………
Yes, I have heard of this–and condemn it. But this is not Israeli policy, any more than antisemites spitting on Jewish people in the West is the policy of the West.
The idea that there is no difference between genocide of Christians in places like Egypt and Iraq and freedom in Israel is calumny.
More:
Christians in Syria are protected very well and are fond of Assad, by all accounts.
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Assad is certainly better than the alternative–a takeover by some group like ISIS that would enslave and slaughter Christians. I would make the same choice if I were there–this doesn’t mean that Assad is not also a Muslim thug, but that the alternative is much worse.
More:
We don’t hear of Christian fondness for Netanyahu in israel (sic).
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The idea that Christians would prefer being slaughtered in Dar-al-Islam is a bizarre implication.
Pete says
Mr. Spencer
I hope I can get your book on kindle
Thanks
gravenimage says
His books usually come out on Kindle shortly after the hardback version.
Bernice Korman says
Hatred is really an amazing thing to watch! It proves to me that there are more Jew-haters than simply Muslims. So this Jew says Allahu Akbarf to all of you! Long live Israel, and you’d better believe that her fall means the fall of all of you.
B.
dumbledoresarmy says
Bernice – I’m not Jewish and I agree.
Mr Spencer’s longterm friend and colleague, Hugh Fitzgerald, an *atheist* who for reasons of common decency and commonsense is a staunch friend of Zion, has called antisemitism/ Jewhatred a “pathological condition”. A sickness; a spiritual and/ or mental sickness. He’s right.
Comments here at jihadwatch, as a general rule, are much less ‘infested’ than comments threads at other sites. (You will have observed, here, that the regulars are *challenging* the hateful commenters, calling them out on their nasty BS).
By contrast, sometimes when I’ve visited a comments thread at some mainstream news site, when the subject of Israel comes up, the number of Jewhating comments is so large – and the content so ghastly, so pathologically bizarre, so off-the-planet nonfactual – that it’s like wading through a polluted swamp; one goes away feeling like one needs to shower, to wash off the slime.
carpediadem says
Unfortunately that same attitude and sens of filth is being illustrated by the Jewhater Aaron here.
Aaron says
Bernice Korman, no one I’ve read has been saying anything hateful about Jews. That is a false charge. I don’t hate Muslims and I don’t hate “jews”, but I do oppose the evil ideologies of both. Because I stand for the truth I know through the person of Yeshua Mashiach. No one who is evil believes themselves to be evil, not the Nazis, not the Muslims, not the secular liberals and not the Jews. Perhaps you see hate because hate exists in your own heart?
gravenimage says
Yeah–how could *anyone* consider calls for genocide to be hateful? Anyone who does so must be a hater…
Aaron says
Gravenimage, you’re as hysterical as Whoopie Goldberg was the other day. No, I mean it. You really suffer from hysteria. No one is advocating for genocide here, are you ridiculous? Or are you just subscribing to liberal tactics by calling anyone who disagrees with you a bigot and a racist and just a hateful person with no right to their opinion? It is not a call for genocide of anyone any more than anti-Jihadism is a call for the genocide of Muslim or Arabs. Isreal as a racist national state is simply something that no Christain could support. It is not any more hateful to be anti-jihadi or anti-zionist than it is to be anti-nazi. I really don’t care if two factions of in the satanist camp are destroying themselves–well that is not completely true. I care enough to find horribly and soul-crushingly tragic, but I also recognize that it constitutes the wages of sin. There are natural consequences in our moralistic universe, and people have a God-given free will to experience those consequences if they desire. You can’t save Satanists from themselves, but you can honestly proclaim the Gospel to the world at large. To support the modern state of “Isreal” represents not only a moral confusion, but it is also a betrayal of the Gospel. There is nothing hateful in this, and it is not a call for the genocide of any group.
PJG says
I don’t see Aaron as a “Jew-hater” or “anti-Semite”. Calm down, you hysterical Israel supporters.
gravenimage says
The destruction of Israel would indeed lead to genocide of the Jews, save those few safe (or fairly safe) in America and the rest of the West.
Aaron says
PJG,
To him, everyone who engages in critical free thought or objective inquiry is a “Jew Hater”. It really goes to the larger point. It doesn’t matter if it is Communism, Nazism, Zionism, any other form of Liberalism or Jihadism any dissent against the “orthodoxy” of the given ideology is virtual hate speech. My larger argument is that what all those “isms” share in common is the denial of the Logos, which is to say the rejection of Jesus Christ. His replies to me are actually, in point of fact, a concession to this larger argument.
gravenimage says
Calling the Holocaust “justice” is indeed calling for genocide. Pretending that recognizing this is “hysterical” is ludicrous.
gravenimage says
I stand with you, Bernice!
James K. says
The Assyrians couldn’t do it. The Egyptians couldn’t do it. The Babylonians couldn’t do it. The Hellenists couldn’t do it. The Romans couldn’t do it. The Spaniards in 1492 couldn’t do it. Hitler couldn’t do it.
Do the math: a bunch of Camel riding, third world Muslims following a PERVERT named Muhammad can’t even figure themselves out (suni? Shiite? Which one is correct?!!!), let alone goe after Israel and the LORD’S OWN JEWISH PEOPLE.
Do the math: it is NOT going to work, so just go back to doing whatever you do, which is NOTHING OF ANY REAL VALUE, Muslims. You are BORING.
Bowen G says
READ: The Religious Sources of Islamic Terrorism
by Shmuel Bar
While terrorism — even in the form of suicide attacks — is not an Islamic phenomenon by definition, it cannot be ignored that the lion’s share of terrorist acts and the most devastating of them in recent years have been perpetrated in the name of Islam. This fact has sparked a fundamental debate both in the West and within the Muslim world regarding the link between these acts and the teachings of Islam. Most Western analysts are hesitant to identify such acts with the bona fide teachings of one of the world’s great religions and prefer to view them as a perversion of a religion that is essentially peace-loving and tolerant. Western leaders such as George W. Bush and Tony Blair have reiterated time and again that the war against terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. It is a war against evil…
https://www.hoover.org/research/religious-sources-islamic-terrorism
Lydia Church says
Alright, stand back folks… the voice of reason to the rescue!
I too am aghast at the antisemitism coming out of the closet here.
I will try to explain my perspective on this and related issues as a Christian.
Some of it even an atheist would agree with.
1. Once a nation is born, people generally recognize its right to existence and self defense.
2. No nation is a saint. There is always some quibbling among nations at least.
That establishes the right of Israel to exist on purely secular grounds. For those accusing Israel of acts that are not honorable, why stop there? There are so many other countries to be picked on, you will never have time to nit pick Israel. And, what about all the good that is coming from Israel, as some have mentioned in earlier comments? I remember after that earthquake in Mexico city, that Israel sent engineers to help rescue the victims trapped in the rubble. There are other charity and humanitarian things done by Israel. Of course Israel is not perfect. The gay parades are one example of many other things like that. Look at it like people on a school yard. Not perfect. Sometimes good, sometimes not so good, other times bad. Some arguing, some push and shove, some cooperation. Some are true bullies and some are true friends. There are plenty of bullies, but Israel is not one of them. So from a secular point of view, that should make sense.
3. There is a distinction between: 1) a Jew by race, 2) a Jew by religion, and 3) the state of Israel.
You can be in all 3, just 2, or just 1 of these groups. But none of these groups deserve to die.
4. From a Christian and Biblical perspective, the religion of Judaism is no longer valid. (That does not mean anything other than what it says.) True Judaism has been fulfilled in Christianity through Christ. Judaism is the ‘root,’ Christ is the Branch, and Christianity is the ‘fruit’ and ‘blossom.’ All must come to Jesus Christ to be saved and thus it is only the true Christian that gets to heaven. Jesus said all these things, so you can’t claim to be a Christian and think non Christians will be saved. John 14; 6.
(This does not imply that Israel should not be in the land, or anything else.)
5. Replacement Theology. There are various categories of this. One is that the Church replaces Israel so that it no longer has any identity or place in God’s plan. The other one (where I stand) holds that when it comes to being “the people of God,” the church has replaced Israel… in the sense that verses that speak to that sort of thing (such as Deut. 14; 2) apply to the church now and not the unsaved Jewish people. The church, the Christian Bible hold the keys to salvation, the Gospel message, and are the new ‘vinedressers’ that the owner gave the vineyard to, according to Jesus Himself. But there still is a plan of God for Israel stated in the Bible, and that will be addressed in a later point. Of course anyone, Jew or Gentile, can enter the church upon conversion. But the Jews needed saving just as much as the Gentiles, which is why the apostles in Acts, as it states also in the epistles, went “to the Jew first, and also the Gentile (Greek)” to share the saving Gospel message through Jesus the Messiah. It says that the church is the “Israel of God,” and he is a Jew who is one inwardly (a Christian) in the Bible. Also, when Abraham was at first called by God, was he a Jew, or a Gentile? A Gentile. It was his faith and response to God that turned him into a Jew. This did not happen with all descendants of Shem.
6. There are many branches of heresy that twist around the purpose and place of Israel and many ‘Christians’ are being deceived on this matter. Either they put Israel on a pedestal for worship (idolatry), or they bash her, all of which is sin. I can’t possibly list all these heretical movements now but I have seen this for many years.
7. Many heresies develop around taking a bible verse out of context and running with it far afield. The Bible must be interpreted in context of the whole text. For example, it says that God will make a New Covenant, and we follow that now as Jesus brought it. Christ is the fulfillment of all Old Testament things, and we are His temple now, so we don’t ‘go’ to a temple as they did before, and so on.
8. Just because Israel is not a saved people does not mean they should not be in the land. The end times Bible prophesies have much to say about things that will still occur with Israel and it is in God’s plan. God had a purpose for us before we were saved and we did not know about that purpose, once we were saved we began to see it unfold and walk in it. Don’t think He can’t do this for someone else too, or a whole nation.
9. Abraham had other children after Isaac and Ishmael, and has many descendants. But the promise of the land was to the descendants through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jacob had 12 sons, who became the heads of the twelve tribes of Israel (Reuben, Judah, etc.). Those are the Jewish descendants by race.
10. Salvation was offered first to the Jews because that was God’s cradle and cultivated civilization of people. That brought forth Jesus, through the Davidic line. The Holy Spirit descended on the day of Pentecost, in Jerusalem, and that is where and when the church was born, in 33 A.D. The gospel, Christianity, church and Bible spread out all over the world from there, called the ‘times of the gentiles.’ When the harvest is complete, and the ‘fullness of the gentiles has come in,’ and ‘the gospel was preached in all the world, then the end will come.’ Then it will come full circle and many in Israel will receive Jesus as Messiah and be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
Here is a hint:
“The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
Ezekiel 37; 1-12
After the Holocaust, the nation of Israel was born. The devil’s plan to exterminate them through history has never worked. When they come to Christ, they will be filled with the Holy Spirit, (like Pentecost), and truly live, and God will be their God, etc.
In a nutshell, I do support Israel being in the land. That doesn’t mean I approve of all they do now. But they are far better than their surrounding neighbors!
Aaron says
Lydia Church, the charge of any anti-Semitism is as false as the charge of Islamophobia. None of the comments I’ve seen is speaking in terms of race. The Church hopes that all people biologically descended from Abraham will once again join the people of God through the Church. It the only “jews” who are making the claim that race has anything to do with this. Maybe if you were more open to listening you’d understand what is being claimed. It is nothing inconsistent with the claim that Jesus, himself, made in the Gospel and was especially spelled out in the Gospel of John. After the Pentecost the Jews who rejected the Messiah because of the “jews”. After 70 A.D. the ancient religion of Isreal was ended, only to continue to exist in the Church. After 132 A.D. Isreal was laid waste by the Romans, and a new religion specifically in opposition to Christianity (just like Islam) was born called Rabbinical Judaism. This St. Johns testifies constituted a “synagogue of Satan” (his own words not mine). One of the Jews rejected the Messiah they rejected the faith of Abraham. After Pentecost, they were given over to a rebellious spirit. To say that this has something to do with the faith of Abraham is a sacrilege and blasphemy–there is no anti-Semitism here it is not about race, it is about either accepting the Logos or rejecting him. Those who reject the Logos do not have God as their father, and we can expect that Satan will work his intentions through such people. Again this has nothing to do with racism. It simply about opposing an evil ideology. Just like my opposition to Jihadism.
kouldb says
I support the Jews having a home nation, thus Israel’s right to exist & to defend herself. No problem. What I don’t support are the betrayals of the global Zionists. Their shoving mass third-world immigration down our throats. Impoverishing entire continents. Weakening the populations. Demoralising them by flooding them with violent, incompatible races. Whilst refusing to do the same in Israel. The power of the Zionist banks, the media & their NGO’s (disguised as fifth columns of miscegenation) are a giant machine brining about the genocide of westerners & Europeans. Under the guise of “diversity is our strength”. Whilst in Israel. They decry it as a threat to all Jews, their culture & to Israel. A threat to their very existence. Yet, they do everything they can to do it to Europe & the west. They’ve infiltrated every nation, every government body, the media, financial institutions & everything in between. Zionists have also made no secret of their contempt of the white man. They’ve made no secret of them wanting him extinct. For he’s their main challenge. They figure they’re smarter than the Arabs & Muslims. Once the white man is gone. Their dreams of ruling the world will come to fruition. That is what I have against them. Just because I no longer want the Jews meddling in the west & Europe. That does not mean I support Jihad or Sharia. What rot. The two are only synonymous to Zionists trying to justify their continued meddling & occupation of our nations. Which is why the Jews have been expelled from countless nations throughout history. It’s not always the rest of the world at fault when a particular race & religion is universally mistrusted & eventually resented so much that it’s expelled. As for all the good things Jews have done. They have in turn been richly rewarded. Meanwhile, who rewards the west & Europeans for all the good they’ve done? No one. They get blamed for every problem under the sun instead. Including by the Jews themselves. No. Take your contributions & good deeds. Then leave. Go to Israel. You have a home state. You need to return there now. For we’ve all had enough of Arabs from another continent causing endless problems in the Christian world. We don’t hate Jews. At least I don’t. But most have had a gut full of their victimhood. Along with that of the Muslims, Africans & Asians. Time for all of you to go home. For none of you are our friends. Neither the Jews, nor the Muslims are our friends. In fact, they two have more in common with one another than they’ll ever have with westerners & Europeans. We owe neither the Jews nor Israel anything. We’ve done our bit. They & the Muslims need to all return to their respective homelands & sort it out among themselves. You can be saved by God just as efficiently in your home state, as you can in ours. So there’s no reason for why you have to stay. We want no more wars for Israel. No more pandering to Israel. No more welcoming & tolerance of Islam. No more altruism towards Africa. And no more forced re-distribution of our land, natural resources & wealth to Asians. You all have your own nations. And that’s where you all belong. “After the Holocaust, the nation of Israel was born.” Indeed. That’s where you need to go.
gravenimage says
Here’s the foul kouldb again,pretending that the tiny minority of Jews in the world are responsible for Muslims flooding into the West. He has made such ludicrous claims before.
dumbledoresarmy says
Robert Spencer’s friend Hugh Fitzgerald calls Jew-hatred ‘a pathological condition’.
Multiple postings in this thread by a variety of posters have demonstrated that, in spades.
For any person readng this thread who wants a fresh view of the theological issues, and can read French, I recommend Jacques Ellul, ‘Un Chretien Pour Israel” and “Ce Dieu Injuste?”
I would add that I find it frankly mad when people claim that Jews today have no historic connection with the Jews of Jesus’ time.
Or when they start equating Jews with Nazis, or with Muslims.
Because I just don’t get that kind of pure-evil vibe off the Jews that *I* know. The more I get to know Jews the more I *like* them. And… the more I understand about Jews, yes, today’s Jews, the more I find I understand *Jesus*. Because He really *is* like them, and they are like him.
It is exactly the reverse when one gets to know Muslims and Islam… *that* *is* lilke descending through the circles of the Inferno.
Further: anyone trying to equate Judaism with Islam (or, just as insanely, with Nazism) has to face the fact that the *fruits* of the two systems are utterly different. They produce very different kinds of people.
Where is the Islamic equivalent of, for example, Chaim Potok? Marc Chagall? Or of the musicians and doctors and scientist?
Any person who wants to pretend that Judaism, and Jews, are exactly the same kind of thing as Islam, and Muslims, *has* to explain the radically different *fruit* of those two systems: why one has embraced monogamy, whereas one still practises polygyny; why one *affirms life*… … and one – Islam – adores Thanatos. Why one produces healers and the other produces… human bombs.
gravenimage says
Fine post, Dumbldore’s Army.
This story has certainly brought out a lot of unhinged Jew haters.
Aaron says
I like a lot of jews on a personal level too. In fact, culturally they are my favorite people as a group. I also like a lot of Muslims. I’ve known some very, very good Muslims. For this reason, I love Middle Eastern Christianity (both Arab and Jew)…. Robert Spencer professes to be in communion with such Church: the Melkites…. I’ve spent a lot of time in the Mideast. I’ve fought alongside Kurds, Turks, Iraqis, and Israelis. This doesn’t, however, address any of the theological arguments under discussion–and I noticed you didn’t bother to reply to any of those with any actual arguments of your own. You simply stated how it makes you feel when you hear such comparisons being made between Nazis, Zionism, and Jihadis. I claim the fruits of Rabbinical Judaism was Nazism and those fruits were pretty bad. Again, the argument is that Nazism was predicated upon the same Logos denying racist nationalism as Zionism. How is this not true? As a collective jews have been possessed by a rebellious spirit for 2,000 years. It caused their own destruction especially in 70 A.D. and again in 132 A.D. and most recently in 1943, and a lot of Catholics got swept up in the process. The worst part about the sin is always the fallout on the innocent. The real Holocaust, in my opinion, is everyone who died in WWII.
You can dismiss this as pathological all you want, but that’s not an actual argument.
Again, your argument is not really with me, but with Jesus, John the Baptist, and St. John the Gospel writer because it is in an appeal to them that I support my own assertions on this matter.
gravenimage says
I claim the fruits of Rabbinical Judaism was Nazism and those fruits were pretty bad…
…………………..
Is see that “Aaron” is again blaming the victims of the Holocaust for their own victimization. Just appalling.
This thread has brought out every foul apologist for the destruction of Israel and the Jews. Thank goodness it has also brought out a large number of staunch Anti-Jihadists, beginning with Robert Spencer himself.
dumbledoresarmy says
He’s waay off when he claims that Nazism was the ‘fruit’ of Judaism!!!
Because at the time what the most astute people saw was that Hitler was emulating *Islam*… that the thing that Nazism most closely resembled, was ISLAM. Churchill, for example, after reading Mein Kampf, called it “the new Koran of faith and war”.
And this is no coincidence, because Hitler admired Islam and was in fact assiduously reading and admiring a book – by a Muslim from British India – that to judge from what is said of it, was a recipe for ‘stealth jihad’. Hitler even *met* this Muslim. He met him, and read his book, *before* finishing the writing of Mein Kampf.
But when these sorts of awkward facts are pointed out, the Jew-haters will then turn round and blame Islam itself on the Joooooooz – except that one can then point out that Islam, in its texts, *equally* attacks – and in a hostile manner inverts/ parodies/ caricatures – both Judaism and Christianity. Islam is not a ‘child’ of Judaism any more than of Christianity. Rather it is an enemy that systematically and deliberately sets itself against both, as their antithesis and *opponent*, in order to promulgate a system or mindset that is not only ‘nonbibilcal’ but consciously and consistently *anti-biblical’. (That is: it is ‘derived’ from either of them only in the sense that one might say the Black Mass is derived from the Eucharist… as a hostile/ occultic *inversion*. Would one blame Christians for the Black Mass and complain that if only Christianity had never existed, there would be no Black Mass?).
The God of Islam has NOTHING in common with the Biblical God… and that is stated plainly by that representative of Rabbinical Judaism, Moshe ben Maimon/ Maimonides. He criticises ‘allah’ from the perspective of one steeped in classic Judaism; he puts his finger on the essential irrationality or nonrationality and caprice of Islam’s deity, which contrasts completely with the Biblical God who operates by the Word and who is steadfast and faithful.
I put the situation this way: Judaism and Christianity *are* kin, close kin (hence the heat of the quarrels between them); whereas Islam is a dangerous conman who comes to the house of the Jews – and of the Christians – falsely claiming to be a long-lost cousin; but that is only in order to get a foot inside the door.
One may also note that Muslim dawa-artists and propagandists will make their ‘pitch’ differently to Jews and to Christians; to Christians they will say “*we* love Isa and Mariam [they hope Christians won’t inquire too closely what is meant by this…!), not like those nasty Jooooz”; and *then* at the same time the Muslims will be telling the Jews, “*we* worship One God, just like you, and not like those nasty Christians over there..” (but the question to ask is, “Is that ‘one god’ of the Muslims in any way, character-wise, like the God of the TaNaKh? and the answer is a resounding NO; indeed the Jewish theologian and philosopher Franz Rosenzweig identified Islam as fundamentally a ‘pagan’ – that is, nonbiblical – system).
And I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there were Muslims posing as Jews on Christian sites on the internet and – under that false identity – attacking Christians and Christianity; *or* posing as ‘Christians’ on Jewish sites, and…again under a false identity – spouting classic ‘Christian’ antisemitic tropes… all in the interests of keeping conflict going and’splitting the camp’ of the Infidels…
Aaron says
If you can’t see that both Islam and Rabbinical Judaism turn on the same rejection of the Logos, then what can I say? To a large extent, it is just a psychological truth that we come to resemble our enemies–or maybe it is more apt to say those we hate (as Christain’s are commanded to love even their “enemies”). It is no accident then that Nazism, Jihadism, and Zionism all bear a relationship to one another.
gravenimage says
Fine post, DDA.
Keys says
Aaron, you say that culturally the jews are your favorite people, then you say that the jews themselves were responsible for 70 AD, nazism, the hollocast, etc., because as a collective group they have had a rebellious spirit for 2,000 years.
So, if you believe that, why would they be your favorite people “as a group”?
Aaron says
Keys, I love the culture of the Middle East especially the culture of the Jews. I’ve always got along with Jews. But I do reject their anti-Gospel theology. I don’t define the culture by its rejection of the Mashiach? I define only its religious identity that way. My favorite Catholics are always those who are Jewish. Why is this so hard to understand? It is the same argument used here in opposition to Jihad. To be against Islamic Jihad (which let’s be honest is to really be against Islam more generally) is not to be against Arabs or Africans. I love Arab (and African) Christians as well, particularly the Church Robert Spencer professes to belong to, the Melkites. My “anti-Semitism” just like my “Islamophobia” is theological, not racial. What I stand against are the oppressive and other destructive ideological beliefs, not individual persons. It has been the ideological beliefs, founded in a rebellion against the Logos of life, that has caused, broadly speaking, the “jews” as a whole such trouble both for themselves and the larger civilization as a whole.
Aaron says
Additionally, I will add this: The psalmist testifies that Jerusalem is a city that is at one with itself. In other words, Jerusalem is the city of at-one-ment. This is why the Temple was there. Is the city called Jerusalem in the state called Israel such a city? I know I keep using the word love, but it’s true I love being in the land of “Israel”. I love the people, and I love the culture. But there is no way I can take seriously that the divided land and city that exists their today as a political reality is in any way representative of the atonement given through faith to Abraham and his descendants. Rather, It represents a false image of that faith. So it is not surprising then that the city is divided against itself by persons who claim to be the biological descendants of Abraham (because God has a sense of humor, and because he actually makes things clear for those who are willing to look) but don’t share in his actual faith.
The point always was that it is faith and not biology that allows us to become the adopted Children of God (through Abraham). When you look to the world, to politics, to race, and to biology you end up with in the end with ideologies like Jihadism, Nazism and Zionism.
gravenimage says
More from “Aaron”:
Keys, I love the culture of the Middle East especially the culture of the Jews.
…………………………….
Of course, the culture of the Jews has little to do with that of Muslims beyond the most superficial aspects.
Does this mean that the appalling “Aaron” loves things like “Honor Killings” and stonings? This is certainly a core part of Muslim culture.
More:
I’ve always got along with Jews.
…………………………….
Well, yeah–except for that whole wanting to see Jihadists destroy Israel thing…
More:
It has been the ideological beliefs, founded in a rebellion against the Logos of life, that has caused, broadly speaking, the “jews” as a whole such trouble both for themselves and the larger civilization as a whole.
…………………………….
Yes–how *dare* the Jews be so “rebellious” as to live free of Muslim persecution? Bad, bad dhimmis…
gravenimage says
I see that “Aaron” is now blaming Israel for the Jihad against her. No surprise there.
gravenimage says
The appalling “Aaron” wrote:
If you can’t see that both Islam and Rabbinical Judaism turn on the same rejection of the Logos, then what can I say?
…………………………..
Dumbledore’s Army is a devout Christian–and this characterization of Judaism–the basis of Christianity–and the savagery of Islam is just absurd.
More:
To a large extent, it is just a psychological truth that we come to resemble our enemies–or maybe it is more apt to say those we hate (as Christain’s are commanded to love even their “enemies”).
…………………………..
What tosh. Britain and the United States did not come to resemble the Fascists, and standing against the bloody horror of Islam *does not* make us resemble Jihadists.
More:
It is no accident then that Nazism, Jihadism, and Zionism all bear a relationship to one another.
…………………………..
Except that civilized Israel is nothing like either brutal Nazi Germany or Dar-al-Islam.
Aaron says
Gravenimage, It would be hilarious to me if it wasn’t personally so tragic for yourself that you are this blind to your own person. “Standing against the bloody horror of Islam *does not* make us resemble Jihadists. Are you kidding here?!! You argue in exactly the same disrespectful, disingenuous, a completely irrational and unhinged emotional manner as a number of Jihadi apologists I’ve known. Your own testimony, against yourself, in your response posts to me, make the argument for my comments far, far more eloquently then I could manage to do myself. You’ve presented yourself as my best witness and the fact don’t even recognize how true this fact is to any objective, and objectively rational third parties who read our comments just further makes the case.
I struggle to say this in a way that doesn’t sound condescending, but I really do sincerely pray for the peace of Christ to enter your life and fruits of the Holy Spirit to become manifest. God Bless you.
gravenimage says
Yet more from “Aaron”:
Gravenimage, It would be hilarious to me if it wasn’t personally so tragic for yourself that you are this blind to your own person. “Standing against the bloody horror of Islam *does not* make us resemble Jihadists. Are you kidding here?!!
……………………………….
That “Aaron” considers standing against Jihad the same as being a Jihadist says it all. No, it is true–standing against evil is *not* the same as committing evil.
This is hardly surprising, coming from someone who considers the Holocaust to be “justice”.
More:
You argue in exactly the same disrespectful, disingenuous, a completely irrational and unhinged emotional manner as a number of Jihadi apologists I’ve known.
……………………………….
No–opposing the horrors of Jihad and Shari’ah is not irrational. Really, there is nothing so rational as recognizing a threat to our civilized values and choosing to counter it.
More:
Your own testimony, against yourself, in your response posts to me, make the argument for my comments far, far more eloquently then I could manage to do myself. You’ve presented yourself as my best witness and the fact don’t even recognize how true this fact is to any objective, and objectively rational third parties who read our comments just further makes the case.
……………………………….
The idea that my opposing savagery is “testimony against myself” shows how terribly skewed “Aaron’s” moral sense truly is.
More:
I struggle to say this in a way that doesn’t sound condescending, but I really do sincerely pray for the peace of Christ to enter your life and fruits of the Holy Spirit to become manifest. God Bless you.
……………………………….
The peace of Christ does not manifest in spouting apologia for oppression and genocide. How appalling to think that it does.