Among Moina Shaiq’s other claims is that the Shias and Sunnis always lived peacefully together until recently, when “politics” turned them against one another. It’s unclear if she wants to blame the Infidels for this. But as a matter of history, she is wrong. The Shias and Sunnis have been sworn enemies since the battle of Karbala in 680. They may live “together,” but not, as Moina Shaiq would have it, “peacefully.” Sunnis have persecuted Shi’a, and continue to do so, in many places.
In Iraq, after the Mongol conquest in 1248, the Shi’a were blamed by many Sunnis for the Arab defeat and killed as a consequence.
During the Ottoman period, hundreds of thousands of Shia were killed in Anatolia.
In India, and especially in Kashmir, Shia were subject to persecution and murder by Sunnis. Plunder, looting and killing by the Sunnis came to be known as ‘Taarajs” that virtually devastated the large community of Shi’a in Kashmir. History records 10 such Taarajs, also known as “Taraj-e-Shia,” between the 15th and 19th centuries, in 1548, 1585, 1635, 1686, 1719, 1741, 1762, 1801, 1830, and 1872. During Taarajs, Shia habitations were plundered, people killed, libraries burnt, and sacred sites of the Shi’a desecrated. The community, due to their difficulties, began the practice of Taqiyya in order to preserve their lives.
Pakistan’s Sunnis have in recent times renewed these anti-Shi’a attacks. A Sunni terrorist group, Sipah-e-Sahaba, targets Shi’a mosques and madrasas and murders Shi’a professionals, such as doctors and engineers, who might be potential leaders of the Shi’a community.
In Xinjiang, China, the Sunni Muslims in centuries past enslaved the Shi’a Muslims, who were both religiously and ethnically distinct. They even sold them in the slave markets in Khotan.
In Saudi Arabia, the Shi’a of the Eastern Province, in al-Hasa and Qatif, have faced long-term religious and economic discrimination. They have routinely been denounced as heretics, traitors, and non-Muslims. Shias have been accused of sabotage, most notably for bombing oil pipelines in 1988. Many Shia have been summarily executed. In response to the perceived threat of Iran, the Saudi government has collectively punished the Shia community by placing even more restrictions on their freedoms and marginalizing them economically. The ulema — clerics — have been given permission to sanction violence against the Shia. Fatwas passed by the country’s leading cleric, Abd al-Aziz ibn Baz, have denounced the Shias as apostates. Another fatwa, by Adel-Rahman al-Jibrin, a member of the Higher Council of Ulama, explicitly sanctioned the killing of Shias. This call for murdering Shi’a was reiterated in Salafi religious literature as late as 2002. The execution of a leading Shi’a cleric in 2016 was part of this campaign of repression. In Saudi Arabia, there has been systematic discrimination, without let-up, of the Shi’a in religion, education, justice, and employment. And the country’s anti-Shi’a effort has only intensified as a result of the threat from Shi’a Iran. The Saudis have spent billions spreading anti-Shi’a propaganda throughout the Muslim world.
In Afghanistan, the Taliban had just begun a campaign to wipe out the Shi’a Hazara when the Americans arrived and, by attacking the Taliban, rescued the Hazara. But if the Sunni Taliban make a comeback, as they now give signs of doing, one can be sure that they will renew their war, as uber-Sunnis, on the Shi’a Hazara.
In Pakistan a terrorist group, Sipah-e-Sahaba, exists to attack Shi’a mosques and madrasas, and to kill Shi’a professionals such as engineers and doctors.
Unsurprisingly, where the Shi’a are in the majority, as they are in Iran, it is the Sunnis who face discrimination and persecution. Some have been executed for — supposedly — spreading Sunni Islam; attacks on Sunni worship sites have been reported.
Pace Moina Shaiq, Sunnis and Shi’a have not been “living peacefully side by side” for centuries but, rather, they have been at war for more than 1300 years, since the battle of Karbala. The levels of violence have varied over time, and place, but never have the two sects lived in harmony, or as she claims, “peacefully.”
If you can manage to attend one or more of Moina Shaiq’s presentations, come prepared. Be ready to discuss with her the claim that “there is no compulsion in [the Islamic] religion.” Ask her what she makes of the status of dhimmi, and whether the desire to escape its onerous disabilities might explain why many non-Muslims over time converted to Islam. Ask her why she thinks the death penalty for Muslim apostates does not constitute “compulsion in religion.” Ask her if she believes Muslims see Christians and Jews as their brothers, and how that squares with the Qur’anic command “not to take Christians and Jews as friends.” Ask her how else one can explain the 1400-year history of Muslim violence against Unbelievers, if not by the clear commands to wage Jihad in more than a hundred verses in the Qur’an. Have ready, and read out, a dozen such verses, including 9:5, 9:29, 8:12, 8:60, 2:191. Her auditors should be surprised, and alarmed, at this revelation of violence and hate. Ask Moina Shaiq what effect she thinks the statement by Muhammad, the Perfect Man, that “I have been made victorious through terror,” has had on Muslims in the past, and right now, with members of Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, Hamas, and Hezbollah. Ask her if she thinks “domestic life” in Islam can really be described as non-violent, given that husbands can “beat” their wives if they are disobedient (4:34) and can punish their wives and daughters if they dishonor the family, and in the case of these so-called “honor killings,” in Muslim countries the killer can go unpunished or lightly punished.
These are some of the disturbing queries that can spoil a Meet-A-Muslim event, just by exposing the audience to Qur’anic verses, and Hadith passages, of which it was unaware, and forcing that audience to think. Make your own list of questions — above are a few possibilities that come immediately to mind — and practice asking them in the most ingratiating, youth-wants-to-know manner. And then go out to upset the applecart of predictable taqiyya. Think of it as a public service which, as a matter of fact, it most certainly is.
Rezali Mehil says
Salaam all,
Apart from all the rhetoric one big difference is that Sunni tradition is following the word handed by oral tradition. Someone tells a story .. it is heard (sunna) and passed on orally and hence collectively known as sunni.
By contrast the far clever Shia use the written word as well as the oral tradition. So Shia are normally well educated, articulate and clever people …fyi I am Shia hailing originally from the Paak Pakistan.
There are slight differences in the procedure we pray to the Sunni.. but our big commitment is to the very sad commemoration of Ashura, where we lament on not being available to help Hussain Ali (grandson of Muhammad) SWT at the battle of Karbala around 680 AD. Ofcourse this has caused some tension ever since.
Another big difference is that Shia are only about 20% of the muslim population and have always been on the back foot until recently (last 2 decades) when Iran was starting to make great strides in influence over the Sunni in the middle East … until a certain Mr Trump (who actually I liked a lot for his straight talk) decided to lie about Iran and cut funding and business and help MBS of the Saud family. I think this about Sunni being scared of being left behind as Shia engineering is so much more potent.
The only one thing in Obama’s tenure that made any sense was when he said that Shai and Sunni need to learn to share the great faith of Islam. Moina is right that in Iraq and Pakistan, many Shia and Sunni do live peacefully side by side and there is some intermarriage too (less now days).
I personally do not think that Moina is being untruthful …just that Hugh is being too pedantic.
Shia and Sunni need DO need to learn to live together , share our faith and our lands so that we have a united front when challenged by kuffar… who never seem to tire of being in the ME.
More Later …
Rezali
mgoldberg says
Moina is being historically, canonically, false. She is telling falsehoods about the wonderful peace of Islam.
You are whitewashing the story too by claiming Hugh Fitzgerald is being ‘pedantic’.
Indeed, the wholesale slaughter of others across the globe by muslims, in the name of Islam, in the name of Allah goes on, and we get non apologists who preen about the peaceful religion, unnable to evidence shame; any normal shame at the horrors that we can all list brought by the religon of submitting all others for 1400yrs. That the history she brings is falsified is one thing- to evidence the usual muslim inablity to evidence any sense of shame is quite another.
Rezali Mehil says
Salaam Sir,
There has been slaughter, conquest (Christians did it too), so if she is saying that is not true, than one cannot help her with that.
In” modern” times however the people who are attempting to make use of such instruments are the global brands of the left who want no national identity left …
We are muslims just trying to live our lives … try the suckerbergs, the soros, the GravenImage, DDA, Wellingtons et al of this world instead of venting on us solely.
More Later…
Rezali …
mortimer says
Ok, Rezali, I will completely forget that the MULLAHOCRACY of IRAN is a SHI’ITE GENOCIDAL FORTRESS THREATENING TO START WORLD WAR III !!!
Are you DELUSIONAL, Rezali ? As delusional as the Iranian MULLAHS ???
Remember, Rezali, that the MULLAHS helped train the BIN LADEN TEAM for 9-11.
OK !!! I forgot it ALL and I will now start thinking HAPPY thoughts. SHI’ITE TERRORISTS HAVE NOW VANISHED FROM THE HISTORIC RECORD.
(sarc/off)
revereridesagain says
“Shias and Sunnis… living together. Mass hysteria!”
Moina should be doing stand up comedy. Oh, wait…
mgoldberg says
I was hoping you were serious but then you threw in Gravenimage, Wellington, and of course, they’ve killed no one…. and again, no serious shame at the homicidism that IS not merely part of Islam but canonically, historically the very spearhead of Islam. It is so obvious and horrendous that you’ve been dulled into denial.
I don’t doubt there are muslims who just want to live their lives. But then again, for 1400 yrs, there have been the Jihadists, the spearhead of Islam, and they leave no one alone.
Wellington says
You are beneath contempt, Rezali.
And for the record, I would very much like to live my life listening to great music (which the Islamic world would never have created), drinking fine beer (which the Islamic world considers haram), never requiring a woman to wear a head covering of any kind let alone a black garbage bag, eating fine North Carolina BBQ spare ribs (which the Islamic world considers haram), and enjoying freedom in general whereby I can assert that the reputed founder of Islam was a rank and brutal psychopath as well as a narcissist and rapist, that the Koran is turgid in the extreme, often times stupid, and full of hate, and that the Islamic faith is the worst religion of all time without worrying about being harmed for believing, saying and doing any of these things, all of which Islam, in total control-freak mode, would deprive me of doing, indeed kill me, if only it could, so pathetic is its confidence in its assertions about the cosmos. And may Allah strike me dead tonight if I am wrong about all or any of this—which won’t happen because, Rezali, there is no Allah.
Put briefly, eff your Allah, ditto for Mo and the Koran. Stick it, Rezali, where the sun never shines. Oh, and by all means, have a nice evening.
gravenimage says
Thank you, mgoldberg.
Note that Rezali Mehil never says what charges Wellington, Dumbledore’s Army, and I–who have never harmed anyone–should be brought up on. Opposing the horrors of Jihad and Shari’ah, presumably.
BC says
REzali. I expect in Arabic there is the expression two wrongs do not make a right, if not, I am sure you know it. Yes Christianity has a terrible history but that was long ago and this is present day and ongoing,
when non Muslims are being slaughtered almost daily in places where Muslims have the superiority to do so. I am certain there is much more slaughter than we hear about. Are Christians using children as ‘suicide bombers’? Muslims are even murdering other Muslims even when at prayer or just after.
and parents and families even kill their children and siblings. But is not Islam supposed to be the ‘perfect’ answer and are not Muslims claiming to be the ‘perfect’ people. Things are not going to start to resemble the claims made for Islam’s perfection until the Muslim themselves start to do something about it.
Jayell says
“We are muslims just trying to live our lives … try the suckerbergs, the soros, the GravenImage, DDA, Wellingtons et al of this world instead of venting on us solely.”
Unfortunately you people don’t seem to have much respect for other people who are ‘trying to lives their lives’ even when they’re in THEIR OWN countries, which is the problem. And whilst the entire universe must be all too aware of how easily you are ‘offended’, you never seem to be quite so aware when you are offending others – either that, or you ARE aware but perhaps you don’t seem to think it matters. Which is part of the same problem and explains why all the people you mention above are apparently ‘venting solely on you’ – according to you. Actually, they are probably venting about a few other things as well, but you might not notice that because since they’re ‘kuffar’ you might not bother listening to them. And you are the ‘best of people’, of course!
J D S says
Muslims , from the beginning have been fed a line of lies that reaches to the depths of Hades and what they are doing today,and in the past as well, is dragging its adherents to the same place that line if lies has reached.
How can Islam stand with all the atrocious acts found in its teachings..that were mostly were from hearsay, words passed on from one to another..now how much was lost and added in that process?
If one looks closely one can see that all the atrocities in Islam ( which they think is approved and legal in their sight) are not peaceful and loving…Compare the teachings of God’s son, Jesus,to what has been attributed to MUhammad, whom no one has bee n able to prove that actually existed,
Further it is strange to dee that Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald know more about Islam than do Islamist themselves.As shown here.
b.a. freeman says
reza – may i call U reza? – i think U may be straining just a bit when U say that 20% of all muslims are shia. i’ll grant U the point, however, because in muslim-majority nations, if one claims to be muslim but is judged to *NOT* be muslim, one’s a** is grass. since most sunni think ill of most shia, it would not surprise me at all if they lie when asked if they are shia.
a bigger point than the shia/sunni question, however, is your statement that “[t]here has been slaughter [and] conquest (Christians did it too),” without context. i can show U multiple ayat in the quran and multiple ahadith in the sunnah in which islamic doctrine is clearly expressed, and that doctrine says, for instance, that a prophet should not take captives until he makes a great slaughter in the land. where did Jesus say that? where are *ANY* commands in the new testament issued by God or Jesus (same thing, in case U’re confused by muhammed’s misunderstanding of christianity) for christians to harm anybody?
yes, christians *indeed* made conquests and slaughtered folks (often other christians as well as muslims), but they were doing that *IN SPITE* of Jesus’s commands to the contrary. *christianity* does not teach murder, but *islam* does. and *THAT* is why so many of us have such revulsion for the pirate cult of islam.
Dipak says
Look. what Muslims did to India.They could not live with Hindus, so they created Pakistan and Bangladesh. Most of Indian Muslims did not move to Pakistan. Why ? Second biggest Muslim country is India now. Another Pakistan coming ? Afganistan, Indonesia were also Hindu countries.
gravenimage says
Rezali Mehil wrote:
Salaam all,
Apart from all the rhetoric one big difference is that Sunni tradition is following the word handed by oral tradition. Someone tells a story .. it is heard (sunna) and passed on orally and hence collectively known as sunni.
……………………………..
Of course, this is not really the case–what is considered Sunnah includes the Qur’an, Sira, and vicious Hadith. The idea that Sunnis do not make use of the savage texts of Islam is quite false.
More:
By contrast the far clever Shia use the written word as well as the oral tradition. So Shia are normally well educated, articulate and clever people …fyi I am Shia hailing originally from the Paak Pakistan.
……………………………..
Shia lands are as savage as Sunni ones. Iran and Iraq are hell holes, just like hell holes in the rest of Dar-al-Islam.
And note that Rezali Mehil does not mention here that her family fled Pakistan because of the threats of their Sunni neighbors.
More:
There are slight differences in the procedure we pray to the Sunni.. but our big commitment is to the very sad commemoration of Ashura, where we lament on not being available to help Hussain Ali (grandson of Muhammad) SWT at the battle of Karbala around 680 AD. Ofcourse this has caused some tension ever since.
……………………………..
This is where Shia Muslims beat themselves bloody, and cut the heads of their own children–including babes in arms. *Ugh*. Here are some pictures of these Muslims abusing their children. WARNING! Disturbing images:
https://barenakedislam.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/ashura1.jpg
More:
Another big difference is that Shia are only about 20% of the muslim population and have always been on the back foot until recently (last 2 decades) when Iran was starting to make great strides in influence over the Sunni in the middle East … until a certain Mr Trump (who actually I liked a lot for his straight talk) decided to lie about Iran and cut funding and business and help MBS of the Saud family. I think this about Sunni being scared of being left behind as Shia engineering is so much more potent.
……………………………..
Rezali Mehil is terribly upset that Obama is no longer in power, enabling Iran’s nuclear program.
More:
The only one thing in Obama’s tenure that made any sense was when he said that Shai and Sunni need to learn to share the great faith of Islam. Moina is right that in Iraq and Pakistan, many Shia and Sunni do live peacefully side by side and there is some intermarriage too (less now days).
……………………………..
They live peacefully when thy are not mass slaughtering each other. Here’s just one story:
“Ramadan in Iraq: Sunni jihad suicide bomber murders at least five people in cafe in Baghdad Shi’ite area”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/05/ramadan-in-iraq-sunni-jihad-suicide-bomber-murders-at-least-five-people-in-cafe-in-baghdad-shiite-area
There are scores more, just here at Jihad Watch.
More:
I personally do not think that Moina is being untruthful …just that Hugh is being too pedantic.
……………………………..
Pointing out someone’s blatant lies is “pedantic”? Of course, Rezali Mehil has always believed in lying to the filthy Infidels in order to spread Islam.
More:
Shia and Sunni need DO need to learn to live together , share our faith and our lands so that we have a united front when challenged by kuffar… who never seem to tire of being in the ME.
……………………………..
In other words, Sunni and Shi’ites may murder each other, but they should always unite in slaughtering Infidels.
More, in reply to mgoldberg:
Salaam Sir,
There has been slaughter, conquest (Christians did it too), so if she is saying that is not true, than one cannot help her with that.
In” modern” times however the people who are attempting to make use of such instruments are the global brands of the left who want no national identity left …
……………………………..
The idea that Muslims are slaughtering each because of the left is ridiculous–this has been going on for 1400 years now–the Sunni/Shia divide is just the most obvious case.
More:
We are muslims just trying to live our lives … try the suckerbergs, the soros, the GravenImage, DDA, Wellingtons et al of this world instead of venting on us solely.
……………………………..
Note that Rezali Mehil does not mention here–as she has many times previously–that her version of Muslims “just trying to live our lives” involves Muslims conquering and enslaving Infidels–including in Britain, which has given Rezali Mehil and her fellow Shia sanctuary.
It is also,of course, quite false that one may not say anything critical of dhimmitude on the left if on also condemns Muslim savagery.
Wellington says
Another fine point-by-point dissection, gravenimage (I really do appreciate your meticulous approach in destroying another person’s arguments; it’s so often a thing of beauty).
Once again, my compliments my West Coast friend from over here yonder on the East Coast.
gravenimage says
Thank you so much, Wellington. Please raise a Yuengling beer for me next time you enjoy one. 🙂
mortimer says
Rezali’s etymology is completely wrong. According to scholars such as Joseph Schacht and Ignác Goldziher the pre-Islamic definition of Sunnah was simply “precedent” or “way of life” … a habit or practice of Mohammed. It was first used with the meaning of “law” in a Syro-Roman law book, before it became widely used in Islamic jurisprudence.
Every tribe had its own ‘SUNNAH’ or ‘customary law’. Laws are normally written down and the Sunnah was written down. It is voluminous, but few get into that because it takes years of reading.
And do Shi’ites make good neighbor’s for Sunnite Muslims? Sometimes, maybe. There’s no Shi’ite mosque in Mecca or Medina. There’s no Sunnite mosque in Tehran.
How’s that for coexistence? And they bomb one another’s mosques weekly. The harmony between the two groups is not extraordinary.
Wellington says
So do appreciate your detail, mortimer, which you provide time and time again. Hope you and yours are well.
gravenimage says
Fine post, Mortimer.
mortimer says
Thanks, Welly and GI, WE SHOULD EDUCATE THE IGNORANT PATIENTLY AND NEVER TIRE… EVERY SINGLE TIME.
THERE IS MUCH WORK TO DO.
gravenimage says
So true, Mortimer. You certainly set a fine example.
FYI says
“We are muslims just trying to live our lives”
Bless!
Why can”t we all just get along ,eh?Because of allah,islam and KORAN 5 v 51 and KORAN 2:191.
That’s why.allah in koran 9:30 CURSES Jews for being Jews and Christians for following Jesus.
What sense does that make? NONE
No,muslims are too busy destroying the lives of others in their own countries and attacking ALL other world religions who would prefer to be left alone while the Godless,murderous savagery of islam stays away.
islam is like the class bully in the Schoolyard of World religions.
the muslim needs to master the concept of OBEYING the Commandments of God.1,400 years on and you STILL don’t even get the concept of that 6th Commandment:but then in fairness,allah doesn’t either k2:191
It’s difficult of course,since allah DISAGREES with them:Oh, and he completely missed the two chief ones didn’t he?they are found exactly.. NOWHERE in islam.
The reason muslims don’t get on with others is because allah,in TOTAL violation of God’s 2nd Chief Commandment{a concept beyond the capacity of many muslims to grasp}says
“Oh ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends”
koran 5V 51
Ya see? allah missed that Golden Rule,that LOVE thy neighbor bit didn’t he?
If you have any doubts as muslims what the OFFICIAL LAWS of the Actual God are,please follow allah’s advice to his “prophet” muhammed in koran 10:94 to consult the “Scripture that was before thee”
Yes,the..BIBLE.
allah,unhelpfully,doesn’t bother to put them in his “perfect” koran,that book that has more metaphorical holes in it than a Swiss Cheese.
See if you can find EXODUS 20:there you go.You will note that God condemns Murder,Adultery,Stealing,Bearing false witness etc..
Refer back to the “holy” koran and you will note that allah,who wants you to think he is GOD, TOTALLY DISAGREES with these Laws of Exodus 20:that defeats the whole purpose of the Torah doesn’t it?
{thou may ..kill k2:191,commit adultery k33:50/k4:24,steal k48:20,lie k3:28 etc}
Can you see the problem?No?
muslims are SUPPOSED to OBEY these Laws of Exodus 20,not break them as allah the deceiver tells them they can.muslims are subject to the SAME laws as Jews and Christians.
But then allah is the champion deceiver k3:54 and his followers PROVE they would rather be deceived.
mortimer says
HOW SHARIA IS AT ODDS WITH THE US CONSTITUTION AND HOW MOST MUSLIMS WANT BACKWARDNESS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzqNuCP5mM0&t=83s
BC says
pedantic how? By giving the whole truth in place of falsehood and misrepresentation of facts, pedantic means
.
“excessively concerned with minor details or rules; overscrupulous.” Perhaps if Ms Shaiq was more scrupulous she might be worth listening to. However she is not going to tell infidels the full truth as she does not want them to know the full truth about Islam Shia and Sunni, She wishes to lull them into passivity and acceptance. The Nazis who are admired by many Muslims knew the effectiveness of half truth in lulling the German people into supporting them.
BTW you need to remember that when ISIS invaded Iraq the Shia lead troops though down their fine US weapons and fled as they were terrified of what the Sunni ISIS would do to them. Peaceful co existence? I think not. Subsequent events proved them right
gravenimage says
+1
Sam says
Rezali
Please read your own Muslim history and stop re inventing the truth about Islam. Oh yes why don’t you read Koran and also Robert’s book “HISTORY OF JIHAD”
gravenimage says
Oh, she knows, Sam. She has gloated over her non-Muslim aunt being abducted and raped by her Muslim uncle, and she regularly salivates over the prospect of the brutal Muslim conquest of the West.
mortimer says
ANTI-SHI’ISM: PERSECUTION OF SHI’ITE MUSLIMS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Shi%27ism
Anti-Shi’ism is the prejudice, hatred of, discrimination or violence directed against Shia Muslims because of their religious beliefs, traditions and cultural heritage. The term was first defined by Shia Rights Watch in 2011, but has been used in informal research and scholarly articles for decades.
Genocide against Shi’ites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXxMKUlHLxU
DHazard says
A few years back, when ISIS was on a roll, I had a long internet debate with a fervent ISIS supporter. He made it very clear to me that their killing was prioritized. The Shia were at the top of the list of people to kill, even above the Jews, Hindus, and homosexuals. I think it was based on a hadith since hadiths are the source for most of Sunni Islam.
mortimer says
The Shi’ites are considered heretical deviants who renegades from sound doctrine. This is a turf war. In Saudi school curricula, the Shi’ites are depicted as polytheists who worship humans. KSA encourages hatred towards the Shi’ites.
gravenimage says
True, DHazard and Mortimer.
Chand says
Although I read Hugh’s very informative articles and value his knowledge, the fact is that apart from problems in Kashmir, Shias and Sunnis live in relative peace in the rest of India.
Rezali Mehil says
Salaam Chand,
Most likely you are Hindoo … so thank you even more and I concur that …where there is stability (no war) than in those regions Shia and Sunni do live in relative peace.
Sure there are problems … I am not denying that … but if you leave aside history and just LIVE …day to day …looking after family , bringing up children, going to work…. then there is no masla… that IS the relative truth.
Of course Hugh has the right to bring up historical context … things happened … but they are not the be all and end all … people bring these up for their own vile objectives … this is what Moina is saying.
I don’t think Moina is going to the nth degree of whitewash as many do, she is sharing what she has lived… I think it is as simple as that
More Later …
Rezali
Hugh Fitzgerald says
Of course I agree with you, and in a recent post– I forget which — I said exactly that. That is, the Shia have less to fear in India because, in a largely Hindu polity, they can be protected by Hindu and Sikh forces of order (police,military) which keep anti-Shi’a Sunnis from attacking.. Over time, this necessity for Sunnis two be on good behavior has allowed for the development of semi-decent relations between Shi’a and Sunni. But I cannot think of a Muslim country with both Sunnis and Shi’a where relations have been good. Can you?
gravenimage says
True, Hugh.
Rezali Mehil has sneered before at Hindus, especially disparaging Hindu men–but they are the people keeping Shia Muslims largely safe from their violent coreligionists in India.
rubiconcrest says
If anything Hugh F. is being too nice. The only truth in Islam is that it appeals to the basest instincts in man. Fasting is not really fasting. Religious freedom is not freedom. Women are not equal to men. Laws are arbitrary. To defend it in any way is not possible. She should be laughed at for making statements about the faith that are patently false.
Chand says
No Rezali, I am not Hindu .My mother was a Hindu and my father was an atheist Marxist. I am an atheist. I have come across both Shias and Sunnis, Arabs and Iranians, Indians and Bangladeshis and Pakistanis, in India and in the States, and they all live day to day, trying to survive, like you say .My two closest friends in India, one a Shia Gujrati, a Bohra, and the other a Sunni Bengali, were highly educated Westernized citizens of the world, brought up on Dylan and Camus, marijuana and scotch, like me and didn’t give a hoot about Islam or any other creed, like me.
Hugh Fitzgerald says
Do you really mean that you don’t have any worries about Islam on the march today because of your two advanced, educated,Westernized most un-Islamic and therefore most atypical Muslim friends? Do the 44 million Muslims now in Europe give you any cause for anxiety ? As you see the vast propaganda campaigns — these Ask-A-Muslim Anything events, with unwary ignorant Infidels swallowing it all up, and so many other things, including the takeover of academic departments where courses on Islam and Isamic history are often taught by the ikes ofJohn Esposito and Kaaren Armstrong, are you not alarmed? You and your friends may not give a damn about religion, but alack, alas, and welladay, there are about 1.5 billion (out of 1.6 million) Muslims who do. You know what Pakistan,with its special ruing blend of zamindars and terry-thomas fly-whisking generals right out of central casting, is like. You know of its continuing support for cross-border terrorism (as in Mumbai)), you know what local Muslims in Jammu-Kashmir have done to drive out or destroy 200,000 Kashmiri pandits with not a word of protest outside of India,, you know about the effect of the Muslim conquest on India, the 70-80 million Hindus killed, while tens of millions of other Hindus converted to Islam, not out of conviction, but to escape the onerous conditions of the dhimmmi, including, of course, payment of the Jizyah. Your two friends– the descendants of Hindus — are not Believers, but are Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only Muslims, and should not be taken as a guide to what the True Believers think and do.
Final inconclusive postscript: Decades ago, I accidentally dropped the pistachio ice cream cone I had been enjoying over the front of Pinky Bhutto’s dress. She was very gracious about it. That’s my only connection to Pakistani politics. .
I
gravenimage says
Hugh, Chand is a rather notorious apologist for Islam here. He also engages in large amounts of false Tu Quoque.
StellaSaidSo says
There must be more than one Chand on JW. The one who posted at 1:32 pm seems quite indifferent to Islam and to religion in general.
‘False Tu Quoque’? Interesting notion. I guess there must be such a thing as ‘True Tu Quoque’ as well. Perhaps you would care to explain?
gravenimage says
Why would Chand regularly post here if he was indifferent to Islam? Does he just wander in to Jihad Watch on a regular basis by accident?
Yes, my saying “false Tu Quoque” was repetitive–no adjective was needed. Really, it is so important to watch things like this while opposing Jihad. Heaven forfend someone felt they had to throw in with the Jihadists after witnessing such a blatant gaffe?
StellaSaidSo says
@ gravenimage
Speaking of ‘opposing jihad’, what exactly do you contribute to the cause?
Personal attacks on JW posters who trigger you don’t count.
gravenimage says
StellaSaidSo has said before that she considers my Anti-Jihad artwork, letters on Jihad and Shari’ah to politicians and officials, work on the ground, and contributions here and on other sites to be “fatuous”.
With respect, I disagree.
gravenimage says
Thank you, thebigW.
Chand says
No Hugh.My two Muslim friends are not descendants of Hindus, as far as I can guess. Both of them look like descendants of Turks or Iranians who had settled in India. Fair, with quite a bit of Central Asian or Iranian features. But they are totally Indianized (and also Anglicized/Westernized).
Hugh, I respect you and do generally agree with you on Jihad issues. And I respect the fact that you are an atheist, like I am.
On the other hand, gravenimage is a paranoid Islamophobe, a crypto Nazi and a crypto White supremacist, although highly knowledgeable and well read. But she is confused as she pretends to be a Christian but is staring at the abyss. And she tends to state the obvious in her comments, just re-hashing things, as if they are profound insights.
I don’t want to mess with Wellington or Honest Ali here, whose views I respect and are intellectually superior to me, as you are Hugh. But Wellington could do better as he seems to have an irrational bias against all Muslims.
Anyway, Hugh, I don’t give a shit about any religion including Islam, and believe they are all hindrances to human well being. But I am just concerned that ALL Muslims are tarnished in the process.
I generally enjoy your essays..
Chand says
Then gravenimage seems to express sorrow, in public, about the demise about her mother in law.
You should have taken care of her at home. gravenimage. instead of letting her pass away in a hospice.
I sacrificed a good life to take care of my mom, and my dad, in their last years and my wife helped me in this endeavour.
The last days and moments are the most important………..
If your mom and dad are still alive, please make an effort to see them cross to the other side, by being at their side..
I worked in the American health care system and treated the American elderlies as my own mother and father, with a lot of tender loving care.
Chand says
The Prophet Muhammad said, in the Koran…….Heaven is at the feet of your mother.
gravenimage says
Chand wrote:
On the other hand, gravenimage is a paranoid Islamophobe, a crypto Nazi and a crypto White supremacist, although highly knowledgeable and well read. But she is confused as she pretends to be a Christian but is staring at the abyss.
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How does opposing the horrors of Jihad and Shari’ah make me a “crypto Nazi” and “crypto White supremacist”, when I have never expressed anything but disgust for both Fascism or racism?
No, Islam is not a race–it is an ideology, and a terribly vicious one.
More:
I don’t want to mess with Wellington or Honest Ali here, whose views I respect and are intellectually superior to me, as you are Hugh. But Wellington could do better as he seems to have an irrational bias against all Muslims.
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What calumny against Wellington here, who has never had an irrational bias against all Muslims. Instead he opposes the savagery of Islam, as I do.
More:
Anyway, Hugh, I don’t give a shit about any religion including Islam, and believe they are all hindrances to human well being. But I am just concerned that ALL Muslims are tarnished in the process.
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Standing up against the barbarism of Islam only tarnishes Muslims if they also adhere to such tenets of their creed.
More:
Then gravenimage seems to express sorrow, in public, about the demise about her mother in law…
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Good God–a moral lecture from an apologist for the most appalling brutality–I will keep the source in mind.
More:
The Prophet Muhammad said, in the Koran…….Heaven is at the feet of your mother.
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Actually, this is not from the Qur’an–it is from a rather obscure collection of Hadith–the Sunan an-Nasa’i, Book of Jihad. Here is the Hadith in question:
It was narrated from Mu’awiyah bin Jahimah As-Sulami, that Jahimah came to the Prophet and said:
“O Messenger of Allah! I want to go out and fight in Jihad and I have come to ask your advice.” He said: “Do you have a mother?” He said: “Yes.” He said: “Then stay with her, for Paradise is beneath her feet.”
This is not generally considered a Sahih (reliable) Hadith.
But let’s assume for the sake of argument that it is.
The “Prophet” also taught that women are deficient in intelligence and religion; that they can be married off as children; polygamy; that the most important part of a marriage contract is the unrestricted access that a man is given to his wife’s vagina; that men can beat and rape their wives; that women have to stay in abusive marriages; that they can be summarily divorced; that women deserve less in inheritance than men; that Infidel women can be kidnapped, raped, and kept as sex slaves; that Muslim women have to veil or they can be molested by Muslim men; that most of those in Hell are women.
This is what the foul “Prophet” actually thought of women, and women–both Muslim and Infidel–have been suffering because of this for 1400 years now.
gravenimage says
One further point–in the comments where I expressed sorrow over the passing of my mother-in-law, my main point here was that while there is sadness in everyone’s lives, that the real evil is *deliberately* causing pain and horror, as Islam does.
Note that Chand has chosen to completely ignore this point–but then, why wouldn’t he?
b.a. freeman says
paranoid Islamophobe … crypto Nazi and .. crypto White supremacist …
—
Chand, as a born-again christian, i mourn when people are not christian, but i won’t attempt to force anybody to accept Jesus. as one who loves life, i celebrate when other people love life as well, even if they aren’t christian. perhaps if i am Christ-like enough, my actions and words may attact non-christians to me, and i can discuss it with them.
muslims are a whole ‘nother animal, though. when somebody says that he is jain, or buddhist, or bahá’í, i accept that they are not christian, then go on with my life. when i remember, i try to pray for them, that they might accept Jesus, but because i’m not perfect, i sometimes forget, and other times i get irritated and don’t out of sinful obstinacy. when a person says that he is muslim, however, if he will be staying in my vicinity, i need to learn more. most muslims in non-muslim nations were at one time well-behaved (muhammed would call them hypocrites), but since eurabia allowed millions of muslims entry with little, if any, documentation, there are now many pious muslims among the ummah in non-muslim nations. a pious muslim – one who does what muhammed would do – is a *very* dangerous person, except to other pious muslims. should such a person be around, i need to know so that i can warn my family and friends, and so that i can remain alert should the necessity arise for defending same. nevertheless, in my country, where rule of law is *supposed* to reign supreme (although the left has been doing its best of late to destroy that), i will simply wait and watch carefully, since every individual should be given the benefit of the doubt, and be judged by his own behavior. there are no doubt many pious muslims in the u.s., but so far, the State has not completely abandoned ordinary citizens, failing to protect us from the attacks of the pious ummah; thus, if a muslim in my vicinity obeys the law and attacks nobody physically, i may someday judge him to be safe. until that someday comes, however, my guard will be up.
other than wanting everybody to accept Jesus, i, too, could not give a s**t about religion – except that religion and politics make for the best discussions, if tempers can be kept in check. in my case, i find that it is best not to call people names during such a discussion. yes, in the heat of the moment, i have made some really hurtful sardonic statements, which i regret to report have driven away at least 2 friends, but that was decades ago, and it taught me to control my anger, even when attacked.
which brings me to the reason for this post. why do U attack gravenimage? perhaps i have not seen all his posts, but i have read quite a few, and i have seen nothing that resembles nazism or white supremacism. furthermore, “islamophobe” is a word invented either by a pious muslim or by somebody who does not understand islam; if one is not muslim and reads the quran and the sunnah, one should most assuredly be frightened by islam. if not, one must have taken but a cursory glance at what some ayatollah or imam says about it to kuffar, not at what the scriptures teach.
can U refer me to the racist or nazi posts of gravenimage?
gravenimage says
Meet A Muslim: Moina Shaiq (Part Four)
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Taqiyya-spewing Muslims have tried to push the ludicrous claim that Sunnis and Shia got along fine until American involvement in Iraq. Of course, this is ludicrous not just distantly historically, but if you look at events in recent years pre 2003.
Westman says
It strikes me that Sunnis don’t like any other brands of Islam or Hindus.
The 1988 Gilgit Massacre of Shias by Sunnis had a bizarre start over disgreement of the sighting of the moon that led to “early” celebration of Eid al-Fitr by Shias. The Shias were then attacked and many killed which led to a revolt for a Shia State. That was put down by Osama Bin Laden and his merry band of pillagers and rapers while the Pakistan government stood by, allowing them to teach the Shias a “lesson”.
I expect the next nuclear war will be between Pakistan and India over Kashmir; started of course, by peaceful Muslims.
gravenimage says
Likely, Westman.
nicholas tesdorf says
After 4 episodes, Moina Shaiq’s distortions, lies and misunderstandings are becoming predictable and rather tedious. The Sunnis & the Shias have been at each other since the Battle of the Camel, sometimes called the Battle of Jamal or the Battle of Bassorah, which took place at Basra, Iraq, on 7 November 656 over the vengeance for the blood of Uthman
Mr. Maxwell S. J. Fenton says
Just as St Paul brought the Gentiles into the inheritance of the Jews causing absolute division between them, so too Muhammad not naming a successor for his pagan empire and leaving it to assassinations to decide. These divisions are simply here until the end of days.
Ideologically opposing views to who holds Truth.
Kasey says
They’re half way there already, both share the same ideology!