David Frum debated Steve Bannon the other day and lost, and so he has resorted to a strategy often employed by debate losers. He has written a windy article to re-debate the debate and turn it in his favor: “The Real Lesson of My Debate With Steve Bannon,” by David Frum, The Atlantic, November 4, 2018.
It’s 2500 words that only Frum’s mother could love or stand to read through, but in passing, Frum drops this:
When I was young, the most important challenges to those free societies seemed to come from Communists and Marxists. When I was not so young, the most important of those challenges seemed to come from Islamists. Today, they seem to come from—again, speaking politely—populists.
In 2002, David Frum wrote that Bat Ye’or, the pioneering historian of dhimmitude and Cassandra of Eurabia, was “the great Islamic scholar,” a “very great scholar: original, authoritative, lucid.” But by 2008, Frum had switched sides, complaining that “the scholar Bat Ye’or and the popularizer Robert Spencer” locate “the sources of Islamic violence in the Koran itself, in the person of Muhammad, and in the core teachings of the Muslim faith.” Never mind that Islamic jihadis do that on a routine basis; it was our fault for pointing out that they do.
And now this. Bear in mind that “Islamists” want to destroy free societies through violence and subversion, and replace them with Sharia states that will deny the freedom of speech, impose the death penalty for criticizing Islam and leaving Islam, reduce women to the status of commodities, legalize wife-beating, and institutionalize discrimination against and harassment of non-Muslims. Populists, by contrast, want to stop their nations from being inundated by migrants with vastly different values, and preserve the rule of law as delineated in the Western tradition, providing for equality of rights for all people. The people whom Frum is identifying as the threat to free societies, worse than “Islamists,” are the very people who are working hardest to defend free societies.
David Frum has, in short, gone quite mad.
Jenny says
It sells. Especially in Toronto.
mortimer says
Globalism wants to steamroll nationalism out of existence by smug dismissals and censorship.
Roderick MacUalraig says
Succinct and sound that one.
Well put.
mortimer says
Toronto is one of the most un-Canadian places in Canada. It’s a hub of globalism and kneejerk Marxism. Many of the migrants in Toronto have no emotional attachment to the place.
Giacomo Latta says
Yes. Now he can give a talk at any university in Toronto without fear of being roughed up. You’re a brave one, Frum.
Renate says
I am disappointed. I thought David Frum was better than that.
christianblood says
One wonders why our globalist Jewish friends like David Frum think
‘populist’ politicians in the West are more of a threat than islamic jihadists?
gravenimage says
Of course, this has nothing to do with the witless Frum being Jewish–there are plenty of dhimmis who are Gentile. as well.
But then, christianblood is pro-Hizb’allah, so this rhetoric should not surprise.
Roderick MacUalraig says
Shame what you said isn’t recognized. Pretty clear what you said is accurate. Aloha, GI.
gravenimage says
Thank you, Roderick.
Jon Sobieski says
Me too. I did not have high expectations from previous observations plus he is a nevertrumper. But this is really stupid. This guy doesn’t see Orban as the hero for Europe’s rescue from the EU dictatorship is dumbfounding. He actually thinks Orban is some evil dictator. Uh no, Orban’s party won by an overwhelming majority three times already. So facts just get in the way I guess.
Renate says
Mind you, this is in stark contrast to Bannon. I was REALLY impressed with him. I can’t believe that some people didn’t want him to come into the country or to speak. I didn’t find a word he said to be objectionable and I quite liked Bannon himself. He just told the truth. He wasn’t arrogant. I could listen to him all day long.
gravenimage says
+1
Renate says
One other thing is that Frum stuck up for George Soros, a guy who doesn’t openly run for public office, but is always behind the screen funding violence and civil unrest through groups like Antifa. Soros is an ethnic Jew, but not a religious Jew. He’s hardly an innocent victim, but that’s how Frum sees him.
Veryneat says
I watched the debate and was stunned by the vapidity of Fromm. His entire non-argument was an unending, crazy rant against Trump. He didn’t deal with a single one of Bannon’s Arguments. He seemed to be re fighting an election run of Trump vs. Bush. It is as though the Obama era had never taken place. He finally went over the top when he claimed that being anti Soros was being anti Semitic. He must know that Soros is a vile anti Zionist. At best Soros is a self-hating Jew. He hates Israel, the United States @nd the West. His money is used for 3vil purposes. Fromm knows this.
Fromm lost the debate and no post debate articles can eliminate his embarrassing performance.
Renate says
Veryneat, I agree 100%.
Westman says
Better? Or just, typical?
As I watched the election news on multiple channels I asked myself, “Which of these news personalities could or would fight to protect American lives in a land war?” Then I asked the same question about members of Antifa, CAIR, SPLC, Leftist college students/professors, European “leaders”, and now, David Frum.
It is rather sobering to realize the “populists”, those Frum considers a challenge to free society, are all that stand between he and the active animosity of Islam. Should he find himself in a no-go (“sensitive”) area in Paris or London, populists would not be his worry.
It is no wonder that Muslims flock, as a mob, uncontrolled, into Europe or that illegals flow into the US. Why did young Muslims knock windows out of trucks in Calais? Why do they burn cars in France? Why do they form rape gangs in London? Because they can without fear of weaklings who will not defend their nations.
The history of humans is bookmarked by war; the most brutal ones determining if societies shall remain free. For Israel it is an endless cycle to remain free.. War will be coming again for all of us regardless of the pronouncements of emasculated men to the contrary. And men like Frum, who thought the historically unusual period of peace in the homeland would last if we just gave everything away to aggressive cultures, will be useless.
Janwaar Bibi says
And men like Frum, who thought the historically unusual period of peace in the homeland would last if we just gave everything away to aggressive cultures, will be useless.
Actually they will push off to Israel,leaving the rest of us to deal with the Muslims they have invited in.You see this in Europe already.This is why their enthusiasm for Muslim immigration never extends to Israel.
gravenimage says
Is this some other moron claiming that Jews are wholly responsible for creating policy on Muslim immigration–even though they only make up a tiny minority of the population? Try again…
Janwaar Bibi says
I am saying that there are a lot of prominent Jews like Frum promoting Islamic immigration to Western countries. If they are so deeply concerned about the rights of Muslims, why aren’t any of them promoting Islamic immigration to Israel? Israel is a lot closer to Middle Eastern countries where most of these “refugees” come from.
Roderick MacUalraig says
So right, Hombre. Loved what you wrote.
Sad, but as you said it’s the way of the world. Prosperity and peace and then the inevitable relaxation of will to defend what the ass kickers of old fought so hard to create.
May sound strange, but the longer I live the more I suspect there’s a reason for it all. A method to the madness. I’ve heard it called Tao. May all be nonsense. And I’m probably just an idiot. I don’t know.
Aloha, Westman. Thanks for the great words.
mortimer says
NEWS FLASH FOR DAVID FRUM:
The Koran’s 164 Jihad Verses: K 002:178-179, 190-191, 193-194, 216-218, 244; 003:121-126, 140-143, 146, 152-158, 165-167,169, 172-173, 195; 004:071-072, 074-077, 084, 089-091, 094-095,100-104; 005:033, 035, 082; 008:001, 005, 007, 009-010, 012, 015-017, 039-048,057-060, 065-075; 009:005, 012-014, 016, 019-020, 024-026, 029,036, 038-039, 041, 044, 052, 073, 081, 083,086, 088, 092, 111, 120, 122-123; 016:110; 022:039, 058, 078; 024:053, 055; 025:052; 029:006, 069; 033:015, 018, 020, 023, 025-027, 050; 042:039; 047:004, 020, 035; 048:015-024; 049:015; 059:002, 005-008, 014; 060:009; 061:004, 011, 013; 063:004; 064:014; 066:009; 073:020; 076:008.
HEY, DAVE !!! You read those? No? We thought as much. You lazybones pontificator, Dave.
Ray Jarman says
++++++++++1
gravenimage says
Spot on, Mortimer.
Roderick MacUalraig says
LOL, Lazy Bones Pontificator
Nice
mortimer says
HEY, DAVE !!!
CAN YOU ANSWER THIS SIMPLE YES/NO QUESTION? (Or are you a fraud?)
– “Does JIHAD COME FROM THE PRIMARY ISLAMIC TEXTS? Or NOT?? Yes/No?”
– Definition of Dictionary of Islam: Jihad is “a religious war with those who are unbelievers (kufaar) in the mission of Muhammad. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Quran and in the Traditions as a divine institution, enjoined specially for the purpose advancing Islam and repelling evils from Muslims.”
– Ayatollah Morteza Motahhari, former Chairman of the Revolutionary Council of Iran, in a collection of lectures titled, “Jihad: The Holy War of Islam and Its Legitimacy in the Quran,” published by the Islamic Propagation Organization, Tehran, Iran, and posted on the website of Al-Islam.org (accessed Apr. 26, 2007), wrote: “‘And Fight those who have not faith in God, nor in the Hereafter, and (who) forbid not what God and His Prophet have forbidden and (who ) are not committed to the religion of truth, of those who have been brought the Book, until they pay tribute by hand, and they are the low.’ (9:29) [chapter:verse of the Qur’an]
– Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406), jurist, renowned philosopher, historian, and sociologist, summarized these consensus opinions from five centuries of prior Muslim jurisprudence with regard to the uniquely Islamic institution of jihad:
“In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the [Muslim] mission and [the obligation to] convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force… The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense… Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.”
– Daniel Pipes, PhD, Director of the Middle East Forum, in a Dec. 31, 2002 New York Post article titled “What Is Jihad?” wrote:
“Jihad is ‘holy war.’ Or, more precisely: It means the legal, compulsory, communal effort to expand the territories ruled by Muslims at the expense of territories ruled by non-Muslims. The purpose of jihad… is not directly to spread the Islamic faith but to extend sovereign Muslim power. Jihad is thus unabashedly offensive in nature, with the eventual goal of achieving Muslim dominion over the entire globe.”
-“Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated. By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.” – Source: Footnote commentary on jihad from p580 of Sahih Al-Bukhari, publ. by Maktba Dar-us-Salam
Roderick MacUalraig says
David? Are you going to weigh in here?
Walter Sieruk says
David Frum needs to get real. For he used the artificial term ” Islamist.”
For the word “Islamist” is a fake word that used that was made up after September 11, 2001 in order offend or upset non-violent Muslims. The real, actual, word is just “Muslim terrorist.” Likewise, the world “Islamism” is also a bogus word that was made up after 9/11 in order not to offend or upset peaceful Muslims. To keep with reality, it’s just the real word “Islam.” Let’s call people and things as the really are.
mortimer says
Walter,
DAVID FRUM knows LESS ABOUT ISLAMIC DOCTRINES of 1) JIHAD, 2) TAQIYYA and 3) AL WALAA WAL BARAA …
… than he does about ADVANCED NUCLEAR FUEL CYCLES !!!
Ewanda says
“Islamist” & “Islamism” are very legitimate and necessary terms that allow us to get our points across to the uninformed masses without polarizing them immediately against our attempts. if we use the word “Muslim” at anytime during our statements, a wall goes up and the image of “racist” is plastered across our visage and then ears get turned off. All that is heard is “blah, blah, blah, blah, blahhhh.” And we are no further ahead.
Even though your words are more accurate, they seem to be more fitting in conversations among the educated – which is a sorry minority of the global population. I find using “Islamist” and “Islamism” keeps the listener receptive longer before their eyes glaze over and that blank stare returns showing “fact overload”. Hopefully some of the facts sink in before that happens. I think we are making headway anyway.
Roderick MacUalraig says
I disagree. We can say Islamic, and that would be true & accurate.
We wouldn’t have to say Muslim, would we, considering many that consider themself Muslim wouldn’t agree with much in the way of violent and supremacist teachings and scripture that is clearly Islamic?
I disagree because these things have to be articulated as accurately as possible. In other words, don’t sugarcoat anything. Speak it like it is.
If people don’t have the reflecting articulation of mind and education in history and current events to hear or understand, then that has to be what it is. Evolution on these things Is unavoidable.
What is Islamic teaching is Islamic teaching. Talk about it plainly and forthrightly.
Muslims are individuals, however, and as individuals millions at any one time are being exposed to other ideas and principles and wavelengths of thought and spirit that have the potential to move them out of the supremacist and totalitarian system THAT IS Islam.
And it cannot be said too much, Islam is not a race of humans. Muslims are not a race of humans.
Aloha.
Danny says
Globalist all talk alike. Be a d’coder
Diane Harvey says
Frum, a legend in his own mind.
Frosty Wooldridge says
The Islamic religion-political system: a highly emotionally infectious, contagious, repugnant and debauched ethnic disease masquerading as a religion–added to a diabolical Sharia Law mandate. It warps minds of all adherents and forces them toward brutal, violent, cruel, vicious and insane behavior toward men, women and children. It creates suicidal maniacs and insensate intellectual morons. Humans under its spell lose their sensibilities, rational values, dignity and minds. They resort to wanton acts of murder, cruelty, perversion and barbarism. Because of mass immigration into first world countries, this insane religious disease floods into every corner of the planet—and with it a complete destruction of women’s rights, children’s rights, intellectual rights, gay rights, free speech, free choice of religions, dress, free choice of spouse, killing of gays, honor killings of women and a complete loss of humanity by Islam’s adherents. If not stopped by the willpower and force of first world countries, it will ravage the free world back into the Dark Ages. Frosty Wooldridge, six continent world bicycle traveler
Terry Gain says
The audience preferred Bannon’s humility, humour and logic over Frum’s arrogance, anger and hysteria.
Frum should be added to the scores of previously sane people who have been driven mad by Trump’s popularity. He was literally unhinged in his accusations against Trump.
Renate says
It was disgraceful to watch.
emma says
Well put, i too found that Bannon came off as humble and backed his position with logic and reason. Frum did come off as arrogant and a lot of smug virtue signalling.
Prabh says
I expected better from this person who was in the debate.
***
In the Dharmic World, mother, mother language and motherland are sacrosanct.
Realistically and logically, the only method of protecting ethno-religious diversity is through creation of strong, educated ethnostates – within Empires of Divine Light – and Aryavartan/Dharma Imperium.
This is not a step backward but a step forward in the advancement of the many and varied races of man.
Even if and when (God forbid) everyone is speaking Chinese and/or Arabic, I, and those similar to me, (our Panth and fellow related tribes, ethnicities, castes etc.) will still be holding on to Gurmukhi Panjabi (a language close to Sanskrit&Persian) and English. (maybe even a bit of French – who doesn’t love Brie cheese?) English is the language of Aviation and science.
My point is, the ‘populists’ are morally (ethically) IN THE RIGHT – the populists are CORRECT – maybe populists are not viewed as politically correct, but the populists are Dharmically correct. And, contrary to mass hysteria, a true populist will Protect his nations minorities. Loyal, ethical Minorities can be an asset to any state.
Islamojihadists are a very real problem – denying this is not going to make the problem of violent islamojihad go away – these freaks wish to destroy the world and bring about ‘judgement day’.
My philosophy and that of my dear friends: Live and let Live. Unfortunately islamics do not understand or respect this profound principle of Live and Let Live. In good faith I cannot respect islamojihadists either. As they say, respect is a two way street.
Prabh108 (as always kindly excuse any and all errors)
R. K. MacUalraig says
That was a joy to read.
Guy Macher says
David’s mother, Barbara Frum, was a lefty, so the acorn has not fallen far from the tree.
Terry Gain says
I liked Barbara Frum when she hosted As It Happens but she showed her true colours when she moved to The Journal which was designed for all good Canadians who had not been sufficiently spunned Left by the noghtlu news.
My most memorable Barbara Frum moment was from the Journal when the topic was ABORTION. The sudio was dark except for the light shining on Frum who was flanked by two people.
The voiceover intoned in the most solemn CBC tone: TONIGHT THE ISSUE THAT IS TEARING CANADIANS APART.
Frum turned and introduced the person seated to her left – A PRO CHOICE ADVOCATE.
Frum then turned and introduced the person seated to her right – A PRO CHOICE ADVOCATE.
As Jack Parr used to say. I kid you not.
gravenimage says
David Frum: “Most important challenges to free societies” once came from “Islamists,” today come from “populists”
……………..
What a load of tripe. Where have “populists” launched over 34,000 terror attacks just since 9/11, as pious Muslims have?
Unbeliever1 says
Sour grapes David. You lost the debate.
Mike2 says
” BEAR in mind “?
gravenimage says
This is correct–to bear in mind means to remember something:
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/to-bear-in-mind
Bear means both to “carry”–as here, and the large ursine animal.
Peter WF says
I thought democracy required populism!
Appears democracy is OK if the majority is agreeable to certain people.
Ewanda says
When did “Nationalism” which is a term that describes a pride in one’s positive aspects that a country has evolved into, been replaced by the word “Populism” which has come to label nationalists as people to abhor and point to as selfish, and racist? The EU was a romp through imposed, “globalism” and we can see the results as very negative.
Steve Bannon represented American Nationalism and that Nationalism aims to invite all citizens to embrace its original ideals of its Constitution… and that’s what made America Great.
It was really shocking to hear Mr. Frum deny the situation of Jews in this world today. I don’t think anyone has told him the Islamic involvement in the World War 2 Holocaust and as Usama Dakdok features every chance he gets …. Hosea 4: 6 …. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
gravenimage says
+1
Gerald Mucci says
Maybe it’s his form of “hype.” But his sense of moral equivalency is sorely lacking and dangerous.
kouldb says
Today—most of your challenges—still come from Communists, Marxistss & Islamists. You complete & utter imbecile! Do these idjots even know what ‘populist’ means?
Steve D says
The right has been littered with these phony conservatives for a long time now. One thing Trump has really done well is to drive these phonies out into the open.
Older Canadian says
Idiot. Unfortunately there are too many more like him with a voice that is considered honest, educated and noble for all to hear. Obviously the study of history and/or comparative religion was never on his itinerary.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
I’m seeing way too much of Barbara’s brat on the telly these days. Could it be that he’s trying to make his way back to Canada? What’s wrong Davie? Couldn’t make it the big, bad US?
Hey boys and girls, can you say, “nepotism and cronyism?”
If this guy had to make on his own smarts alone, he’d be driving a delivery truck!
UNCLE VLADDI says
“Yeaaaaahhhh … that’s what I meant to say! That’s the ticket!”
PATHETIC.
UNCLE VLADDI says
Re: “Bear in mind that “Islamists” want to destroy free societies through violence and subversion, and replace them with Sharia states that will deny the freedom of speech, impose the death penalty for criticizing Islam and leaving Islam, reduce women to the status of commodities, legalize wife-beating, and institutionalize discrimination against and harassment of non-Muslims. Populists, by contrast, want to stop their nations from being inundated by migrants with vastly different values, and preserve the rule of law as delineated in the Western tradition, providing for equality of rights for all people. The people whom Frum is identifying as the threat to free societies, worse than “Islamists,” are the very people who are working hardest to defend free societies. David Frum has, in short, gone quite mad.”
It’s all to common in the West today, and here’s both how and why:
What is “Socialism?” it’s the “cultural” indoctrination or education command to children to Be Sociable – in associating with other people; in stead of simply saying “gangster group-rights-made-rights behavior is bad” the opposite is encouraged: Always try to go along (with the criminals’ main lie that they are really only equally helpless fellow victims to whom you should display submissive useless pity instead of useful but risky anger) to get along (with all the other scary lying extortive criminals). Conclusion: Socialism is basically only extortion, and perpetual extortion is slavery. Commanding others to submit to extortive slavery makes them turn off their brains from fear, inducing psychopathy: paranoia, masochism, hypocrisy.