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Jihad Watch

Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

Australia: Muslims say call to disavow violent Qur’an verses is “inappropriate,” will “never, ever, ever” do it

Feb 2, 2019 10:51 am By Robert Spencer

Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohamed, the Grand Mufti of Australia, claims that “only two Koran verses talk about pre-emptive fighting.”

Unfortunately, the reporter or reporters present apparently didn’t have the wit, interest, or journalistic standards to ask him which ones those were. There are many more verses than two that call upon Muslims to fight unbelievers, whether pre-emptively or not. Here are some of them. Note that 8:39 calls on Muslims to wage perpetual war against non-Muslims until they become Muslim or, as per 9:29, submit to Islamic hegemony.

“And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out; persecution is worse than slaughter. But fight them not by the Holy Mosque until they should fight you there; then, if they fight you, kill them — such is the recompense of unbelievers, but if they give over, surely Allah is all-forgiving, all-compassionate. Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is Allah’s; then if they give over, there shall be no enmity save for evildoers.” (Qur’an 2:191-193)

“We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.” (Qur’an 3:151)

“They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore do not take friends from among them, until they emigrate in the way of Allah; then, if they turn their backs, seize them and kill them wherever you find them; do not take for yourselves any one of them as friend or helper.” (Qur’an 4:89)

“This is the recompense of those who fight against Allah and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth to do corruption there: they shall be killed, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall be struck off on opposite sides; or they shall be exiled from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement.” (Qur’an 5:33)

“When your Lord was revealing to the angels, ‘I am with you; so confirm the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers; so strike the necks, and strike every finger of them!” (Qur’an 8:12)

“Fight them, till there is no persecution and religion is all for Allah; then if they give over, surely Allah sees the things they do.” (Qur’an 8:39)

“Make ready for them whatever force and strings of horses you can, to strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them that you know not; Allah knows them. And whatever you spend in the way of Allah shall be repaid you in full; you will not be wronged.” (Qur’an 8:60)

“Then, when the sacred months are over, kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms, then let them go their way; Allah is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.” (Qur’an 9:5)

“Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not practice the religion of truth, even if they are of the People of the Book — until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.” (Qur’an 9:29)

“Allah has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of Allah; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon Allah in the Torah, and the Gospel, and the Koran; and who fulfils his covenant truer than Allah? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him; that is the mighty triumph.” (Qur’an 9:111)

“O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you; and let them find in you a harshness; and know that Allah is with the godfearing.” (Qur’an 9:123)

“So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior; and Allah is with you and will never deprive you of your deeds.” (Qur’an 47:35)

“When you meet the unbelievers, strike their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads. So it shall be; and if Allah had willed, He would have avenged Himself upon them; but that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will not send their works astray.” (Qur’an 47:4)

But not to worry. It’s all because non-Muslim English speakers take these verses out of context, doncha know. Silma Ihram, president of the Australian Muslim Women’s Association, “said that when the Koran is translated from Arabic to English, ‘meaning and context is lost.’” She says: “The English translation does not convey the depths of meaning that the Koran actually holds for those relevant verses. There are very few verses in the Koran that can be twisted for violent purposes, there are a lot more in other scriptures. That is why we are working as much as we can to educate Muslims on interpreting the Koran.”

If there are “a lot more” verses in other scriptures “that can be twisted for violent purposes” than there are in the Qur’an, why have there been 34,516 violent jihad attacks worldwide since 9/11, each one committed by devout Muslims who often cited the Qur’an to explain and justify their actions, while there have been no terror attacks by Jews or Christians who cited the Bible to explain their actions? If Ihram had been asked that question, she would doubtless have answered that it was because of Israeli “occupation” and the depredations of American foreign policy. But The History of Jihad shows that Islamic jihad is a lot older than America and Israel, and is a constant of Islamic history, everywhere Muslims have gone.

I’ve written all this over and over again, in response to the claims of so many deceivers. It is over 17 years since 9/11 now. Islamic jihad groups are active all over the world. Yet the West remains so resolutely blinkered, so unwilling to see that there even is a problem, that these deceivers keep deceiving again and again, and no one challenges them. Probably on the last day of its operation, as Australia is engulfed in civil war between non-Muslims who don’t wish to live under Sharia and Muslims who believe they have a responsibility before Allah to make sure that they do, SBS News will still be publishing stories about how the Qur’an is misunderstood on a massive scale, and Islam is really, deep down, a religion of peace.

“Islamic leaders reject judge’s call for Muslims to denounce verses of the Koran,” by Maani Truu, SBS News, February 1, 2019 (thanks to Phil):

Australian Muslim leaders have rejected comments from a NSW Supreme Court justice, who said Muslim leaders should publicly denounce “belligerent” verses of the Koran, as “inappropriate”.

Grand Mufti of Australia Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohamed said religious leaders would “never, ever, ever” disavow verses of the holy text while president of the Australian Muslim Women’s Association Silma Ihram said that it was not appropriate for a judge to delve into religious scripture interpretations.

“All Muslim associations that are registered and well-known in Australia have condemned acts of violence and have condemned the use of terrorism,” she said.

“So to hold us to account for the misinterpretation and misuse of our holy book is inappropriate.”

On Thursday, Justice Des Fagan said Muslims need to “make a clear public disavowal” of what he called “belligerent” verses of the Koran while sentencing two terror-plotters in the NSW Supreme Court.

Speaking on SBS Arabic24, Dr Mohamed rebutted the comments and invited Justice Fagan to meet him over coffee.

“You don’t ask to disavow medicine if some doctors exploited it, you don’t ask to disavow law if some lawyers misused it,” he said.

“We have been talking about this for the last 15 years; we have disavowed any act that harms anyone.”

He said only two Koran verses talk about pre-emptive fighting while Ms Ihram pointed out that when the Koran is translated from Arabic to English, meaning and context is lost.

“The English translation does not convey the depths of meaning that the Koran actually holds for those relevant verses,” she said.

“There are very few verses in the Koran that can be twisted for violent purposes, there are a lot more in other scriptures.

“That is why we are working as much as we can to educate Muslims on interpreting the Koran.”

Dr Rateb Jneid, Australian Federation of Islamic Councils president, said a judge shouldn’t be drawing conclusions on a holy text.

“A judge’s role is to deal with the individual before the court and not the religion as a whole,” he said in a statement.

“A judge in such circumstances is unlikely to have sufficient material before them to draw any conclusions about the religious position on such texts beyond what the individual in question may or may not believe.”

Justice Fagan’s comments came during the sentencing of Sameh Bayda and Alo-Bridget Namoa, both 21, who were found guilty in October last year of conspiring to prepare for a terrorist act.

“Terrorists’ reliance on verses of the Koran to support an Islamic duty of religious violence has been seen with more or less clarity in a number of NSW and Victorian cases,” he said.

“If the verses upon which the terrorists rely are not binding commands of Allah, it is Muslims who would have to say so.

“If Australian followers of the religion, including those who profess deep knowledge, were to make a clear public disavowal of these verses, as not authoritative instructions from Allah, then the terrorists’ moral conviction might be weakened.”

The couple, described by Namoa as a “jihadi Bonnie and Clyde”, were involved in planning a violent street robbery between December 2015 and January 2016.

Both are now eligible to apply for parole due to time already served since their arrest.

Justice Fagan pointed to sermons on the pair’s phones quoting Koran verses which “unmistakably instruct the believers to undertake jihad in pursuit of universal Islamic dominance” as an example of verses that should be denounced.

“As seen in this and numerous other prosecutions, the hostile verses [in the Koran] are inspiring serious crimes,” he said.

It’s not the first time that Muslim community leaders have been called on to do more to stop radicalism in their communities.

In November last year, following a terror attack in Melbourne CBD that left one man dead, Prime Minister Scott Morrison said there was a “special responsibility on religious leaders to protect their religious communities and to ensure that these dangerous teachings and ideologies do not take root here.”

“They must be proactive, they must be alert and they must call this out, in their communities and more broadly, for what it is,” he said.

The comments were met with backlash, as some Muslim leaders claimed that the statements “alienated” members of their community and the Australian National Imams Council accused the Prime Minister of politicising the Bourke Street attack.

“It is extremely disappointing in such difficult times and during a national tragedy, when all Australians of all faiths and backgrounds should be called upon to unite and stand together against any form of extremism and violence, to see our nation’s leader politicising this incident and using it for political gain,” the council said in a statement.

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Filed Under: Australia, Featured, Qur'an Tagged With: Grand Mufti of Australia Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohamed


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Comments

  1. somehistory says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 11:04 am

    Isn’t this what all, or at the very least, most, of us said they would do?

    They can’t be moslim and not go according to what their evil book tells them to do. And the female moslim saying the violence, the killing, etc,, is due to “misinterpretation and misuse” of the verses. And claiming, as they all do, that English distorts the meaning, the “deep” meaning of their filthy book.
    Verses that clearly say to murder, to strike terror, to do everything they can to see that islam rules over everyone…in whatever language, are violent and encourage murder, rape, and every evil under the sun.

  2. Rarely says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 11:09 am

    And therein lies the greatest problem. The muslim leadership will not even try to bring the “extremists” in their midst under control. I don’t like to think where this all might be leading.

  3. infidel says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 11:19 am

    Expected from this bearded monkey of a Koranimal.. What else can be expected?? it was a foregone conclusion. It is a clear admission by this senile monkey that Islam indeed endorses terror. And this monkey is calling the judge for coffee… for interfaith discussions I suppose!!!!

  4. Anjuli Pandavar says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 12:13 pm

    In attempting to deny the Qur’an’s role in the global wave of jihad terrorism, Grand Mufti Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohamed says, “Our religion is our honour, our life and we are sure that Islam doesn’t bear any evil, hate or grudge towards anyone.” This boast he supports with, “Most victims of terrorism are Muslim. Terrorism didn’t stop in a European city or a capital city in the west or east. It even hit the city of Medina, the second most holy site in Islam.” To anyone with a post-Enlightenment sense of ethics, this further information (all grimly true) serves only to *aggravate* Islamic terrorism, but to the Grand Mufti, it *mitigates* it. Between our ethics and theirs lies 1400 years of ethical evolution.

    Unfortunately for the Grand Mufti, his confidence that religious leaders would “never, ever, ever” disavow verses of the Qur’an is misplaced. There are enough ex-Muslims who were once imams. *He* might be sure that “Islam doesn’t bear any evil, hate or grudge towards anyone,” and he might even convince a Western judge or two, but his certainty does nothing to stem “the tsunami” (an imam’s words) of Muslims who can no longer suppress their own humanity, and are leaving Islam. The Grand Mufti might think that saying, “Most victims of terrorism are Muslim. Terrorism didn’t stop in a European city or a capital city in the west or east. It even hit the city of Medina, the second most holy site in Islam,” makes Islam look good. But he only demonstrates his utter failure to grasp the turmoil raging in the hearts of tens of thousands of Muslims who are reviled by such a statement and appalled that it should be offered *in mitigation* of Islamic terrorism. No Muslim can hold to twenty-first century ethics and at the same time feel vindicated in their faith knowing that Muslims also kill Muslims, Muslims also terrorise non-Western cities and Muslims hit their own holy city. There are Muslims who, on reading something like this, are severely shaken in their sense of themselves as Muslim. Their humanity is brought into direct conflict with their faith. Humanity, utterly lacking in the seventh century, is integral to the fabric of the twenty-first, and it is no longer possible to insulate Muslims from it, no matter how well the madrassas do their dark deeds upon tender souls, no matter how many firewalls governments erect. Humanity is let loose upon Islam and young Muslims find themselves responding. Unfortunately for Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohamed, no Grand Mufti is going to stop this, for they will never, ever, ever understand it.

    • Limpia says

      Feb 2, 2019 at 1:32 pm

      This was an excellent reply. I guess fact that he didn’t see the problem in his attempt to mitigate, shows a real and interesting blind spot. Wish u could debate him. Also, isn’t it true that apostasy and blasphemy laws (put in place perhaps to scare adherents and totally empower Mohammed) have a unique ability to prevent reformation?

      • Anjuli Pandavar says

        Feb 2, 2019 at 3:22 pm

        isn’t it true that apostasy and blasphemy laws (put in place perhaps to scare adherents and totally empower Mohammed) have a unique ability to prevent reformation?
        —
        This is a good observation. Such measures go a long way towards retarding reform by severely discouraging it. But they cannot on their own prevent it. The clincher, in my opinion, is the combination of the Qur’an being the perfect, literal word of Allah, i.e., to change it is itself blasphemy, and that it is incumbent on every Muslim to keep every other Muslim in line, including killing apostates. So to apostatise is not only a matter of turning against Islam, you’re also putting every other Muslim in the way of sin if they were to do nothing about your apostasy. It goes by the pious-sounding command to enjoin good and prevent bad, i.e., every Muslim is every Muslim’s policeman. For seventh-century totalitarianism, that’s ingenious. See how quickly Muslims ignite into crazed mobs and no one brakes ranks? This lies behind that. Combine this with the Muslim tribal code of absolute allegiance towards Muslims and absolute enmity towards infidels, and you get the bizarre phenomenon of Muslims straining to convince us that the terrorists are misinterpreting the Qur’an, are not real Muslims, that Islam is peaceful, etc., *as if we’re doing the killing and need to be made to stop!* Will they say a single word to convince their actual killer brethren of that? Of course not.

        • PRCS says

          Feb 2, 2019 at 4:41 pm

          Yes, that some/most/all Muslims believe Qur’an to be “Allah’s” literal, infallible word–valid ’til the end of time–is THE reason the Mufti has made it clear to his flock that any Australian Muslim who denounces/renounces/condemns a single word of that book will suffer consequences for their blasphemy.

          Muslims have been able to control “the narrative”, other Muslims, their dhimmis and their slaves for most of the last 1400 years–in Muslim countries.

          Now that they’ve infiltrated countries where man made laws reign supreme over Islamic law they’ve lost that control–especially–I believe–and as you note, among younger Muslims who’ve found themselves between the reality of 21st century western culture of humanity in which they live and the 7th century norms their “complete way of life” expects them to follow–forever.

          While a true believer can justify the amputation of a human being’s hand and foot on opposite sides–in their minds–they KNOW they would suffer the consequence of Australian’s man made laws for acting that out in Oz (laws which they know permit what Allah and his pal have made unlawful).

          Time, I think–if he’s legit–for “The Imam of Peace” to defy the Mufti.

        • Anjuli Pandavar says

          Feb 3, 2019 at 8:20 am

          “Now that they’ve infiltrated countries where man made laws reign supreme over Islamic law they’ve lost that control, especially… among younger Muslims who’ve found themselves between the reality of 21st century western culture of humanity in which they live and the 7th century norms their “complete way of life” expects them to follow–forever.”
          —
          PCRS, I think this is right, except that it is often the parents/grandparents of those younger Western Muslims who came to the West precisely to escape Islam. I would add that the identity crises besetting such young people plays a big role in the “moderate Muslim” phenomenon — a contradiction in terms if ever there was one! and with which Muslims such as Erdogan have very little patience.

          But for me the main significance of your observation is not its impact on Western Muslims, but on Muslims in the Dar al-Islam, in the fountainhead of all our troubles. Even though they are not *physically* in the West, technology has brought the West to them. They interact with it, both passively through satellite TV and actively through the Internet. A key prerequisite for totalitarian control is control over what people know. In its long centuries of geographic insularity and unchallenged conviction in their own supremacy (and a few other key variables that I won’t go into here), Islam was secure in its generation replication and confident of its future. That confidence was shaken during colonialism, when exposure to Western ways persuaded some literate elements in the Dar al-Islam that “the vilest of created beings” didn’t seem all that vile at all, in fact rather the opposite. Of course, the vast umma wallowing in ignorance, superstition and fear were not yet ready for this. The Muslim elites could adopt the creature comforts of the infidels if they left the ulama free rein over the masses. With this arrangement, Islam had bought time for itself. Technology and social evolution in the Dar al-Islam have finally called time on that arrangement.

          The social stratum in the Dar al-Islam that is locked into the West comprises both the rulers and the ruled. The ruling elites are being undermined by their own children wanting out (Rahaf Muhammed being a famous recent example). This does not have to happen on a mass scale. Most of those kids are having far too good a time to ever even contemplate anything so crazy. A few prominent cases are enough to establish the idea *in the Dar al-Islam* that it is possible to escape Islam. The other group is the literate urban youth. They are more than just a headache to the ruling elites, and they are a direct existential threat to the ulama. *They*, in my opinion, are Islam’s real Achilles’ heal. It is to them we have to turn if we are to finally rid the world of scourge of Islam, for they will destroy it far more rapidly and comprehensively than anyone else can.

          Of course it very much helps to hem in Islam in the West in every possible way, and, if the Australian judge’s sensible words were to be taken to their logical conclusion, banishing those who will not renounce the Qur’an to beyond the realm, exactly as Muhammad did with homosexuals (see, I’m not against following the example of Muhammad. I’m just taking his example in context 🙂 ). It would be counterproductive to ban Islam just as it would be counterproductive to ban the Qur’an. Far better be it to assist the liberation of the humanity of Muslims from the horrible seventh-century dead weight that’s been suffocated it for almost one-and-a-half millennia.

          Through Western dhimmi politicians, dhimmi academics, dhimmi media and dhimmi clergy, Islam is again buying time for itself, but those dhimmis have no effect at all on those Muslims in the Dar al-Islam who are, in very large numbers indeed, throwing off the yoke of Islam to claim their place in the world as free men and women, with their humanity in tact. I am optimistic.

        • gravenimage says

          Feb 3, 2019 at 4:44 pm

          Sadly, Anjuli and PRCS, younger Muslims tend to be *more* devout–that is, violent and supremacist–than their parents and grandparents.

        • Anjuli Pandavar says

          Feb 3, 2019 at 5:46 pm

          GI, “younger Muslims tend to be *more* devout–that is, violent and supremacist–than their parents and grandparents.”
          —
          This is true, but far from straightforward, as it is from this same group that by far the most apostates come. I’d suggest that the fact that the youth manifest *both* these tendencies points to two different ways of dealing with an identity crisis. The other is the denialism of the “moderate” Muslim.

        • gravenimage says

          Feb 3, 2019 at 10:34 pm

          This is true, Anjuli. Grimly, I think there are more increasingly devout Mohammedans than there are apostates, though.

        • PRCS says

          Feb 3, 2019 at 11:11 pm

          Good post, Anjuli.
          I disagree, however, with this:
          “the parents/grandparents of those younger Western Muslims who came to the West precisely to escape Islam”
          In truth, they brought Islam with them (if only their “personal” version of it).
          Had they just left it behind…..

        • gravenimage says

          Feb 3, 2019 at 11:24 pm

          Agreed, PRCS. Few of these Muslims actually came to the West to escape Islam. I wish they had.

        • Anjuli Pandavar says

          Feb 4, 2019 at 4:29 am

          PRCS and GI,
          Yes, you’re right. They’ve escaped Islam’s grosser excesses, but still brought Islam with them. I agree.

          Nonetheless, they left the Dar al-Islam *because* they could no longer live with a clash between their own humanity and the inhumanity of Islam. Escaping the Dar al-Islam and living a kind of cuddly Islam in the West is as much as they can bring themselves to do. And they’ve brought up their children to believe that their cuddly Islam is Islam. The trouble comes when heir children come face-to-face with reality. That’s when the kids go one of the three ways I mention above. Only if their kids opt for the “moderate Muslim” line and call for Islamic reform, can they support them (and they do, enthusiastically, not least to salvage their own credibility through their children’s vindication of their decisions). Their children opting for either of the other two responses, real Islam or apostasy, throws them into a tailspin. I suspect that many “moderate Muslims” calling for “Islamic reform” are not being entirely honest, but indulge in a kind of realpolitik for the sake of their parents. The only problem with that is that if they are public figures, their spread their deceit to others. Those with a conscience then simply drop out of the public limelight and go quiet, waiting for mom and dad to move on, so they can again emerge, themselves reformed.

        • Anjuli Pandavar says

          Feb 4, 2019 at 4:33 am

          This sentence:

          “I suspect that many “moderate Muslims” calling for “Islamic reform” are not being entirely honest, but indulge in a kind of realpolitik for the sake of their parents,”

          would read better as;

          “I suspect that many “moderate Muslims” calling for “Islamic reform” are not being entirely sincere, but indulge in a kind of realpolitik for the sake of their parents.”

        • gravenimage says

          Feb 5, 2019 at 12:28 am

          Anjuli Pandavar wrote:

          PRCS and GI,
          Yes, you’re right. They’ve escaped Islam’s grosser excesses, but still brought Islam with them. I agree.

          Nonetheless, they left the Dar al-Islam *because* they could no longer live with a clash between their own humanity and the inhumanity of Islam.
          ………………….

          Not all of them, Anjuli. Some came to escape some specific violence, but have no problem with Islam beyond that. Some just came to the West for opportunity, and some for the generous handouts.

          Worst of all, some came as invaders, specifically to spread Islam here and make us part of Dar-al-Islam.

  5. Michael Copeland says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 1:26 pm

    Dr Rateb Jneid … said a judge shouldn’t be drawing conclusions on a holy text.
    The judge is justified. The Koran forms part of Islamic law.

    • PRCS says

      Feb 2, 2019 at 3:35 pm

      Though the Mufti would counter that only a learned Muslim scholar/leader/cleric has the right/expertise to ‘judge’ Islamic law.
      And on, and on, and on….

      • Anjuli Pandavar says

        Feb 4, 2019 at 9:22 am

        Which just once again shows the ridiculousness of what they hold in such high esteem. Someone unable to grasp that the sun sets in a muddy stream, or that Muhammad went to Heaven on a flying horse, clearly lacks what it takes to judge Islamic law.

  6. Darryl Kerney says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 3:04 pm

    All the great literary works from around the world have been translated into other languages and have been fully understood by many who don’t speak or write the original language,
    What makes arabic the only language that supposedly cannot be translated without losing the “deep meaning” ?

  7. Ren says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 4:46 pm

    Everybody knows muslims would never ever condemn violence in islam because they approve it.

    • PRCS says

      Feb 2, 2019 at 8:46 pm

      Not just violence.
      There are other issues they won’t condemn, like polygamy.

    • Anjuli Pandavar says

      Feb 4, 2019 at 4:39 am

      Most of them do, but *none* of them will ever allow themselves to be seen disapproving of it. To do so would be to contradict the Qur’an. I think they should be *forced* to come clean, one way or the other. Otherwise *we* pay for their duplicity.

  8. ntesdorf says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 4:59 pm

    While ignorance of the Qur’an, Haddith and Sunna of Mohammed remain at high levels in the West, journalists will be able to continue to report this sort of Taqqiya without and question or research.

  9. Peter WF says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 5:38 pm

    We can all see the state of almost all of the Islamic countries – pathetic messes. How many are dependant on Christian west money?.
    Violence begets violence and it is a cycle that is perpetual.

  10. gravenimage says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 6:00 pm

    Australia: Muslims say call to disavow violent Qur’an verses is “inappropriate,” will “never, ever, ever” do it
    ……………………

    Of course. Disavowing violence is *always* “inappropriate” for Muslims.

    God, I hate Islam.

    • vivienne campbell says

      Feb 3, 2019 at 1:51 pm

      and i cant describe to you the degree of my hated sad loathing for it either!

      • gravenimage says

        Feb 3, 2019 at 11:09 pm

        +1

  11. PRCS says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 8:48 pm

    Not just violence.
    Anything and everything “Allah” has commanded–like polygamy.

    • gravenimage says

      Feb 5, 2019 at 12:38 am

      True, PRCS. It also includes the oppression of unbelievers, FGM, “child marriage”, slavery, rape and sex slavery, wife beating, “Honor Killing”, stoning women to death…on and on.

  12. tim gallagher says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 10:39 pm

    I was waiting for some Muslim response to Justice Fagan’s talk, in court, about the need for Muslims to “disavow” the passages in the Koran calling for violence. I thought when Fagan mentioned this need to “disavow” the violence in Islam that what he was saying was useless because Muslims were never going to change anything about the vile Koran and its evil content. After all, Islam says everything is perfect (perfectly evil in my opinion) about the Koran and it is the improved and final revelation of god ( of Satan I’d say). But, how about this scumbag saying it’s “inappropriate” to call for the foul Koran to be altered. Just keep Islam out of all non-Muslim nations. Any religion that has a “sacred” text (the Koran) that calls for the members of that religion to try to kill people who don’t belong in the religion, is a clear danger and all members of the religion need to be kept out. Imagine how dumb our political leaders are to think that it makes sense to let members of Islam into our countries, when they believe such evil commands. Our dumb leaders think it makes sense to invite this dangerous enemy into our non-Muslim nations. It’s insane. I say it’s totally “inappropriate” to let Muslims in. All others welcome. Islam, no way.

    • Anjuli Pandavar says

      Feb 3, 2019 at 8:45 am

      Tim,

      “Just keep Islam out of all non-Muslim nations.”
      —
      Unfortunately there’s this thing they call “jihad” — a minor detail, admittedly — but nonetheless. Think of that severed in hand in “Terminator”, or the one in “Game of Thrones”. They just keep coming, no matter what! As soon as conditions permit, Muslims MUST declare a caliphate. As soon as a caliphate is declared, it MUST attack the Dar al-Harb. Not only that, ALL Muslims, wherever they may be MUST pledge allegiance to such caliphate. While there is Islam anywhere in the world,

      THIS. WILL. NEVER. STOP.

      • tim gallagher says

        Feb 3, 2019 at 4:25 pm

        Good points you make, Anjuli. I am constantly struck by how idiotic it is for our leaders to keep letting in Muslims when Muslims are members of a religious ideology which actually has calls ( in its central “holy” text) for them to kill non-Muslims. IN Buddhist texts, I’m guessing there are no calls for violence against non-Buddhists, etc. Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland seem to get it and have said very clearly, “Nope, we’re not having Muslims here”. Their policies are what I’m calling for. You are right though, what really needs to happen is that Muslims pack up and leave the foul religion, Islam. I read your comment up above and I hope it is true that there really is a “tsunami” of Muslims leaving Islam and joining civilised humanity. What great news. As you say, “While there is Islam anywhere in the world” there will be trouble for all of us non-Muslims. Islam needs to disappear altogether. But, we do need to try keep Islam out of all our countries. Doing so would at least let Muslims know how disliked and unacceptable their murderous ideology is. That might help more Muslims to decide to pack up and leave Islam.

        • PRCS says

          Feb 3, 2019 at 11:18 pm

          “But, we do need to try keep Islam out of all our countries.”
          But, given the lawsuits leveled against President Trump concerning his “Muslim Ban”, and as so many already live here, that just isn’t realistic, IMO.

        • tim gallagher says

          Feb 4, 2019 at 4:06 am

          Thanks for your comment, PRCS, maybe we can’t stop all Muslim migration into our countries, but I’m pretty sure we can at least reduce their numbers. In a democracy, it is all a matter of mobilising big enough numbers of people (pressure groups) to force governments to reduce the numbers of Muslims they let in. Or political groups which say “hey, we’re ending Muslim migration, vote for us” become strong. Wilders” political party and Le Pen’s Party seem very strong. I keep pointing to Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland because I’m sure they are on the right track. They are democracies so I presume vast numbers of people in those countries must support banning Muslim migration. In a democracy, if enough people demand something the political parties have to fall into line. You mention Trump’s problems in the USA. I’m in Australia, so it is a different situation. I don’t think Australia will wake up in time. Too many people here are just unaware or don’t want to seem racist or Islamophobic. So I’m far from optimistic. I’ve been writing to our politicians since 2001 calling for them to end Muslim migration. I donate to political parties who say they will at least aim to end Muslim migration. I’d say I’m not achieving much but I can’t give up. I’m far from optimistic but I have to keep fighting for what I believe is the right way to go. If I wasn’t quite old, maybe I’d try to go to some place like the Czech Republic to live, although, I must say, life remains pleasant in Australia and I couldn’t stand the cold weather in Europe and learning another language would be difficult.. Unfortunately, I’m far from sure that life will remain pleasant in Australia in the future.

        • gravenimage says

          Feb 5, 2019 at 12:41 am

          Agreed, Tim.

  13. Lydia Church says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 10:49 pm

    “… kill them…. kill them…. kill them… !” ~koran

    “Australian Muslim leaders have rejected comments from a NSW Supreme Court justice, who said Muslim leaders should publicly denounce “belligerent” verses of the Koran, as “inappropriate”.”

    “…religious leaders would “never, ever, ever” disavow verses…”

    So there we have it, straight out of the Trojan horse’s mouth…

  14. Lydia Church says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 11:03 pm

    “Australian National Imams Council accused the Prime Minister of politicising the Bourke Street attack…”

    Oh okay, so a terrorist act to take over the lands of non muslims is not considered a political act, but to highlight the wrongs of such an act and their source… is politicising?

    And this one has the dead giveaway:

    “It is extremely disappointing in such difficult times and during a national tragedy, when all Australians of all faiths and backgrounds should be called upon to unite and stand together against any form of extremism and violence, to see our nation’s leader politicising this incident and using it for political gain,” the council said in a statement.”

    Agenda decoded:

    “…all Australians of all faiths and backgrounds should be called upon to unite and stand together…”
    unity card being played leading to one world religion

    “…and stand together against any form of extremism and violence…”
    using a threat as a springboard to unite people into one world religion

    “…unite and stand together against any form of extremism and violence…”
    so it’s okay to ‘unite’ with the people from the source of this violence, but not to expose it and complain about it

    “…any form of extremism…”
    including ‘right wing’ extremism and loyal Christians

    “…to see our nation’s leader politicising this incident and using it for political gain…”
    terrorism is not ‘politicising,’ but guarding against and exposing it is ‘politicising’ according to them

    Yup, sharia compliant and one world religion agenda can have lots of check marks on the clipboards..

  15. TKF says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 11:25 pm

    The more Muslims you have, the more Islam you have, and the more Islam you have, the more violence, crime and terror attacks you have. This ain’t brain surgery people. For it is written. And that’s the problem…it IS written, in their unholy holy book.

  16. TKF says

    Feb 2, 2019 at 11:30 pm

    I love how Muslims and their apologists have to literally twist themselves into pretzels trying to explain away all the calls from God on high to kill and be heinous. I got your context…right here!

  17. sidney penny says

    Feb 3, 2019 at 12:18 am

    “That is why we are working as much as we can to educate Muslims on interpreting the Koran.” Silma Ihram, president of the Australian Muslim Women’s Association.( a Christian convert to Islam)

    Has not been working out too well eh Silma?

    What is the quality of the education? (from PAL TV?)

    • Anjuli Pandavar says

      Feb 3, 2019 at 8:54 am

      “educate Muslims on interpreting the Koran” – This is a *Muslim* speaking, people. She does *not* mean what this statement suggests on its face. It’s designed to gain her the benefit of the doubt, which we readily give.

  18. sidney penny says

    Feb 3, 2019 at 12:28 am

    “All Muslim associations that are registered and well-known in Australia have condemned acts of violence and have condemned the use of terrorism,” she said.

    Silma Ihram, president of the Australian Muslim Women’s Association is very cunning.She has condemned acts of violence and condemned the use of terrorism but not the texts(verses in the tests) that lead to acts of violence and terrorism.

    Never heard Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohamed, the Grand Mufti of Australia, or Silma Ihram condemn the “only two Koran verses talking about pre-emptive fighting.”

    or any other Muslim-Which two verses we do not know because they have never said it or ever spoken about it..

  19. sidney penny says

    Feb 3, 2019 at 12:36 am

    Was justice Das Fagan of the NSW Supreme Court in Australia wrong?

    Read chapter 4,5,and 6 of The Calcutta Quran Petition and you will find the answer.

    http://voiceofdharma.org/books/tcqp/index.htm

    http://voiceofdharma.org/books/tcqp/chii4.htm

    The Calcutta Quran Petition

    The Koran, also spelt as Quran, the so-called religious book of the Muslims the world over.

    It is a Book which incites violence, disturbs public tranquility, promotes, on ground of religion, feelings of enmity, hatred and ill-will between different religious communities and insults other religions or religious beliefs of other communities.

    Non-Muslims have to learn to knock out Islam’s ideological fangs which are rooted in the Quran.

    The Book has verses which preaches cruelty, incites violence and disturbs public tranquility. Chapter 4

    The Book promotes religious enmity, hatred and ill-will between different religious communities. Chapter 5

    The Book insults other religions or religious beliefs of other communities. Chapter 6

    While the Koran abounds with saying which incite violence, insult the religious beliefs of other communities and even exhort the Muslims to kill and murder non-Muslims, the problem is aggravated by yet another fact which has been true in the past and is universally true in our own times that unlike other communities Muslims are, and even fresh converts tend to become, highly orthodox people and follow the sayings of the book with a fanatical zeal with the result that whichever country has their sizable number amongst its population can never have peace on its soil.

    This was said in 1985 and it is still true today in 2019

    The offending expressions contained in the Koran and quoted above are not so offensive in their translation in which they are so quoted as they are in the original verses in Arabic or in Urdu, the very sound of whose inimitable symphony not only sends the Muslims to tears and ecstasy but arouses in them the worst communal passions and religious fanaticism which have manifested themselves in murder, slaughter, loot, arson, rape and destruction or desecration of holy places in historical times as also in contemporary period not only in India but almost all over the world.

  20. Aussie Infidel says

    Feb 3, 2019 at 11:56 pm

    The Grand Mufti of Australia Dr Ibrahim Abu Mohamed said, “Religious leaders would ‘never, ever, ever’ disavow verses of the holy text.” Of course they wouldn’t. The Koran forbids them to do so. “There is no changer of His words” (K18:27); “And none reject Our verses except the disbelievers.” (K29:47). Disavowing the violence in the Koran would be blasphemy, which is punishable by death (K5:33, 9:12, 33:57; Reliance of the Traveller o11.10). His remark about disavowing medecine because some doctors exploit it, is ridiculous and merely a red-herring – but typical of the tactics of Muslim clerics. Mohamed knows full well that there are dozens of violent verses in the Koran, but he is simply using the Islamic doctrine of taqiyya (lying or deception), to fool gullible kafirs. Nevertheless, those violent verses inspire the actions of jihadis – who often quote them as they go about their heinous attacks. As Abraham Lincoln said, “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”

    Silma Ihram of the Australian Muslim Women’s Association claims that translation of the Koran into English – or any other language – does not convey the true meaning of those verses. But this is a favourite ploy used by Muslims to muddy the waters. Of course translations from one language to another may not convey some of the nuances of the original text, becuse of the many alternative words and idioms which can be used in the process. And admittedly, sometimes there is no suitable word in another language. But generally, most translations DO CONVEY THE INTENT of the original. Whether “kill them wherever you find them” (Q9:5 etc), should be “kill”, “murder”, “assassinate”, “slaughter”, “slay”, or “execute”, doesn’t really matter – whichever word is used, the intent of the verse is that the unfortunate victim (usually a kaffir or disbeliever) be “put to death.” Is Ihram suggesting that all those Muslims who can’t read Arabic, are misinformed about their religion? If so, she should issue a fatwah ordering all Korans other than those written in Arabic, to be burned forthwith, so there is no more confusion. But I don’t think the rest of the Ummah would agree with her.

    Ihram also claimed “All Muslim associations that are registered and well-known in Australia have condemned acts of violence and have condemned the use of terrorism.” Of course they have! But not for the reasons she would have us believe. Those condemnations are nothing more than ‘crocodile tears’ – again using the doctrine of taqiyya to fool gullible Aussies into believing that Islam is a religion of peace. Judge Fagan is not misinterpreting Islam’s holy book. He is absolutely correct. Muslims should renounce the violence in their scriptures – but of course they won’t – for again, that would be blasphemy.

    The problem for Islam in the information age, is that more and more people are discovering the ‘dark side’ of this belligerent creed – including many Muslims themselves. In the past, Islam could hide behind the ignorance of the population. And while there are still plenty of ignorant people around – including many of our leaders – many more are waking up to the fact that Islam is not a ‘religion of peace’ but ‘a religion of the sword’; and its covert agenda is to ‘conquer the world for Allah’. Does Dr Mohammed or Ms Ihram deny that? And if so, what is the evidence?

    “Dr Rateb Jneid, Australian Federation of Islamic Councils president, said “A judge shouldn’t be drawing conclusions on a holy text.” But why should religion be protected from scrutiny? Because some psychopathic camel driver claimed he spoke with God 1,400 years ago? What rubbish! All supernatural beliefs are simply figments of the imagination – and they all fly in the face of science. Of course, in a free society people are entitled to believe what ever they like – no matter how crazy it is – providing it is not harming others.

    But Islam more than any other religion DOES HARM OTHERS – and quite deliberately. Islam commands Muslims to fight and even kill anyone who does not follow its dictates, and is therefore a CRIMINAL IDEOLOGY and MUST be subject to public scrutiny. A judge would be failing in his duty – as many already have – if he did not consider all the evidence. And if some of that evidence is contained in a holy text, then it should also be investigated and if need be, exposed as a criminal ideology, and a threat to our national security. Jneid’s statement illustrates the stark contrast between Western laws and the Sharia – and why they will never be compatible. For a start, under the Sharia, any criticism of Islam is forbidden (Reliance of the Traveler o8.7).

    Let’s hope Justice Fagan’s judgement also inspires other judges in the West to confront this belligerent creed which is hell bent on controlling the world.

    All this lying and obfuscation by Muslims to hide the truth, is just another reason why Islam has no place in a civilised society.

  21. Marigold says

    Feb 4, 2019 at 9:16 am

    There is none so blind as those who don’t WANT to see and none so deaf as those who don’t WANT to hear. Is this apparent ignorance amongst so called Islamic scholars about their own book genuine or deliberate?If it is the latter then is it because they CAN”T justify so many violent verses or they are AFRAID to?Every Christian cannot know off by heart everything which is written in the Bible just as every Muslim cannot know everything that is written in the Koran off by heart but one would think that SCHOLARS of both the Bible and the Koran would have more idea than the average believer of what is in their book.

    Also if a Christian wants to give up being a Christian no one is going to bother him.That is his/her business.The same can’t be said of an ordinary Muslim in some Islamic countries and I would say an Islamic scholar would find it difficult to give up his faith even in a country where Muslims are in the minority because he would have to face his community.

    As for Christian converts to Islam. I once met a woman with a strong Welsh accent wearing a black Muslim robe and hijab who was working in a Muslim op shop which by the way didn’t stay open long.Curious I asked her how she could do such a thing.She said as a Methodist” I used to go around with a Bible in my hand when I was young but as I got older I found I was empty in here”” and she pointed to her heart.I replied ”well you couldn’t have loved Jesus and your neighbours enough”” She had swallowed all that garbage about Jesus being only a prophet She looked at me aghast as she had obviously forgotten that God is Love and that simple phrase is the essence of Christianity.She only wanted meaningless ritual.

  22. Marigold says

    Feb 4, 2019 at 9:24 am

    By the way Robert you are spot on about Australian journalists ! I would add that they wouldn’t have the WISDOM to ask the right questions.

  23. Jack says

    Feb 5, 2019 at 12:37 am

    Why does Australia have a grand mufti. Would Saudi Arabia ever have a Pope.

    • gravenimage says

      Feb 5, 2019 at 12:45 am

      Good point.

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