France’s Minister of Justice Nicole Belloubet “has announced that the government will intervene should French Islamic State members be sentenced to death in Iraq for their activities.”
Islamic State jihadis are at war with the West and pose a grave danger to innocent people. Far too many leaders prioritize their rights over the rights and safety of citizens that they have a duty to protect. Yet Islamic State jihadists will in most cases continue their jihad in Western countries once they’re allowed back in.
This should be obvious. And it is in Iraq, if not in France or Britain. Back in July, Abdul Sattar Beraqdar, a spokesman for Iraq’s Supreme Judicial Council, “said British members of ISIS deserve to die” and stated that “the punishment, as much as it seems strong, will affect the security of your country….I am sure there are hundreds of people in Britain at this moment thinking of committing similar crimes…. That’s why we, as Iraqis, if we are tough in sentencing these people.”
Belloubet thinks she knows better than Beraqdar about the Islamic State and the power of its indoctrination.
“France Will Intervene if ISIS Fighter Citizens Sentenced to Death in Iraq,” by Chris Tomlinson, Breitbart, February 28, 2019:
France’s Minister of Justice has announced that the government will intervene should French Islamic State members be sentenced to death in Iraq for their activities.
Thirteen French Islamic State fighters face trial in Iraq after being captured in Syria and under Iraqi law, the penalty for anyone caught providing material aid to Islamic State or other extremist organisations is death, Le Parisien reports.
Justice Minister Nicole Belloubet said that the French would allow the Iraqis to judge the foreign fighters but would insist on imposing a limit which would not allow the use of the death penalty.
” There are French adults who have knowingly gone on the battlefield, it is not illogical that they are responsible for their actions where they committed them,” Belloubet said.
“We are on the one hand ensuring that the rights of defence are ensured and on the other hand the French who are entitled to consular protection. We, therefore, will ensure the minimum of respect for the right to a fair trial,” she added.
The upcoming trials are just the latest of foreign fighters from Europe. Last year, the Iraqi courts sentenced French national Melina Boughedir to life in prison for being a member of Islamic State.
During the trial, the 27-year-old’s lawyers complained that the French government had worked proactively to stop her and other jihadists from returning to France.
Earlier this month, authorities revealed that France could be looking at hundreds of possible returning Islamic State members with the state services estimating there could be as many as 300 men, 300 women, and 500 children waiting to be repatriated…..
mortimer says
I am a former abolitionist in the matter of the death penalty. Jihadists made me change my mind. They love death. They seek death. The Muslim Brotherhood five-part motto says: “Allah is our objective; the Qur’an is the Constitution; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; DEATH for the sake of Allah is our wish.”
Let them have what they wish. Jihadists are genocidal serial killers. They are the worst of all criminals.
Kilfincelt says
The Minister of France is either very stupid or clinically insane. You don’t allow murderers back into your country. Iraqis should judge these ISIS members and be allowed to follow their law.
Frank Anderson says
In this situation I agree that local law (which includes UN law) should be followed.
In some other situations, for example the laws punishing totally non-violent religious education and information activities with as much as a death sentence, violate the UN human rights rules that apply to all member countries. From my reading, which is always subject to better information, UN rules do not prevent a country from dealing with internal violence. It seems the French have for a long time made themselves the world’s arbiter of justice. As there seems to be an ample supply of problems in France, maybe this is a good time to remember that a person who engages in unlawful combat becomes an enemy of all mankind without citizenship or rights.
I would not hesitate to charge any French official with aiding unlawful combat by interfering with another country’s legal process against illegal combatants. That would be fun to watch. Perhaps an Iraqi jail or firing squad would see an increase in business. My opinion.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
“I would not hesitate to charge any French official with aiding unlawful combat by interfering with another country’s legal process against illegal combatants. That would be fun to watch. Perhaps an Iraqi jail or firing squad would see an increase in business. My opinion.”
I understood our government is most concerned by the fact there are women and children, but they do not want the jihadists back to France.
À bientôt.
Frank Anderson says
Lav, I treasure and enjoy our slow motion conversation. I cannot think of a better way to keep the bad people out of France than letting Iraq deal with them in the only terms they understand. Whether or not I am correct in my understanding of applicable law, I would not be afraid to argue my case. Having tried and won a number of previously undecided (novel) issues, victories are possible with good research, preparation and writing.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
No doubt these men and some women are dangerous, but there are kids with them. The death penalty has been abolished in France, but we still have a debate about it.
The crimes have been committed in Mesopotamia/Syria, our government acknowledged that Iraqi Court of Justice has the power to decide these cases, but French government hope death penalties will be turned into life in prison.
Amitiés
Frank Anderson says
Lav, the last Fox News program hosted by E.D.Hill was Terror in its Own Words. In that program “palestinian” children 3 years old were dressed as suicide bombers by their parents. In Vietnam, 5 year old’s were given hand grenades with the pins pulled and told to go to check points and yell, “Play ball”. Look at how many clearly adult people have fooled countries into accepting them as children. Look also at the reports of ISIS and other jihad groups training children to murder adults. Considering that my official adopted father taught me how to shoot military qualified weapons when I was 4, well over 60 years ago, I take no comfort that alleged children may be involved. Todays children can kill you now or at any time in the future.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
French government cannot, or is not in position to, override the International laws and child rights https://www.child-soldiers.org/international-laws-and-child-rights.
As far I am concern the Council for Human Rights of the United Nations should recognize that the totalitarian Islamic ideology contravenes International law and child rights. I am particularly thinking of Qur’an, islamic law or sharia.
Amitiès
Frank Anderson says
Lav. . . , There is some reason to think of the UN as it was a long time ago and as it is now. In a number of issues the UN today is simply a place where muslims go to spread islam and conquer infidels. Islam is wrongly considered a legally defined and protected religion when in fact it is a criminal conspiracy to kill, conquer and enslave, and has been without interruption for 1400 years. Look at the many places, particularly in Africa, where I believe, among others, French soldiers confront child soldiers who are kidnapped, brainwashed, trained to kill and used in combat.
Recalling that Hitler Youth were rabid Nazis, ready to see their parents killed for non-conformity, the long established idea of “start them young” means that once a “child” has this death training, it becomes a monster for life. Just changing scenery and environment does not change the child’s mind. I can think of a number of interviews on TV where Hitler Youth in their 60’s, 70’s and 80’s were still good and dangerous Nazis praising Hitler and his evil. There is no pleasure in my observation that a child can be every bit as dangerous as an adult, especially when we find it so difficult to confront the truth of the situation.
What would either of us do if we were at a checkpoint in 1969 Vietnam and a 5 year old ran up with a grenade yelling “Play Ball”? How would we handle that? How would we feel if we survived? I don’t think the situation now is different. Look at the ISIS videos of children slitting men’s throats and shooting men in combat training. There is no obvious, pleasant answer to a miserable problem.
Peace and best wishes to you.
gravenimage says
Good exchange, Frank and Lavéritétriomphera.
Peter Buckley says
“Justice Minister Nicole Belloubet said that the French would allow the Iraqis to judge the foreign fighters but would insist on imposing a limit which would not allow the use of the death penalty.”
Excellent. All this will simply drive the average French voter away from Macron into the grateful arms of Le Pen. As the collapse of Islam continues, so the revival of the Nation State in Europe grows ever closer….
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-polls-far-right-marine-le-pen-ahead-macron-rise-europe-en-marche-eu-elections-a8616776.html
Anne says
Hard to believe and disgusting! Does France have a habit of rescuing French murderers, rapists, torturers and drug dealers when sentenced abroad? So ISIS could even kill French citizens abroad and France would rescue them from capital punishment? The farce here is that Iraq is known for freeing prisoners on the sly after awhile in return for fat bribes so lengthy jail terms there are meaningless.
Furthermore, ISIS brides are known for beating, starving and abusing their non-Muslim adult slaves and slave children and should also be tried. Let the French state or French families spend the time and effort to secure, repatriate and DEPROGRAM the children of such evil traitors to France.
Anna says
Nicole Belloubet est une idiote et tres dangereuse.
Lavéritétriomphera says
Elle obéit aux ordres, si elle n’est pas d’accord, elle peut toujours démissionner.
Lavéritétriomphera says
Elle obéit aux ordres, si elle n’est pas d’accord elle peut toujours démissionner.
elee says
Applause for Anna and for Mortimer.
European pagan says
Same punishment for all jihadists -> death
Ernie says
+1
Dapto says
“returning Islamic State members with the state services estimating there could be as many as 300 men, 300 women, and 500 children waiting to be repatriated…” What’s this repatriation France is talking about are the Hero’s or something?.
elee says
If they don’t have any trees in Iraq I’ll send them timbers for her gallows. France should atone not only for harboring this vermin but also for allowing it outside the country. That’s what we do when vermin from one household overruns a neighbour’s house
Fritz says
Obviously, the useful idiots of French politics consider IS to be useful idiots.
Lavéritétriomphera says
These children did not have the right to choose, so what do we do? This is the question that the French government have raised.
You are right when you say it is easier to wash a child’s brain. Children must learn how to think and emotional control https://www.additudemag.com/emotional-control-for-kids/, but when they are teenagers or adults, they can put into question what they have been taught. And it is possible only If they permit themselves/have ability, to think for themselves. For that reason dictators terrorize population because fear affects logical reasoning.
I agree with you UN is not credible.
Peace on you and best wishes from France,
Amitiès.
Frank Anderson says
Lav, I have been in a number of situations where I was not afforded the opportunity to choose, much less any right. There are so many stories from as long as stories have been recorded how characters will most likely follow their established character, (“a snake will always be a snake no matter how kindly it is treated”), Each person has the right to risk his own death, but not to risk the murder of others, in making decisions.
I KNEW a Vietnam veteran, who flew 473 combat missions in 10 months, who knew GI’s who had to face 5 year old’s with hand grenades.
I believe and suggest from all of my reading that we have the same duty to ourselves as we do for others, to protect our lives. We are useless and serve no good purpose by dying, or allowing ourselves to be killed out of our surrender to evil, indecision and pacifism.
I cannot think of any harder or more disturbing issues that we must confront if we wish to live in freedom. This is not likely to end in our lifetime. And how should we be remembered if we fail to confront these questions?
Lavéritétriomphera says
Erratum,
My comment is an answer to my freind Frank Anderson
Anne Smith says
Why should France interfere with another country imposing its legal code on offenders?
These people committed their (pretty horrible) offences in Iraq and in that area and they should receive the due punishment of that country.
Nothing to do with France.
Frank Anderson says
Ms. Smith, in general as long as a country is enforcing rights and duties that are generally accepted it should be left alone. But in the case of Nazi Germany, laws were being enforced that rendered Jews devoid of any rights and subjected them to industrial murder involving hundreds of thousands of Germans in their extermination. Did any country outside of Germany take any interest in halting the German enforcement of its law. The death camps were well known by Allied recon, and deliberately not targeted, as were the rail connections.
Today many countries enforce death penalties or long brutal prison sentences for speaking of a different religious view, possibly of the “same” basic religion as practiced locally. Very few legal rules do not have or deserve to have exceptions.
In the case of terrorists, it has been the law for many centuries to hold pirates on the high seas as enemies of all mankind, without rights, who may be executed upon “arrest” without trial or appeal. My opinion and contention is that a terrorist is nothing more than a pirate on land or in the air, deserving of the same automatic condemnation as any other pirate. Waging war on all mankind automatically revokes any claim to citizenship of any country, and has for centuries.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
We have the absolute right to defend ourselves, but the case is in the hands of Iraqi and French officials. I wouldn’t like to be in their shoes.
Macron has significant work to do besides this dramatic case https://www.france24.com/en/20190302-yellow-vests-protest-france-act-16-paris-gilets-jaunes.
Amitié
Frank Anderson says
Lav, many years ago a friend made an important point about self-defense: It is not only a basic right of citizenship; it is also a DUTY. We cannot consider ourselves any less important than are others. We are useless and in fact a burden when we are dead or injured. Societies which are today making self defense a crime have broken what I am sure originated with a French writer as the “social contract”. No society can be everywhere all the time to protect an individual from all criminal conduct. But it appears in many countries anyone who acts in his own defense will be prosecuted and imprisoned instead of being allowed to proceed with his life. Governments wish to be perceived as “all powerful” by these absurd rules when they are not. They also pretend to be “all wise” when they are really stupid. I cannot forget the Michael York movie Logan’s Run as my perfect illustration of the lying hypocritical absurd socialist state. Totalitarian goals are not exclusively connected with islam, which is why totalitarians of all stripes and labels find it so easy to come together against those who support liberty and personal responsibility. I hope for a better day in our lifetime.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
I have to agree with you: it’s a duty to defend our rights but let’s not confuse defending our values and way of life with vengeance, settling of accounts, crime of dirty faces, adoration of the “wrong” Gods and so on.
There is always a downside, and as you certainly know weapons risk to fall into the wrong hands https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/13/us-gun-deaths-levels-cdc-2017.
Cross our fingers and I hope for a better day ni our lifetime too.
Amitiès,
Kévin
Frank Anderson says
Lav, Kevin, Friend, I treasure all that I learned in over 20 years of Jewish company. One of the lessons that strikes home in our discussion comes from the First Mitzvah. Over a thousand years ago (subject to my error) a Rabbi who is call Maimonides counted and ranked 613 Mitzvot (plural of Mitzvah) from the Torah (First five books in the Bible). The First Mitzvah in rank is that “All rules bend as necessary for the preservation of life.” When any issue comes down to placing “my” (yours, mine, ours, their) life in clear danger, we have a duty to proceed with great care and caution.
Defending our lives, instead of staking claim on more difficult to describe rights (which may be easier for others to dispute), is so clear and basic that no reasonable person should admit to disputing. But, that is exactly what the people who are actively surrendering and collaborating with evil are doing around the world, including both our countries. Multiculturalism and tolerance of evil depends on placing no value whatever on the concepts of liberty that have taken about 2000 years to get where they were before the current trend of “SUBMISSION” (the very meaning of “islam”) took hold in the last several decades.
I wrote a few paragraphs ago how my official adopted father taught me how to shoot when I was 4 years old. He also taught me how to drive a 1955 Cadillac when I was 5. He had heart disease in the early 1950’s before there were statins, Toprol, or other modern pills, and when bypass surgery was a 50-50 chance of dying on the operating table. Also at 5 years old he started me in the first grade of a military school that I attended for 12 years, including the 8 after he died. He was certainly not preparing me to be a terrorist, but instead to be a strong and law-abiding citizen who cares about things that are important. He has been a treasured memory for nearly 60 years, which helps keep me on good paths and away from bad people, contrary to what has happened to other children who were trained differently.
I think the subject of weapons is not as simple as “Weapons or No Weapons”. A disarmed person is always a victim of a person with weapons, especially now at my age and health. Bad people will always have weapons and ignore the foolish, misguided, hypocritical actions of those who would deny them, while the deniers are surrounded by armed guards. “If muslims put down their weapons there would be peace; If Israel put down its weapons, there would also be peace after every Jew was murdered.” B. Netanyahu paraphrased. When the leaders of the EU who rabidly deny their citizens (subjects) the right of self-defense also deny themselves their armed guards then the rules will change back to the basic right of civilization encouraging self-defense. Fortunately where I live in the US, that right and DUTY is strongly recognized. We have room for more who wish to share that view.
We can help better days happen.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
I do not want to question the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution but do not forget Columbine high school massacre. As long we have the same Judeo-Christian roots we all believe life is sacred, but American civilization is very different from European culture.
Europeans are still traumatized by wars and concentration camps, and weapons are forbidden in France. So even simulated weapons were forbidden at home, my plastic sword had been confiscated and I was taught to obey the laws of the republic, serve the nation … and to not eat much (excessively).
I agree with you the sheep’s fate is to be shorn and to go directly for slaughter. Ans I think the policy of burying one’s head in the sand is not the right strategy to follow.
I agree with you we need to teach our children that we can help better days happen.
Amitiés
Frank Anderson says
Lav, Massacres happen whenever the victims are unarmed. Remember the massacre that was prevented in Texas where the FBI knew about the attack but did not pass any warning to Spencer and Geller, but local armed security stopped the attackers. Unarmed people are helpless victims, NAME any successful attack where the victims were armed. ONE massacre does not excuse the thousands of times personal weapons have prevented or stopped attacks. The National Rifle Association reports every month how people with weapons have saved their lives from armed attackers. Police cannot be everywhere all the time. Unarmed police are shown by French experience to be utterly useless and a total waste of money. All they are good for is to make targets of themselves, take pictures, pick up bodies and preen for the cameras.
ALL life is not sacred, and never will be. The lives of killers will never be sacred or worthy of any protection so they can continue to threaten or kill those who wish to live in peace. Make up your mind whether you wish to live as an unarmed, powerless inmate of a Holocaust death camp, waiting for murder, or as a free man in charge of protecting your life, liberty and property. Totalitarians wish to make the entire world one large death camp. Until that goal is appreciated, “Resistance is futile.” I hope you think about this.
Frank Anderson says
Lav, Additional thought which occurred while playing in my machine shop: In general, life is indeed sacred, worthy of highest respect and veneration. Life also involves decisions, including when it should be protected and when it should be surrendered. To blindly hold ALL life sacred, including those who would take or enslave it, is also to AUTOMATICALLY, (in lawyer language IPSO FACTO) conclude that NO life is worth defending.
As we have been taught under Judeo-Christian teaching for about 3,700 years that we are “our brothers’ keeper” should we value the life of a person who would kill our brother equally with our brother and allow our brother’s murder? As we are also taught in one single sentence to love ourselves as we love our neighbor, do we not also have a duty to protect our own lives?
The duty of self defense and defense of others has been heavily involved all my adult life. I hope you never have to face the decision for yourself. Always in friendship and respect.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
I may not have expressed myself very well.
French police is armed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_(France)
Many French love hunting https://theculturetrip.com/europe/france/paris/articles/the-french-love-affair-with-hunting/.
French citizens can own a category B weapon under certain conditions, but illegal weapons are widespread in the country https://www.thelocal.fr/20171004/five-things-to-know-about-guns-in-france.
Please do not misunderstand me: Life is sacred does not mean we must not defend ourselves.
I simply meant we have no right to commit suicide or murder.
Amitiés
Frank Anderson says
Lav, there was frequent mention of unarmed French police following the killing of 130 people in Paris. The issue of one person deciding to end his life is the most personal of all. While others may regret the decision, a person sooner or later can say enough. Even in the death camps an inmate could commit suicide at any time just by stepping over a wire about 3 meters (10 feet) from the fence. (Viktor Frankl, Man’s Search for Meaning). I have several friends and family members who have decided to end their lives, to my great loss and sadness; but I feel I must respect their decision and move on.
Self-defense is not murder, or even a crime, in the US. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, with malice aforethought, without justification, mitigation or excuse, from a bar exam preparation course summary. Self-defense is lawful in most of the US, and getting more so in jurisdictions where it is weakly supported. Self-defense demands the necessary tools for any hope of success. A 70 year old man with heart disease, surgical repairs to skeletal members, and a host of other problems is no match for a 20 year old without a weapon. It appears self defense is a crime in much of the world now.
The difference I suggest between a Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and a totalitarian rule arbitrarily deciding who may or may not be armed is who gets to live. Will an ordinary person have the same rights to live, in all that living means, as the rich, powerful and influential who can get the armed guards and permits? Compare the massive routine violence in Chicago, with some of the most invasive and comprehensive gun control laws in the US, with other cities in the South, where anyone who is clear of certain convictions can lawfully purchase, own, carry and use firearms. In my county about 10 percent of all persons over the age of 21 are licensed to carry concealed firearms, and many more have legal firearms at home that do not require permits. Much quieter than Chicago.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
One of my best friends is a chief of superintendent, he has more qualifications than I do to provide with information on French legislation on the carrying of weapons and the activities of French private security companies. He confirmed French police is armed. He has family in USA, and he agrees like myself with French law. American are culturally different from us and Europeans in general. French probably invented tournament https://www.britannica.com/sports/tournament-medieval-military-games, and we are aggressive enough, therefore it is useless to add more of it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9EoT5orLEw,
“The issue of one person deciding to end his life is the most personal of all” Frank, I treated people, and I have heard this rhetoric before, obviously I had/will never advise anyone to end his life. Life is sacred, I am not a lawyer and as far as possible I treated/treat everyone in the needed of care. There is always a solution, sometime we just have to change our way of life, drink more water, do some exercise (under medical control), monitor our diet (under medical control) and remedy vitamin D insufficiency, to feel a lot better.
I have my opinion on euthanasia.
Amitiès
Frank Anderson says
Lav, when one is overcome by pain at old age, where every organ is failing and there is no real possibility of getting better, that person’s decision does not mean I am, or was, happy to suffer his loss. I have another friend who ended his life without giving me any sign or chance to help. I still think of him every time I see a two-door car and his objection to them. I have yet another friend who called me before he tried, and is still living today, almost 20 years later. WE WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE that life is almost always the best choice and both of us would do anything IN OUR POWER to help. Sadly, there are some things beyond our power which must be turned over to God.
It is important to me that I never “bear false witness”. Following the nightclub attack I heard news reports that approximately two thirds of French police at that time were not armed. I hope and assume that has changed.
We struggle with heavy issues in life.
Peace be with US.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
Bonjour,
https://www.thelocal.fr/20180911/all-police-in-france-should-carry-guns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country
I am a Pythagorean and platonic sympathizer, that does not mean I agree with the entire Pythagorean and Platonic philosophies.
I desagree with therapeutic obstinacy and let’s face it, we all know we are going to die someday, and when the time comes nature must take it’s course, let the angel of death do his job.
French response to euthanasia : https://www.ethox.ox.ac.uk/news/the-2018french-exception2019-the-right-to-continuous-deep-sedation-at-the-end-of-life.
We must defeat those who want war, and I hope peace will be with all of us.
À bientôt
Frank Anderson says
I have already been legally dead once for about 2 hours during surgery and very near death a week later. I assumed that I would not survive and took all necessary steps to deal with the decisions when I could not. I beg your pardon that I am not familiar with Pythagoras and Plato’s views; but with my respect of your thoughts, they must be worthy. I will always be honored that I helped a friend live, and sad for the friends I could not. There are still good things for US to do! Custer’s Last Stand is not a good example to follow. I wrote about it and Roarke’s Drift in my paper When to Keep Silent.
gravenimage says
Another interesting exchange. Thank you.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
I agree with JFK: “Ask not what your country can do for you – ask what you can do for your country,”.
I believe that everything has already been said, I agree with Socrates Plato Aristotle and the Christian scriptures: We are not allowed to choose the hour of our death, we cannot desert from Earth on our own initiative. Socrates did not chose the time of his death, he was executed. This is my opinion.
Amitiés
Frank Anderson says
I fully respect your opinion which is shared by many others. Like most rules and laws, there are exceptions that must be considered.
I suggest that the JFK quote is in error, and is entirely too simplistic, because it fails to recognize what lawyers call “mutuality of contract” where the parties are expected to benefit and suffer equally as a result of the bargain. Just as the individual should serve the club/community/collective/country so also should the community serve and respect the individual.
Hitler would be proud of a one-way commitment, and made that clear with the oath forced on his soldiers to blindly obey and die on the orders of their “superiors”. Where was any corresponding duty to the individual recognized? NONE-they were just trash to be thrown away and sacrificed without care. Look at the hundreds of thousands of soldiers killed because of “no retreat” orders. To accept Hitler’s oath, one must have a self-image lower than a worm.
We are seeing today, including where you are, the national leadership FORCING individuals to expose themselves to daily and pervasive life threatening danger without any corresponding effort to protect them.
Rephrasing JFK “Ask what you and your country can do for the mutual benefit of each other.” We owe a duty of mutual regard and respect or there should be no duty at all. I have withdrawn from a number of organizations and other situations for failure of mutual respect, and find that my situation has improved with each new opportunity. I suggest reading the Declaration of Independence, written by Brother Masons, adopted by Brother Masons, and enforced by Brother Masons when a leadership failed in its obligation to the people. Always with respect and appreciation to you.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
Salut Ami,
We must not fight the wrong battle, JFK was not a dictator and the Americans have not been confronted with the nazi system in their native sole.
In our European mind USA was, and we hope still is, a land of freedom.
USA accepted our gift: Artemis statue, the Greek freedom goddess.
And you are right when you say we can help better days happen.
Tout mon respect
Frank Anderson says
Lav. . ., JFK did not have the opportunity to be a dictator. The statement we are discussing was poorly thought through before it was made and is more appropriate for a dictator than a President. Independence was declared from a king who lost sight of “mutuality of contract” with the governed. Especially in countries where totalitarian collaborators are taking every step to surrender their countries to sharia, losing any excuse of concern for the liberty or safety of kafirs,(nobody’s, untermensch, bums, infidels, US), the Declaration of Independence is worthy of intense review and thought. I think the play and movie 1776 illustrates why it was written to some extent, whether perfectly or not. Just as the declaration is important to the US, it is also important to any who aspire to freedom from oppressive, tyrannical and uncaring governments. Freedom and personal responsibility should not be limited to the US.
If I remember correctly from high school, more than 50 years ago, the social contract either was originated or at least developed by a Frenchman, Jean Jacque Rousseau. I think none of us should feel so worthless individually that we should surrender our lives and liberty to anyone who regards us that way. THEY are not worth us. “You shall love your neighbor AS yourself.” For Liberty For ALL.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
Bonsoir,
You are not the only one to express reserves about JFK.
I remember having read from high school, a text from the 17 or 18 century. It was said any fool could be the king, [the nobles have only made the effort to come to birth!].
There can be no doubt the ideas of Rousseau, Voltaire, Diderot and the thoughts of the English philosopher Locke, amongst others, influenced French Revolution.
But we must not ignore the thinkers in the Middle Ages, such as Marguerite Porete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Porete who paid the ultimate price for the right to freedom of thought.
Our ancestors struggled over centuries, not without suffering, for freedom and democracy, we cannot accept a totalitarian society. Islam as it is, is a totalitarian system.
“Know thyself” Socrates said. If we do not know ourselves we cannot correct, a minimum, our shortcomings and “For Liberty For ALL” is a utopian ideal.
À bientôt
Frank Anderson says
I believe and hope we share a goal that we both know to be ultimately impossible in our lifetime. “it is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.” Liberty must start somewhere in order to triumph anywhere. The logical first candle to light is within ourselves.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
Bonjour,
“it is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.” Lao-Tseu.
This is a great quote, but we will still have to find the BEST SOLUTION. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and without careful attention the cure could be worse than the disease.
Amitiès
Frank Anderson says
When we got our very first television set I was about 2 years old (really early 1950’s) and could still turn it on and change the channel. Every Sunday morning a Catholic program started with the quote. An illustration of the proposition that Wisdom is its own authority regardless of source or location. Thank you for the source.
I spent a major part of my senior year in college studying Closed Loop Control Systems, and in my third trip to higher learning studied Accounting. Both areas pay much attention to comparing actual performance with expected performance to reduce error. If a decision is open-loop, it may or may not achieve the desired result. But by closing the loop and correcting the error, a process can start earlier and achieve the goal. We will be dead or slaves if we wait to find the BEST solution instead of the best available solution.
I agree with the idea that many cures undertaken without real analysis of cost are disasters. Look at open-loop decision processes applied to alternative energy proposals to replace expensive nuclear plants with 3+ times more expensive wind and solar that run about 1/4 as much of the time. Nobody ever discusses what accountants call Total Cost of Owning because it will show all of them to be ultimately ruinous to the national economy. There is no free lunch anywhere. Which of the choices will be least harmful and most successful; and how is the difference explained? (“We will pay 4 times as much to build capacity that runs 1/4th the time because it makes us feel good!”). Particularly in Germany economic and industrial collapse are not far in the future; it is happening now. And the invasion is just part of the burden.
I suggest that starting is important. Where?
Georg says
“French Justice Minister says France will support Islamic State jihadists if they’re sentenced to death in Iraq”
Islamic State members being treated leniently because they titillate a Marxist fetish is the opposite of justice.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
Bonjour,
I do not see how we can find the best solution without experiencing. This old truth is exact: “We learn from our mistakes” and … from our challenges and successes. The major issue is to learn something.
That’s why the Islamic system as it is, will collapse sooner or later. The radical Islamic leaders refuse to accept change. What I learn from Greek philosophy and from Buddhist notion of impermanence, is that Nature gets rid of what becomes obsolete and replaces it by something that is new. Such is the law of nature which affects us all.
À bientôt
Frank Anderson says
Lav. . ., do I understand your word “experiencing” as “trials” or “tests”? I have seen too many people waste all their time looking for a perfect solution before starting any test; but have also seen others assume a perfect solution and go insane with money and opportunity on projects that make no sense at the start.
Islam has been around for 1400 years, killed more or less a Billion people, and oppressed and threatened everyone it has not killed. Too many lifetimes have been wasted to just sit and wait for it to collapse of its own absurdity. I believe we can do better, If we will start. Always peace be with us.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
Bonsoir,
The “middle way” could be the best solution while keeping an eye on our main goal. So we must demand from our western leaders that they acknowledge Islam is a totalitarian system. The Islamic ideology will at some point simply collapse under the weight of its contradictions https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UZXWrDnP6vc, no matter the intellectual contortions of Islamic scholars to make us swallow their claptrap https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Quran.
Amitiès
Frank Anderson says
Lav. . ., when I started law school I spent way too much time reading Frank Herbert’s Dune and every sequel. The story covered a more or less 10,000 year struggle between “religious” factions. The difference, I understand subject to correction, between my 1.8/3 GPA with class rank approximately 110/229 and the top of the class was half a grade point (2.3/3). Who knows how much better I could have done by reading the law books?
I suggest that patience and benign neglect waiting for something beneficial to happen also means tens of millions more dead, billions more enslaved and oppressed, and world progress destroyed under a flood of overpopulation by ignorant brutal followers. The path to solution of problems begins with being dissatisfied with the present, not quite to the level of outrage (so that rational decisions are still possible). But the “other side” is not sitting and waiting for our collapse. They are bent on conquering and killing us today. They appear to be quite successful at the moment. When will we get tired of their progress in enslaving us?
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
Bonsoir,
So what do you propose?
We must not forget totalitarian systems are, by nature, prisons. Now this seems almost inconceivable but many prefer jail rather than liberty. Disconnection with family and society poses a significant risk to anyone, and the initiative to abandon Islam seems to be a veritable obstacle course in Muslim world.
As far I am concern I believe it is important to discredit Islam and Qur’an in order to increase the number of apostates.
Amitiés
Frank Anderson says
Lav. I try to learn from every available source, following the second proposition that inspired me the first time I visited a Jewish congregation” “Wisdom is all around us-in the Torah and everywhere else. The challenge is to hear the Wisdom, distinguish it from error and deception that always comes with wisdom when in human hands; and put it to work in our lives.”
I recall that there may be several places in the Bible where it is written that there are times when we must declare our freedom from the control of others who are not guiding us correctly. Having been disconnected from many people and places, sometime by force and sometime by choice, adaptive skill is developed. There is a book Time Storm that illustrates the concept.
Your suggestion is certainly one of the better ideas. For every person out, that is one out and one in. Those who leave understand why they leave and are in a good position to help others leave. For every one who is presently uninformed or undecided, a gain is still a gain for liberty. My accounting is speaking with that analysis. We should not waste time or resources when too much is going the wrong way now.
Frank Anderson says
Lav. . ., additional thought: One of many great sermons I heard in a Presbyterian church dealt with spreading the good news of the Gospels throughout the world, “starting in Jerusalem”. (Matthew?) The preacher suggested that Jerusalem (being as much a state of mind as a place) should be taken in meaning from this instruction to be “within ourselves.”
I remember how utterly uninformed and totally ignorant I was about islam until I was confronted by people who knew more than I. Once I started reading for myself, MANY, MANY, varied sources and authors, I started to see more than a feeling but an understanding. While I am far from being as well-informed as many who write here, I am far better informed and motivated to learn more so that I can help others get started. Too many people just don’t know what they don’t know. Getting them dissatisfied and disturbed enough to make the effort to learn is, I think, our challenge.
Lavéritétriomphera says
Frank Anderson,
Bonsoir,
“Too many people just don’t know what they don’t know” Very true, but leaders of totalitarian systems have a stake in keeping people in ignorance. A Muslim is not aloud to question Qur’an http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=101.
In short if a Muslim believes no longer in Qur’an and Islam, that is because Satan have sown doubts in his mind, he is suffering from waswas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjGdrg7nwNY. That is how the Islamic leaders have inculcated in Muslims fear of thinking for oneself.
Amitiés
Frank Anderson says
Lav. . ., I think we agree. Ignorance can be bliss because it allows the escape of confronting reality.
I mention Viktor Frankl’s “delusion of reprieve” so frequently because of the number of situations where it applies.
Your command of English is far, far better than any excuse of French I can understand. Please if you have not already read it, take a look at Bill Warner’s Abridged Koran in English. I doubt, but do not know, that is has been translated to French or other languages; but it should be for all non-muslims. The advantage I see in his work is its concentration and superior organization compared to the “standard version”.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Frank Anderson,
Bonjour,
What I have learned from Qur’an is that this book seems to be a bad copy, with less poesy, of the bible. After reading that men are allowed to beat their wives, and that Muslims are authorized to slaughter their enemies, I closed the book and that is it.
I believe without brainwashing a kid would understand that something is wrong in Qur’an.
I won’t be available for a couple of days, but I think we have exhausted the subject.
Looking forward to reading you.
Amitiès
Frank Anderson says
Lav, you are missed when absent. There will almost certainly be more subjects. We continue. . .