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Jihad Watch

Exposing the role that Islamic jihad theology and ideology play in the modern global conflicts

British Activist Sentenced for Denying Existence of Moderate Islam

May 3, 2019 2:00 pm By Daniel Greenfield

No one is put on trial for negative comments about Christianity or Judaism. This unhealthy exception stigmatizes political speech and suppresses criticism of one religion.

Robert Spencer had previously blogged about the Fransen case. This is what he wrote.

What they were really doing was calling attention to Muslim rape gangs, which have operated freely in Britain for years because police and other authorities were too afraid of being called “racist” to do anything about them. But that’s “hostility” to Islam and Muslims, and so Fransen and Golding must be imprisoned.

Now the inevitable sentence is in.

Jayda Fransen, 33, was found guilty of stirring up hatred during a speech about Islam in August 2017.

She was also convicted for separate comments at a peace wall in the city.

Convicting Fransen, of Moat Avenue in Donaghadee, County Down, a judge said her words were “a general, vehement attack against a religious group”.

The speech was made during the “Northern Ireland Against Terrorism” event two years ago.

What did Jayda actually say?

The court heard that Fransen told those gathered at the rally that there was no moderate version of Islam and that “these people are baying for our blood”.

She added: “Islam says every single one of you wonderful people here today deserves to be killed.”

Those attending the rally were then told it was time for the world to come together against “the one common enemy”.

The judge told the court: “I’m satisfied these words were intended to stir up hatred and arouse fear.”

Which of these comments are factually untrue?

The Koran does command the deaths of infidels. The non-existence of moderate Islam is a point asserted by countless Muslim and non-Muslim leaders. Like Erdogan.

“There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it,” Turkey’s Islamic leader has said.

Will the court send him to jail for denying the existence of moderate Islam?

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Comments

  1. Jaladhi says

    May 3, 2019 at 4:59 pm

    OMG, if this is not 1984 or what!! And this is in the land of the author of 1984! He must have known the British politicians/MSM/judges.. very well!

    • CRUSADER says

      May 3, 2019 at 5:39 pm

      Orwell speaks to us in our time.

      Shakespeare spoke to us from his time.

      “Come, come, you wasp; i’ faith, you are too angry.
      Katherine: If I be waspish, best beware my sting.
      Petruchio: My remedy is then, to pluck it out.
      Katherine: Ay, if the fool could find where it lies.
      Petruchio: Who knows not where a wasp does wear his sting? In his tail.
      Katherine: In his tongue.
      Petruchio: Whose tongue?
      Katherine: Yours, if you talk of tails: and so farewell.
      Petruchio: What, with my tongue in your tail? Nay, come again, Good Kate; I am a gentleman.”

      ― William Shakespeare,
      “The Taming of the Shrew”

      (notice the psychopathic Petruchio feigns as a victim!)

      • revereridesagain says

        May 3, 2019 at 10:44 pm

        Straight out of Glazov’s “Jihadist Psychopath” as a general example of the type!

      • Victoria says

        May 4, 2019 at 12:47 am

        One way to call attention to rape gangs is to take the next two gangs out to the public square and shoot them dead. Where are all the women who should be demonstrating at the government offices. Where are all the so called men who should be demonstrating right along side them?

        • Geof Barrington says

          May 4, 2019 at 10:16 pm

          Agreed 100 % Victoria that is the correct response

    • James Lincoln says

      May 3, 2019 at 6:14 pm

      Jaladhi says

      “OMG, if this is not 1984 or what!! ”

      We are now living in Orwell’s “1984””…

      Interestingly, I just recently finished watching the original movie “1984” that was released in 1956. It is available for free on Dailymotion. Absolutely frightening – and it was meant to be pure fiction.

      I remember reading the book after seeing the play in 1971. At the time, I found it to be “interesting” science fiction.

      I NEVER thought that much of it would become true… particularly in the UK…

      Reply

      • deb says

        May 4, 2019 at 12:22 pm

        I just re-watched it myself last month. When I was in high school they had us read it and watch it. We had to get parent’s signatures to watch it because of the nudity. It was an important lesson and still is, but times have changed. I think it would be hard to get the younger ones to watch it because of the year made, but it would be good to have a remake of it, showing what is going on now.

    • David, Thailand says

      May 4, 2019 at 7:13 am

      Orwell wrote 1984 as a caution, not as a manual.

      • James Lincoln says

        May 4, 2019 at 7:52 am

        Well put, David.

  2. Jaladhi says

    May 3, 2019 at 5:03 pm

    >“There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it,” Turkey’s Islamic leader has said.<

    If he ever shows up in Britain the authorities will arrest him and send him to jail! LOL…

    • Dry Academy says

      May 3, 2019 at 5:37 pm

      They would probably throw a lavish halal dinner party for Erdogan, and then take selfies with him.

      • Jaladhi says

        May 3, 2019 at 8:07 pm

        LOL………….

        • elee says

          May 4, 2019 at 12:15 pm

          Jaladhi you tracked my thinking exactly, Erdogan sprung to mind immediately. Just another instance where the very same words about the very same topic constitute hatespeech if an Islamophobe says them and an acknowledgment of fact if a Muslim says them. And as so often happens……..till you read the next line you can’t tell who it is that’s getting quoted. And for this she goes to jail……excuse me, gaol.

    • gravenimage says

      May 4, 2019 at 1:43 pm

      Good point, Jaladhi.

  3. screwliberalism says

    May 3, 2019 at 5:24 pm

    That judge has NO business “judging,” because the very *foundation* of righteous judgement is WISDOM and DISCERNMENT, and it is obvious that this judge has neither! 🙄😡😡😡

    • Westman says

      May 3, 2019 at 10:27 pm

      Imagine, if you will, 20 years from now and it is obvious to every unbeliever that the judge convicted a person(and others) in 2019 for saying the truth. What will be the options for the judge when looking into his mirror – self hatred, guilt, repentance, repudiation of the sentence, renunciation by the public, dismissal? Who would want to be that judge?

      • revereridesagain says

        May 3, 2019 at 10:45 pm

        In the mirror: Cowardice.

      • Davegreybeard says

        May 3, 2019 at 11:34 pm

        People like The “Judge” NEVER look in the mirror or question themselves. They are much to important for any self reflection to occur, regardless of the devastation that they cause.

        We have many of this type in our very own Democrat party.

        • Westman says

          May 4, 2019 at 3:52 am

          It is when it impacts their own life or that of their family that reflection occurs. The behavior may not change but they come to the realization of what they are and hate the person in the glass. That is the real Hell.

        • gravenimage says

          May 4, 2019 at 1:44 pm

          Grimly true.

      • dave says

        May 4, 2019 at 1:47 am

        In the US democratic party, we can put a name to a face. What is the judges name with a photo? Who are the police officers who refuse to do their job?

  4. Jay says

    May 3, 2019 at 5:33 pm

    England is lost!! It is outrageous that speech is censored in this way ! The unfettered invasion of Muslims in England, France, Germany, Spain, Norway, Sweden, etc etc is destroying the soverignity of these countries and costing billions of dollars from their tax paying citizens!! Wake up people before it’s too late!
    PM Churchill is not resting easy today!! God save Europe from complete destruction !
    Stop the insanity!!

    • mortimer says

      May 4, 2019 at 10:25 am

      How does the judge subjectively know another person’s motive? He does not. This is BAD LAW, because the motive of a person who is afraid is self-defense. To assume that self-defense means something more harmful is ASSUMED by the judge.

      To say that I FEAR THE MAFIA is not calling for vigilantes to murder the Mafia.

      This UK law allows police and judges to ASSUME they know what a person is thinking before any physical crime has been committed.

      This law should be called the MIND-READING ACT.

      • gravenimage says

        May 4, 2019 at 3:00 pm

        Good points.

  5. CRUSADER says

    May 3, 2019 at 5:34 pm

    Clamp down on the bravest females in society. Way to go!

    RIDICULOUS

    TRAGIC

    • Jaladhi says

      May 3, 2019 at 5:59 pm

      British politicians and judges are learning misogyny from their Islamic friends!

    • elee says

      May 4, 2019 at 12:18 pm

      Chickenshit, ain’t it?

  6. RonaldB says

    May 3, 2019 at 6:31 pm

    I’m subscribed to Jayda Fransen’s website, https://www.jaydafransen.online/ and her experiences are even more horrific than described here.

    I would dispute some of what Greenfield says: for instance, not all non-Muslims deserve death; only those who do not submit themselves to the authority of Islam. Similarly, there are arguably some moderate Muslims, such as the Ismailis or Ahmadiyyas. Notice I always say “arguably”. These points are disputable. But in the soft totalitarian countries of West Europe, Britain notably, there is no dispute. There is only the iron fist of oppression and punishment for speaking out. They are ruled by a mediocre class of bureaucrats who do not find at all appealing the idea of defending their rules and policies in open debate.

    • CRUSADER says

      May 3, 2019 at 7:06 pm

      Interesting.

    • gravenimage says

      May 3, 2019 at 7:44 pm

      Good post, Ronald, and thanks for the link.

      One thing, though–while the Ahmadis don’t believe in violent Jihad to attain it, they still believe in imposing brutal Shari’ah law–including the submission of Infidels to Islam.

      • terry sullivan says

        May 4, 2019 at 3:39 am

        the ahmadis follow the koran?

        • KWJ says

          May 4, 2019 at 7:47 am

          alislam.org is an Ahmaddiyya website. They have a good Qur’an with commentary and the translations aren’t different than the typical ones.

          Saying Ahmadiyyah are “moderate” is a misrepresentation as can be the word “moderate.” They believe in “jihad of the pen” they say. In their About they say they are about separation of mosque and state (headquarters in Britain) but they’re not really because they advance a socialist Islamic view and universal morality as the Qur’an dictates.

          They still believe only Islam will prevail when their messiah comes because, as their video notes, different religions have their own messiahs who would say different things.

          There are only lax Muslims but even millions of lax Muslims will still say they believe in Allah’s law and approve of sharia law despite their laxity in some respects, and then they may vote for Muslims who are more pious.

          They are far outnumbered by Sunnis anyway and an Ahmadi couldn’t get elected against Mayor Khan and was called “not Muslim enough.”

          Jihad is jihad and they are proselytizers too. They are as much a political and cultural threat to our current system. Still, their online Qur’an is of high quality with its footnotes of Arabic meanings, historical anecdotes and is user friendly but of course apologetic. I compared their translations to Saudi favorite Mohsin Khan except Kahn’s commentary heavily relies on the ahadith to explain things in the KSA widely disseminated The Noble Qur’an. (Someone noted that is in the prayer room in an Australian airport.)

        • gravenimage says

          May 5, 2019 at 12:20 am

          Good analysis, KWJ.

    • CRUSADER says

      May 3, 2019 at 8:44 pm

      “….some moderate Muslims, such as the Ismailis or Ahmadiyyas….”

      How do these MODERATE Muslims worship? What do they follow?
      Do they excise and expunge parts of ordained Scripture?
      Or, do they simply ignore and conveniently “take from the marketplace of Islam”
      by cherry picking?

      Explain, please. I am curious to know more.

      • mortimer says

        May 3, 2019 at 11:00 pm

        They cherrypick or rather, the cherrypicking has already been done for them by Muslim leaders. They do not think deeply. They are not curious … Allah and Mohammed say curiosity is a bad thing … the mullahs have done all the thinking about Islam. It is written down in boring books written in a language most Muslims cannot even read. They avoid discussions about Islam. They just follow the tail of the sheep ahead. They do as they are told. The mullahs stick to generalities if they are smart … a few mullahs are hot heads.

        Muslim leaders do not tell their congregations most of what Islam teaches … that would be controversial and could produce bad press if word got out that they teach real Islam. They intentionally keep ordinary Muslims uninformed. The mullahs try to stay clear of controversy. They want to keep their jobs and just stay out of trouble until they can collect their pensions. The mullahs all know that Islam is largely bunk. Muslims learn at a young age which subjects are to be avoided. If a Muslim can’t learn to STOP QUESTIONING and TURN OFF PROBING THOUGHTS about the errors in Islam, they know they will be committing a sin and they may even be killed.

        Muslims will often say, ‘I don’t like to talk about that’ or ‘I don’t know’. And then they change the topic. Most Muslims actually know very little about Islamic teachings per se. They want to avoid controversy because it can lead to violence and strife, so they mostly avoid the topic of religion and just practice the regular rituals to keep the family happy.

        Most Muslims know so very little about Islamic texts that they cannot debate or discuss them. Most Muslims consider someone who goes deeply into Islamic texts to be a troublemaker. They are not wrong.

        • Graham says

          May 4, 2019 at 11:43 am

          Thanks for that Mortimer, that’s helpful to know.

        • elee says

          May 4, 2019 at 12:25 pm

          More applause for Mortimer. You identified the sinister oriental shadow that threatens to undo us. Now if you could just cause me to understand how and why this appeals to a billion men and women of whom some must be otherwise intelligent and perceptive……Hannah Arendt and Eric Hoffer have both failed me, I can’t imagine any rational creature thinking 7th-century Arabia was utopia……??????

        • elee says

          May 4, 2019 at 2:17 pm

          And…..on review I should have mentioned…….cherrypicking the scripture in conversation with kafirs is kitman, an authorised form of Muslim lying. Cherrypicking the scriptures in one’s own life is prohibited per K 33:37, 81:30, and 2:217. I guess that means a Muslim who prefers some verses over others is apostate and subject to a lethal fatwah. Again, I believe anyone who wants to force this on me is someone to be feared and hated.

        • Noel says

          May 4, 2019 at 2:25 pm

          elee – the answer is quite simple. 7% of Germans were Nazis and the rest had to play along with the idea and pretend they agreed. The alternative was too horrible.
          In Islam only one male member of the household needs to really believe, the rest have to pretend or lose their life. A man will kill his mother or sister, a husband will kill his wife or daughter, for being not Muslim enough.

        • gravenimage says

          May 4, 2019 at 2:25 pm

          elee, pious Muslims really do want to force us back to dark ages Arabia.

        • thebigW says

          May 4, 2019 at 7:35 pm

          O’l mortimer is making way too many assumptions here in favor of Muslims

        • gravenimage says

          May 4, 2019 at 10:23 pm

          I’m afraid this is true, thebigW.

          After all, there are plenty of Muslims who actually *do* embrace their violent faith–were this not the case, there would not be almost 35,000 Jihad terror attacks just since 9/11.

    • mortimer says

      May 4, 2019 at 10:11 am

      Somewhat disagree with RonaldB about his conclusion that dhimmis have ‘a right to live’. Ann Lambton writes that the origins of jizzya are extremely complex, regarded by some jurists as “compensation paid by non-Muslims for being spared from death” and by others as “compensation for living in Muslim lands.”

      Dhimmis have ‘permission’ to live, as long as they pay an extortion tax (jizzya), and accept daily restrictions and humiliations from Muslims or until they adopt Islam. Over the centuries of authoritarian Islamic rule, many Jews and Christians decided that the punitive dhimmi laws were too much for their families to endure, so they converted to be relieved of those horrible persecutions.

      K.9.29 is the ‘TURNING POINT’ verse where Allah gives permission to ATTACK the kafirs MERELY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE … “Fight those who believe not … until they pay the jizzya”.

      This is extortion pure and simple … “HAND OVER HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS TO ME REGULARLY … or you will REGRET IT.”

      I think the bottom line is that Allah hates “wrong-worshippers” who ascribe partners (the Holy Trinity) to Allah and he wants to exterminate them, but Muslims need their money, so Allah ‘graciously’ keeps them alive to be fleeced and milked by Muslim extortionists.

      The movie Lawrence of Arabia captures the Muslim attitude to mercy perfectly:

      Prince Feisal says: “With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me, it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”

      • elee says

        May 4, 2019 at 12:30 pm

        The dhimmi’s contract of protection can be revoked at any instant, can it not? The dhimmi breathes as a tenant at sufferance; nothing guarantees him that the sufferance should continue from one moment to the next.

      • gravenimage says

        May 4, 2019 at 10:28 pm

        True, Mortimer and elee–even handing over huge amounts of Jizya–or even their own children, as with the terrible Devshirme system in the Ottoman Empire–is often not enough to keep dhimmis safe.

        Just so much as the *rumor* of a Jew or Christian doing something to break the dhimma can lead to Muslims rioting, attacking Churches, shops, and homes, and assaulting and murdering dhimmis.

  7. gravenimage says

    May 3, 2019 at 7:22 pm

    British Activist Sentenced for Denying Existence of Moderate Islam
    ………………………….

    This is *absolute insanity*, and more persecution against Jayda Fransen.

    Not only is she quite correct in what she said–which is most important–but how can this be criminalized speech, in any case?

    If someone said that there is no moderate Christianity or Judaism or any other faith, this should be their absolute right in a free country–which Britain is apparently no longer.

  8. Jedothek says

    May 3, 2019 at 7:38 pm

    O Britain! – where freedom birthed at Runnymede,
    Where parliament, naught dreading,
    King defied and opposed with arms
    Nor quailed at a beheading, –

    Who stood stalwart, unbowed, uncowed
    In the the face of Hitler’s wrath,
    Who bid Wordsworth, Paine and Shelley
    Sing the praise of freedom’s path, –

    Why now, when faced with petty minds
    Whose actions daily bloodier grow,
    Who kill at a prophet’s dead command
    And would muzzle ev’ry foe, –

    Why now fall supine, baring throat,
    Breathe not battle-cry but groan? –
    Why yield by inches that strong keep
    That once as beacon shone?

    Remember, Britain, what you are,
    And what you still can be!
    Arthur and Churchill watch breathless now
    Your fateful deeds to see.

    • gravenimage says

      May 3, 2019 at 7:47 pm

      Fine poem–spot on and very disturbing.

    • CRUSADER says

      May 3, 2019 at 8:47 pm

      Sentiments exactly.

      Put intuitive thoughts to print, so eloquently.

      Capital!!!

      Well done, good poster.

    • elee says

      May 4, 2019 at 12:38 pm

      +1 +1 + +1 +1…………..

  9. David Stephenson says

    May 3, 2019 at 7:41 pm

    I am pretty sure I would be denied entry to the UK now based on simply factual things I have said online.

    Either the people living under this tyranny need to overthrow their tyrants, or they need to leave the tyranny.

    A very sad day in history (again).

  10. Halal Bacon says

    May 3, 2019 at 7:58 pm

    would the judge agree that a little bit of cancer is OK? or that there is a difference between moderate cancer and radical cancer?

    • mortimer says

      May 3, 2019 at 11:07 pm

      Jayda overgeneralized and conflated ideology with people. Her conclusions were fallacious.

      • gravenimage says

        May 4, 2019 at 12:45 am

        Mortimer, there *is* no moderate Islam. How is she wrong?

      • terry sullivan says

        May 4, 2019 at 3:40 am

        crap

      • owensgate says

        May 4, 2019 at 9:28 am

        I think I can speak truthfully if I say there is no imam out there who would say “You can be just a little bit Islamic”, as there is no gynecologist out there who would tell a woman she’s “Just a little bit pregnant”.

  11. David Grisez says

    May 3, 2019 at 8:29 pm

    This shows a major problem in the United Kingdom, that could soon be a problem in the United States. In this case a British citizen is sentenced for the crime of speaking the truth about Islam and warning people about the dangers of Islam to the United Kingdom. As this keeps up soon the United Kingdom will be dead, conquered by Islam and Muslims and turned into an Islamic country with Islamic Sharia Law. We must not let this happen to the United States.

    • tgusa says

      May 4, 2019 at 1:25 am

      90 percent of Americans no matter what they think or believe would be violently opposed to Islamic doctrine. But muslims once entrenched will never give up excepting death. You do realize that we in the USA (and any other semi-occupied country) will have to fight muslims in the same way the US Marines fought the Japanese in the South Pacific during WWII, no prisoners, a wasteland where the fighting occurs. They would not have it any other way. Do you think the USA or the UK can fight and win a war like that today?

      • elee says

        May 4, 2019 at 12:41 pm

        WE SHALL NEVER SURRENDER

      • gravenimage says

        May 5, 2019 at 12:29 am

        I don’t want to in any way minimize the threat Muslims present–but in the US they are still less than 1% of the population. The idea that addressing this would render large parts of America a wasteland does not really make sense.

  12. Barb says

    May 3, 2019 at 8:45 pm

    There needs to be a FREE SPPEECH Jayda Rally all throughout the UK and the world!
    It is WRONG!
    Jayda was not inciting violence, she was telling the TRUTH!

    • CRUSADER says

      May 3, 2019 at 8:56 pm

      And I stand by your free speech in spelling Sppeech as you see fit,
      in retaliation of the darned censors at auto-correct!

      • Barb says

        May 4, 2019 at 6:45 am

        Good on you Crusader – thanks for picking that one up!

  13. IanB says

    May 3, 2019 at 9:34 pm

    The judge told the court: “I’m satisfied these words were intended to stir up hatred and arouse fear.”

    When will this judge, or any other British judge, pass similar judgement on Imams in the UK who regularly preach and stir up REAL hatred and arouse fear in us defenceless infidels?

  14. Hale Hardy says

    May 3, 2019 at 9:38 pm

    Nothing wrong there

  15. mortimer says

    May 3, 2019 at 10:35 pm

    Jayda Fransen should stick to the facts and not overgeneralise or conflate doctrines with Muslim people in general … By conflating ISLAMIC TEACHINGS (which most Muslims do not know or follow) with ordinary Muslims who are ‘moderately’ practicing Islam or practicing it almost not at all … Jayna Fransen set herself up for a somewhat valid criticism, but that should not lead to jail time … just an admission that she was mistaken in overgeneralising. That is her chief error in this matter.

    Opinion surveys show what Muslims think. While less than 1% of Muslims are actual jihadists and 15% of Muslims are in favour of jihad-terror groups, about 35% of Muslims worldwide are more or less non-practicing and are modern in their thinking.

    Yes, codified Islamic teachings were carved in stone in the middle ages and MAY NOT BE REFORMED, but most Muslims do not know those teachings, don’t care to learn them and don’t follow most of them.

    Her generalities would be true if she were talking about ISIS members, but almost no Muslims are part of ISIS nor do they understand ISIS or wish to understand it or wish to learn more about it.

    Most Muslims are sticking to a regimen of prayers and eating practices and they call that small set of behaviours ‘Islam’ … but those prayers and rituals are only a small part of Islam.

    • gravenimage says

      May 3, 2019 at 10:49 pm

      Mortimer, even in the West a majority of Muslims want to see Shari’ah law imposed–the idea that most Muslims are perfectly benign I’m afraid does not hold up.

      • mortimer says

        May 3, 2019 at 11:45 pm

        Answer to GI: it’s useful to check the scientific opinion surveys, rather than guess and overgeneralize. Worldwide, 65% of Muslims want Sharia impose, in Afghanistan that is 99%, in the US a slight majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah. In Afghanistan, about 99% say they want Sharia imposed, but that may be because of an atmosphere of fear. But in France, only 28% want Sharia and 46% of Muslims in France say they are ‘totally secular’.

        Please do not put generalities such as ‘benign’ into my mouth. I look for precision and if you GENERALIZE you will only get erroneous conclusions that are fallacious. Studies come out in various countries every year. At present, 15% of Muslims worldwide support one or more terrorist groups. This group of 15% are definitely not ‘benign’. The other 85% of Muslims have different levels of ‘benign’, but I don’t have statistics and they probably change from week to week. We have no accurate measurement of how many Muslims are apostates, but I think it certainly seems to be about one-third.

        Once again, Muslims in the West are filled with cognitive dissonance and confusion about what they believe. Women’s universal education will lead to a growing dissatisfaction with Sharia and a growing disbelief. Most Muslims who drop out seem to keep their apostasy quiet.

        The polls/surveys are the best measure of what Muslims believe. Guessing and overgeneralizing is unreliable. I don’t guess.

        • terry sullivan says

          May 4, 2019 at 3:42 am

          look up taqiyya?

        • elee says

          May 4, 2019 at 12:55 pm

          Thanks for the polling information. The polls to my thinking are a best little spots of torchlight in a huge unseen dark space. IAre we to guess that these polling results are a reliable predictor? That the Muslims in question answered truthfully? What about questions that didn’t get asked…….like, say, “Would you inform on a jihadi who was planning a large or small genocide”? “Do you have any idea where your contributions to you mosque are going?” Or: “Do you trust that if you tell me you’re apostate, your local imam will never find out?” Or do your polls simply reflect that for Muslims in Muslim countries, some kafirs’ problems are a world away…..oh and the same probably applies to the sleepers who walk among us?

        • elee says

          May 4, 2019 at 12:58 pm

          terry sullivan: also look up kitman, tawriyah and murunu. You didn’t think Allah limited his blessings to one kind of lying, did you? Allah hu akbar.

        • gravenimage says

          May 6, 2019 at 4:48 pm

          Mortimer wrote:

          Answer to GI: it’s useful to check the scientific opinion surveys, rather than guess and overgeneralize.
          ………………………..

          I cite scientific polls all the time, Mortimer. How is this guessing?

          I have cited the Pew polls, then there is this:

          https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx#sharia

          Everywhere, either majorities or very significant minorities of Muslims openly say they want Shari’ah law.

          More:

          Worldwide, 65% of Muslims want Sharia impose, in Afghanistan that is 99%, in the US a slight majority (51%) agreed that “Muslims in America should have the choice of being governed according to shariah.
          ………………………..

          This is actually very alarming.

          More:

          In Afghanistan, about 99% say they want Sharia imposed, but that may be because of an atmosphere of fear. But in France, only 28% want Sharia and 46% of Muslims in France say they are ‘totally secular’.
          ………………………..

          Mortimer, while there may be some Muslims in places like Afghanistan who say they want Shari’ah because the vast majority do, there may also be some in the West who say they don’t want Shari’ah because it might alarm the Infidels. We can only assume that these polls are at least broadly correct.

          And some of this depends on how questions are phrased. In the UK, for instance, 40% of Muslims in Britain say they want a Shari’ah state–but 68% want to see anyone who “insults” Islam to be arrested and prosecuted–and this is *certainly* Shari’ah.

          62% of Muslims in Canada want to see Shari’ah imposed. 77% of Muslims in Denmark believe the Quran’s instructions should be ‘fully appied’. 52% of Muslims in Sweden believe that Sharia is more important that Swedish law. 65% of Muslims in Europe say Sharia is more important than the law of the country they live in.

          I find this all very concerning.

          More:

          Please do not put generalities such as ‘benign’ into my mouth. ………………………..

          You did not use the word benign, but certainly implied that most Muslims would never support violence, which I find questionable.

          More:

          I look for precision and if you GENERALIZE you will only get erroneous conclusions that are fallacious.
          ………………………..

          There was nothing I said that was erroneous–and, as I noted, I cite respected polls all the time–as you well know.

          More:

          Studies come out in various countries every year. At present, 15% of Muslims worldwide support one or more terrorist groups. This group of 15% are definitely not ‘benign’. The other 85% of Muslims have different levels of ‘benign’, but I don’t have statistics and they probably change from week to week. We have no accurate measurement of how many Muslims are apostates, but I think it certainly seems to be about one-third.
          ………………………..

          The problem is that even Muslims who do not statistically support Jihad will often do nothing to stop it, including reporting plots to Infidel authorities.

          For instance, in Britain *two thirds* of Muslims said that they would not report a Jihad terror plot to the police.

          https://www.dailywire.com/news/4829/how-many-british-muslims-wouldnt-report-terror-michael-qazvini

          More:

          Once again, Muslims in the West are filled with cognitive dissonance and confusion about what they believe. Women’s universal education will lead to a growing dissatisfaction with Sharia and a growing disbelief. Most Muslims who drop out seem to keep their apostasy quiet.
          ………………………..

          This confusion, alas, is leading to a *lot* of dead Infidels.

          The reason, as you know, that Muslims keep apostasy quite is because so many of their coreligionists–including their families, often–would murder them if they knew.

          More:

          The polls/surveys are the best measure of what Muslims believe. Guessing and overgeneralizing is unreliable. I don’t guess.
          ………………………..

          Jayda Fransen saying that there is no moderate Islam is not a guess, nor is it overgeneralizing–this is what Muslims themselves affirm.

          And assuming that one third of Muslims are actually non-Muslims is *certainly* a guess–and one I believe is far too optimistic.

          In fact in Britain in a poll cited by The Telegraph, 36% of Muslims under 55 said they believed that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be punished by death.

  16. revereridesagain says

    May 3, 2019 at 10:42 pm

    A nation that bows down and grovels to the rapists of its women has no men left and is finished. That judge, whatever its gender, is a whore of Islam who obediently parrots that opposing evil “stirs up hatred and arouses fear”.

    • elee says

      May 4, 2019 at 1:01 pm

      Fear and hatred saved Britain a lifetime ago. Good thing the appeasers didn’t lock Churchill away for inciting both…….as well as hope and courage.

  17. revereridesagain says

    May 3, 2019 at 11:07 pm

    A member of my email group — all avid readers of JihadWatch — just reminded us that this is the 4th anniversary of the jihadist attack on the free speech event featuring, the Draw Mohammed contest, in Garland, Texas. I still recall the horrible moment of the “breaking news” on Fox News that there were “two dead” and relief that those were the would-be killers-for-Allah. We are all so grateful to the local police officers who stopped the jihadists dead in their tracks, and that people whose courage we so admire were not harmed.

  18. Olli Hekkala says

    May 4, 2019 at 12:42 am

    “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” – Matthew: 15:14

    “Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.” – Proverbs 28:10

  19. tgusa says

    May 4, 2019 at 12:55 am

    The mis-interpreters of islam strike again! There is going to be a lot of payback coming due in the not so distant future. The bill will have to be paid for the victims sake, it is the least we can all do.

  20. Demsci says

    May 4, 2019 at 3:11 am

    The difference of course is that Jayda Fransen asserts that Islam is just Islam and very bad, dangerous. And Erdogan that Islam is just Islam and clear and good. He abides by the Islamic tenet of “divine origine” and divine infallibility. I do believe you could irritate him even more than Jayda Fransen, by saying that Islam is NOT CLEAR, so not Divine, but a manmade hotchpotch.

    Gerd Puin said that 1/5 of the Quran makes no sense. Errors in the Quran are all over the internet. Quran et al has not been “updated” in 1200 years. Because of last and final prophet not one more message ever from Allah. OBSOLETE.

    Muslims use either still prescriptive or only descriptive at will, with no one to make final binding rules. Maybe Muslims lie and confuse Kafirs in this way, but Kafirs can legitimately point out that Islam is an unclear mess.

    But I emphasize that an unclear Quran is probably even more dangerous than a clear Quran. The real big lie that I see is that which was touted by Barack Obama, that “the real Islam is clear and a good religion, while the so-called radicals are an aberration”. No I see the all these versions, not one true version. I dispute Islams tenet of clarity of Quran and divine origine.

    It still means to me that eventually freedom of (this) religion should not be absolute. That in the end no Muslim can ever be trusted.

    • elee says

      May 4, 2019 at 1:12 pm

      Folks, can we take a moment to recall that radix is the Latin word for root……as in, say, “radish”? A radical Muslim is one who goes to the roots of his cult for guidance……..the same roots that get quoted here, just as we go to the roots of Christianity and Judaism…….and other bodies of belief…….to understand them. Saying radical Muslims are an exception in Islam is like saying that plants with roots in the ground are aberrant. I thought I had heard everything in my time, but I can’t remember anyone asking me to seriously consider “rootless plants” to be normal.

      • Demsci says

        May 5, 2019 at 4:21 am

        Thanks. Reading, understanding Pondering your point.

        But…. Islam is 1400 years old, never updated. Among the 1,6 billion Muslims many are struggling with the sacred texts. Important to know is that there IS taqqiya but that even that confuses the Muslims themselves also.

        But even more important to me; how do we persuade ordinary people, esp. on the left, that Islam is bad, dangerous? By telling them Islam is all bad. And there with all Muslims are bad, at least all Muslims who genuinely follow Islam? They protest vehemently against that 99 % of the time. Won’t even listen to you.

        Or confirming their own view of some kind of neutreal variable religion? But with providing proof of very bad and numerous bad variations?

        And; It is even more devastating to Muslims to hear that Islam is unclear, obsolete, contradictory than it is devastating to Muslims when Westerners admit that Islam is clear, albeit bad and dangerous. There is no Muslim who dare admit that Islam is unclear.

  21. Demsci says

    May 4, 2019 at 3:34 am

    And perhaps a message of an obsolete unclear but still very dangerous Islam helps somehow to let Leftists eventually “walk away from the de facto Red-Green alliance”. Which to me is even more urgent than to fight Islam on it’s own.

    But I still think that Judge was very wrong. If he was unsure of the meaning of her words, he needed to ask clarification from her. As it stands now I do not see her “inciting to violence”.

    But I did see what his judgement was based on; He saw her “Painting all Muslims with one brush”, the eternal complaint of people to almost anything counterjihadists say. It is nearly always the debate-stopper.

    And that is why I like to go another way, by not painting all Muslims with one brush, but by saying that Islam itself is confusingly unclear, that apologists cannot paint all Muslims with one brush, this time a beneficial brush, either. If there are more versions than one, then it is also clear that there are some pretty bad, dangerous ones out there (for 1400 years), that cannot be denied. It is a more complicated approach.

    • Olli Hekkala says

      May 4, 2019 at 4:32 am

      Jihad Symphony Orchestra. Very beautiful music. Some bang bong and lot of violins and some basso and tubas ect. People are fancy of good music if they have no taste of better.

    • elee says

      May 4, 2019 at 1:22 pm

      There are, I promise you (and can point to examples if you like), many leftists who cannot withdraw from any “Red-Green alliance,” because they never joined any such thing and never got consulted about joining such a thing. Thank you for being open to alliances with those who share misgivings about this world-domination cult called Islam.

      • Demsci says

        May 5, 2019 at 4:10 am

        Right. Of course it is very unofficial. And perhaps subconscious. But it seems to play out as if there is an alliance between Muslims and Leftists. See the behavior of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez en also Bernie Sanders who are attacking Trump and conservatives but defending Muslims like Ilhan Omar.

        But I do admit that I was unclear in my picturing this constantly recurring phenomenon. I thought many conservatives and others would know what I was talking.

  22. Jeanne says

    May 4, 2019 at 4:27 am

    RE: Why do Muslims Taqiyya Lie? Also, moderate muslims don’t really know what’s in their quran, and those that do know, lie about it because they are ashamed.

    This DEBATE is X-rated and it’s the TRUTH. [Ye Shall Know the Truth & the Truth Shall Set You Free.]

    Abdullah: On three points CP got badly smoked! The first point, were his perversions.

    CP: Just Wait, Peace of Christ to everyone. That was Abdullah. Right away the muslims start saying they had a debate and they smoked me. Well you know what, if the debate was a smoke to me why do you need to make — 100 videos to explain what happened in that video, If it was a victory anyway? And if it is a victory, who is stopping you from coming to me again, debate me again, to have more victories, coward!

    Now, let’s see what he’s saying here. To put it simply, he made a lot of videos to explain that each time he debated me, the reason why he got humiliated, why he lost. He is like other muslims, they are gamblers. They try to answer me in their audio, but the fact is that each time they do it they prove me right. Listen carefully.

    Abdullah: CP was twisting King David’s story in the noble quran and he tried to lie by saying allah almighty allowed for muslims to marry, basically a goat!.

    CP: Sure. I tried to lie saying that allah allowed muslims to marry goats, ok, if you say so. Well wait a minute, let’s see. The story of David is in the quran. Now, did David say that my brother has 99 goats and I have one? Here we go, I am not the one who is going to explain this. This is Chapter 38 vs. 23 as you see in the front of your eyes. And this is your muslim ingeel explanation. He’s saying there “that my brother has have 99*ewe,” which means women!! (Here it is used to represent women ). So muslims, even your woman is a goat. The quran is calling the woman, the wives goats. So when you say to me, Oh it does not say that, you are a liar. Not here, ewe represents women, but represents goats at the same time. Because Goats and Women in Islam are equal and the same. And let us prove that. He is arguing that I got this from an article. What article? You liar. This is Sahih Muslim, this is what our debate was about. This is Hadith 525 the Book of Menstruation, the explanation of the hadith … etc.

  23. Michael Copeland says

    May 4, 2019 at 5:50 am

    “the one common enemy”.

    The judge told the court: “I’m satisfied these words were intended to stir up hatred and arouse fear.”
    Sentencing her, the judge said the words she used were “unlawful”.

    See “Vox and the Enemy” at Gates of Vienna:
    https://gatesofvienna.net/2019/05/vox-and-the-enemy/

  24. Seth says

    May 4, 2019 at 6:03 am

    What she she should have done, of course, is simply quote relevant parts from the Quran.

    Let the judge then accuse her of stirring up hatred. Please.

    • elee says

      May 4, 2019 at 2:39 pm

      An Islamophobes hatespeech is a Muslim’s scripture. You can’t tell which is which till you read who is getting quoted.

  25. infidel says

    May 4, 2019 at 6:24 am

    MUST WATCH VID for JW-ers.. Terror in the Southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu..In the context of the SL bombings, this is a MUST WATCH.

  26. infidel says

    May 4, 2019 at 6:31 am

    These kinds of judgments are going to expedite deadly civil wars in the free-world.

  27. Michael Copeland says

    May 4, 2019 at 7:12 am

    Fransen and others were “accused of using threatening, abusive or insulting words intended to stir up hatred or arouse fear.”
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/britain-first-deputy-leader-convicted-of-hate-speech-in-belfast-1.3843143
    The judge, George Conner, told the court: “I’m satisfied these words were intended to stir up hatred and arouse fear.” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-48147994

    The judge has failed. His statement of satisfaction does not correspond with the Statute’s definition of the offence.

    Criminality is not attached to free-floating “words …intended to stir up hatred and arouse fear”. The Statute, the Public Order Act 1986, s.4, concerns words spoken directly person to person, threatener to intended victim. It clearly states “TOWARDS ANOTHER PERSON”, and, here is the important part, “WITH INTENT to cause that person to believe”, note, not “fear”, “that IMMEDIATE UNLAWFUL VIOLENCE will be used against him”. Here is the wording:

    “A person is guilty of an offence if he –
    “uses towards another person threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, … with intent to cause that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him”.
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64

    Fransen’s words were not directed person to person at intended victims, and there was no question of immediate unlawful violence, let alone intent to cause anyone to believe there would be.

    The appeal should make this clear.

    • elee says

      May 4, 2019 at 1:29 pm

      Thanks for this post. Your clarifications track with limitations on government speech-regulation under the (state and federal) Constitutional Bills of Rights. Those Yankee dead white guys did their best to protect us from censorship by requiring that any valid speech regulation apply only to situations in which the speech occurs in a circumstance giving rise to an objectively reasonable fear of immediate unlawful violence.

  28. Gamaliel says

    May 4, 2019 at 7:48 am

    Since when is saying something that leads people to be afraid of a threat a crime? On the other hand there are moderate Muslims even if there is no moderate Islam.

  29. Terra Nova says

    May 4, 2019 at 8:22 am

    Of course “Curiosity” is no good, it has the danger in it, that you might discover a truth that you want to keep hidden.
    And may be the organizers of the New World Order thought : Who can we pick out among the most largest ,
    and most violent groups in the world to attack the Western World to do our filthy work? As we are to coward to do it ourselves. And see, they came up with the muslim world, they hated the Jews already with a passion and they hated the Western world with a passion, so, muslims and NWO and EU and UN got together and the Leftists got together,(because they wanted something for themselves out of this too and let us not forget the Feminists, they are lovable people. They are for refugees, anything lovable, only not for gays and lesbians and freedom for women And see, it all worked out for all parties for a while, but then it will turn and the Muslims towards the end will never let go of anything and want to have more and more and that the Cabal, Illuminati, Elite, etc, do not want to give up everything to the Muslims. And then the Muslims probably will cry and call for their big giving brothers to
    help them out and fund them, which the big brothers will not like and everything might become very
    very uneasy to say the least, and you know that muslims, when feeling uneasy, they start to act violently,
    because what they conquered, they want to keep and the free loading must go on.

    It is a pity, a very big pity because the muslims were fantastic builders and architects, they had great writers and poets and music, this was when I was young, ages ago when I visited some of those countries and people were kind and respectful. That is where I learned to sit still and in silence together and it was so peaceful.
    But now when I see the same buildings and cities on TV, and how the people yell and scream and kill and rape, the years from my youth have disappeared, which is a pity, but may be I did not want to see all the violence then, and of course I did not see or witnessed beheadings or stoning or flogging then, and now truth has come out and is coming out everywhere. Talking about awakening !!!+ it was not only awakening from Muslims, I woke up too from who our Governments were, who Big Pharma was ,and almost about every Government in the world, but that awakening happened some long time ago already, and it got uglier and uglier
    The world now is ruled by dictators with enormous EGO’s and big pockets who need to be filled by taxpayers money. And most taxpayers can hardly afford it.

    The big greedy ones can fill their pockets and follow the money, it does not matter to them, where it comes from and who gets killed for it or starves from hunger for it. As long as you can people make believe that you are “good” for them, and they believe it and are loyal and there are still good people, who dare to think for themselves and want a better world and are respectful and don’t lie their whole lives and care for others, but you have to look for them with a small torch.

    Ayda Fransen is a courageous one. .
    She walks her talks and there are almost no people who dare to do that. (JW does that and all those who are trying to talk in Universities and write and defend free speech) , Robert Spencer and many others.
    Robert, I wish you again a good healthy life, you have to take good care of yourself now, your family and children and besides you, I want to thank your family too, for having stood by you. That must have been a big sacrifice for all those years, not must have been, WAS !

    About Islam, it does not seem about religion any more, it is about power and ego and thinking that YOU are superior to anybody else. But the dark always strangles itself in the end? But when is the end, only God knows, but do ‘NOT HAVE FEAR, in any case, fear is a bad thing . the baddies try to draw out fear, they feed of negative energy. God bless !

  30. No Muzzies Here says

    May 4, 2019 at 8:52 am

    Everything she said is true. Britain is willingly submitting to Islam, out of obedience to its new masters.

    • PRCS says

      May 4, 2019 at 8:57 am

      Muslims are a minority there.
      Plenty of ‘filthy unbelievers’ must be assisting in that.

  31. James Lincoln says

    May 4, 2019 at 9:04 am

    I had to take some time to think about what Jayda actually said. My conclusion is this:

    Nothing that she said was factually wrong – and she should not have been convicted of anything..

    In today’s UK, I believe the “tripwire” was hit when she said that it was time for the world to come together against the “one common enemy.”

    A reasonable person would conclude that when she used the phrase “one common enemy” that she meant Islam and not all Muslims. If she had made that important distinction crystal clear, she would have been able to bring a much better defense. See also could have more clearly defined what “come together against” meant.

    It certainly is not only reasonable but absolutely necessary that the world come together against Islam. Outside of some specific attacks against ISIS, etc., essentially all of this would involve nonviolence such as:

    Having the ability to discuss the true nature of Islam on a large scale without censorship. End political correctness.

    Maintaining borders of sovereign Western countries. Practice extreme vetting of immigrants, etc.

    Ensuring that all people living in a sovereign Western country assimilate into the host culture and follow all laws without exception. No sharia law, etc.

    I could go on and on, but I think the average Jihad Watch reader will get the drift.

    Thoughts?

    • Michael Copeland says

      May 4, 2019 at 9:49 am

      “Our common enemy, the enemy of Europe, the enemy of liberty, the enemy of progress, the enemy of democracy, the enemy of the family, the enemy of life, the enemy of the future is called the Islamist invasion.”

      So said Javier Ortega Smith of the Vox party in Spain, and he is being investigated for it.

      For how Islam’s spokesmen confirm what he said see:

      “Vox and the Enemy” at Gates of Vienna
      https://gatesofvienna.net/2019/05/vox-and-the-enemy/

      • James Lincoln says

        May 4, 2019 at 11:11 am

        I absolutely understand this, Michael. It is beyond horrific what is happening.

        The main point that I was trying to get across was this:

        If one very clearly identifies the enemy as “Islam” rather than “all Muslims”, that position may “potentially” be more legally defensible. The Koran and other Islamic sources can be quoted for proof, etc.

        Unfortunately, in today’s world, clear thinking evidence-based logic does not always prevail.

        And thanks for the link.

        • elee says

          May 4, 2019 at 1:40 pm

          When Chamberlain appeased and Hitler subsidised the Muslim Brotherhood, thank whatever gods may be for those who incited fear and hatred among our parents’ generation. Your point about individual Muslims—many of whom are admirable men and women—-is well taken…….but what about the passive accepting dues-paying Muslim who, like the German taxpayer and/or nominal Party member, who just wants to make a living and not catch a lethal fatwa?

  32. Edward Cline says

    May 4, 2019 at 9:23 am

    The so-called judge said that Jayda’s words were “intended to stir up hatred and arouse fear” about Islam. What better way to “stir up hatred and arouse fear” than to punish Jayda for telling the truth about Islam with the court’s words? We already hate and fear Islam.

    • Crusades Were Right says

      May 4, 2019 at 3:55 pm

      “stir up hatred and arouse fear”

      Sounds like a definition of “politics”! lol

  33. cekamsr says

    May 4, 2019 at 10:46 am

    10 years from now in the UK, if you even use the word “Jihadis” or “radical Islam” you’ll lose your job, credit scores, bank loans, and be thrown in prison it seems! Just look at California and the NRA today!! If you belong to or financially support the NRA in California you cannot get a State or Municipal government contract for your business and most banks will deny you a business loan or line of credit for supporting the NRA!! F’ing insane!!

  34. Walter Sieruk says

    May 4, 2019 at 11:04 am

    First and foremost, this British activist should not suffer punishment of the law for speaking out. .Be her words true or not For the citizens of the United Kingdom should be allowed to have the freedom of speech. After all, the UK is one of nations of the West and one common values of Western countries is, or should be freedom of speech.

    Total lack of freedom of speech is something that is common in the Islamic nations of the East.

    Second, just for the sake of argument is the idea a a type of “moderate Islam” might exist. This “moderate Islam” would be a watered down, mild non-violent kind of “Islam” that is not so completely based on the Qu’ran but a philosophy of non-violence.
    In all,fairness ,many imams and mullahs would strongly object to such a “moderate Islam” saying that it’s only an apostate Islam.

    Nevertheless, whatever the case, this British activist should not be punished ,in any way, for speaking out.

  35. Crusades Were Right says

    May 4, 2019 at 12:56 pm

    I wonder if calling people “racist” and “Islamophobic” in a society which is dominated by ideas of “tolerance” and “diversity” could be seen as “stirring up hatred”?

  36. Crusades Were Right says

    May 4, 2019 at 1:16 pm

    Presumably we can now look forward to a court crackdown on the people “stirring up hatred” against, and “arousing fear” of, Christians, Trump supporters, nationalists and white identitarians.

    Should I hold my breath?

  37. Crusades Were Right says

    May 4, 2019 at 1:21 pm

    If telling unpleasant truths about people “stirs up hatred” and “arouses fear”…

    …won’t that put crime reporters out of a job?

    • elee says

      May 4, 2019 at 1:48 pm

      Isn’t that what they’re doing to her? Weren’t both Churchill and Martin Luther King, among others, crime reporters in their time? Oh and the Abolitionists in Britain and America, and the Crusaders in their time? Does Britain wish to lock people up for inciting fear and hatred of pimps and enslavers? Really?

  38. Linda M Clark says

    May 4, 2019 at 1:33 pm

    Let’s not forget that Jayda is a Christian. I’ve followed her for a while now, and have seen videos where the police literally harass her for speaking her mind at rallies where same minded people have gathered to protest the rape of their CHILDREN by Muslims. Her conviction to speak out comes from her belief in Jesus Christ. So Pay ATTENTION everyone. This is what’s in store for us if people like Ilhan Omar have their way!

  39. Darryl Kerney says

    May 4, 2019 at 3:00 pm

    There is no CHOICE in islam,
    the quran says multiple times that allah chooses whom he wills to believe or lead astray, and then commands the punishment of those he lead astray….

    https://quranx.com/Search?Q=whom+he+wills&Context=quran

  40. janwoG says

    May 5, 2019 at 11:35 am

    Active Christian (the only real Christians) represent less than 5% of the general population in UK. Islam may have already overtaken. Hence, Christianity is the unprotected minority.

  41. IanB says

    May 5, 2019 at 11:41 am

    She wasn’t well defended at the trial. It would have been great if Robert could have given expert evidence in her defence by video link (also to give the runaround to May’s atrocious banning of Robert from the UK).

    • gravenimage says

      May 6, 2019 at 4:54 pm

      Sadly, I doubt the court would have allowed someone banned from the UK–albeit unjustly banned–to give testimony.

      • Felix Quigley says

        May 7, 2019 at 2:00 pm

        There is nothing “sadly” about it. It is a question of fighting to change this reality and not accept it. These bans must be lifted including the ban on Michael Savage and Pamela Geller. There are plenty who know enough about Islam who could have been called, and I would have been ready to speak in defence of Fransen. This needs to be a fighting defence on the part of Fransen. She is not just fighting for herself but for millions and even billions who hate Islam.

        • gravenimage says

          May 8, 2019 at 9:18 pm

          For once I agree wholeheartedly with Felix Quigley.

  42. Felix Quigley says

    May 7, 2019 at 1:19 pm

    I see some people making attacks on socialism. I want it to be known that I am a socialist, a Marxist, a Trotskyist and I am actively defending the speech rights of Jayda Fransen and am working for her release from prison. Not as a single issue of course but among many other issues.

    • gravenimage says

      May 8, 2019 at 9:20 pm

      Well, this is good. But, of course, if Felix Quigley is ever able to impose the horrors of Communism on his fellow Britons, that freedom of speech will not last long. There has never been a Communist country that has had any kind of freedom of speech–or any other kind of freedom.

  43. Felix Quigley says

    May 7, 2019 at 1:25 pm

    As an addendum to the above it is a fact that Karl Marx and his friend Engels were the most definite opponents of Islam. Why do people not know this and why is this not expressed in the writing of people about Islam. For the simple reason that many people are following a hating of Marx agenda and are in fact hiding this. A great crime in my opinion.

    • gravenimage says

      May 8, 2019 at 9:26 pm

      Actually, Marx and Engels had almost nothing to say about Islam–they mostly touch on it in order to further condemn Judaism and Christianity. Why would Felix Quigley think we wouldn’t know this?

      https://espressostalinist.com/2014/08/06/marx-and-engels-on-islam/

  44. Felix Quigley says

    May 7, 2019 at 1:49 pm

    The Judge stated

    “Sentencing her, the judge said the words she used were “unlawful”, adding that normally a custodial sentence would be imposed.”

    Jayda Fransen was given a community service sentence.

    But this detail matters very little. The Judiciary are laying down a marker that it is normally jail and that is the most intolerable part of this whole affair.

    The State and its Judiciary are seeking to block by all means any attempt to explain what Islam is.

    This is a big issue now. We need to know how Fransen fought this case and how she intends to fight the appeal.

    There are many issues that are unclear to me at any rate. It is also important to know what the main players such as the British Labour Party and Nigel Farage are saying and DOING on this issue.

  45. Felix Quigley says

    May 7, 2019 at 2:17 pm

    In january the Irish News reported this:

    I am not sure if this was mentioned in comments above

    “CLAIRE SIMPSON
    15 January, 2019 01:00
    A FORMER leader of a far-right group who is facing charges over a rally in Belfast has announced she has left the organisation.

    Jayda Fransen, who has been accused of inciting hatred in the city, said yesterday she had left Britain First.

    Ms Fransen was deputy leader of the group for several years.

    “That chapter of my life is now finished but an exciting and imperative new chapter is about to commence,” she said.”
    http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/01/15/news/jayda-fransen-announces-she-has-left-far-right-group-britain-first-1527864/

    Note that the description of Fransen as being far right are the words of the Irish News reporter Claire Simpson. If Fransen is a fighter against Sharia Law she is nothing to do with Franco, for example, but is a freedom fighter.

    But this report raises the question why did Fransen leave Britain First, and what is she alluding to when she talks about a new stage in her life opening up?

    What about the other three that were also being charged? (I apologise if this has been covered int he many comments above)

  46. Felix Quigley says

    May 25, 2019 at 3:48 am

    I repeat what I said above in relation to this Jayda Fransen sentencing issue, and it is an issue, a big issue, which Robert Spencer thankfully has at least raised, but that is far from the end of the matter:

    “But this detail matters very little. The Judiciary are laying down a marker that it is normally jail and that is the most intolerable part of this whole affair.”

    To expand my thoughts on that after some weeks…The British Establishment are very experienced, I would not say clever because their methods are doomed, but certainly cunning.

    Note that they did not sentence her to jail but to community service. But they set the precedent. Next time say for another poor soul who opposes Islam it will be jail, and criminals will be set free to make room in the jails for poor people who oppose Islam.

    As regards Britain First and how they fought this critical court case I do not know enough but it is a fact that the British Establishment are experts at taking on “Rebels” and beating down on them, and it is very difficult for such rebels to withstand the pressure. The history of trade union leaders is an example of that.

    The whole issue for me is unresolved.

    I will bow out of this discussion at this point and I hate that Gravenimage either 1. does not know the actual record of Marx on Islam or 2. as some people do know but hide it. Probably the former. Gravenimage actually quotes a Stalinist outfit back up there and it is clear by the url even without reading any further on the matter that it is expressly Stalinist. But the truth is Marx could not have went further in his attack on Islam. That is for another time. I just hate lies of any kind about any subject but this one is very loaded in significance.

    • gravenimage says

      May 27, 2019 at 4:50 pm

      Note that Felix Quigley does not say that these quotes from Marx and Engels in the article I cited are incorrect–nor does he cite further quotes by either of them that would add to what he claims.

      He may not like Stalinists–God knows I don’t, either–although in his case he just considers them to be rivals to his own appalling Communist factions. But they did not get anything wrong in that article.

      Felix Quigley just doesn’t like anyone going straight to the source material–the actual writings of Marx and Engels–if it contradicts the unfounded claims he makes.

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