“British Jews have spoken of their fear after a pro-Palestine group supported by Jeremy Corbyn forced Jewish-owned shops to close by staging aggressive rallies outside them.”
Corbyn also was recently ‘saluted’ by Hamas who thanked him for his support of a pro-Palestinian march. And three months ago, Corbyn stood up to block efforts by the UK Home Office to ban his “friends” Hizballah from the UK.
How any freedom-loving, human rights supporting, Israel recognizing individual could possibly support the jihadist Palestinian cause given its infamous history is mind blasting. Now, at the expense of Jews who suffer increasing violent Islamic anti-semitism, the chickens are coming home to roost in the UK and elsewhere in Western nations (via open door immigration). The intolerance and violence that is now escalating in Western countries that is ‘normal’ in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere across Islamic States is gaining more traction, thanks to those Leftists who are are enabling Islamic supremacism and willfully ignoring its gross misdeeds; yet they continue to escape accountability. These enablers are in fact being funded by taxpayers through Leftist government officials and bogus programs that claim to advocate for human rights, but yet ignore the worst human rights violations in the world today, perpetrated by Islamic supremacists against innocents, and committed in the name of Islam.
“EXCLUSIVE: British Jews in fear after pro-Palestine group supported by Corbyn forces Jewish shops to close with ‘campaign of intimidation'”By Jake Wallis Simons, Daily Mail, May 31, 2019:
British Jews have spoken of their fear after a pro-Palestine group supported by Jeremy Corbyn forced Jewish-owned shops to close by staging aggressive rallies outside them.
The Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC), of which Mr Corbyn is patron, targeted shops selling Israeli products in Brighton, London and Manchester, forcing two businesses to fold.
Earlier this month, it organised a rally in London which saw ‘open anti-Semitism from attendees’, according to the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism. A statement from the Labour leader was read out to the crowd.
It comes as Labour became the only party after the BNP to be formally investigated for racism by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC).
A new film, Hounded, has been released today by anti-racism campaigners to draw attention to the harassment of Jews who sell goods from Israel, highlighting a ‘campaign of intimidation’ that has been going on for years.
It focuses on the case of a British Jewish businessman who fled the country with his family after he was hounded for five years by the Scottish PSC and the Republican Network for Unity, neither of which are officially endorsed by Mr Corbyn.
Nissan Ayalon, 33, relocated three times to escape the activists but each time they found him, attacking his shop with paint bombs because he sold Israeli cosmetics.
The revelations about the PSC will increase the pressure on the Labour leader – who was officially saluted by Hamas last week – as he struggles to contain his party’s anti-Semitism crisis…..
Frank Anderson says
Anyone who has not taken time to watch any number of documentaries covering Germany before WWII should change course and watch. Storm Troopers, the SA, abused Jews with full protection of the government from the moment Hitler became Chancellor in 1933. One of the major events in the campaign that continued with interruption only for the Berlin Olympics was Chrystal Night to avenge the killing of a Nazi diplomat in France. The invaders who wish to make any country into theirs instead of being part of the country they have “chosen” are functioning identically with the SA, and receiving the same “wink and a nod” treatment from law enforcement, such as it is. While Hitler’s body may be, and probably is, dead, his legacy continues through willing collaborators to this day.
gravenimage says
I never thought I would see this, either. Whatever happened to “Never Again!”?
Frank Anderson says
GI, I have asked the same question for about 4 years. For 23 years, every service, every speaker, every event concerning the Holocaust, I attended with dozens or hundreds. But the lesson from the experience appears to be lost.
gravenimage says
Grimly this seems to be largely the case, Frank. When I was a child the term was used frequently; now I can’t remember the last time I heard it.
Frank Anderson says
GI I have heard Benjamin Netanyahu say those words several times in televised statements.
gravenimage says
Thank you, Frank–that about Netanyahu does not surprise. When I was a child, though, this phrase’s usage was common–in the US, in Europe, at the United Nations–now, shamefully, it is rare at best.
A_M_Swallow says
“Never again” was applied to Fascism and capitalism but probably not to communism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism
gravenimage says
Yes–I was referring to the West. I don’t think the Soviets ever said “Never Again”.
And I am grimly familiar with antisemitism in the Soviet Union–I worked with “Refuseniks” in the 1980s there who were trying to flee to Israel or the West.
A_M_Swallow says
Jeremy Corbin is an extreme left winger = communist controlled by the Russians.
A_M_Swallow says
The Daily Mail did not say because their readers know. Jeremy Corbin is ‘Leader of the Opposition’ and head of the Labour Part. If the Labour Party win Britain’s next general election he will become Britain’s Prime Minister.
IMHO The idea that in a years time this man could be adding Jerusalem to the nuclear targeting list is probably unpopular in Israel.
gravenimage says
A_M_Swallow, I could see Corbyn being controlled by the old Soviets. but probably not the Russians today. He has, in fact, been critical of the Russians.
carpediadem says
Neither the UK govt nor the Lefties and certainly not Hamas supporters ever subscribed to this.
Leslie Fish says
It’s reached the point where Jews have to seriously defend themselves, because their govt. clearly won’t do it for them. UK citizens have been legally stripped of conventional weapons, so they’ll have to invent new ones. Allow me to suggest small portable CO2 fire-extinguishers, slingshots firing darts, and rocks or heavy objects stuffed into tube-socks. Go about only in groups, and be ready to fight at a moment’s notice. Take martial-arts training, and learn how to improvise weapons from common public or household items. Where possible, walk with large dogs — preferably black and attack-trained. If possible, walk with pet pigs — preferably attack-trained. When defending an area, such as a shop, use bigger CO2 fire-extinguishers, cudgels, and “petrol-bombs” if necessary. Keep shops and houses guarded after dark. Yes, it’s come to this. Run or fight, but you can’t hide.
Frank Anderson says
L.F., I think it is extremely important to know the local laws concerning self-defense. In the US I have read about several cases from the UK indicating there is no lawful means for a person to defend himself against a criminal attack, even for an aged person in his own home. Whenever I make a comment that involves a non-lawyer’s rights and duties the comment includes: Please consult a currently licensed attorney practicing in your jurisdiction for any legal advice. This is one of those times and issues where local counsel is an extremely good idea. If the criminal attacker doesn’t get you the government will for breaking its laws. “Damned if you do and damned if you don’t”,
This is a totally unacceptable posture for any “civilized” country; but it looks like that is the law in many countries today. The right and duty of self-defense has been recognized and accepted in “civilized societies” from time immemorial, until recently. Nazi Germany certainly did not permit self-defense against Storm Troopers or the SS as they were beating and murdering their victims. I see muslim invaders who run free with government blessing as the new incarnation of those same Nazi’s.
Reziac says
I agree. It’s to where proactive self-defense against Muslim marauders is necessary just to live. A sorry state for a western country to be in.
The problem is the average Jew or Gentile has something to lose (business, children, home). And what they have to lose is being held hostage for their “good behavior” (that is, to ensure they won’t defend themselves). In this case, if they defend themselves against Muslim aggressors, the UK gov’t will come down on their heads and take their stuff, just as it has people who speak out in social media.
But eventually the wolf gets around to eating the sheep who kept their heads down, and you lose everything anyway. So better to defend yourself early and often, rather than after it’s too late.
The invaders are already ahead because they can form mobs at the drop of a hat — idle Muslims are everywhere to hand, while most Jews and Gentiles are occupied with their work, making it harder to form defensive groups. But at this point it has to be done, or you will wind up with a brick embedded in your skull.
A friend who lives in an iffy part of a city carries an ordinary walking cane as a weapon — that’s one the gov’t can’t reasonably restrict (and there are people who give classes in the use of the cane as a weapon). If I lived there… I have a winter walking stick with a pointed metal-shod foot. Cops in San Francisco advised my sister to carry a ballpeen hammer in her car. Never go unarmed into hazard. Weapons are all around you.
Frank Anderson says
Reziac, please notice my earlier comment, especially the prayer to seek local advice from a currently licensed lawyer. It is my understanding of the general law against murder, attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon that firearms are not the exclusive weapon that can be used to support the charge. It does not matter, in my opinion, whether the weapon is a motor vehicle, cane, knife, bat, tennis racket, club, hammer or stick, a weapon is a weapon is a weapon. If the local law prohibits the use of weapons in self-defense you fall back on the old saying that “I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6”. Where self-defense is not recognized by the law, and treated under the category of “justification, mitigation or excuse” the results can be bizarre. I believe in the UK an older man in his home killed one invader who was beating him with a weapon and wounded a second. The old man was sentenced to prison for 15 years. I always welcome correction anytime I am in error. That is another way of learning.
There is a saying common in some US circles, “God made men; Samuel Colt made them equal.” Another quote from Samuel Clements (Mark Twain), “There is no more peaceful place than a room full of armed men.” Even though these may not be the precise quotes, the ideas have enough merit to consider. Both of those propositions demand that the law of self-defense, which has been recognized and practiced worldwide for as long as civilization has existed, until recently, be respected and practiced. The law, right and duty is not recognized today where muslim invaders run rampant. Look how many are given free rides and escape any punishment for their crimes, while those who act against them, even by telling the truth are prosecuted and punished. Hitler would be proud that his legacy of lawlessness continues to be followed.
A_M_Swallow says
“… I believe in the UK an older man in his home killed one invader who was beating him with a weapon …”
i have never heard of that case. I have heard of a case in which an old man shoot the intruder in the back. When the intruder is running away it is no longer self defence.
Frank Anderson says
AMS, you may be correct. I am relying on memory. The US NRA reported the account well over 10 years ago. Many have the view that self defense continues as long as the attacker is present where he has no right to be. He does not get a free pass by “running away” after almost killing his victim. The victim has no promise the attacker will not turn around and finish killing the person acting in self defense.
Natalie says
Watch the documentary Nazi Jihad to understand that Muslims have always picked the side of hate and destruction. The next documentary to be made will be “Corbyn’s Jihad.”
Dwight Weidman says
The problem is further compounded by the fact that this is taking place in a country where innocent people are unable to defend their lives and property with firearms.
abad says
+1
And that is what the liberal elite in America wants, to confiscate private ownership of guns. Their latest excuse: Virginia Beach.
Antiislamicman says
Corbyn is a tool for Islam. It’s common knowledge that Corbyn has a serious dislike for Jews. Corbyn openly supports a certain Islamic terrorist group, need I say more.
GROO the Wonderer says
“Corbyn is a tool ”
+1
gravenimage says
UK: Jews in fear after pro-Palestinian group supported by Jeremy Corbyn forces Jewish shops closed
………………….
This is *terrifying*–one step below Kristallnacht. What makes this all the more frightening is that this is supported by someone who may well become prime minister.
Anjuli Pandavar says
I think Britain will cut out the middle man and go directly for a Muslim Prime Minister, who will be placed there not by Muslims, but by the non-Muslim majority, who shall look upon their works and be proud.
gravenimage says
I hope not–but it is widely believed that Sadiq Khan, current mayor of London (this pains me no end) is gunning for 10 Downing Street.
Although not technically Muslim, Corbyn might be as bad or worse.
Anjuli Pandavar says
worse.
carpediadem says
This has gone on for years, why be shocked now?
A_M_Swallow says
Sounds like British Jews are waking up. Good. The police have been sent on too many wild goose chases. Falsely accusing whites of crimes committed by Muslims is the sin of false witness (see 10 Commandments) and annoys the white community.
Frank Anderson says
AMS, be certain of my great love and appreciation for Judaism and the people who follow its teachings. I have never found a satisfactory answer for a question that I have asked, as have the Holocaust survivors: Why did half of Germany’s Jews not take the warnings and get out? Hitler from his first public speech and all his actions made clear his hatred of Jews. Half of German Jews got the message and tried to get away. Some did while others did not go far enough. Why are approximately 75 percent of US Jews Democrats who support open borders and mass immigration of enemies? Islam has taught and practiced slaughter of all infidels for 1400 years, yet many people believe “They don’t mean me!” Ask between 250,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 dead people who have been killed by islam in 1400 years: YES they are serious. Paraphrasing Mark Gabriel at page 52 of The Unfinished Battle, “If islam is such a great deal why were 4,000,000 Egyptians killed bringing it to Egypt?”
A_M_Swallow says
The Jews did not get out of Hitler’s German because no other country would have them. In the 1930s other countries closed their birder to Jews. Even the USA. For example
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27373131
Frank Anderson says
AMS, you are entirely correct about the failure of countries, including the US and especially the UK in “Palestine” closing their borders for entry. About half of Germany’s 600,000 Jews out of a total population of approximately 60,000,000 tried to go somewhere between 1933 and the start of the war in 1939. They went in many directions. Approximately 100,000 made it to the US. Some wound up in Poland or Czechoslovakia, and came back under German control. But about half never tried to get out. I maintain the First Holocaust Deniers were those who never tried to get out; because they did not believe Hitler’s commitments. Many of them paid for their denial.
gravenimage says
This is grimly true–many Jews had nowhere to flee to.
And some Jews who had seen the writing on the wall and fled Germany early on were later caught up when the nations they fled to fell to the Nazis. This was the case with Anne Frank’s family, who had fled to the Netherlands.
Rarely says
Frank.
As usual I appreciate your well considered opinions. I have a few follow-up questions.
(1) Where could the German Jews go when the most liberal democracies, including the U.S., Canada, and Britain had very restrictive quota systems? Since most of Hitler’s victims were from Eastern Europe and didn’t have the 7 year window German Jews did, where could they go — especially since immigration quotas for immigration from Poland, Romania, etc. were even more stringent?
(2) Why would any Christians, let alone Jews, support the far left agenda?
I suspect that if the Christian community sees this as a “Jewish Problem” only then they are in for a big surprise.
Frank Anderson says
Rarely, you are as far as I know absolutely correct that few places were open to escape. I agree that many have a lot of deserved shame on their burden. But half never saw the need to escape because they refused to believe what they heard from the first public speech made by Hitler in August, 1920, from what he wrote and what he ordered from his earliest control of the Nazi party on. That is the kind of blind, deaf and dumb denial in practice today about 1400 years of murder, slavery and conquest.
At the present, those who support islam and its appendages who also claim to be Christians and Jews are lying to themselves and others. It is impossible in my understanding to follow a God of Life while at the same time supporting a god of death.
I very strongly believe that every good deed is a minimum of 3, for the person who receives it, for the person who does it and to the glory of The God who makes all Good Things possible. I write for both you and me, and for a person I hope will one day see what has been missed. I wish I had a similar record of my family’s thoughts. The first prayer usually spoken at Jewish Friday night services (that I am no longer welcome to attend) is the Candle Blessing, It includes the words, “Keep us far from all shame, grief and anguish. . .” This writing is one of the ways I try to help us all MOVE instead of going around in circles wondering what to do. If we don’t move, they will destroy not only us but all the future. A world under islam is a horrible place to contemplate.
Frank Anderson says
Rarely, Additional thought: An argument can be made that many countries share responsibility with Hitler and Nazi Germany for the killing of 6,000,000 Jews by refusing their requests for asylum. Now in what may be an over-reaction the US has asylum laws that attract hordes of illegal invaders knowing they flood the system and can beat their way into the welfare system. Today those “refugees” are wanted for their impact in distorting both the electoral system and economy by people who wish to destroy both-for the final purpose of imposing their brand of Venezuelan socialism. “You are a helpless idiot; and I the great wise dictator know all that is best for you.” That is not working and has never worked wherever people have been miss-guided enough to allow it. But, 80 years ago, a completely different fact was ignored-Hitler’s pronouncements and the actions at his orders and permission. We are ignoring the same actions today with muslims.
Anjuli Pandavar says
Rarely, Frank. This is an interesting exchange. I’d like to pick up on a different point from Rarely: “Where could the German Jews go when the most liberal democracies, including the U.S., Canada, and Britain had very restrictive quota systems?”
—
In the current abuse of the concept of refugee in order to effect illegal mass migration, migrant (someone who leaves their homeland for another, possibly under greater or lesser privation, but not under a threat to life, is equated to refugee, someone seeking refuge to save their life. When someone is fleeing for their life, the conditions of entry to the place where they are out of reach of threat to life becomes irrelevant. This is not a legal matter, but a matter of life and death. A migrant is faced with the question of where he or she will be accepted.
The implication of Rarely’s question is that the Jews fleeing Nazi Europe were mere migrants, rather than refugees. When you are a refugee, the question of whether another country will accept you doesn’t arise: you just get the Hell out from where you are, even if you have no idea of where you’re going. You’re not going to apply for a passport if the killers are at the end of your street. You’re not going to buy a ticket for a ship. You’re going to leap aboard (or throw your child on board) and refuse to leave, regardless of where the ship’s going.
It is one of the tragedies of our time that the word “refugee”, like so many other words, have been corrupted for the basest of reasons. Rarely does the same thing from the opposite end: whereas today migrants are assumed to be refugees, Rarely assumes refugees to be migrants. I’m not raising this point to detract from the excellent wider question of denial in the face of all the warning. I am also well aware of the various ways in which migrants abuse refugee status.
[Incidentally, there was a sizeable European Jewish refugee community in Japanese-occupied Shanghai during the war, who remained till the early Communist years, when they migrated to Israel. When I was teaching in Shanghai, I had my students do their project in the “former Jewish ghetto”, as it is known.]
Frank Anderson says
A.P. an appreciated contribution to the conversation. Comparing muslim invaders to all countries (absolutely evil intentions), and economic “refugees” fleeing drug cartels and corrupt governments invading the US (flying their “home” flags showing intention to bring their problems to the US), to Jews fleeing Nazi genocide is “apples vs. oranges”. The motivations are simply not comparable.
Obviously, hopefully, every word I have ever written or spoken has been in clear support of all Jews who recognized Hitler’s intentions and did anything they could to survive. In total spite of the local Jewish feeling about me, I have every reason to wish all Jews well, success, and total security. Not only do I believe what is written in the Bible about the “sons of Abraham” being a blessing (spoken 3 times 3 to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), I also believe the truth of the writing is shown by history. Compare Dimond’s Jews, God and History with Spencer’s History of Jihad, or any of the 30 or so other books I have read addressing islam.
It is the poor, blind, deaf, dumb and delusional people, Jews and all others, who refuse to see today, as European Jews back then, the current, serious, absolute commitment to their enslavement or destruction that I wish to help see.
Anjuli Pandavar says
I’m sorry, Rarely. I don’t mean to say that you’re doing it “for the basest of reasons”, only that you’re doing it, and no doubt unintentionally.
Natalie says
Frank Anderson you are correct. Many would not believe the intent behind Hitler’s words just ad many shake their heads in disbelief today at this world gone Islamic mad. For many others, my granparents included, they had parents, brothers and sisters who refused to believe Hitler’s intent. Refusing to leave them behind and desperately trying to convince them to leave meant that they missed the window of opportunity to leave Germany in time. Today people say ” this will never happen again,” but it will and it already is and not just to the Jews. It is happening everywhere and in the face of this covert and overt Jihad, soon there will be nowhere left to hide.
gravenimage says
Yes–a lot of people, Jews included, thought early on that a lot of Hitler’s ranting was just rhetoric, and was not to be taken seriously.
Frank Anderson says
Natalie, not only have I heard, but video recorded many (perhaps dozens) of Holocaust survivors. Those recordings were made free of any charge for the local community and the files remain on my computer. I am not the origin of the question.
RichardL says
British Jews, just like American Jews, are overwhelmingly lefties, who side with the islamophiles.
Anjuli Pandavar says
RL, “British Jews, just like American Jews, are overwhelmingly lefties”
—
Certainly, this is significant, but I’m not sure this is enough to account for the phenomenon. Considers, for example, the overwhelming peril that non-Muslim women and girls now face in growing parts of Europe as a direct result of mass Muslim illegal immigration: complacency, on the one hand, and the readiness to believe (or to insist to yourself) that this couldn’t happen to you or to your wife, sister, mother, daughter, granddaughter. I’d suggest it doesn’t even need to get that far: Muslim men gang-raping your daughter is simply too horrible to contemplate. And because it’s too horrible to contemplate, it’s impossible. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence that it’s coming your way, it’s still impossible that it’s going to happen to you.
I’m not trying to take the discussion away from the growing persecution of Jews in Western Europe, or the disgrace that is Jeremy Corbyn. I’m suggesting that Frank’s post points to something deeper in human psychology and, of cause, behind both problems stands the religion of peace.
Frank Anderson says
A.P., I may comment too often about Viktor Frankl’s Man’ Search for Meaning. It is a book he wrote as an MD/Psychiatrist after surviving the death camps in the Holocaust. His personal task that he used to survive after his entire family was killed the first day they hit the camps was to learn why others did not commit suicide. All it took was to step over a wire strung about 10 feet from the camp fence to be shot dead by a tower guard. The book was a gift to me from a friend when I needed it. It is short; the English translation is beautiful and easy to read. Frankl summarized his observations as the “delusion of reprieve”. When something is too bad to handle, instead of facing the reality to make decisions that might make things better, create some dream to look the other way for daily survival, even if it means you do little or nothing to save yourself. By good fortune, or the Grace and Mercy of God, Frankl was the only person in his “hut” to escape the last day killing of his fellow inmates. What we have seen bad, Frankl saw worse. We do not need to see it with him in person.
Anjuli Pandavar says
FA, thank you very much for the reference. I might just add that I find your posts thought-provoking. You are always insightful and, unlike me, always measured. I gain a much from reading your comments.
Frank Anderson says
A.P, thank you. I am honored. I write this for us, and for a person I hope will find it when the time is right. “Keep us far from all shame, grief and anguish. . .” The Candle Blessing.
gravenimage says
Agree with Anjuli.
gravenimage says
Many people are still in denial over the threat of Islam.
owensgate says
It takes only one brown-shirted “rabble-rouser” to turn a loud demonstration into a riot. I think, if I were Jewish, and hadn’t yet thought of moving to Israel, I’d start perusing travel sites on the ‘net. It’s Déjà vu 1938 all over again.
Frank Anderson says
O.G., I may have my years wrong. Hitler was appointed Chancellor in 1933 (Jan, 30, 1933). The Reichstag burned a month or so later. The Night of the Long Knives was about 16 months later where about 400 people were killed both from SA leaders and other enemies of Hitler. By 1938 it was getting far too late for getting out. Approximately Nov 9, 1938, 1200 Synagogues were burned, 30,000 or so were “arrested” and more or less 1,000 Jews were killed. Approximately 70,000 Jews were “arrested” in Austria after the Anschluss. And still they watched and waited for death. Please check my dates and numbers. There is no need to make things up-they are quite sufficiently ugly when accurately discussed. “There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.”
owensgate says
Although anti-Jewish sentiment had been stoked by the NAZI’s for many prior years, I was referring to when it all came to a head, Kristallnacht, 9–10 November 1938. It was before my time, but obviously I haven’t “missed it”, as it’s happening again.
Frank Anderson says
O.G. NO offense intended. I think we both observe the silence and inattention rampant to the ongoing attacks that so clearly follow the trail of the Nazi’s. I think my continuing frustration because I cannot understand how so many refused before the Holocaust to see what was coming and to try to do something to escape, is a strong motivation to keep asking my question. Illegal, self-help measures (assassinations) never improve the condition of an oppressed population-they just give un-needed excuses for mass reprisals against innocent bystanders. You of course have not mentioned such actions; neither of us advocate them because we understand there is no reason to make the work of oppression easier. The final lawful means of dealing with oppression, which can still be deadly (as shown by the Communist wall in Germany) is escape. Waiting too long in hope of rescue often proves fatal.
gravenimage says
Also, for a long time Jihad Watch had what Robert Spencer called “1938 alerts” about worsening conditions like this, especially in Europe.
“1938” was a catchall, of course, for when things had become obviously bad even to the casual observer.
Frank Anderson says
O.G., and G.I., I went back to my DVD’s and found the correct date of the 1 day “boycott” of Jewish stores and shops by the Nazi’s. It was April 1, 1933, 2 months after Hitler became Chancellor. That was more than 5 years before Chrystal Night. How bad and threatening does the situation have to be for the message to be delivered and understood? Then and now?
gravenimage says
A lot of people are still in denial, Frank.
But Jews in the UK do seem to be waking up to the threat.
Frank Anderson says
GI, may God (however each of us see Him) be praised for everyone who wakes up.
gravenimage says
Agreed, Frank.
Lydia Church says
All of this will also only get worse as we move further into the end times.
Just be prepared accordingly.
Older Canadian says
Lydia: Homo Sapiens of all colours, in all geographical locations, all religions (current and ancient) have been killing each other, hating each other, stealing from each other since day one. Nothing new, nothing has changed or changing. The roles are the same only the actors are different. And we think we understand what the word “civilized” means.
gravenimage says
Older Canadian, things are far worse when people adhere to a violent supremacist creed.
Clayton Norcroft says
How anyone could support the Palestinian cause is in fact not hard to explain. Its supporters are convinced that it is a legitimate quest for national rights on the part of a people who, instead of being helped to become a self-governing nation after the withdrawal of their imperial masters, the Turks, in 1918, as happened in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, were colonized, imposed on and thieved from, had their territory handed off to someone else by unjust international decree, and have been subjected to occupation and military force ever since in order to make sure that their hellish situation never changes. Their campaign may have entailed crimes, but all military operations do that, and theirs is as legitimate a use of force as has been that of any people fighting for their freedom and self-determination.
This is of course leaving out all the essential facts, but, I put it this way simply to make the point. This is how people like Jeremy Corbin see the Israel/Palestine impasse. This view is as ingrained in those who take it as a religious doctrine, and it is as unquestioned as one. It has a huge following in Europe and North America, and its constituency is growing. The existence of a Jewish state is seen as an instance of the world-historical crime of white imperialism against indigenous peoples, and emphatically not as a Jewish national movement which gained international support and would have disadvantaged no one if only they had had the wisdom to accept it.
The subject has been argued about more than the existence of God, but be prepared. The Jeremy Corbin view of Israel/Palestine is what Victor Hugo famously said there was no force in the world that could withstand it – an idea whose time has come.
gravenimage says
Yes–the idea that little Israel is some sort of aggressive white colonial superpower oppressing peaceful “brown” people is ridiculous–but you hear this absurdity all the time.
Felix Quigley says
Of course it is ridiculous and is filled with Antisemitism. But the real answer to this is to insist publicly and everywhere that the Jews are a Nation, that they need a physical Homeland, and because of Antisemitism in the world we must help Jews to live alone unmolested by Antisemitism of any kind. To decide their own future without any interference of any kind.
gravenimage says
I do agree with Felix Quigley here. But thugs like this claim–absurdly–that Israel was ‘stolen’ from the “Palestinians”, and that this makes it fine for Muslims to attack Jews world-wide.
Of course, Jews’ roots in the Levant date back thousands of years, and murderous Muslim antisemitism predates the modern state of Israel by over 1300 years.
Joe says
There’s a problem with this explanation. The problem is that this explanation implies a “one-state solution”–wiping Israel off the map. However, the proponents of this view, in order to push it forward, often proclaim that they only want peace between Israel and so-called Palestine. They need to do so because the vast majority of Westerners want peace but do not want Israel wiped off the map. So, if as you say, the radical left anti-Israel agenda is “an idea whose time has come” were true they wouldn’t have to resort to such deceptions.
gravenimage says
There are liberals who do hope that a “two state solution” would indeed bring peace–I was one of them when I was in my teens and early twenties. Then I realized that Muslims don’t want peace.
Of course, many Muslims–and some hard-leftists–are just proposing the “two state solution” as a stepping stone to wiping out Israel altogether.
jeffrey chasalow says
And you think that this is something new? Even when Germany was persecuting it’s Jewish citizens, so was the UK, the Soviet Union, and most if not all, of the European countries. The middle east was already driving it’s Jewish people out, and few, if any countries in the world would accept them as refuges. Where could they go then? Where can they go now? Israel and the USA.
Indiana Tom says
Kristallnacht repeats itself. Germany is not alone.
Mark Spahn (W says
I do not know who this Jeremy Corbyn is, so I went to the Daily Mail article and searched on his name, expecting that he would be identified by some title like “Prime Minister” or “Labour Party Under-Secretary of Publicity”. To my surprise, he is not identified at all!
A_M_Swallow says
@Mark Spahn My reply to your question is above.
Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY) says
Thank you, A_M_Swallow for your reply that “The Daily Mail did not say [who Corbyn is] because their readers know.” In U.S. newspapers an identification is given even if the person in a news article is well known. I have not previously noticed that this is not the practice in UK newspapers.
A_M_Swallow says
The US equivalent of Jeremy Corbyn is Hillary Clinton. Does the media really say who she is?
gravenimage says
Mark, Jeremy Corbyn is Leader of the Labour Party and Leader of the Opposition since 2015. He has long been touted as future prime minister–although the recent election with the high votes of the Brexit Party may thankfully change that.
He is a vicious antisemite, and is not just pro-Muslim, but actually pro-Jihad. He is terribly dangerous to Britain.
Here are more stories about him at Jihad Watch–the first is this one, then on to others:
https://www.jihadwatch.org/tag/jeremy-corbyn
He regularly hobnobs with Jihad terror groups like Hamas and Hezb’allah.
tim gallagher says
I keep wondering how this far left, and very old guy, Jeremy Corbyn, became the leader of the UK Labour party. As someone who is in Australia, I have often been puzzled by this development. I mean UK Labour used to have Tony Blair and that type of reasonably moderate person as their leader. I don’t get it. Corbyn certainly seems like a dangerous type of loon. Couldn’t UK Labour come up with someone more sensible, moderate and maybe younger as their leader? There must be such a shortage of talent in the UK Labour Party to make this guy the leader. Bernie Sanders, in the USA, seems very similar to Corbyn. Corbyn seems like some old style commie, but his getting so cosy with Islam, and disliking Jewish people so much, is bizarre and a big worry. Then again, to me, he seems like some far left loony with shit for brains. Could he really ever become Prime Minister? If the English vote Labour, with a loony like Corbyn, into power, then they must have gone mad. You get the government you deserve in a democracy and all that. But then, Farage, and his very new Brexit Party, is also very popular, so conservatism must be popular as well in the UK. I keep thinking, nah, the English people couldn’t vote a Labour party with Corbyn into power. No way that could happen. I certainly hope that’s the case.
gravenimage says
Agreed, Tim–I was no particular fan of Tony Blair, but he was certainly a generally sane and broadly decent man. Not so Jeremy Corbyn…
You are right that both Labour and the Democrats have lurched dangerously to the Left–something that would have been unimaginable just a few years ago.
But Bernie Sanders, hard-left socialist that he is, looks like a champion of Western civilization next to the vicious and toxic Jeremy Corbyn. That he is not just considered a figure of the loony fringe in Britain is very disturbing.
tim gallagher says
Like you, gravenimage, I’m never a fan of the policies of the leftist parties, so I was no fan of Tony Blair, but it has just struck me how different and so much worse a UK Labour leader such as Corbyn is to Blair. I’m stunned that the Labour party can’t come up with someone better. As you say, there is a dangerous lurch to the left going on. I guess I’ve heard a few commentators out here say that Corbyn and Sanders are old time lefties, and, I guess, the look they both have of being fairly advanced in their age, makes them seem similar in some way. No doubt, as you say, Sanders is far less toxic. I haven’t looked into it, but I get the feeling Corbyn is someone who’s hung around in the Labour party forever and, sort of the last man standing, somehow has made it to the leadership. Every dog has its day type of thing. His hatred of Jews and bizarre affection for the Muslims is repulsive, although it is very common for the left to be very pro-Palestinian and thus develop a hatred for Israel. The main thing is, as you say in your last sentence, that it is very disturbing that someone like Corbyn isn’t considered a complete lunatic in the present day UK
gravenimage says
Corbyn is just especially awful, even by hard-leftist standards.
Dano says
Justified fear as it is very reminiscent of Kristallnacht.
Frank Anderson says
Dano, I believe if you will do some research there was a Nazi directed “boycott” of Jewish stores shortly after Hitler took power. It was so unpopular and so poorly obeyed that it ended after about a day, causing Hitler to stop attacking Jews openly for several years. The boycott is mentioned in a number of documentaries.
Rod says
What weird people must haunt this site. We have a report on events in London from – not London, but the Daily Mail Australia (heard of it? Nobody else has). Any mention in London media? (apparently not – how odd). We have a speech by Corbyn, (not quoted – of course), but referred to as if it is anti-semitic, which – of course – it isn’t.
And apparently you are all fervently opposed to anti-semitism, while practising and preaching identical hatred and intolerance directed not at Jews, but at a different sector of society. Apparently completely unaware of how crazy you appear to ordinary folk, and how closely you resemble those you detest. Fortunately, most ordinary folk are happily ignorant of your existence, and will remain so.
Meanwhile, another proud American, exercising his constitutional right to own a deadly weapon (what a privilege), slaughters a dozen of his fellow citizens. Not unusual – a hundred or so Americans in the home of the gun-lovers dies by gunfire every day. Was Richard Spencer there to report and be appalled? Any report from the Daily Mail New Zealand? No, of course not. Americans murdering Americans is apparently ho-hum. Let’s find a Muslim to horrify us instead. They are the ones who are violent and dangerous.
fideidefensorblog says
Do you even read the news about Islamic terrorism all over the world. You are basically a frog in the well or blissfully stick your head in the sand. If indeed the ordinary folk are like you, extraordinarily ignorant of what’s happening, then the world is truly doomed.
gravenimage says
Rod regularly sneers at Anti-Jihadists. He is not innocently ignorant.
Tuvia Fogel says
“Unaware of how crazy you appear to ordinary folk”. Unfortunately, you’re right, Rod. Lefties with the IQ of cactus plants, like you, are indeed today’s ‘ordinary folk’.
Felix Quigley says
Disagree. It is the British and Irish ruling CAPITALIST classes, and in the case of Britain Imperialist class, in which resides Jew Hatred, or the greatest levels of Jew Hatred.
What you call “lefties” are groups like Momentum, creations of capitalism, supported by capitalism, traitors to socialism, who are Antisemites supporting Corbyn.
In Ireland it is similar. It is the Irish ruling capitalist class who are mired in Antisemitism ever since the formation of the Free State and these small groups of revisionists of Marxism and of Trotskyism merely are mirroring that.
gravenimage says
Of course, Communism is as totalitarian as Islam–but Felix Quigley likes to pretend to us that it is not.
Felix Quigley says
This is indeed the point but it is the very opposite of what you say. There is a deep Antisemitism inside of the “Left” such as it is in Britain, Ireland and most countries. In Britain this Antisemitism is centred inside of the Labour Party and inside of the left Stalinist and revisionist Marxist and revisionist Trotskyist parties, plus anarchist groups.
An integral part in the ability of Corbyn to remain as leader is the support of the Umbrella Group called Momentum.
Today hatred of Jews IS hatred of Israel.
These are all servants of the British ruling class today. They have betrayed the principles of socialism.
Tell me what part of the British ruling class is not antisemitic. Even Churchill was often antisemitic and was especially hateful to Jews who wished to take the path of socialism and communism, which was their right, and is the right of anybody, then and today as well.
This type of Antisemitism which is on the left is mirrored by people on this very site, Jihadwatch, as I have shown.
gravenimage says
What Felix Quigley means is that he wants to violently impose the horrors of Communism on us. And no–objecting to this is not in any way antisemitic. In fact, Jews suffered greatly under Communism, especially in the Soviet Union. I worked with “Refuseniks” in the 1980s who were trying to flee to Israel.
gravenimage says
The always appalling “Rod” wrote:
What weird people must haunt this site. We have a report on events in London from – not London, but the Daily Mail Australia (heard of it? Nobody else has). Any mention in London media? (apparently not – how odd).
…………………………….
This is, of course, a lie–one that anyone can see is a lie by clicking on the link on the story above:
“EXCLUSIVE: British Jews in fear after pro-Palestine group supported by Corbyn forces Jewish shops to close with ‘campaign of intimidation'”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7087929/Pro-Palestine-group-supported-Corbyn-forces-Jewish-shops-close.html
This, as anyone can see, is indeed the Daily Mail UK–a major UK paper with Britain’s third largest circulation. And yest–the Daily Mail is indeed a London newspaper.
As for the Daily Mail Australia, this is just the Australian edition of the British Daily Mail.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/auhome/index.html
“Rod” has to to lie because he’s got nothing else.
More:
We have a speech by Corbyn, (not quoted – of course), but referred to as if it is anti-semitic, which – of course – it isn’t.
…………………………….
This is also a lie. This is what the article says:
“Earlier this month, it organised a rally in London which saw ‘open anti-Semitism from attendees’, according to the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism. A statement from the Labour leader was read out to the crowd. ”
This clearly refers to the antisemitism being from the crowd–the reference to Corbyn’s giving a speech is in a different sentence.
More:
And apparently you are all fervently opposed to anti-semitism, while practising and preaching identical hatred and intolerance directed not at Jews, but at a different sector of society. Apparently completely unaware of how crazy you appear to ordinary folk, and how closely you resemble those you detest. Fortunately, most ordinary folk are happily ignorant of your existence, and will remain so.
…………………………….
“Rod” has said similar things before–that our resisting violent Jihad is “bigoted” and “crazy”.
More:
Meanwhile, another proud American, exercising his constitutional right to own a deadly weapon (what a privilege), slaughters a dozen of his fellow citizens. Not unusual – a hundred or so Americans in the home of the gun-lovers dies by gunfire every day. Was Richard Spencer there to report and be appalled? Any report from the Daily Mail New Zealand? No, of course not. Americans murdering Americans is apparently ho-hum. Let’s find a Muslim to horrify us instead. They are the ones who are violent and dangerous.
…………………………….
“Richard Spencer” is a notorious neo-Nazi, antisemite, and white supremacist. He has nothing to do with Jihad Watch, of course, which is run by the civilized and peaceful *Robert* Spencer.
Of course, “Rod” knows this–but hopes that your don’t. Again, he cannot say anything of substance against Robert Spencer, so hopes to smear him due to sharing a surname and first initial with a nasty figure. How low can you get?
Rod says
My apologies, graven image. I’m not a fan of either of the Spencers, for reasons which should be obvious. If you say it should be Robert, that’s OK with me. But why isn’t he ranting and raving about the bloodshed in Virginia? Not enough Muslims involved? That must be frustrating for all of you.
As for the Daily Mail report, if it says Daily Mail Australia on its masthead (and it does), that’s good enough for me. Do you have any reports from the Daily Mail UK to show us? Why not?
Perhaps you’re not aware that The Daily Mail has been widely criticised for its unreliability, as well as printing of sensationalist and inaccurate scare stories, and for copyright violations, so to find it quoted on this site is hardly surprising, but not at all impressive.
Rod “cannot say anything of substance against Robert Spencer”. Well, I don’t have to. Plenty of others have already done so. But perhaps you don’t know. Do a bit of research.
Any more insults to offer?
The always appalling
Rod
carpediadem says
Hey Rod,
this site is about Islamic jihad, not about mass shootings.
If you think there should be a site about mass shootings set one up.
In the meantime, your nonsense has not derailed the message and info on this site at all.
thebigW says
Rod needs to get his glasses checked. “As for the Daily Mail report, if it says Daily Mail Australia on its masthead (and it does), that’s good enough for me. ”
There ain’t no “Daily Mail Australia” on no “masthead” at the link Jihad Watch gave:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7087929/Pro-Palestine-group-supported-Corbyn-forces-Jewish-shops-close.html
Rod says
“If you think there should be a site about mass shootings set one up.”
Hardly necessary, carpediadem, when we are so frequently told about mass shootings, carried out by American gun-lovers, in the everyday news. It seems to be an epidemic, calling for urgent action.
Strangely, the perpetrators are rarely, if ever, Muslims, and so often good Second Amendment loving Americans. I’m wondering why some JihadWatch fanatic doesn’t take it upon himself, as a public duty, to investigate. Have you perhaps got your priorities just a little bit out of kilter? Just asking.
Maybe you could look into it for us?
Rod
Frank Anderson says
Rod, there are several problems with your comment about firearms in the US.
1. There is a Constitutional Right for every law abiding citizen to keep and bear arms in the US, unlike any other country at the moment. Look how dictators and thugs run uncontrolled in the absence of an armed, law-abiding population. There is no corresponding Constitutional Right to own or operate a motor vehicle.
2. There are approximately 100,000,000 registered, many of them “insured”, motor vehicles in the US, with drivers supposedly “licensed”. More than 100 people a day are killed by those vehicles and “licensed” drivers, and many times that injured. Every one of those deaths and injuries is the result of some illegal act.
3. There are more than 300,000,000 firearms in the US. About 50 people per day are killed with firearms involved, many of those killings legal self-defense.
4. That makes motor vehicles, per unit, about 6 times deadlier than firearms.
Why don’t you advocate for banning motor vehicles? Because you don’t like guns and want people to be defenseless when you attack them. So did the Nazi’s, Communists and all other tyrants. In my county more than 1 in 10 adults are licensed to carry concealed weapons. Shootings happen, including those ultimately found to be self-defense. Compared to some war-zone cities, this is a peaceful place generally and most of the time. Having required a firearm for self-defense my entire adult life, I commend having them to every person who wishes to live a peaceful and law-abiding life.
gravenimage says
“Rod” wrote:
My apologies, graven image. I’m not a fan of either of the Spencers, for reasons which should be obvious. If you say it should be Robert, that’s OK with me.
……………………………
“Rod” *knows* that this site is not run by Richard Spencer.
And why is he not a fan of Robert Spencer? Because he opposes violent Jihad like the beheading of nuns and raping of children and mass slaughter of people at markets? There have been over 35,000 Jihad terror attacks just since 9/11.
Is it because he opposes the horrors of Shari’ah law like amputating the limbs of petty thieves and stoning rape victims to death?
Or is it because “Rod” hates freedom of speech, which Robert Spencer is a staunch advocate of?
Because these are Robert Spencer’s views. That “Rod” says his reasons for hating these things should “be obvious” is just sickening.
More:
But why isn’t he ranting and raving about the bloodshed in Virginia? Not enough Muslims involved? That must be frustrating for all of you.
……………………………
Actually, Robert Spencer has many times expressed his opposition to all types of violence, including all mass killings.
His focus, of course, is on Jihad terror attacks, because these are both done on the basis of the texts and tenets of Islam, and because they are mushrooming as more and more Muslims flood into the West.
But “Rod” appears to be fine with them–including these shop-keepers being threatened.
More:
As for the Daily Mail report, if it says Daily Mail Australia on its masthead (and it does), that’s good enough for me. Do you have any reports from the Daily Mail UK to show us? Why not?
I linked to this story at Daily Mail UK above–is this something that “Rod” missed? Of does he just hope that others here have?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7087929/Pro-Palestine-group-supported-Corbyn-forces-Jewish-shops-close.html
More:
Perhaps you’re not aware that The Daily Mail has been widely criticised for its unreliability, as well as printing of sensationalist and inaccurate scare stories, and for copyright violations, so to find it quoted on this site is hardly surprising, but not at all impressive.
……………………………
The same story has been reported by other sites. Note that “Rod” cite anything in this story that is not accurate.
More:
Rod “cannot say anything of substance against Robert Spencer”. Well, I don’t have to. Plenty of others have already done so. But perhaps you don’t know. Do a bit of research.
……………………………
Given that “Rod” had to cite a completely different person, it is again obvious that he’s got nothing.
More:
Any more insults to offer?
The always appalling
Rod
……………………………
“Rod’s” disgusting calumny pretty much speaks for itself.
Demsci says
Rod says:
“But why isn’t he ranting and raving about the bloodshed in Virginia? Not enough Muslims involved? “
I see the fairness of comparing all perpetrators and their motivations. Compare, by all means. Act like a judge and/ or a jury as in a process. But listen to the arguments of BOTH SIDES.
I myself see Robert Spencer as sort of Prosecutor, District Attorney in a fictitious trial against Islam, and PART, not ALL, of the Muslims, only those engaged in criminal or “bad” action and speech THEMSELVES.
I think that in today’s world Islam and part of or all Muslims have countless defenders, among their own faithful of course, but also among the infidels, aplenty. Corbyn among them.
The defense team for Islam and Muslims is immense. That side is not neutral but prejudiced in favor of Islam and Muslims.
Robert Spencer is indeed also prejudiced, against Islam and part of Muslims. But he does not pretend to be neutral. He indicts. He bases himself on Islamic scriptures, declarations of Islamic scholars, a lot of history and a lot of horrible news stories, from everywhere, not just from Daily Mail (a tabloid he despises).
He gives a bit of counterweight to huge propaganda of the Islam-defense. And invites you to think for yourself as if you are a judge or juror.
He helps the freedom of speech enormously against, let us say, huge odds.
Demsci says
Rod, anti-semitism very often is racist, focusing on a persons race rather than adherence to Jewish doctrine. At best it is opposing Israels conduct. But even in that it has enormous selection bias. For instance the criticism of Israeli’s killings Palestinians versus Syrians killing Syrians. While the latter is infinitely worse, the former is infinitely more criticized. And only proportional criticism for all perpetrators and proportional support for all Victims would be fair.
But with the determining factor that Jews are perpetrators and their “crimes” are meted out a 1000 times more while the scale is a 100 times less than egregious other cases, it seems extreme bias against them, and as a race, it seems clear to me. Because policy wise there are countless perpetrators that are worse, in past and present. so the extra attention on Jewish crimes is in my view racist.
The chance to be murdered in America was estimated 1 in 200. You may find this high and unacceptable, Rod, but it is so much less bad than in history as far it is known. And than in many contemporary countries. It looks like you compare the American society to a standard not reached anywhere. Or only in a number of modern countries, mostly western democratic ones.
But it is like using double standards to only criticize America while not mentioning the countries that are worse. Or the countries that do not even dare to publicize their data on murders. As if they were hiding some unpalatable truth.
Same standards for all humans, all nations please, Rod. No human, or nation is angelic and completely innocent
and when you fail to criticize some and overly criticize others, on same crimes, then it looks like you think the ones you criticize are sane adult humans, capable of change,
and the ones you don’t, who are no angels, them you see more like children or animals. And you don’t criticize them because no one in his right mind criticizes children or animals. But the ones you don;t criticize or not in the same measure, those are accountable humans who can change also, not apes. So give to all humans the same criticism on same crimes.
Demsci says
Meanwhile, adult sane humans who choose Islam, can IMO be held accountable for their choice. And so our criticism on them is certainly not racist. Any way there are Muslims in all races.
People who find us weird do not think their judgement through. And should not be complaining when the same thing happens to them, in judgements of them and their opinions by yet other people. Don’t jump to conclusions too soon. Investigate our arguments please.
Frank Anderson says
Demsci, I ask you to think about 2 issues:
1. Having been involved with the local Jewish community for almost 30 years, I am persuaded by all that I saw and heard there is no such thing as a Jewish race. People who follow the teachings of Judaism come from many if not most of the racial and ethnic groups worldwide.
2. Giving converts to islam the possible cover of being insane is in error. What “sane” person advocates all the various crimes of islam? To be muslim and not be killed for apostasy is to support all muslim teachings, and the examples set by the Perfect Man. What we consider “sane” is entirely different from the inherent evil taught and practiced by islam and all its adherents. An insane person is not responsible for his crimes. These people, all of them, are. See for example 18 United States Code Section 2, Anyone who aids, abets, counsels or acts in furtherance of a federal felony is equally guilty.
I ask you to think about this.
Demsci says
Hallo Frank. OK, thinking. Inclined to think that it may be true that there is no “Jewish race” as nobody seems to be able to see it in a moment’s glance. And considering your experience and (no doubt) deep thinking.
I am willing to no longer give the Israeli’s and official Jews their status of a race. And oh oh, thereby their right to Israel, Judea and Samaria. Willing to consider it. For me the determining factor to support is “democracy”, “enlightenment tenets”. As Democratic Atheist (as opposed to totalitarian atheist).
but then I wish that haters of Jews and Israeli’s do the exact same thing in NOT CONSIDERING THE RACE OF THE ISRAELI’S OR SELF-DECLARED JEWS.
But these haters do believe in the badness of the Jewish RACE and they set that RACE apart from all other sorts of humans.
and I wish to help protect the Israeli;s and declared Jews from their haters. who I know are capable of horrible violent crimes against them.
I think that outsiders view Jews often as a race, even if the Jews themselves are secular. And I think that there are no severe criticisms on JUDAISTIC theology, or actions of specific Orthodox Jews, living according to Judaistic tenets. Criticism on Zionism I consider almost totally bogus and unfair and yes, racist.
Demsci says
About nr 2; thinking about it. But at first glance; I even think I said much the same thing in the past. We must consider the choice of Islam as something to be held accountable for.
At least for sane adult humans. And we cannot frivously exonerate people on account of insanity. indeed that would be an insult to them, just like treating them as unaccountable as much as children or animals, say apes.
At least for being a Muslim, and coming to or living in a Western Democratic Nation. OK, in Islamic Nations it is much more natural to “remain Muslims” and “act as if”.
That means that we should have grounds for discrimination against Muslims, Who are clinging to Islam, well known to be anti-democratic, hostile to infidels and their whole societal system, Muslims who are inside or coming into Western Democratic nations.
Yes, all of those incoming, residing Muslims, even the ones that do not know one iota of Quran-Hadiths-Sira. That does n’t exonerate you for supporting totalitarianism, shariah, inside a Western Democratic Nation.
And good of you Frank to find that US code section.
I am against policy of ABI (Anything But Islam) though, this negative goal should be embedded in the positive goal of. Comprehensive Democracy ideology (promotion and preservation).
And I am in favor of distinguishing between those who know a lot about Islam and Democratic ideology and those who participate in the same discussion but do not know the basics of Islam and Democratic ideology.
And in favor of giving much more credence and trust to the knowledgeable, than to those who talk about Islam and Dem.ideology but do not know much about them (and sometimes even confess to that).
Frank Anderson says
Demsci, legal insanity as I understand means that the “accused” either does not know “right from wrong” or is unable to control his impulse to do wrong. All the teachings of islam are by non-Islamic standards “wrong”. I have read approximately 30 books and exchanged comments here for close to 3 years. I have yet to see or hear a single teaching from islam that agrees with anything I have heard in the Jewish or Christian communities who have hosted me. The general standard of law is that an insane person is not legally responsible for his crimes. The danger of that is the “defendant” is hospitalized until he is “certified” to be “cured” and no longer a risk to society.
If you search the California case of Tarasoff v. Board of Regents, decided just in time to be included in the law school casebooks when I started, I believe you will find such an inmate made clear that he would kill Ms. Tarasoff when he was released from the mental hospital, and did. He had been “certified” in spite of his violent musings. The State of California lost and paid millions in the lawsuit over his release and her murder. As long as one is muslim, the teachings of islam command his life. He may be “moderate” today when it is necessary and jump to “radical” at some provocation. But he will always support ALL of the teachings, even through supporting the “radical” acts of others.
Thank you for not being offended at my request.
Frank Anderson says
Demsci, please consider reading What is a Jew? by Rabbi Morris Kertzer, and Jews, God and History by Rabbi Max Dimond. These were the first books suggested by my Rabbi many years ago to understand the subject. I still have them and refer to them frequently. They are available on Amazon.
In the past I took great pride in inviting people to Friday night services. The teachings and practice of hospitality gave me great security that guests would be welcome and warmly hosted. I have no way to know how the Jewish community in your area would respond-hopefully in full accord with the teachings. Sadly, my local community has gone so far to the “left” (a term possibly invented by Josef Stalin) that anyone who dares speak the truth about the Religion of Peace is not welcome. That does not change my loyalty and appreciation for the friends and teachings I gained in their company.
I was highly impressed at the academic demands required of Rabbis. A PhD is 77 semester hours after a Bachelor’s degree. A JD is 88. A ThD is 4 years after a Bachelor’s; and a Rabbinical is 5 years. Please consider these books for better understanding.
Felix Quigley says
There is a strong element of antisemitism in this thread on Jihadwatch.
Frank Anderson writes above:
“I maintain the First Holocaust Deniers were those who never tried to get out; because they did not believe Hitler’s commitments. Many of them paid for their denial.”
You are calling Jews who perished in the Nazi Death Camps “First Holocaust Deniers”. Is this just stupidity or is it more a deep form of ignorance mixed with antisemitism on your part. How shameful to have that on Jihadwatch and not be taken up forcefully.
Frank Anderson says
F.Q. the first analytical step to solving any problem is to admit that a problem needing solution exists. My first personal contact with the Jewish community was almost 30 years ago. You may have a different rationalization for the inaction of half of Germany’s Jews, which is your right. I have mine, which is based on candor and is a direct conclusion fully justified by the facts. Those poor, misguided, tragic, people died without taking any action to reach a place where they would be safe. Some, more or less 100,000 full, half and quarter Jews, collaborated for some period of security and survival. Others just sat and died when their turn came. This failure to see and act is being repeated today. How much longer?
Felix Quigley says
You write along the same lines as before
“Others just sat and died when their turn came.”
No that is deep antisemitism right there. The Jews, not one, not a single one, did that.
Your line is aimed at placing the responsibility onto the Jewish people. They were not responsible for what happened to them int he Holocaust. They do not have one tiny atom of responsibility for what happened to them.
The responsibility lies with the forces of Jew Hatred in the world which has always been outside the control of the Jewish people, and is so today.
Felix Quigley says
Furthermore to suggest that the Jews were in the slightest way responsible for the Holocaust, as Frank Anderson says “The First Holocaust Deniers” is somewhat like saying the the Irish people in the Famine who starved in huge numbers at the sides of the roadsides were responsible for their fate.
In fact the Irish had no power and no say in what happened to them and there is a great similarity in that all they could do was somehow, anyhow, scramble for survival.
That is precisely what happened. They had no power.
They were struck down by a massive force which they did not understand and which they had no way of fighting against.
But remember that IBM, as representative of American Capitalism, provided the software on which the trains ran and which was responsible for guiding the trains secretly to the death camps.
So in all logic blame your American capitalism (make America Great Again) and not the Jewish people.
Felix Quigley says
It is another calumny to say that any Jews, even a single one, “collaborated” with the Nazis!
As you write
“Those poor, misguided, tragic, people died without taking any action to reach a place where they would be safe. Some, more or less 100,000 full, half and quarter Jews, collaborated for some period of security and survival.”
The Cambridge English Dictionary calls “collaboration” as “the situation of two or more people working together to create or achieve the same thing”
A person taken hostage by ISIS, as in the hostages marched along the Libyan shoreline, was in no position to “collaborate” and there is not one centimeter of difference to the actual position of the Jews before and during the Holocaust.
You do not “collaborate” in such situations. Jews in Germany and elsewhere were in that precise position.
Period? All along over a very long period but more precisely from 1933 when Hitler and his Nazis took the State Power in their hands.
In 1933 there were many in the British ruling establishment who were open backers of the Nazis and of Hitler in particular, up to and including the King of England.
But you blame the Jews!
Frank Anderson says
F.Q. you really need to do some research. Milch, credited with being one of the highest ranking officers under Goering in the Luftwaffe, and creating the air force for WWII, was Jewish. The Admiral who commanded the raider Atlantis was Jewish. One of Hitler’s closest personal bodyguards, Emil Maurice was Jewish. Hitler signed letters of “Aryanization” quietly for many Jews who served his purposes. Some collaborated willingly; others collaborated because it was necessary for them to survive and have some hope of protecting their families. “All rules bend as necessary for the preservation of life.” First Mitzvah, Maimonides.
Following adoption of the Nuremberg Laws the Nazi’s finally had to decide when a person would be defined as a Jew, they considered the rule followed at the time in the US for defining a black person: any black ancestor made one black, They considered that rule too harsh, and declared that 1 Jewish grandparent made one a quarter Jew. Two grandparents made a half Jew and 3 or more made a full Jew. By that definition there were according to the German census approximately 600,000 Jews in Germany. One Hundred Thousand, approximately, served in the armed forces, some in the SS, many with great distinction.
These statements and observations are from an episode of Hitler’s Collaborators series that has been broadcast several times, and supported by my reading of many history books on the subject. Be certain that I am not considered Jewish by the local Jewish community, in spite of Abraham being the first Jewish convert along with all who followed him into history and the Torah, my participating in many of the activities of the Jewish community for over 20 years, and claiming a Jewish mother-by-choice, who is no longer in this life. But none of that stops my support and sympathy including facing the truth about the past in hope of avoiding a repeat in the present and future.
History shows Isolation is the first step to destruction. Jews should be free to live, work and worship among all free civilized people as they wish, and still have a homeland for inspiration and refuge when civilization fails. Every society that has welcomed their presence has benefited. Every society that has resisted their presence has failed. Jews are truly Chosen People to carry a message from God. See, Jews, God and History, by Rabbi Max Dimond.
thebigW says
If Frank is sayin’ that Jews who were stupid enough to be part of the appeasers of Hitler, just like the Jews today who appease and defend Muzzies, don’t deserve our respect, I agree with him. That don’t mean we think they were guilty of what Hitler did to them. Stupid ain’t guilty; but it’s still stupid and can put lives and whole societies in jeopardy.
Frank Anderson says
TBW, I mean no disrespect whatever for the misguided people who did nothing to avoid their own slaughter and the slaughter of their families. Too many survivors whom I have personally heard talk about the hard-headed members of their families who were too delusional to take any action to save themselves. Please understand that while I am not considered Jewish, I have the highest regard for Judaism and its followers. The victims of the Holocaust paid a terrible price, which the survivors continue to pay, so that we can learn and not allow anything like that to happen again because we are too unfortunate, delusional, lazy, misguided, whatever word you may choose, to recognize and act on a known danger to us. Islam makes no secret that it is a death or slavery or both menace to all.
gravenimage says
Frank Anderson is very much an ally of Jewish people–he is just concerned that, just as many Jews were in denial during the rise of Hitler, that many, both Jews and Gentiles, are in denial over the rise of the threat of Islam today. There is *nothing* antisemitic about this–just the opposite.
Felix Quigley says
There is only one answer. Jews must be free to live in their own space on earth, and this is the historic area of Judea and Samaria where their Homeland goes back 3000 plus years.
Furthermore because of the total dominance in the world of Antisemitism the Jews must have the right to live alone, by themselves, and run their own affairs as they decide, without any outside pressure or influence.
This is not what has happened. Jews of Israel have been forced to live WITH their deadly enemy, and it is the “Palestinians” and “Palestinianism” which is their deadliest enemy today, and is the spearhead of Antisemitism.
As regards Corbyn, or AOC, I will tell them to butt out. It is not any of their business whatsoever. By butting in they are carrying on the Shoah into our times.
If the Jews of Israel decide that they wish to remove every Arab from their midst then that is their affair and they must be supported in this.
If the Jews decide to run a communist country, or a capitalist country, or a social democratic country, pray a thousand times a day, or any combination you could imagine, then that is all their affair and must be supported whatever they decide.
Respect the wishes of the Jews to run their state and existence as THEY decide.
As to the New Deal of Trump if he does not do the above, but meddles in the affairs of the Jews, then I will oppose him.
thebigW says
“the total dominance in the world of Antisemitism ”
this Felix feller is unhinged. It’s one thing to say that antisemitism is a problem and it’s growing; but that ain’t what ol’ Felix said.
Felix Quigley says
Gravenimage I disagree and you have provided a cover for the statements of Frank Anderson on this vital matter. The latest being that he quotes Jews in Germany who if what he says is true became Nazis.
That misdirects the argument.
He began by blaming the Jews for the Holocaust, or at least having a responsibility for their fate, because they did not fight, or escape, or whatever.
An American can become a hater of America. An Irishman can hate Ireland. So a Jew can become a Nazi. Whats the big deal here. Yet Anderson advances this in his latest.
The point which we must take is
1. The Jews were faced with massive Jew Hatred
2. They were alone
3. Their leadership, Judaism, a religion, was not equipped to fight Fascism, and Fascism was a new ideology previously unknown to anybody.
There must be not one tiny atom of blame placed on the Jews for the Holocaust. The responsibility is not in the slightest degree their responsibility.
The paragraph in support of Anderson by Gravenimage is itself interesting.
She writes:
“Frank Anderson is very much an ally of Jewish people–he is just concerned that, just as many Jews were in denial during the rise of Hitler, that many, both Jews and Gentiles, are in denial over the rise of the threat of Islam today. There is *nothing* antisemitic about this–just the opposite.”
Oh really! You say many Jews were in denial about Hitler and the Nazis.
How about turning that around and say that many Jews were fully aware of the dangers from the Nazis but did not know what to do or where to go? I do not talk about “Jews being in denial”…You do that! I talk about 99.9 per cent of Jews being fully aware of danger but that they were genuinely puzzled, as anybody would be by such a new phenomenon as Nazism.
How about turning this in another and more truthful direction and state that many Jews in Germany, Poland and Lithuania among others believed that Christianity was not bad, and that their Christian neighbours would protect them from the evil Nazis. After all the Christians teach love.
But the Catholic neighbours in Lithuania were the very ones who carried out the murders in the Lithuanian countryside in early 1941, not leaving a single Jew alive. The Nazis did not have to do it. The Catholic and Christian neighbours did the murdering.
Mr Anderson and Gravenimage…How could the Jews have ever for a single moment anticipated that turn of events?
I am very troubled by this business of talking about “Jews being in denial”.
Frank Anderson says
marc, I have started and lost 2 attempts to respond. Any idea what is happening?
Frank Anderson says
F.Q., there is plenty of responsibility to go in ALL directions. Most of the people and countries involved have much to wish they had done differently. Failing to learn from those nightmares means the people died for nothing. If we at least learn and avoid repeating the denial something will be gained by their sacrifice.
I do not make up what I write about denial. I have witnessed many Holocaust survivors speak about the common denial of danger that plagued their families to the last minute; barely permitting their escape and survival to speak for me to record them. I have most of them recorded in video files remaining after I made free of charge DVD’s for the local Jewish community. Today it is not just Jews but seemingly most people denying what was written 1400 years ago and practiced all over the world wherever islam has struck, killing between 250,000,000 and 1.000,000,000 human beings and enslaving no reasonable doubt many times more. That is greater than 12 times the number Hitler is estimated to have killed in his reign of terror. If you question that, have you read the koran? I suggest a more meaningful start would come from reading Spencer’s Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, and Bill Warner’s Abridged Koran. The standard koran is published in order of the longest chapter first, and loaded with repetition and material irrelevant to kafir/infidels, making it almost indecipherable to normal reading.
Like you, the local community got angry, not just angry but furious, that the truth should be spoken about islam’s 1400-year commitment and campaign to exterminate Jews and all other “un-believers” they join Hitler in regarding as “sub-human” (kafirs)
.
The history of collaboration with Nazi’s is readily available if you will look. Your denial of a well-documented historical fact is just another refusal to face the truth. Some Jews wanted to serve their country in spite of Hitler’s goals (“My country right or wrong”). Others supported his goals. Still others did what they had to do to survive. Many have been interviewed for posterity.
There is a legal concept taught in the first few weeks of the first year of law school called “negligence”. It is described as 1) a duty, 2) a breach of that duty, 3) an injury giving cause for damages to be awarded, 4) the breach of the duty being the proximate (legally recognized) cause of the injury and 5) damages. Part of the discussion that is included in that study is what happens when more than one person causes the harm, especially the plaintiff (the person claiming the injury) and the defendant (the person accused of the injury).
That is where the issues of “Contributory” and “Comparative” negligence and “Assumption of Risk” are discussed. In some states, far fewer than long ago, when the plaintiff contributed in the least degree to his injury he could not recover damages from the defendant. That harsh rule has been softened in most states by comparing the fault of the plaintiff and defendant to apportion the damage award according to their relative participation in the injury. Assumption of Risk or sometimes Contributory Fault is a defense when the plaintiff knowingly encounters a danger with a chance to avoid injury.
I write frequently a quote from the 9th Circuit case, Wyle v. R.J. Reynolds 709 F.2d 585 (1983). “Deliberate ignorance constitutes knowledge of the truth.” When the local Rabbi at the Synagogue blew up at my truthful statement about islam, I accepted it was time to move on. If you refuse to open your eyes to see what is happening around you and your mind to make decisions for your future, that is your choice, as did the approximately half of German Jews who did nothing. “There are NONE so blind as those who refuse to see.” Good luck to you and those you hold dear. You appear to be proving the wisdom of Jorge Santayana’s observation, “Those who cannot remember the lessons of the past are condemned to repeat them.”
gravenimage says
Among reams of other verbiage, Felix Quigley wrote:
How about turning that around and say that many Jews were fully aware of the dangers from the Nazis but did not know what to do or where to go?
……………………….
I have written about this here many times–what an odd thing to say.
More:
I do not talk about “Jews being in denial”…You do that!
……………………….
No one said that Felix Quigley brought it up–just that he was condemning Frank Anderson for bringing it up.
More:
I talk about 99.9 per cent of Jews being fully aware of danger but that they were genuinely puzzled, as anybody would be by such a new phenomenon as Nazism.
……………………….
No, not all Jews were aware of this–and many who were concerned still thought that this would be like previous pogroms, that could be waited out if Jewish people just kept their heads down. You can easily see this in accounts from the time.
The main reason I believe that Frank brings this up is that so many people are similarly in denial about the threat of Islam. History does repeat itself in many ways, and many do not learn from it.