Colm Fitzpatrick in the Irish Catholic offers an argument from authority, which is the weakest of all arguments: Christians and Muslims worship the same God because the Catholic Church’s Second Vatican Council says so. But a closer examination of the evidence shows this to be false. Besides the obvious differences regarding the Trinity, the crucifixion, and the divinity of Christ, there are deeper differences that are often overlooked.
1. Free will. There are numerous passages of the Qur’an, as well as indications from Islamic tradition, to the effect that not only can no one believe in Allah except by his will, so also no one can disbelieve in him except by his active will. “And to whoever God assigns no light, no light has he” (24:40).
The issue of free will versus predestination has, of course, vexed Christians of various sects for centuries, as different biblical passages are given different weight in various traditions. Calvinism, of course, in its pure form is notorious for its doctrine of double predestination, the idea that God has destined people for hell as well as for salvation. But this position is largely unique to them in the Christian tradition, which generally holds that God desires all men and women to be saved, and gives them the means to attain this salvation. The idea that God would create men for hell is in total conflict with the proposition that God “desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), and that he “takes no pleasure in the death of anyone” (Ezekiel 18:32).
The situation in Islam is, on first glance, even worse, with the Qur’an’s testimony on this, as on other matters, appearing to be hopelessly contradictory. The Qur’an, says the Qur’an, is “nothing but a reminder to all beings, for whoever of you who would go straight; but you will not do so unless Allah wills, the Lord of all Being” (81:27-29). Those who would “go straight” — follow Allah’s straight path — cannot do so “unless Allah wills.”
The Qur’an goes significantly further than that, into a more or less open determinism: “If Allah had willed, he would have made you one nation; but he leads astray those whom he wills, and guides those whom he wills; and you will surely be questioned about the things you have done” (16:93). Even though everything is in Allah’s hands, even the decision of the individual to obey him or not — for he leads astray those whom he wills, and guides to the truth whom he wills — human beings will still be held accountable for the things they have done.
Allah even sends people to hell based not on their deeds, but solely upon his fiat: “And if we had willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from me will come into effect: I will surely fill hell with jinn and people all together” (32:13).
The Qur’an repeats this idea many times: Those who have rejected Allah do so because he made it possible for them to do nothing else. And indeed, given the fact that in the Islamic scheme of creation and salvation, human beings are the slaves of Allah, not his children, the rejection of free will is not altogether surprising. Allah tells Muhammad that “some of them there are who listen to you, and we lay veils on their hearts so that they don’t understand it, and in their ears heaviness; and if they see any sign whatever, they do not believe in it, so that when they come to you they dispute with you, the unbelievers saying, ‘This is nothing but the fairy-tales of the ancient ones’” (6:25-6).
Elsewhere in the Qur’an Allah describes this veil as a seal and as a barrier, saying to his prophet: “As for the unbelievers, it is all the same to them whether you have warned them or have not warned them, they do not believe. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a covering, and there awaits them a mighty chastisement” (2:6-7). The medieval Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir (1301-1372), whose commentary on the Qur’an is still enormously influential among Muslims, says in his commentary on this Qur’anic passage: “These Ayat [verses] indicate that whomever Allah has written to be miserable, they shall never find anyone to guide them to happiness, and whomever Allah directs to misguidance, he shall never find anyone to guide him.”
At first glance this may seem to be not far from Jesus’ words: “This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: `You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them’” (Matt. 13:13-15).
And indeed, Islamic tradition shares with Christian tradition the idea that repeated defiance of God can render one’s soul insensitive to grace. That appears to be the case in many passages of the Qur’an, such as one recounting the reaction of hypocrites to a new revelation that Muhammad has delivered: “And whenever a sura is sent down, they look one at another: ‘Does anyone see you?’ Then they turn away. Allah has turned away their hearts, for they are a people who do not understand” (9:127).
But in Islam there is more. Another Qur’an commentary explains Qur’an 36:9 as meaning that Allah has “covered the insight of their hearts (so that they see not) the Truth and guidance.” Ibn Kathir records that one early Muslim also ascribed unbelief to Allah’s will: “Allah placed this barrier between them and Islam and Iman [faith], so that they will never reach it.”
Other Qur’an passages state this explicitly. “We have created for hell,” Allah says in a Qur’anic passage that directly echoes the statement of Jesus’ quoting Isaiah, “many jinn and men: they have hearts, but do not understand with them; they have eyes, but do not perceive with them; they have ears, but they do not hear with them. They are like cattle; nay, rather they are further astray. Those — they are the heedless” (7:179).
Despite the superficial similarity of the “eyes but see not and ears but hear not” motif, there is an immense chasm between this and the statement of Jesus, which most exegetes throughout the ages have taken to mean that some people harden themselves so in unbelief that when they hear the truth of God, they do not recognize it as such. In the Qur’anic passage, by contrast, Allah says that he actually created some people (as well as the mysterious spirit beings known as jinn) for hell — a doctrine that is hard to reconcile with the idea of a just and loving God.
In Islamic theological history, a party known as the Qadariyya tried to advance the concept of individual free will. The pioneering Islamic scholar Ignaz Goldziher explains that the Qadaryya were protesting against “an unworthy conception of God,” and yet they “could not find a large body of supporters” among Muslims. Their opponents “battled them with the received interpretation of the sacred scriptures.” And won. Ultimately, Muslim authorities declared the concept of human free will to be heretical. A twelfth-century Muslim jurist, Ibn Abi Ya’la, fulminated that the Qadariyya wrongly “consider that they hold in their grasp the ability to do good and evil, avoid harm and obtain benefit, obey and disobey, and be guided or misguided. They claim that human beings retain full initiative, without any prior status within the will of Allah for their acts, nor even in His knowledge of them.” Even worse, “their doctrine is similar to that of Zoroastrians and Christians. It is the very root of heresy.”
2. The nature of the soul. The Christian concept that mankind’s alienation from God is manifested in an inclination toward sin is utterly alien to Islam. In Islam, although Adam and Eve begin in Paradise and are banished from it after their disobedience, and Satan vows to tempt the believers, ultimately even this is a manifestation of Allah’s active will. In the Qur’an, it is only Allah who inspires in the soul both “wickedness and righteousness” (91:8). The world-renowned Pakistani Muslim political leader and theologian Syed Abul Ala Maududi (1902-1979), who wrote a popular and influential commentary on the Qur’an, explains that this verse means that “the Creator has imbedded in man’s nature tendencies and inclinations towards both good and evil.”
That means that Allah is ultimately responsible not just for the soul’s inclination toward good, but for its inclination toward evil as well. In other words, in sharp contrast to the Christian understanding that evil is the rejection of God, in Islam God is the source of evil. This is worlds apart from the proposition that “God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all” (I John 1:5) — for to place evil in the soul, Allah must have it to give, which would be utterly impossible and absurd in the Christian conception, since evil is the absence of God.
3. The nature of God. No limits can be placed upon the sovereignty of Allah, the absolute monarch. That includes ones that would naturally arise from his being always good and true. Allah, the Qur’an says twice, is the best of “schemers”: “And when those who disbelieved plotted against you to restrain you or kill you or evict you. But they scheme, and Allah schemes. And Allah is the best of schemers.” (8:30; cf. 3:54). In this “scheming,” Allah has no limitations whatsoever. Indeed, at one point the Qur’an excoriates the Jews for suggesting limits to God’s power. The passage is ambiguous, but its principal import is plain enough: They dared to say that there was something Allah could not do: “And the Jews say, ‘The hand of Allah is chained.’ Chained are their hands, and cursed are they for what they say. Rather, both his hands are extended; he spends however he wills” (5:64). Neither does he have any obligation to disclose any consistency or anything else in what he does: “He shall not be questioned as to what he does” (21:23).
What could the Jews have possibly meant, if any Jews ever said it at all? It is possible that they meant that God, being good, would be consistent, and would operate the universe according to consistent and observable laws. This would not have been so much a limitation on what God could do, but upon what he would do. This proposition of divine consistency was all-important for the development of scientific inquiry. “The rise of science,” observes social scientist Rodney Stark, “was not an extension of classical learning. It was the natural outgrowth of Christian doctrine: nature exists because it was created by God. In order to love and honor God, it is necessary to fully appreciate the wonders of his handiwork. Because God is perfect, that handiwork functions in accord with immutable principles. By the full use of our God-given powers of reason and observation, it ought to be possible to discover those principles.” That process of discovery became the foundation of modern science. “These were the crucial ideas,” says Stark, “that explain why science arose in Christian Europe and nowhere else.”
Indeed, for an Islamic culture to have affirmed that God’s creation operates according to immutable principles would have been nothing short of blasphemy. Allah’s hand is not chained by consistency or by anything else. Allah is absolutely free to do anything he wills to do, without any expectations or limitations deriving from logic, love, or anything else. This idea made sure that scientific exploration in the Islamic world would be stillborn.
So would philosophical investigation. The great Islamic theologian Al-Ghazali (1058-1111), although himself a philosopher, delivered what turned out to be the coup de grace to Islamic philosophy, at least as a vibrant mainstream force, in his monumental attack on the very idea of Islamic philosophy: Incoherence of the Philosophers. Muslim philosophers such as Avicenna and Averroes, according to al-Ghazali, were not intellectual trailblazers worthy of respect and careful consideration. In positing that there could be truth that was outside of or even contradicted what Allah had revealed in the Qur’an, they had shown themselves to be nothing more than heretics who should be put to death and their books burned.
And while Christians hold that God is unchanging, the Qur’an affirms Allah’s changeability, even in what he reveals to mankind: “We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?” (2:106).
These three points are hardly ever considered when this question comes up. But they show the affirmation of the Vatican II documents Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate to be wholly false.
“Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?,” by Colm Fitzpatrick, The Irish Catholic, August 1, 2019:
…The Vatican II document Lumen Gentium makes this clear when it reads: “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (16)
But while the Church teaches that both religions worship the same God, an important distinction must be made, namely that our conception of God is different. Muslims, for example, don’t believe that Jesus was the Son of God or hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. This doesn’t mean that Muslims aren’t referring to the same God, only that they have a different sense of who God is….
The famous Church document on religious unity, Nostra Aetate, lucidly sums up this perspective.
“The Church regards with esteem also The Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.
“Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honour Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the Day of Judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.” (3)
So, while Muslims and Christians have different conceptions of God, the deity they worship is the same.
Mirta says
Certainly not!!!…
Marked says
These desert devil worshippers are baal’s people, unleashed in the dark ages like a parasitic virus that attempts to overtake its host. These devil worshippers who ‘submitted’ to Satan are ‘people of the Book’ only so far as that they are the Philistines and evil desert dwelling successors.
charles ford says
Catholics need to realize and understand their church follows a fales or anti christ. The god over that is Satan. Just like allah is also a similar manifestation. The god of Catholicism and Islam is not God but Satan masquerading as God.
Keys says
Have you ever read the Nicene Creed that Catholics profess ?
Are you saying that the God they profess there is Satan ?
Like P. Francis, you got some ‘splainin’ to do.
gravenimage says
More absurd anti-Catholicism.
OVV says
Spot on, gravenimage.
Lavéritétriomphera says
The division of Christendom is a tragedy and a weak point.
gravenimage says
Thank you, OVV and Lavéritétriomphera.
mike9a says
“They adore the one God”, is where the similarities start and end. Period.
Islam_Is Islam says
On Feb 11, 2013 Pope Benedict renounced the ministerium–the ministry–not the munus–the Papal Office; therefore, Benedict is Pope. The debacle of Francis can likely be resolved by individuals from around the world requesting an examination of the renunciation speech. Resolving the debacle that is Vatican-II in another matter. Even if you have no connection to the Catholic Church, please consider requesting and encouraging others to request an examination since there is truth in the axiom, “As the Church goes, so goes the world.”
SweetOlBob says
Having spent the formative years (Grades 1 – 8) in parochial school, and being immersed in religion as well as education, I am sickened by seeing the spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic faith even being in the same country with filthy muslims. The Church teaches that the Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals.This display of puking, gagging, acceptance and promoting of filthy muslims is neither !
The political posturing of this guy from the Vatican, and his foot kissing and asz kissing display of tolerance to a bunch of the filthiest people on earth, as I said, sickens me.
It’s time for The Council of Cardinals to replace this embarrassment so the people faithful to that religion don’t have to hang their heads in shame !
Cicero says
An excellent article regarding the doctrinal differences and interpretation of God which sets apart the Muslims from the Christians. Although they are both Abrahamic faiths having their genesis in Judaism itself .
Unfortunately not just the Catholic head but the English Protestant high prelates are ingratiating themselves with the fierce and ferocious Islam – gong on “inter Faith “ hikes, rambles, jogs and walks to demonstrate their shared Abrahamic vision of humankind.
The U.K. lacks leadership in this area.
Michael Copeland says
Interfaith in Sharia law manual, “Reliance of the Traveller”, w4:
“It is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions such as “Christianity” and “Judaism” are acceptable to Allah….”
CRUSADER says
Now there is an excellent book,
I first thought Bill Warner, being a Southern gent, had encouraged me to read it because it was about General Lee and his horse Traveller !
By the way, anyone recommend a qualified ARABIC TRANSLATION of the King James Version or NIV print of THE BIBLE ?
Best translation of the Qur’an so far is from Arabic speaking Usama Dakdok.
Yet it would be good to find an accurate Arabic BIBLE to suggest to Arabic speakers who are open to learning about Judaism and Christianity.
Me says
One is demon based… One is Holy Father based. There is Only 1 HOLY God… It many gods (idols)
mortimer says
A superb theological article by Robert Spencer.
To this same question of whether Jehovah and Allah are the same deity, I point out that Allah was unaware of his ‘ETERNAL NAME’ mentioned in the Bible 6823 times.
The name of ‘Jehovah’ is ‘eternal’ and cannot be changed. A true prophet uses the name of ‘Jehovah’, therefore Mohammed was a false prophet and Allah a false invented god.
Exodus 3:15,16:
15 And God said moreover unto Moses: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.
Exodus3.15 I am who I am. Eternal name.
Isaiah 43 I am YHWH the only savior of the world
Isaiah 42 I am YHWH that is my name I will not give my glory to another.
Deut 18 Every prophet must come in the name of YHWH
mortimer says
Jehovah and Allah are different gods. Muslims *CONFLATE* the two deities by ignoring the differences in divine attributes, names, ultimate goals and criteria used by the two deities.
Michael Copeland says
The Islamic State muslims, when destroying the tomb of St Elian, said they did so because it was dedicated to a god other than Allah.
CRUSADER says
Bones of saint ‘found in ruins of monastery destroyed by ISIS’
Associated Press 5 April, 2016
The bones of a saint have reportedly been discovered among the ruins of a monastery in the Syrian town of Qaryatain, which was recaptured from ISIS.
Photographs taken of the ruins of the Mar Elian (St Julian) monastery appear to show a destroyed sarcophagus containing a skull and bones.
The photographs, taken by Channel 4 News reporter Lindsey Hilsum, show bones laying on the ground amid rubble. The remains are thought to be those of St Julian, who was martyred in 284 AD for refusing to deny his faith.
An Associated Press crew was among the first journalists to enter Qaryatain and witnessed the destruction wrought on the once-thriving Christian community and its fifth-century monastery, which was bulldozed by the extremist group last summer.
Once a cherished pilgrimage site, much of the St Elian monastery had been reduced to a pile of stones.
Escorted by the Syrian government, the AP crew was allowed to venture only about three kilometres inside Qaryatain, located 125 kilometres north-east of Damascus, because army experts were still clearing explosives and mines left by the group.
Black smoke billowed from the western side of town where skirmishes continued. Near the central square, some residential and government buildings were completely destroyed, their top floors flattened. Others had gaping holes where they had taken direct artillery hits or were pock-marked by gunfire. Electricity poles and cables were broken and shredded; a snapped tree hung to one side.
On Sunday, a week after taking back the historic town of Palmyra from ISIS, Syrian troops and their allies recaptured Qaryatain. Aided by Russian airstrikes, the advance dealt yet another setback to ISIS, depriving the extremists of a main base in central Syria that could eventually be used by government forces to launch attacks on ISIS-held areas near the Iraqi border.
Soldiers were visibly buoyed Monday by their successive battlefield victories.
“We will soon liberate all of Syria from the mercenaries of the Gulf and Erdogan,” said one soldier, referring to Gulf countries and the Turkish leader who have been strong supporters of the rebels fighting to topple President Bashar Assad.
Qaryatain lies midway between Palmyra and the capital, Damascus, and was once home to a sizeable Christian population. Before ISIS took it over last August, it had a mixed population of around 40,000 Sunni Muslims and Christians, as well as thousands of internally displaced people who had fled from the nearby city of Homs.
As it came under militant attack, many of the Christians fled. More than 200 residents, mostly Christians, were abducted by the extremists, including a Syrian priest, Fr Jack Murad, who was held by the extremists for three months.
During the eight months that Qaryatain was under ISIS control, some Christians were released and others were made to sign pledges to pay a tax imposed on non-Muslims. Some have simply vanished.
Days after the militants publicly beheaded an 81-year-old antiquities scholar in nearby Palmyra last August, the militants posted photos on social media that showed them leveling the St Elian Monastery with bulldozers. They also trashed an ancient church next to the Assyrian Christian monastery, and desecrated a nearby cemetery, breaking the crosses and smashing name plates.
The church’s doors and windows were blown out and its interior appeared to have been used by the militants as a workshop for manufacturing bombs and booby traps, its floor littered with gas canisters, metal kettles, coffee pots and blue pails.
Scrawled in blue paint on the church’s exterior stone wall was a verse from a 19th-century Egyptian poet known as the Poet of Islam: “We faced you in battle like hungry lions who find the flesh of the enemy to be the most delicious.” It was signed: “The Lions of the Caliphate.”
Another wall was sprayed with the words “Lasting and Expanding,” ISIS’s logo. It was dated August 15, 2015.
A Syrian soldier showed journalists an ID apparently left behind by an ISIS militant from the nearby town of Mheen. It was stamped with the words “al-Dawla al-Islamiya,” or Islamic State.
The officer said the Syrian army would now turn east to capture the next IS-held town of Sukhneh, on the road between Palmyra and Deir el-Zour near the Iraqi border.
Meanwhile, Pentagon press secretary Peter Cook said the US carried out an airstrike late Sunday on a senior al-Qaida “operational meeting” in north-west Syria that resulted in “several enemy killed.” He said the US believes a senior al-Qaida figure, Abu Firas al-Souri, was at the meeting and “we are working to confirm his death.”
The SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors jihadi websites, said al-Souri died in the US strike, which targetted the headquarters of Jund al-Aqsa, an extremist group that fights alongside al-Qaida’s Syrian affiliate, the Nusra Front. Al-Souri was the former spokesman for the Nusra Front, the group reported on social media Monday.
The strike killed at least 21 militants in Idlib province, a jihadist stronghold in northern Syria, the London-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.
Military officials said over the weekend that the US killed an ISIS fighter who was believed to be directly connected to the attack in Iraq that killed Marine Staff Sgt Louis F. Cardin about a week ago. Cardin, of Temecula, California, was killed by rocket fire at a base near Makhmour.
Cook said Monday that Jasim Khadijah, a former Iraqi officer and a member of ISIS, “played a role in the rocket attacks” that killed Cardin.
John Michael says
If both faiths worship the same G_d why does the Malaysian Supreme Court ban non-muslims from using ALLAH as G_d remember Malaysian has the world largest Muslim population?
Save Europe says
I dislike Islam with a passion, but forgive me. Indonesia does.
gravenimage says
Good question, John.
janwog says
The Abrahamic fallacy and Vatican 2
https://www.newenglishreview.org/Mark_Durie/The_Abrahamic_Fallacy/
Antiislamicman says
No we don’t worship the same God, Allah is the devil. Jesus is Lord. Amen!
Martyman39 says
Not as far as the Jews are concerned.
No Muzzies Here says
There is only one God. There cannot be both a God and an Allah. The pope thinks they are one and the same.
By kissing an imam on the lips, he has shown that he is totally out of his mind, and had better get the mouth wash.
Rhonda says
Bout lost my breakfast after seeing the photo…fudgepackers ALL.
Lydia Church says
Great analysis Robert!
There are so many ways in which it is proven that it is NOT the same God. You can go down and line up the Bible with the koran (or any other religion for that matter) and see that they are all very different gods from the one true God of the Christian Bible.
This conflation is all part of the one world religion emerging. Just like the overlapping antichrist figures I mentioned yesterday, all the supposed ‘gods’ of the false religions will overlap into one in their one world religion. Of course God will not be in the conglomeration, but they think he will be. It’s all the devil’s deception and the one world religion will be lead by the antichrist. It’s all because people think they can make God in their own image, they can define him in their own imagination instead of looking to the Bible. The Bible makes it clear, God has a Son! allah doesn’t. That is a glaring contradiction you can’t brush under the rug. But today’s mentality is that of no eternal absolutes, it’s all warm and fuzzy, mushy subjectivism, your ‘truth,’ my ‘truth,’ etc. Red, blue, 2+2 =4 or 1 or 3, hey! What difference does it make anyway… right?! …is their thinking. No logical consistency exists and it’s all whatever the heck they want it to be… or so they think. They are sadly mistaken of course, but good luck convincing them of that. They think they can define their own reality all the way up to the nature of God. But they can’t.
The deceivers want to muddy the waters and gray over the distinct lines, all in the name of ‘peace.’ So folks will deny and compromise their beliefs to ‘get along’ and even avoid penalties. Secret societies have fallen prey to the deception of lucifer, and claim to have been ‘illuminated’ or ‘enlightened,’ etc. but it is the false ‘light’ of the devil. These remarks by his puppets are all stepping stones along the way to their goals. One of their claims is that ‘all is god!’ But nothing is god except for God.
So NO, it is NOT the same God!
CogitoErgoSum says
Life is a journey down a road that contains an endless number of forks leading to different destinations. Each fork leads to another fork and another and another. God knows where each fork will lead because He is the creator of all things and He exists throughout all of space and all of time (space-time). Everything that is, was, or ever will be exists (it’s already “there”) but we have the ability to travel through it all and experience it all as if we are traveling down a road. This is basically the alternate-worlds theory of the universe.
God is consciousness and we are created by the Supreme Consciousness in its image. God has free will and so do we in order that we may choose which branch of the road to take as each branch comes up before us. That’s why we are here — to make choices. Where each choice will lead is known to God since God made the roads and knows what lies along each road but God gave us the ability to choose which road we take. God does not predetermine which choice we make.
There is a “house” at the end of our journey through the maze of branches but the choices we make along the way determine which house is there at the end of our trip when consciousness leaves the body. That’s my theory. It seems closer to Christ’s explanation than to Muhammad’s.
lebel says
“That means that Allah is ultimately responsible not just for the soul’s inclination toward good, but for its inclination toward evil as well. In other words, in sharp contrast to the Christian understanding that evil is the rejection of God, in Islam God is the source of evil. This is worlds apart from the proposition that “God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all” (I John 1:5) — for to place evil in the soul, Allah must have it to give, which would be utterly impossible and absurd in the Christian conception, since evil is the absence of God.”
Have you read your bible?
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7
So Yahwe the Father creates evil but his son who is also God has nothing to do with it?
Can you at least acknowledge that there are obvious similarities here between Judaism and Islam? Because your readers have no clue that you are trying to single out Islam as uniquely evil while glossing over similarities with Judaism (a religion which this site defends tooth and nail through weird cognitive acrobatics but that’s another story)
FYI says
@lebel
Have you read your koran?
allah tells you muslims to CONSULT those who know the Bible k10:94
alalh CONFIRMS the Bible k3:3
allah condemns muslims who attack the Gospel k5:47 which he claims he gave to Jesus k5:46
Nice try lebel but you see..
allah CONTRADICTS the 2 chief commandments by..
1.Teaching muslims it is OK to violate God’s Exodus 20 laws
{the violation of the First Chief Commandment LOVE OF GOD manifested through OBEDIENCE to His Laws}
2.Telling muslims NOT to “Love thy neighbor”
“oh ye who believe!Take NOT the Jews and Christians for friends”
k5:51
{the violation of the Second Chief Commandment LOVE OF OTHERS along with islam’s HATE DOCTRINE al walaa wal baraa and the arrogant muslim belief they are superior to non-muslims}
Do you see how if LAH teaches the OPPOSITE to the Biblical Judeo-Christian God that means he is false,a deceiver…which indeed he is as he calls himself a champion deceiver k3:54
No chance,eh?
The Two chief commandments are defined by Jesus thus;
“The WHOLE LAW of Moses and all the prophets DEPEND on these two chief commandments”
Matthew 22 v 37-40
These laws are found in Judaism and Christianity.
It seems your pagan Arab god LAH {“the BEST of deceivers” k3:54}aka baal
COMPLETELY MISSED THEM.
Why?Because..
the koran=the book of baal
On the basis of the PRESENCE of the 2 chief commandments in Judaism and Christianity,these authentic Biblical religions are linked and have much in common.
On the basis of the ABSENCE and violation of the 2 chief commandments in islam and the koran,this fake inauthentic non-Biblical religion has NOTHING in common with Judaism and Christianity.
lebel says
That very well may be but I was addressing RS’s statement which is reproduced below:
“That means that Allah is ultimately responsible not just for the soul’s inclination toward good, but for its inclination toward evil as well. In other words, in sharp contrast to the Christian understanding that evil is the rejection of God, in Islam God is the source of evil. This is worlds apart from the proposition that “God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all” (I John 1:5) — for to place evil in the soul, Allah must have it to give, which would be utterly impossible and absurd in the Christian conception, since evil is the absence of God.”
To which I replied:
“Have you read your bible?
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7”
To recap, RS says that In Islam God is the source of evil and I have provided evidence from the bible which states quite clearly that God creates evil. So which is it?
Again, I am answering an article posted by Robert Spencer. So if you find fault with the evidence I provided please let me know.
CogitoErgoSum says
This is what I’m trying to discuss. God is the creator of everything. Evil is “there” but only exists for those who observe it and choose it. Does that make sense? Not completely, I know, but I think that is what the Bible is talking about, just as quantum physics talks about things existing and not existing at the same time.
Rev. G says
Lebel, the verse you quote is a poor translation. Looking at the first portion, you see that it involves converses. In creating light, darkness becomes apparent. Before the light, it was undefined, there was no corollary. Same with good/evil.
Sorry, you fail.
Angemon says
“That very well may be but I was addressing RS’s statement which is reproduced below:
“That means that Allah is ultimately responsible not just for the soul’s inclination toward good, but for its inclination toward evil as well. In other words, in sharp contrast to the Christian understanding that evil is the rejection of God, in Islam God is the source of evil. This is worlds apart from the proposition that “God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all” (I John 1:5) — for to place evil in the soul, Allah must have it to give, which would be utterly impossible and absurd in the Christian conception, since evil is the absence of God.”
To which I replied:
“Have you read your bible?
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7””
And this is where the dishonesty begins – in one of those religions offers the concept of “free will”, in the other everything happens because allah wills it… Of course, saying “God created evil” is not the same as as saying “allah decided which people would be good and which would be evil”.
This is sloppy, even by your standards…
gravenimage says
I imagine lebel reads his Qur’an with great frequency…
lebel says
What took you so long?
gravenimage says
As always, sneering is not denial.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@lebel,
Think for yourself !
The title of the article is: “No, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God”.
As Catholics we do not care about the Old Testament, we believe in the New covenant.
God is the father/creator, the friend of the humankind and Jesus is our elder brother, our spiritual guide.
lebel says
Fine but Christians believe they worship the same God as the Jews don’t they? So God the father cannot be swept under the rug as it were while we all do our best to ignore problematic verses.
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Lebel,
“Fine but Christians believe they worship the same God as the Jews don’t they?”
As a man raised a Catholic I believe the deity exceed all understanding, and cannot be defined in human terms, so I do not view God father as Muslims, my perception of the divinity/truth can only be evolutive. Therefore the old covenant is no longer relevant.
Catholics believe in a living God/companion who advise them through the Holy Spirit.
The Gospels are testimonies and the divine revelation is not finished.
Catholics believe Jesus Christ is still alive, and that he will return at the end of times.
CRUSADER says
Question:
“Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?”
Answer:
Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil?
There are two key facts that need to be considered.
(1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.
(2) The context of Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9).
That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.
Recommended Resource:
“ Deliver Us from Evil:
Restoring the Soul in a Disintegrating Culture “
by Ravi Zacharias
CogitoErgoSum says
Christians believe in the same God as the Jews. The Christians expand upon the meaning of God. I don’t believe Christians say that the Jews have gotten God all wrong. Muslims tell the Christians and Jews they have everything wrong. It seems to me Christianity takes Judaism a step beyond where it started and Islam takes it a step back … way back. Before St. Paul convinced St. Peter and the other Apostles to think otherwise, the first Christians believed a person had to become a Jew before becoming a Christian.
CRUSADER says
Question:
“Did God create evil?”
Answer:
At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.
Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.
God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.
As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.
Recommended Resource:
“ If God, Why Evil?: A New Way to Think about the Question “
by Norman Geisler
carolyne says
Looks like the Pope and his pal should get a room.
People here are saying that Muslims do not worship the same God as do Christians, which seems to indicate there is more than one God and at least two. For myself, I believe in neither but the dichotomy is interesting.
CogitoErgoSum says
Maybe it’s not that there are numerous gods but there are numerous perceptions of God. Also, there are numerous liars in the world and control freaks who think they know it all and try to force their will upon others. It’s the forcing part that gripes me.
carolyne says
Yes, there is little worse than preaching Jesus to a person who doesn’t want to hear it. Believe what you wish. You do not have the answer anymore than I do.
CogitoErgoSum says
My reading of the gospels is Jesus would talk and whether or not people listened to Him was up to them. He gave His followers the option of leaving Him at any time they wanted. He gave Judas every opportunity not to betray Him but in the end he allowed Judas to do as he wanted. I agree with you that forcing people to sit through a sermon that they don’t want to hear is just not right.
CRUSADER says
Ravi Zacharias visualized for us a man from another culture who walked into a movie cinema for the first time and didn’t know to look at the screen. He heard sounds and saw flashes of light on the wall. For him, that experience was an amazement to behold. He was told to go again to the cinema to do it correctly! Whereupon he sat down in front of the screen for the first time and took in the picture show for what it was meant to present CLEARLY.
THAT, according to Ravi Zacharias, is what Christianity represents — a clarity which no other religion gets across to us!
AleX says
Looking at the photo where two old men perform kiss on lips.
A non church-going Christian in me is outraged.
Looks like the pope goes unhinged and lip kisses a male religious leader only to prove how inclusive his preferences are.
I think only muzzies are pleased with that caption.
Quran Hate Speech says
Muslims emulate a man that broke all the Ten Commandments. They claim to worship the same God, they clearly don’t. The Quran often contradicts itself, which means the Allah god can’t make-up its mind. There are over 60 scientific inconsistencies found the “most perfect” book of the Quran, which means Allah is a dumb-ass. The Bible was written by individuals inspired by God/Jesus and doesn’t claim to be the “perfect word” of a god. Nor did writers of the Quran research family lineages and history correctly.
If you live in northern latitudes and try to celebrate Ramadan you will starve to death, but 1400 years ago the world was flat. Praying 5x a day is a waste of your day, nothing gets accomplished. Imagine praying 5x a day all because of a book that is more hateful than Mein Kampf, and is more genocidal than the human sacrifices of the Aztec or Maya. Why does Allah allow the infidels to be more scientifically/technologically advanced than the Muslim world?
CRUSADER says
That’s true!
Can someone delineate how each Commandment was broken by Mohamhead?
Rarely says
Great discussion. It’s always interesting It always surprises me when people try to redefine what the phrase “all-powerful” means and similarly claim to understand that which cannot be understood — the infinite. Then there is the inevitably ridiculous final position: “What I believe is true and whatever anybody else believes is false”. Proof certain for each belief is THE BOOK which is the basis of their particular religion. I believe that, whatever G-d’s traits may be, He, She or It has a very good sense of humour.
Rarely says
BTW. How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?
Keys says
That was not debated by “Middle Age” theologians, if that’s what you are getting at. Show me the source where it was expounded, please.
Kepha says
While you are probably asking in bad faith and sitting in the seat of the scornful (Psalm 1:1), I’ll venture an answer to the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin.
As many or as few as you want. Angels are spirits rather than material entities. I believe that is the gist of the medieval Schoolmen’s answer. BTW, I am not Roman Catholic and have some issues with the Scholastics, but a double predestinarian, covenantalist old school Reformed (“Calvinist”) believer.
Sincerely,
The notorious Uncle Kepha.
CRUSADER says
Simplistic, Rarely.
Rather simplistic stuff from you.
Clearly you haven’t put much effort into learning
by studying the Gospel at a personal level.
CogitoErgoSum says
Look up the Schrodinger’s Cat thought experiment and the quantum physics double-slit experiment. Does just one possibility exist before an observation is made? Did consciousness arise from the existence o the universe or did the universe arise from a consciousness that existed before it? Can science and religion exist together?
Rarely says
You pose some interesting questions. Perhaps there are some problems that are too vast for our limited minds. The creation of the Universe would be one such problem.
CogitoErgoSum says
My theory is that the consciousness was here first and the universe came about as a result of it … and we will never be able to explain what consciousness is except to think of it as coming from God. It’s inexplicable.
CRUSADER says
Awful thing to do to a cat!
Mohamhead would be upset!
gravenimage says
No., he wouldn’t. The story that Muhammed loved his cat came from an Infidel source–the Cat Catalog, from 1977. I have not been able to trace this story–about the “Prophet” cutting the sleeve off his robe so as not to disturb his sleeping cat while he prayed–back any further than this.
This book has anecdotes and cute cat stories from all over the world. My guess is that they had nothing from the Middle East, and so just made this story up. Notably, this is the *only* story from the Muslim world.
CRUSADER says
Well, … Constantinople is still teeming with felines, who seem to be well looked after.
Contrasted with how Muslims treat dogs….
gravenimage says
CRUSADER, Istanbul is full of stray cats–this is not really a sign of their being well cared for.
But yes–Islam is even more hateful towards dogs.
Walter Sieruk says
Some of the total falsehoods and lying Islamic propagandists, that even pope Francis, takes part in is the false claim that the god of Islam is the same god as the God of the Bible.
For the God of the Bible is not really Allah the god of Islam. To explain, through the passing of time it has become widely accepted that the word “Allah” is just the Arabic word for God. This started when truth compromising Bible “translators” substituted the word Allah where the word God should have had been uses in the Arabic translation of the Bible. Furthermore, in the glossary in the book ASSASSINS! By Dr. Haha Lung it defines Allah as the “Pre-Islamic Lunar god : the god of Islam. “ Likewise, in the book entitled INSIDE ISLAM by a former Muslim who is now a Christian, Reza F. Safa on pages 22, 23 it reads “In pre-Islamic times both Allah –worship and Baal-worship involved the worship of the sun, the moon and the stars which h defines them as astral religions. [Which are condemned in the Bible, Second Kings 23:5] The crescent moon, which was the symbol of moon worship, is also the symbol of Islam.” In conclusion the Islamic god, Allah, is not the God of the Bible.
The words in brackets are my own. In addition other some other books that expose this little known truths are WHO IS THIS ALLAH ? by G..J.O.. Moshay also UNVEILING ISLAM by Ergun Mehmet Caner and Emir Fethi Caner and THE ISLAMIC INVASION by Robert Morey . There is also PHILISTINE by Ramon Bennett and ANSWERING JIHAD by Mabeel Qureshi
CRUSADER says
Interesting you mentioned this, as the Templar’s were rather fascinated by the Man of the Mountain! :
Assassin!
The Deadly Art Of The Cult Of The Assassins
by Haha Lung
From the shadows of the ancient Middle East comes the terror known as the hashishin, an order of professional assassins that evolved from the ancient and infamous Brotherhood of the Blood-Lickers. No group has had a more lethal influence throughout history than this fraternity of trained killers. In this unique and astonishing book, Dr. Haha Lung not only traces the complete history of the hashishin, but explains the rules of Islamic warfare and the true concept of jihad. Also included in graphic detail are proven fighting and self-defense techniques, including:
Fist and Fire
Assassin Unarmed Combat
The Nine Blows of Vanna
Movement Patterns
The hashishin cultivated every method at their disposal to deal with their enemies, and Assassin! gives you every shred of information about their well-honed methods.
For academic study only —
Dr. Haha Lung is the author of more than a dozen books on martial arts, including Mind Manipulation, Ninja Shadowhand, and Knights of Darkness.
Walter Sieruk says
First, the god of the Qu ‘ran and Islam is not the same god and the God of the Bible and Christianity. As Allah is likewise the god Baal is.
Second, , In the Bible it gives the account of the Prophet Elijah declared “If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal be ,then follow him.” First Kings 18:21.[N.K.J.V.] In other words follow one of the other. Not both.
Third, , many people say that the God of the Bible and the god of Islam are one the same. Is the majority always right? That’s not always the case. As an example the Christian pastor and scholar, Michael Youssef, who is also an Arab in his book entitled JESUS, JIHAD AND PEACE on page 69 informs the reader that “The name Allah comes from pre-Islamic times, and it corresponds to the Babylonian mane Bel or Baal. According to the Middle East scholar E.M. Wherry, pre-Islamic Arabs worshiped gods they called Allah. Both pre-Islamic Allah-worship and Baal –worship involved worship of the sun, the moon and the stars, which is why they are called astral religions. The crescent moon, the symbol of pagan moon worship, is also the symbol of Islam. It is printed on flags of many Islamic countries and placed atop minarets and mosques.” Likewise, a former Muslim who is now a Christian, Dr. Daniel Shayesteh, who used to live in the Middle East but now he lives in America . In his book ISLAM AND THE SON OF GOD. On pages 7,8. Reads “Allah is the generic term for God in many Middle –Eastern cultures. Allah is identified as one of the 360 or so idols worshiped by the Arabian people for centuries before Muhammad was born. Many do not know that Allah was the good god of the Arabians. This explains the crescent moon found on minarets and mosques and the flags of Muslim nations. .. .Historic writings also identify Allah with Baal.” It’s also worth mentioning that the Bible condemns such astral religions. As in, for example, Second Kings 23:5.
Therefore, now in modern times, it may be rightly said “If Yahweh Lord of the Bible , be the one True God follow Him. Yet if Allah the lord of Islam be the one true god then follow him.” The case is very clear cut.
Walter Sieruk says
An error that this is ignorance and foolish is awful That is many times declared by a number of apologists for Islam, some are imams and mullahs and strangely enough, even some so called “Christian” priests and pastors, who don’t really obey the instruction of the Bible against such folly, as in Ephesians 5:11.II Timothy 3:16. Those “Christian” clerics have even made the outlandish claim that Christians and Muslim both believe in and worship the same God. So it stands to reason that it’s important to know if this claims valid and true or invalid and false. The facts are that the god of Islam or the Muslims is a single being. In great contrast the God of Christianity, of the Christians consists as the Trinity. By the Trinity it means that “Within the essence of the one True God there are Three Persons. Being God the Father. God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Not three gods in one But Three Distinct Persons in One God. Being the Tri-Personal Nature of God, Matthew 3:13-17. Second Corinthians 13:14. . The Bible teaches, the Father is God, Galatians 1:1.The Son is God, First John 5:20. The Holy Spirit is God, Acts 5:3,4. Not three gods but the one and only Triune God.
As further explained in the Christian book MAJOR BIBLE THEMES by Lewis Sperry Chafer on page 39 which informs the readers that “Many believe that the doctrine of the Trinity in implicit in the use of the word Elohim, as the name of God which is in a plural form and seems to refer to the Triune God. “ Likewise, in the Christian magazine PERHAPS TODAY November/December 2013 on page 8 it reads about Genesis 1:1. “In the beginning God [this is the plural noun Elohim, meaning ‘more than one’] created the heaven and the earth.” Furthermore, a bit of a view of the inner workings of the Trinity together may be seen in that the God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 10:9,10. Jesus raised Himself from the dead, John 2:19,20. The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, Romans 8:11.The inner-workings of the Trinity of God may also be seen in the fact that the Father sanctifies, First Thessalonians 5:23. The Son sanctifies, Ephesians 5:26. Hebrews 2:11; 9:12,14;13:12.The Holy Spirit sanctifies ,Romans 15:16. Second Thessalonians 2:13. Getting back to the Bible book of Genesis. In Genesis 1:26 in reads “The God said let US make man in Our image , according to our likeness…” The words are the plural “Us” and “Our.” As in “We the Trinity” For the very next verse, 27, it further reads “So God created man in His own image…” In verse 26 it’s the plural “Us” and “Our” to the singular “His” That is Three Persons in One God. In addition, in the New Testament in Matthew 28:19 It further reads the Jesus said “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the the Son and the Holy Spirit.” [N.K.J.V] That is “name” not “names.”
In conclusion the many apologists and propagandists for Islam for Islam who make the claim that Christians and Muslims believe in and worship the same God are make an untrue and outright false claim. For the God of Christianity, Christians and the Bible is not the god of Islam Muslims and the Koran.
Rarely says
Interesting but where does the Rain God fit? Can’t forget him.
CRUSADER says
Was that interesting to you, simplistic Rarely?
Really?
Sarcasm?
All that work written by Walter Sieruk
and that’s all you can come up with?
lebel says
“The Qur’an repeats this idea many times: Those who have rejected Allah do so because he made it possible for them to do nothing else. ”
Interesting similarities found in the bible:
“The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”
Thessalonians 2:9-12New International Version (NIV)
It appears that God is the one sending the delusion which will make men believe the lie.
CogitoErgoSum says
Maybe He sends the delusion but we decide what to believe is true.
lebel says
Fair enough but we are far from the lovey dovey God RS is presenting us. This is much more complex than we’re led to believe.
CogitoErgoSum says
That’s a good point. Knowing both good and evil and choosing between the two is what I think it’s all about. That’s the story of Adam and Eve and that’s the story of Jesus. Make a choice. I can do that without fear of physical death in Christianity but not so much under Islam. Just let me make my own choice. Jesus let people make a choice and didn’t kill them for it; Muhammad did kill people for their choices.
gravenimage says
Muslims regularly slaughtering Infidels for not believing in Allah is *so* complex!
That Jews and Christians do not do this is very complicated, as well…sarc/off
CRUSADER says
God doesn’t send delusions, that’s only done by the grand deceiver — Shaytan and his foolish and foul follower Mohamhead
lebel says
Fine, then it’s a “bad” translation or it is badly interpreted. All the things you won’t allow Muslims when they answer questions on problematic verses and hadiths.
Angemon says
Oh, no – someone pointed out something objectionable about islam? Quickly, lebel to the rescue, armed with sand and a fan!
“It appears that God is the one sending the delusion which will make men believe the lie.”
Which is not the same as saying “there people believe such and such because allah does not allow them to do something else”, is it?
lebel says
Well we have a being of pure love….that forces men into delusions and the belief in the lie of evil. Does not sound like pure love to me and if this was a verse from the Koran you would be all over it.
CRUSADER says
What’s so bloody amazing? about thinking you’ve found similarly between the Bible and Koran, lebel, when Islam is just plagiarizing from other scriptures and myths and fables blended into a sordid mixture only a confused mind could make sense from!
Muslims never understood the Bible to begin with!
Muslims were too busy forming an ideology to fit their avaricious nature stemming from the vile and worthless Bedouin culture, which is only pertinent to preying by raiding on the labors of others and surviving by one’s broken teeth in an arid wasteland.
———————————
God does not send a lie but simply confirms those who do not wish to believe the truth. God is not responsible (i.e., culpable) for those who go to hell. For it is because of their rejection of the Gospel that they eventually end up there, not because of God’s negligence. The context of this passage reveals that man has already rejected the Gospel of Christ. Paul says that when the Antichrist comes, he will come with signs and false wonders with all deception of wickedness (2 Thes. 2:8–10). These things happen for “those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (v. 10). When God sends the deluding influence, Paul says He does so in order “that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (v. 12). They have chosen to reject God rather than to accept His provision of salvation. God is not sending the lie to trick people, but He sends delusions to reveal human depravity in which they choose evil over good.
Thessalonians 2: 11 —-
“And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie…”
And for this reason —
Because people did not love the truth that God might save them (2:10), God sends them a “strong delusion.” God will not send them a “strong delusion” until they make it clear that they have gone into negative volition toward the gospel. The choice of error over truth is serious business because it leads to deep delusion.
God will send them strong delusion, —-
The word “delusion” means wandering. These people wander off the right path of truth into paths of religious invention. The people led astray roam all over the place in religion.
“Delusion” is stronger than deception. Deception means that a person can be fooled about something. Delusion is a way of life in which one is perpetually deceived. People under delusion harden their heart permanently.
The word “strong” is the same word we found in 2:9 in the phrase “the working of Satan.” The New Testament always uses this word for supernatural working.
that they should believe the lie —
When people “believe the lie,” God consigns them to a state of delusion. This is the lie of verse 4 that the man of lawlessness is God. People in the Tribulation cannot take a neutral stand. Either they believe God or they believe the lie. God will ultimately give people in the Tribulation exactly what they want–to believe the lie. “The lie” is the opposite of the truth of Jesus and His death on the cross.
Principle:
Ultimately, God will give non-believers what they want.
Application:
People given over to lies will enter strong delusion. God will give them over to their volition, their heart’s desire of believing the lies of Satan. People say they want truth but they really want Satan’s lies. They have a vested interested in believing lies.
God gave Pharaoh what he wanted (Exodus 7:14; 9:12). God will give us over to what we truly want (Romans 1:18-32). If we truly want hell, God will give it to us.
https://versebyversecommentary.com/2-thessalonians/2-thessalonians-211/
gravenimage says
lebel wrote:
Well we have a being of pure love….that forces men into delusions and the belief in the lie of evil.
………………….
Well, this is grimly hilarious from lebel. lebel in fact constantly condemns Anti-Jihadists for being able to recognize the evil of Islam.
Angemon says
“Well we have a being of pure love….that forces men into delusions and the belief in the lie of evil. Does not sound like pure love to me”
Take it to your precious islam.
“and if this was a verse from the Koran you would be all over it.”
If this wasn’t islamic doctrine you would have explained, in great detail, how wrong we were… In any case, does your dishonesty knows no bounds? First of all, you’re simply moving the goalposts now, trying to go from “islam teaches such and such” verses in the quran”. Islam is more than the verses in the quran, it is also the life and examples set by muhammad. Second, on his commentary, RS points to several quranic verses who say just that:
Again: plenty of quraic evidence. Dishonest much?
CRUSADER says
Culture Watch:
Difficult Bible Passages:
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Whenever Scripture discusses end times scenarios we must take great care. Much of the apocalyptic genre as found in Daniel and Revelation can be laden with mysterious symbolism and so on which can be difficult to accurately interpret.
And even somewhat more straightforward discussions of eschatology in Scripture can still be difficult to fully understand. So care and humility is always vital as we deal with such passages. The particular verse I wish to discuss here is fully embedded in one such end times text.
The verse I wish to discuss is this: “For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie”. The bigger context of this passage is a discussion of the ‘man of lawlessness’ in 2:1-12. Simply trying to identify this man can be a full time job, and plenty of options have been suggested over the years.
— delusion —
The New Testament itself does not offer a precise identification of this character, so again, some caution is needed here. But the more immediate context of v. 11 is found in verses 9-12:
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
————————
My intention here is not to even presume to seek to identify who this lawless one is, or when and where he might appear. My concern is more specifically to deal with the notion of God sending strong delusion. Is that something we expect a good God to do?
Is this not problematic for the believer who believes that God is a God of truth? Does our God actually delude? That will be the focus of this article: how we are to understand such sending of delusion. The first thing that can be said is we have in Scripture various causes mentioned for things that happen. A divine cause is often offered, but secondary causes can be mentioned as well.
Generally speaking – especially in the Old Testament – the sovereignty of God is so stressed that secondary causes do not get much attention. Satan himself is only mentioned a few times in the OT. But we have one classic passage where God does something, but we see responsibility being shared around.
I refer to the case of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart as found in the book of Exodus. Around a dozen verses discuss this hardening, and we get at least three different takes on this. Many of the verses say that it was God who hardened Pharaoh’s heart (eg., 7:3; 9:12; etc.). Sometimes the verses state that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (as in 8:15, 32). And sometimes the text simply says that his heart was hardened, without saying who was behind it (eg., 7:13, 14, 22).
So here we have a clear case of divine/human interplay.
Sometimes God is said to be behind the hardening, sometimes Pharaoh himself, and sometimes we just read about the hardening. This of course takes us to the huge theological issue of the interplay between divine sovereignty and human responsibility.
And of course as we especially find in the New Testament, a third party comes into play much more prominently: Satan. So in the Thessalonians passage we have a mix going on as well. As David Williams comments, God can use various things to serve his purposes, “(e.g., the lying spirits in the mouths of the false prophets, 1 Kings 22:23; Ezek. 14:9; cf. esp. 1 Chron. 21:1 with 2 Sam. 24:1 where the same action is attributed to Satan as to God)”.
He, like many other commentators, reminds us that Paul states in 2 Cor. 4:4 that it is Satan who blinds “the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ”. Thus in 2 Thess. 2:9-12 we see all three parties involved: God, who sends strong delusion; Satan, who uses deceptive signs and wonders; and the condemned, who choose to reject the truth, love wickedness, and thus believe a lie.
So it is not just a case of God deluding people, but of him working even with Satan and rebellious mankind to achieve his purposes. Just as God simply confirmed Pharaoh in the direction he had chosen for himself (that of a hardened heart), so too God confirmed the unbelief of these people and simply allowed them to go the whole way they had chosen.
….
CRUSADER says
….
As Ben Witherington comments:
In a sense Paul is saying that God allows those who refuse to love the truth to have the consequences of their choice, confirming them in their obduracy. This is more than just a matter of God judging or punishing sin with sin (Deut. 29:4; Isa. 6:9-10). It is a matter of God giving people up to a debased mind, God saying, “okay, if you insist, have it your way, including the consequences of such a choice.” Here we have an example of God not only allowing sinners to violate his will but allowing them the consequences of those violations, which ultimately means judgment, condemnation.
Or as G. K. Beale puts it,
God righteously sends delusion because it is a beginning part of his just judgment. . . . Paul confirms this in 2:10 and 12: God causes these people to be deluded because they refused to love the truth and so be saved and because they have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Our text thus pictures the completion of the process portrayed as having begun in Romans 1:18-31 (see also 1 Kings 22:18-23).
The Romans 1 passage is certainly quite important in our understanding of the Thessalonians text. It too speaks about the rejection of truth, believing a lie, and delighting in evil. Gene Green says this of the Thessalonians passage:
Since they did not receive the truth of the gospel, God sends them confusion so that they cannot distinguish between the truth and the lie and, in the end, they believe the lie as if it were the truth. As strange as this kind of judgment may seem to us, it is in harmony with the biblical witness, which shows the way God gives sinners over to the very sin and error they have embraced (Ps. 80:12-13; Rom. 1:24, 26, 28; 11:8; 2 Tim. 4:4).
Lies and evil go together like truth and goodness do. They cannot be separated. Jesus made it clear in John 3:19-21 that people loved the darkness (lies) and rejected the truth because their deeds were evil. When we cling to sin and evil, we will always reject and despise the truth,
Let me conclude with some remarks from John Stott who, as is so often the case, presents us with theologically astute yet imminently practical comments for our consideration. He too makes the connection (as Paul does of course) between truth and goodness, lies and evil:
It is of great importance to observe that the opposite of ‘believing the truth’ is ‘delighting in wickedness’. This is because truth has moral implications and makes moral demands.
Evil, not error, is the root problem.
The whole process is grimly logical. First, they delight in wickedness, or ‘make sinfulness their deliberate choice’ (NEB). Secondly, they refuse to believe and love the truth (because it is impossible to love evil and truth simultaneously). Thirdly, Satan gets in and deceives them. Fourthly, God himself ‘sends’ them a strong delusion, giving them over to the lie they have chosen. Fifthly, they are condemned and perish. This is extremely solemn teaching. It tells us that the downward slippery path begins with a love for evil, and then leads successively to a rejection of the truth, the deception of the devil, a judicial hardening by God, and final condemnation. The only way to be protected from being deceived is to love goodness and truth. These, then, are the dynamics (devilish and divine) which lie behind the final rebellion.
So instead of taking umbrage at God and accusing him of doing things we think he ought not to do (eg., sending delusion), we need to see the big biblical picture of how sin and rebellion compound and multiply, with more sin and deception resulting, until truth is rejected, lies embraced, and God rejected.
God can only confirm such folks to their own fate. But while folks are not so far down that path, this passage serves as a powerful warning: don’t get to that place. Repent and turn from sin now. That is our hope. But to reject God and his truth condemns us to God’s just judgment.
We need to be making wise decisions now, before it is too late.
++++++++
Art Telles says
Hi Robert,
You are right on the mark. Jews, Christians, and Muslims absolutely do not worship the same God. An important distinction concerns the ability to generate… a single “son”.
Son vs. No Son
Muslims, according to Muslim “scholars”, do not believe that “their” Allah/God can generate anything, not even a single son.
Jews believe that “their” God ( YHWH / Adonai / HaShem) is the creator God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Moses, David, etc., who can become one with his creation (e.g., “Emmanuel, God with us”), and that the “son” of God will come, finally, some day in the future when humans, i.e., the “children of Jacob/Israel”, accomplish what they must, which, in addition to living a sanctified life and NOT EVER AGAIN following other “gods”, includes building another temple and finding the right animal with the right color to start the sacrificial system again.
Christians believe that “their” God (YHWH / Yahawah / Yahweh / Jehovah / etc.), who said to NOT have other “gods” before him, which simply means instead of him (see Ex. 20; Dt. 5 – which means that other “gods’ existed then, 3500 years ago, c. 1500 B.C.E, and exist today in the 2000s), that he is the ONLY creator God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Moses, David, etc., and that he not only can become one with his creation but that he has already “become one with us” in the person of his only generated son, Yahawasha’ / Jesus. See the “genesis” words – the “conceive in your womb” – words of the angel Gabriel in Luke 1:31.
So, it is true, Muslims do not worship the same “allah/god” as YHWH, the ONLY creator and the ONLY “God” of Jews and Christians.
Baruch hashem YHWH / Yahawah et ben Yahawasha’
Bless the name of YHWH / Yahawah and his son Yahawasha’
Art
lebel says
“CogitoErgoSum says
Aug 9, 2019 at 2:14 pm
This is what I’m trying to discuss. God is the creator of everything. Evil is “there” but only exists for those who observe it and choose it. Does that make sense? Not completely, I know, but I think that is what the Bible is talking about, just as quantum physics talks about things existing and not existing at the same time.”
Or it could be that good can come out of evil and that’s why it was created. The Talmud talks about carrying a lamp in broad daylight. I
CRUSADER says
Lamp-lighting Christ: “know the tree by its fruit.”
Good comes from Good.
Evil comes from Evil.
Muslims practice Hate because Islam is Death
and Mohamhead was a bandit.
Christians practice Love because God is Light
and Christ is Life.
“Comparison Between Christianity and Islam” – Jay Smith
( — more like a clear CONTRAST !)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsi2to-Aw_Q
CogitoErgoSum says
Maybe we should say it’s why the “possibility” for us to choose evil was created.
CogitoErgoSum says
Yes, the good comes only when we reject evil. Maybe we should say that good will help us overcome the effects of evil whenever we choose evil and then regret it. But we always have to decide what is good and what is evil and I think that is a personal decision.
CRUSADER says
Relationship with God is intensely PERSONAL because of the personage of God, and we are in God’s image!
This is why it is tremendously important to read Scripture and the Gospel on a personal basis, and then to share the good news.
It is the devil and the demons which influence our free will toward sinning (separation from God) rather than winning (communion with God).
+ + +
lebel says
“Rev. G says
Aug 9, 2019 at 2:35 pm
Lebel, the verse you quote is a poor translation. Looking at the first portion, you see that it involves converses. In creating light, darkness becomes apparent. Before the light, it was undefined, there was no corollary. Same with good/evil.
Sorry, you fail.”
A poor translation? OK so KJV is unreliable. By the way, the Muslims get to use that argument from now on since there are multiple meaning to most of their Arabic words. Agreed?
Now let’s look at the Orthodox Jewish Bible
I form ohr, and create choshech; I make shalom, and create rah; I Hashem worketh all these things.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+45%3A7&version=OJB
So rah means evil or as you say some other undefined thing. Let’s see where we find that word again.
Here is Genenis 2-17 on the tree of Good and EVIL
But of the Etz HaDa’as Tov v’Rah, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the yom that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Again rah
Genesis 13:13 – The evil of the men of Sodom
But the men of Sodom were ra’im and chatta’im before Hashem exceedingly.
Kings 16:30
And Ach’av Ben Omri did rah in the eyes of Hashem above all that were before him.
Which translates to “and Ahab the son of Omri did evil in the sight of the Lord above all that were before him.”
Again, it looks like it’s EVIL but maybe it’s a disagreement over translations. Whatever the case, it is NOT as clear cut as it is made to be.
CRUSADER says
lebel, see earlier replies….
Kepha says
Many note that the “I create evil” from Isaiah is best understood as “I create calamity” (e.g., the invasions of the Assyrians and Babylonians that came on Israel and Judah).
As for Ahab doing evil in the eyes of God above all that were before him (I Kgs. 16), I think that’s a fair thing to say about someone who led his nation to abandon the true God for a false one and who schemed to have a man murdered in order to steal his vineyard. As with English or Chinese, words in Hebrew can cover a number of shades of meaning.
lebel says
“Jesus let people make a choice and didn’t kill them for it; Muhammad did kill people for their choices.”
OK but wrong choice and you burn in hell for eternity, agreed?
CRUSADER says
Repent, lebel.
Repent !
+ + +
There is good reason why Jesus said that John the Baptizer was the best and most important of prophets.
There is good reason why the Templar Order revered John, with images of his head displayed as reminders for them in their castles and fortresses and commanderies.
+ + +
lebel says
Repent for what? by the way, isn’t your name Crusader? that does not sound like pure love and peace,
gravenimage says
How *dare* you filthy Infidels defend against Jihad! If your were “real” Christians you would lay your throats on our swords–right?
CogitoErgoSum says
Maybe, but you also have to define what you mean by “burn.” Is it really by fire or by something else …. like a burning feeling of regret that you could have had something better but missed your chance? I don’t really know. It’s something that will happen after this life ends. Nobody in this life should be the one who does any burning of people.
lebel says
There’s disagreement but certainly it seems like some kind of pain for a very long time is the punishment for unbelief.
CRUSADER says
Separation from God eternally will be experienced as pain with no comparison !
lebel says
“And this is where the dishonesty begins – in one of those religions offers the concept of “free will”, in the other everything happens because allah wills it… Of course, saying “God created evil” is not the same as as saying “allah decided which people would be good and which would be evil”.
This is sloppy, even by your standards”
Here we go, the Angemont method to immediately go for ad hominems. It’s OK we know you don’t have much in terms of arguments beyond moving the goalpost.
Right, so you’re going to explain to me how evil is the absence of God but God creates it. Go ahead. Or the usual ad hominem attacks?
Here is what RS wrote : “for to place evil in the soul, Allah must have it to give, which would be utterly impossible and absurd in the Christian conception, since evil is the absence of God.”
So God created evil but he does not have it? what nonsense you allow yourself
CRUSADER says
Try your flat nosed 8 mm full metal jacket bullet
on me, lebel…
Evil is where God is rejected.
Evil foments from that point.
See above remarks from earlier in posting thread.
I’ve got a quiche Loraine and some champagne awaiting me….
Angemon says
“Here we go, the Angemont method to immediately go for ad hominems.”
He said, in a response conveniently located away from the unfolding argument, and leaving out the part of my post where i point out where he is dishonest.
I’ll reiterate: you are dishonest. You claimed this:
I pointed out that Mr. Spencer’s commentary gave several quranic verses proving it. I also pointed out that you were moving the goalposts. Seeing your reply is accusing me of ad hominems while ignoring the points I made just drives my point home – you re dishonest, plain and simple.
“It’s OK we know you don’t have much in terms of arguments beyond moving the goalpost. 2
You and the voices in your head? In any case, this is just projection – it is you, as I have demonstrated, who are trying to move the goalposts.
“Right, so you’re going to explain to me how evil is the absence of God but God creates it. Go ahead.”
What does that have to do with the point I made about the verses in the quran regarding alla creating people just to send them to hell? Nothing, that’s what.
Again: there was plenty of quranic verses stating what you implied it was not mentioned in the quran. You are a dishonest person, plain and simple. You are also a hypocrite, seeing how you cry about ad hominems even though you’re not above insulting people.
GreekEmpress says
Worship the same God?
Not even close.
gravenimage says
The vicious Islamic deity has almost nothing in common with the loving God of Jews and Christians.
ronyvo says
grave, not ‘almost’ nothing, but entirely and completely nothing. allah of the Muslims is Satan. The Muslims keep saying that they despise the Devil, however the Koran is full of contradictions and that is one of them.
lebel says
What’s interesting is that Orthodox Judaism considers Islam are real monotheism whereas Christianity is not. Case in point, Jews can pray in Mosques but not in Churches.
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4016144,00.html
I’ll let you guys stew on that for a while.
gravenimage says
Notice this is a Rabbi saying that Jews can pray in Mosques–*not* a Muslim cleric.
This article refers to Mosques in airports in Europe. I’d like to see identifiable Jews try this anywhere in Dar-al-Islam–it would not be healthy for them.
CRUSADER says
— “the greatest theologian since Thomas Aquinas” …
The only real reference for this is under the title “The Life of Karl Barth: Early Life from Basel to Geneva 1886-1913 (Part 1)” but it did not contain a source for the direct quotation. In short, I could not find proof that Pius XII ever said that.
CRUSADER says
Karl Barth
&
Islam….
https://soundcloud.com/thomisticinstitute/the-same-god-karl-barth-on-the-relation-of-islam-to-christianity-bruce-mccormack-92316
Karl Barth comments briefly, sporadically and polemically on Islam as a false religion. He views it as a threat to Christendom, using it as a cipher for National Socialism, as an example of absolute monotheism, and finally as a “paganised” form of rabbinic Judaism.
But an examination and critique of Barth’s understanding of Judaism, which is central to his understanding of Islam, recognises the interdependency of Church and Synagogue for Barth.
While Barth never developed a theology of Islam per se, this understanding gives his theology the potential to be of use to the new encounter between Christianity and Islam.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Karl Barth. Bishop George Bell.
Dismissed, derided, and in one case even martyred, each of these Christian leaders took a stand against the threat of Nazism. Today, a similar threat faces Christians in the US, across Europe, and much more dramatically throughout the Muslim world. Radical Islam’s jihadist ideology does not peacefully coexist with Christianity. And Christian leaders–both political and pastoral–should know more about the threats they face.
Joe says
This is a silly argument. It makes no difference whether Islam and Christianity worship the same God; rather all that matters is the relationship between God and man. For example, Cain and Abel worshiped the same God; did they do the same thing?
Islam forbids anyone to have a relationship with God, because that relationship is a threat to their warlord, Mohammed, who needs blind obedience to his cause which is to conquer the world for Mohammed. All warlords do this. Allah would not need to conquer the world if Allah created and controlled the world. If Allah is God, why does Allah need to conquer?
In Christianity, nothing exists but through God and nothing can continue to exist except with God (John 1). God has no reason to conquer anyone.
Islam teaches that all those who don’t exactly follow God are to be hated and killed.
Jesus teaches forgiveness (the Our Father).
Mohammed committed every sexual sin, but Jesus committed no sin and was a virgin.
Mohammed taught that he was greater than Jesus, but Jesus taught that He was the servant of all.
Islam teaches self redemption. In Islam, terror and violence are rewarded with eternal sex.
Jesus taught that people are saved only through His death and resurrection. Love is rewarded by offering the Truth (i.e., death and resurrection) to those who love Truth.
It doesn’t matter whether Allah and God are the same. But it does matter that Islam demands intolerance, immorality, violence, and hate, whereas Christianity teaches tolerance, morality, peace, and love.
lebel says
” If Allah is God, why does Allah need to conquer?”
Well he did enjoin the Jews to conquer the holy land no? do you guys just decide to wilfully ignore those parts?
Joe says
There was never a mandate to conquer the world for God. Your knowledge is as lacking as your English.
Gamzu says
Some people assume lebel is a Muslim, because he defends Islam. I’m pretty certain he’s Jewish (like me, but a lot more liberal). “Lebel” is how my Yiddish-speaking grandmother referred to my Uncle Leo. Plus he’s way too knowledgeable about the Bible. How many Muslims can quote Isaiah in Hebrew?
As for Isaiah claiming God creates evil, many modern scholars see this as an effort to defend monotheism against Zoroastrianism, which posited the existence of two gods, one good and one evil. The Jewish prayer book is uncomfortable with the harshness of Isaiah’s words. It quotes him, but replaces “evil” with “everything” (which would include evil).
gravenimage says
There is nothing “liberal” about lebel’s apologia for the savagery of Islam. Gamzu. He may or may not be Muslim, but he is certainly a Muslim apologist in any case.
lebel says
“As a man raised a Catholic I believe the deity exceed all understanding, and cannot be defined in human terms, ”
That sounds fine, are Muslims allowed to have the same understanding of their God?
Lavéritétriomphera says
@lebel,
You cannot I am afraid, because nowadays Catholics think God has a special connection, through the Holy Spirit, with each of us regardless religion, gender, race … that means all of us will be called upon to respond to our action before God whatever our religion, gender, fortune, race …
gravenimage says
lebel’s implication that since we don’t want to be raped, enslaved, and murdered by Muslims that we are cramping their religious freedom is quite grotesque.
Lavéritétriomphera says
As far I am concerned, the Muslims’s discourses are as predictable as the floods of the Nile.
gravenimage says
Grimly true.
Chris H says
This is for Robert Spencer. You have said in one of your books I read that the Islamic belief is a combination of early Judaism (OT), early Christianity and of early paganism and I believe it. The first item you mention that contradicts Islam and Christianity is free will. It is very unfortunate that Christianity has become so watered down that they promote that we have a free will to accept God or not. You mention, except for the small community of Calvinists. Well I may tell you that I’ve become a staunch Calvinist as his theory explains what happened to me when the Lord came into my life. Psalm 110:3 “Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power” and learned the hard way that “…without Me ye can do nothing.” John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” In Romans 8:7 it states that the carnel man cannot desire the things of God and therefore I agree that the Qur’an is correct that we do not have a free will. Since the fall our will is in bondage (see M. Luther’s book on “The bondage of the will”).
I definitely agree we don’t serve the same God.
gravenimage says
Do you believe that you had no free will in becoming a Calvinist?
Chris H says
No. In dependence on the Lord, I believe He brought me under that teaching and because it declared what was going on in my soul, I totally embraced it. Thanks be only to Him!
tim gallagher says
I can’t believe that anyone can believe the Christian concept of what God is like (loving, gentle, peaceful, forgiving) is anything like the Muslim concept of what God is like( a vicious, savage type of deity who calls for non-Muslims to be slaughtered, and calls for endless violence and barbaric attitudes towards women, children (with the paedophilia of child marriages, etc). To my mind, the two concepts of what God is like are complete opposites. It beggars belief that anyone, and especially religious leaders, who have training in theology and such matters,( and this current Pope seems to think this way) can think that there is any similarity between these religions. They are polar opposites. God may or may not exist, but I believe that the Christian vision of a gentle, loving God is the best and noblest and most pleasant concept of God that mankind has come up with and Islam’s version of what God is like is the foulest and most revolting ever (well, at least amongst the religions which still exist). I find it sickening when people, despite all the revolting calls for violence in Islam, which seems Satanically evil, say that it resembles Christianity. How can anyone be that blind?
Eric Jones says
No Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God.Christ calls for those to come to him, whom so ever will. Muslims do not have this doctrine of choice. This is clear without question.
I am appalled at Francis intimately kissing another man.This is not the way to show you are friends. I believe that all priest should be married to a woman. God gave Adam Eve. This is clear without dispute.
Yes there is karmic debt and sin debt. We can only be saved by repentance and Christ remission of our sins. Repentance is a choice that Islam does not allow for. Robert Spencer is right again. I thank God for His plan of salvation through Jesus Christ!
Eric
Midwester says
God is a Trinity of Persons and a Unity of Substance. St. Paul tells us that all of the gods of the Gentiles are demons. Allah is not God. Allah is a demon. Period.