Uninformed savants across the political spectrum have pilloried President Trump for his eminently rational decision to draw down the U.S. troop commitment (initially, only 25, as it turns out!) to the Syrian morass (whose “dynamic” has remained largely unchanged since the late 1940s).
Most of the ire directed at Mr. Trump has to do with hand-wringing over our “Kurdish allies,” even after the President warned Turkey not to engage in its habitual behaviors — since Ataturk created his ethno-racist state — towards the Kurds. Regardless, here are a few salient points one should bear in mind about the Kurds which the hand-wringers conveniently ignore in their hagiographies:
— Kurdish predatory mass killings of Christians and Yazidis are well-characterized and went on for centuries. Grinding persecution continues to this day, as can be gleaned from detailed reports by both Assyrian and Yazidi organizations (here; here; here)
— Kurdish “region(s)” were ethnically cleansed of Jews by the late 19th/early 20th centuries in a series a pogroms, compounded by constant grinding persecution including enslavement of Jewish families handed over between generations of Kurds as “family property” (p. 658; p. 108)
— The Kurds of Turkey, brutally oppressed (here) by Ataturk’s ugly ethno-racist Turkish supremacist state (here), since the 1920s, ongoing, evolved their own brutal (here) Marxist terror organization, the PKK, to combat this oppression. Those Marxist PKK elements are the fighting backbone of the Syrian Kurds whom the U.S. is now claimed to be “abandoning”
— Kurds of Iraqi “Kurdistan” have enshrined the Sharia (“This Constitution confirms and respects the Islamic identity of the majority of the people of Iraqi Kurdistan. It considers the principles of Islamic Sharia as one of the main sources of legislation… It is not allowed to enact a law inconsistent with the provisions of the fundamentals of Islam,” Articles 6 & 7) and even apply it to Kurdish conscientious objectors to Islam who escape their Kurdish Muslim paradise and flee to the West. (here; here)
— 50% of Kurdistan’s women undergo FGM, sanctioned by the Sharia
Johny Messo is head of the World Council of Arameans. In 2014 Messo issued this statement when Israel’s Minister of Interior, H.E. Gideon Sa‘ar, signed a document that recognizes “Aramean” as a distinct national identity in Israel’s population registry:
We greatly commend Israel for being the first state in the world to recognize our people in keeping with international law. This fantastic news has had a major impact on the global Aramean population. It encourages us to continue our legal struggle for recognition by our home countries of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon”
Messo, was quoted from this story published today (10/10/19) from about the depredations and duplicity of the Kurdish Marxist brigades operating within Northern Syria:
“The PYD/YPG is threatening Syriacs and still forcibly detaining some children to join them,” Johny Messo, head of the World Council of Arameans (Syriacs), told Anadolu Agency on Thursday. Telling how the terrorist PYD/YPG fought other terrorist groups only to pursue its own territorial aims, he explained: “The aim of the PYD/YPG in its struggle against Daesh was to seize their territories and integrate them as part of the autonomous Kurdish region envisaged by them.” The U.S. had enlisted the PYD/YPG to fight Daesh, while Turkey objected that using one terror group to fight another makes no sense. Messo said the PYD/YPG and Daesh are both terror groups, differing only in aims, and sometimes even working together. “For example, the BBC showed that the PYD/YPG signed an agreement with Daesh. And, according to our own sources, the PYD/YPG took former Daesh members with them,” he added. Messo said it is the PYD/YPG — the Syrian branch of the [MARXIST] terrorist PKK….
mortimer says
So when it comes down to it, the Kurds are just as jihadist as other Muslims. However, journalists have been telling us that they wanted to separate the mosque from the state. I trust Dr Bostom is telling the truth about this. It’s depressing that so few journalists and news outfits are doing serious investigative journalism anymore. Most are feeding us a constant conveyor belt of highly-slanted (and one-sided) propaganda. Thanks, Dr Bostom for some sobering facts.
lebel says
“So when it comes down to it, the Kurds are just as jihadist as other Muslims.”
They were useful idiots. Now the jihadwatch slander machine will turn them into jihadists (or marxist-jihadists) because they’re no longer useful.
Of course, it’s all the Muslim’s fault that they’re being betrayed. It’s all Islam’s fault.
Honest Ali says
lebel “It’s all Islam’s fault.”
I am glad you are starting to wake up and see the truth about the evil of Islam. 🙂
Nobody willingly converted to Islam… not even Mecca and Medina. Why do you think there was a mass apostasy the minute Muhammad died?
Islam sucks so hard, that the only way it can keep people is to use death threats.
The world would be a much better place without Islam.
Enraged Kafar says
+1
Ernie says
Lebel , I’ve heard that the Kurds are a people , and that there are Kurds that are Muslim , other Kurds are Christian ,and that there are even Jewish Kurds . There are no good reasons for the betrayal of the Kurds ; and white-washing the betrayal of the Kurds by smearing them or referring to things that happened in the past is simply another injustice done to them .
Naildriver says
Islam is Mankind’s enemy and there is no rewiring its directives nor cleansing its horrors. The Kurds are Muslim and Muslims are not friendly with those not Muslim- even those who may live in their proximity– nor do various non Muslim groups define the Kurds or erase a Muslims depravity in practicing Islam’s directives.
Ernie says
I know there are people who think : “The Turks are Muslims , The Kurds are Muslims . Let them kill each other . The less Muslims in this world , the better . Because Islam is Mankind’s enemy “. And/or : ” These Muslims would never be merciful with me/us , so why would we be merciful to them ? They ( those Muslims ) would betray me/us without any hesitation , they would subjugate us or kill us without any remorse when given the chance “. And Islam declared war on us 1400 years ago and it’s war efforts are ever increasing…… so we have to fight back . We have to fight Islam where we can and we must fight to win…. yeah…..etc…. etc…………. I understand . Still there is something in me that says : NO , THE BETRAYAL OF THE KURDISH PEOPLE IS A DEPLORABLE ACT OF EVIL , it is a shame . ………….I’ll not be indifferent , and I’ll not be silent .
lebel says
“white-washing the betrayal of the Kurds by smearing them or referring to things that happened in the past is simply another injustice done to them .”
Yes, and it is done because of the anti-Muslim hatred which this site promotes.
eduardo odraude says
This site does not promote anti-Muslim hatred. It does lead sane people to an intense dislike of what the core texts of Islam teach.
Muhammad affirms that those who do not follow him will be slaughtered
On page 222 (326 in the Arabic) of the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad:
https://archive.org/stream/TheLifeOfMohammedGuillaume/The_Life_Of_Mohammed_Guillaume#page/n133/mode/1up
eduardo odraude says
lebel is purveying falsehoods in claiming Robert Spencer promotes anti-Muslim hatred. Spencer has stated countless times that many Muslims are ignorant of their own texts and innocent of the violent totalitarian teachings of Muhammad. lebel knows but wants to hide that Robert Spencer says in virtually every talk Spencer gives that it is wrong to paint Muslims with a broad brush. But lebel wants that to be concealed because lebel is frightened of Robert Spencer because Spencer knows too much about the core texts of Islam and the violent totalitarian program those texts teach. Spencer exposes to the world that Islam is an expansionist totalitarian system.
For proof that lebel is either grossly ignorant or lying through his teeth, check out some of the juicy quotes from core Islamic texts at quotingislam.blogspot.com
You’ll never again fall for the BS that Islam is a religion of peace.
Sam says
Read the Koran and go to a Muslim site. Why are you here?
libertyORdeath says
“The enemy of my enemies is my friend”
Sometimes unfortunate alliances are necessary such as the Western allies who fought with the Soviet Union during WWII to defeat a Nazi Germany who hoped for world domination. Just because some Islamists are taken as allies during a more pressing conflict (like the Kurdish PPK in the fight against ISIS) does not mean that they are true allies. They are not “being betrayed” but rather the conflict has run its course. We are not turning against them or sanctioning Turkey to eradicate them but that is their batlle, not ours. To turn it into a question of religious affiliation is preposterous. Don’t get too distraught when light is shed on the facts.
shoehorn says
lebel: Muslims are attacking Kurds, not USA or Jihad Watch
gravenimage says
Spot on.
roberta says
“Spot on” in less than 10 words. Well, more or less, according to how you count them.
Also, the Kurds would have turned on our soldiers in time. (By the orders of the koran)
Angemon says
“Now the jihadwatch slander machine”
Says the guy who claims this is a “hate site” and called for genocide – there is, indeed, a slander machine here. Not JihadWatch, tough…
“will turn them into jihadists”
And here it is, the slander machine at full throttle: “jihadwatch slander machine turns muslims into jihadis” – as if it wasn’t islamic doctrine but reporting on said doctrine that made jihadis out of muslims…
gravenimage says
Yes–the idea that what creates Jihadists is Infidels daring to dislike Jihad. Just grotesque.
Jim says
People, the one thing to remember when talking about muslims, is that ALL men, women and children who were brought up in the muslim religion are potential Jihard warriors. With a slight gentle push by their religion, they will take to the Jihard trail, no exceptions. Those who follow the caliphate are converted from the muslim religion which turns it into a merciless cult.
lebel says
Here comes the justification for the betrayal, complete with the sins of the father.
“Kurds did bad things so we can do it to current generation!” – Can you imagine if other people were held to the same standards? oh wait, that logic only works one way.
I am happy you are showing your hatred in full because some stupid Muslims are still unaware of what jihadwatch is all about. It’s good to sharpen contradictions.
Ernie says
Thomas Faddis , Lebel might be wrong about many things , but I’m detecting a lot of SPIN here to justify the betrayal of the Kurds in Northern Syria by the USA . Smearing the Kurds or referring to things from the past is no good justification for this betrayal . It’s a shame .
Naildriver says
Spin would require some notion that Islam’s devotees can be trusted. A devotee of Islam is the enemy. Period.
Leon Degney says
Well if “the sins of the fathers” isn’t good enough, how about this for an excuse to abandon them to fend for themselves, in a word they’re “Muslims” that should do it?
Ernie says
Lebel , I think you have a point here .
Naildriver says
That we must be supportive because they helped bring down a faction that was too impatient with establishing a Islamic caliphate while they want their own version of one? Muslims murdering one another isn’t new nor cleansing of the hard wired beliefs both harbor. If the Kurds dump Islam then the above propagandist would have a point.
lebel says
The SDF wants a Caliphate? can we at least get knowledgeable hate mongers? guys who don’t rely on jihadwatch only for their information?
gravenimage says
Even if there is a Kurdistan at some point, it is unlikely to be a Caliphate. The implication, though, that any pious Muslims are rejecting the ideal of a Caliphate is implausible.
Ernie says
No Thomas Faddis , lebel is not lying . He is right this time , and you are bloody wrong . It is a great sin in my eyes to invent all kinds of excuses to justify a deplorable act of betrayal . Shame on you !
Carl says
Ernie, I like your views. I am not pro muslim. As a matter of fact jihadwatch has blocked some of my posts because too venum on my part against muslims. 😊
But I was thinking maybe it is some kind of deal to stop Turkey, the turkey, from opening the flood gates of migrants to europe, in return turkey can open up a clearing to send migrants back to their Homeland.
?????
gravenimage says
Carl, the idea that we abandoned anyone to Turkey so the they won’t (temporarily) flood us with more Muslims would be appalling, actually–and would only further embolden Turkish thuggery.
Dawne Swift says
@Carl – I don’t honestly think that President Trump cares much about the issue of Muslim refugees in Europe. He has a very American perspective and to be fair that’s what he campaigned and won the election on. This is a very tricky issue and as far as I can see Robert Spencer isn’t actually saying that the Americans should have withdrawn, just that the MSM is painting the Kurds as saints, whereas in fact they have their own rather bloody history and future agenda.
Perhaps Trump sees the situation in Syria as similar to the disastrous US policy in the late 70s/early 80s where Afghanistani Muslims were armed by the US as part of their Cold War strategy, which somehow managed to create Al Qeeda.
Presumably Kurds can apply in the West for asylum as many Syrians have and possibly this will be the route this goes down.
FYI says
Speaking of the “sins of the father”,don’t forget..
the sins of..
al lah{“the BEST of deceivers” k3:54}your pagan Arab god,the father of lies{allah,the khayrul makhereen:”the Great DECEIVER”},the god who teaches muslims to violate the Actual God’s {Exodus 20+2 chief }laws in allah’s plagiarized ‘holy’ book,the koran.
Don’t forget..
the sins of ..
that son of islam,muhammed the mass-murderer of Jews{Abu dawud 4390},Thief{stole from the khybar jews],polygamist,pederast{aisha etc}
the sins of islam…
1,400 years of islamic brutality,invasions and wars
Thank goodness you now admit that it is “all islam’s fault”:i wouldn’t say all but mostly…
It is becoming increasingly difficult for muslim apologists to defend islam>
islam: a house of cards built on shifting sands in an Earthquake subduction zone.
A false god who admits to being a champion deceiver, a false prophet who admitted to being a liar[al tabari 6;111} and who FAILED the Poison Test thus revealing himself to be a false prophet and a false scripture which contains scientific,theological and logical errors and incongruities{which by the application of allah’s OWN criterion of koran 4:82 show the koran to be FALSE:allah says that if you find ANY errors in the koran it means the koran is false as it shows allah’s words to be false.Lo and Behold the koran is riddled with incongruities and errors like e.g The Jews believing in ‘Ezra the son of allah’ k9:30{they don’t}Jesus having the Gospel k5:46{Never!} etc…}
lebel says
“Spin would require some notion that Islam’s devotees can be trusted. A devotee of Islam is the enemy. Period.”
When I say that jihadwatchers believe as you believe, I get GI and Angemont jumping in for damage control and trying to change the subject through ad hominems.
Thanks for your honesty.
Signed: Master of Taqqiya, Kitman and Al-Wala wal Bara
Angemon says
“When I say that jihadwatchers believe as you believe, I get GI and Angemont jumping in for damage control and trying to change the subject through ad hominems. ”
Like I said earlier, here it is: the slander machine going full throttle… As usual, no example provided – must be true because lebel says so…
Angemon says
“ It’s good to sharpen contradictions.”
lebel, 2015:
“Can we now agree that if taqqiya really existed, Muslims would do just that in order to fool the naive infidels?”
lebel, 2019:
“By the way, if Taqqiya is real why DONT Muslim say they are against terrorism and Islamic jihad? why not just lie as they are ORDERED to do by Islam?”
Also lebel, 2019:
“This is the simplest answer and of course the likeliest one. Muslims like everyone else have their contradictions. They do not behave in behaviour one can predict by reading Hadith and Sira etc it just does not work that way.“
Also lebel, 2019:
“Do like most Muslims and selectively ignore parts of the religion as is obvious to anyone who as ever travelled to a Muslim country, or watched an Arabic television channel or actually met a live Muslim.”
Angemon says
““Kurds did bad things so we can do it to current generation!” – Can you imagine if other people were held to the same standards?”
You mean how white Europeans and white Americans are nowadays routinely shamed and attacked, and expected to apologize and pay reparations, for being white, because some of our ancestors might have owned slaves and because some European nations colonized some parts of the world? Or are you talking about muslim apologists going “CRUSADES AND INQUISITION!!!!!” when islamic terrorism is brought up?
lebel says
Yes and I think THAT IS wrong. If I thought it was right I could justify any evil done to white European and white American (by the way I’m white).
Oops didn’t expect that eh? You’re going to have to call me a liar because I highly doubt you will let that logic work both ways.
It’s wrong when done to whites, don’t you think it’s wrong when done to Kurds? no? why not? no answer? change the subject? call me names? move the goalpost?
Go ahead Angemont, surprise me just this once.
Angemon says
“Oops didn’t expect that eh?”
No, I expected that: you doing what you accuse me of – trying to change the subject. You wrote:
““Kurds did bad things so we can do it to current generation!” – Can you imagine if other people were held to the same standards? oh wait, that logic only works one way.”
I proved that was not the case – that logic does not work one way, and any honest interlocutor with a basic grasp of what is happening in the world knows that. You’re either ignorant or dishonest – and with your history here, I find it very hard to believe ignorance. But, of course, me pointing out that you’re dishonest results in you crying “insults and ad-hominems”. In any case, whatever you might claim to think when it is done to American and European whites is of no relevance.
Now, if you want to do something I am not expecting, you might start by acknowledging that Taqqiya, Kitman and Al-Wala wal Bara are established islamic doctrines and that islam has a well established doctrine of war against non-muslims on the grounds they’re not muslims…
P.S.:
“ no answer? change the subject? call me names? move the goalpost?”
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/140/Poisoning-the-Well
Oh, look: you doing another thing you accused me of. Imagine my surprise…
lebel says
Go ahead Angemont, surprise me just this once. Is it wrong to visit the sins (real or perceived) of past Kurds on the Kurds of this generation?
Yes or No
Angemon says
“Go ahead Angemont, surprise me just this once. Is it wrong to visit the sins (real or perceived) of past Kurds on the Kurds of this generation? ”
I wrote the following:
Well, are those established doctrines or not?
gravenimage says
Note that lebel is studiously ignoring Kurds beating Christians and imposing Jizya on them, and pretending that the only issue is Kurdish involvement in the Armenian Genocide a century ago.
That the Kurds have still been overall better in their treatment of religious minorities than their coreligionists just shows how appalling Islam is.
Reziac says
Kurds of today continue to attack Christians; they are not the peaceful allies they’re being painted as by those who benefit from the U.S. being mired in the ME. Read the links in this article:
https://globalchristiannews.org/article/christians-in-iraq-and-syria-still-at-risk-in-kurdish-controlled-areas-after-centuries-of-persecution/
“One Assyrian Christian stated, “They are confiscating rather than protecting our homes … They are treating us like second-class citizens … employing various tactics to frighten and subject our people with the aim of taking possession of our final remaining properties and lands, thereby transforming our ancestral homeland into an autonomous Kurdish region.”
And, of course, they are making Christians pay the jizya.
gravenimage says
Thanks for that link, Reziac.
Steve Young says
So, are you denying that the Kurds have launched terrorist bombings within Turkey within the last few years?
Don McKellar says
A very timely cold bucket of water and history lesson.
But of course, all you had to do was watch MSM or any of the “experts” they have on go bonkers that the “noble” Kurds are being abandoned and betrayed to know how right Trump was in doing what he did.
pennant8 says
When you stop and think about it, just about every Middle East conflict we have allowed ourselves to be sucked into involves Muslims attacking Muslims. The Turkey/Kurds conflict is no different. President Trump, to his credit, has decided we are going to sit this one out.
vlparker says
Yup. And there is nothing dumber on God’s earth than to get involved in muslim civil wars.
Northern Virginiastan says
More about the role played by Kurds in the Armenian genocide, please.
11B40 says
Greetings:
I recently finished reading “Places and Names” by Elliot Ackerman. In it, he reports that the Kurds have a bit of folk wisdom that translates to “We have no friends but the mountains.”. That shows me a degree of self-awareness for which the growing breast-beating hysteria about their plight doesn’t seem to account.
A while back, I read “The Fields of Blood” by a guy last-named Morton. It was about the the Crusaders crusading through the Levant back in the 1100s and 1200s. The ebbs and flows of interests, politics, and alliances in those day proved so similar to today’s that the author added an Afterward addressing that point specifically.
That light at the end of the Middle East tunnel has been there since 632 A.D.
Rarely says
It’s sometimes (often?) to differentiate the “good” guys from the “bad” guys in the Middle Eastern conflicts. Allegiances often change. It is usually desirable not to throw your allies under the bus. If the Kurds, upon establishing an independent country, promote Sharia law within it that is none of our concern. The World is not going to establish a set of standards based on what I believe to be the correct standards — even if I’m right (difficult to measure of course). G’d didn’t go on vacation and leave me (or Donald Trump, for that matter) in charge.
An increased ISIS threat along with a rejuvenated refugee problem is probably a greater threat both today and in the long term than what the makeup of some future Kurdish state may be.
Regardless of their history the Kurds have been of major importance in defeating ISIS and were, either by perception, in reality or necessity, allies of the U.S. The message the U.S. is giving to the outside and, most particularly, to its allies and those countries that depend upon the U.S. for security and support is one of fickleness. Obama led the way and I for one believed the Donald would act differently.
I and the future refugees and victims of this move hope that it turns out better than appears to be the case at this moment.
Carl says
The “fickleness” started with Bush Senior.
SFWhite says
Does Robert Spencer align with the statements in this article? It reads like a one-sided hit-piece on the Kurds that glosses over why they became “terrorists”. Seems reinstating the Treaty of Sèvres Ataturk nullified and giving Kurds their own land would stop war between Turkey and Kurds, no matter their barbaric religious practices… which are true for majority of Islamic countries, if I’m not mistaken.
gravenimage says
I don’t think giving any group of Muslims land would stop Muslim-on-Muslim violence–it never has before. That being said, I am generally under the current circumstances for a Kurdish homeland.
E T says
It is fascinating to read the poor Muslim’s angle regarding what is playing out on the world stage. I personally believe all the Muslim scholars, the modern day scholars, the Imams the Islamic leaders. ie.
Revered Islamic scholar Sayyid Qutb: “We need not rationalize Islam to them, need not appease their desires and distorted concepts. We will be extremely outspoken with them: “The ignorance in which you are living makes you impure, and God wants to purify you: the customs which you follow are defiling, and God wants to cleanse you; the life you are living is low, and God wants to uplift you; the condition you are in is troublesome, depressing and base, and God wants to give you ease, mercy and goodness.”
“Our first task is to replace this jahiliyyah with Islamic ideas and traditions. this cannot be brought about by agreeing with jahiliyyah and going along a few steps with it from the very beginning, as some of us think we ought to do, for this will simply mean that from the very beginning we have accepted defeat.
“The foremost duty of Islam in this world is to DEPOSE the jahiliyyah from the leadership of man, and to take the leadership into its own hands and enforce a particular way of life which is a permanent feature”.
“The chasm between Islam and jahiliyyah is great, AND A BRIDGE IS NOT TO BE BUILT ACROSS IT so that the people of the two sides may mix with each other, but ONLY so the people of the jahiliyyah may come over to Islam “.
Sheikh Ahmed Badran “Once Muslims come to power, they will NEVER ALLOW INFIDELS TO RULE OVER MUSLIMS”.
The first principle on which Islam is based “ La Ilaha I’ll Allah”. There is no Deity except Allah.
Shari’ah law: MOSQUE AND STATE ARE NOT SEPARATE.
Qur’an 8:12
Allah will TERRORIZE unbelievers; Muslim’s should behead them.
Qur’an 8:39. FIGHT the unbelievers until ISLAM REIGNS SUPREME.
8:60. Make WAR against the enemies of Allah
9:73 Be harsh with unbelievers
47:4. Behead and slaughter the unbelievers, take others captive
That is what Jihadwatch is about, and I thank God every day for Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald, they are men of tremendous courage in an era of cowards, who refuse to stand up against the ROT OF ISLAM.
Wellington says
In agreement with this article, which does not mean that we should not work with some Kurds against other Muslims in the Middle East, but neither should we be so naive as to think that the Kurds are an exception to being Muslim.
Islam distorts life, is a recipe for the closing of the mind, has horrible dictates in it that no other religion has (e.g., death for apostasy) and is a mortal enemy of liberty. Islam stultifies life after parasitically feeding off a conquered host. It’s reputed founder exhibits the character of a narcissistic, brutal psychopath, its chief holy book is a hate manual (backed up by a lot of hate exhibited in the hadiths and sira) and it puts forth as its deity the fictional Allah, who really was just Mo’s hand puppet, or, in the alternative, if Allah really exists and Islam is the true faith, then God is a jerk, we live in a very creepy universe and the only noble alternative is to emulate Prometheus and defy this higher power whatever the cost.
Just as Nazism and Marxism are recipes for the distortion of the human spirit, so is Islam. And no matter what group of people are Muslim, they still are Muslim, and it is imperative that Islam be looked upon by the vast majority of human beings (and especially in the West where freedom was by far most fully developed) as a religious aberration, tolerated but never admired or treated as an equal with the other major religions of the world.
Wellington says
“Its reputed founder…” and not “It’s reputed founder…”
gravenimage says
Fine analysis, Wellington.
Wellington says
Thank you, gravenimage.
And I see lebel is up to his tired old talking points again, to wit, castigating those who oppose Islamic terror as evidence of bigotry, which Islam is simply superb at producing due to its iniquitous theology.
Same old, same old with lebel. Seems he just can’t advance at all. Not even a little.
Hey, lebel, try addressing just one of the many iniquities of Islam, i.e., death for apostasy, as confirmed by Sura 4:89, Bukhari Hadith 9.84.57 and every major school of Islamic theology to this very day, whether Sunni or Shiite. Or are you going to dodge matters again and inveigh against us “haters” like gravenimage and myself? I’m bettin’ the latter.
Wake up, lebel. Oh wait, asking someone who defends the worst religion of all time to “wake up” is like asking the dead to come back to life. And speaking of death, lebel, the Islamic faith has a fascination with said phenomenon ( e.g., “you love life, we love death” and other Islamic rot along these lines) that is just more evidence of how truly sick Islam, all of it, really is.
Islam is sick, lebel. Throughout it is. Gravenimage knows this. I know it. And an ever increasing number of people across the world are coming to know this. Deal with it—if you can.
James Lincoln says
Wellington,
lebel continues to see everything through the eyes of Islam. You can predict what he will post even before you read it.
It is very unlikely that he will ever conduct a factual, objective, evidence-based analysis of Islam. He is either unable or unwilling to do this.
He will likely never change… I try not to waste my time by replying to his posts.
gravenimage says
+1
Infidel says
Aside from that, there is one obvious glaring point: if all those (D) and (R) congressmen and senators think that the Kurds are so great, why don’t they pass a resolution calling for the recognition of an independent Kurdistan, and having it carved out of Syria at least, if not Iraq as well? Such a state would at least provide a rational basis for having troops there a la Germany. They won’t do anything to upset the regimes in either Baghdad or Damascus, and yet, they howl when US troops, who do not belong there, get pulled out of the region
Jan Allen McDaniel says
Kurdish Muslims are what they say they are in their Constitution: Islamist enemies of Western democracy.
The 2004 regional Constitution for Kurdistan does not call for separation of religion and state. It accepts the Iraq Federal Constitution on that subject:
====
“Article 16:
Freedom of religion, belief, and the practice of religious duties is guaranteed provided they do not conflict with provisions of this Constitution or the Federal Constitution or with federal laws and provided they do not go against general moral and ethical standards.”
https://unpo.org/article/538
The Iraq Federal Constitution:
“Article 2 • Official religion First • Status of religious law
Islam is the official religion of the State and is a foundation source of legislation:
A. No law may be enacted that contradicts the established provisions of Islam
B. No law may be enacted that contradicts the principles of democracy.
C. No law may be enacted that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms stipulated in this Constitution.
https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Iraq_2005.pdf?lang=en
Phil Copson says
How soon before the Left / No Borders brigade demand that the West admit the Kurds as well ?
somehistory says
Thank you, Mr. Bostom, for this information. It helps to clarify the situation.
When two king cobras are fighting, for which one does a person wish to win?
moslim terrorists are no better than snakes fighting over territory. Neither side should be helped to win.
zoroaster says
After the fall of the Zoroastrian Iranian Sassanid empire and its conquest by the arab-muslims, a group of Zoroastrian Knights resisted against the arabs (abbasid caliphate) occupying Iran. Their name was the Khurramite Knights. They bravely fought and attacked the arabs occupying Iran without a day of rest … but their leader, Babak Khorramdin, was captured by arabs and savagely executed. After the death of Babak Khorramdin, the Khurramite Knights left Iran and joined the Byzantine empire (Eastern Roman Empire), they swore allegiance to the Byzantine emperor and they also converted to Christianism. The knights bravely fought the arabs with the banner of the Byzantine empire … but you know what? … The emperor decided to betray his Iranian knights and ordered their execution to please the arabs! … So now with what happens with the Iranic Kurds is exactly the same … history repeats itself, the new Roman empire aka the USA betray his allies to please demons.
gravenimage says
The emperor decided to betray his Iranian knights and ordered their execution to please the arabs!
……………………….
Links, please.
Rarely says
It’s always the same — two tribes fighting over who gets the most valuable land. Who to support? How about the one that will do you the least harm? In this case it’s a bit more complicated because, even if the U.S. backs off, it’s unlikely that Russia will. Consequently the U.S. will lose influence in the are and Russia will gain it. A shift in the balance of power has been known to be a prelude war drawing into it many others.
i.e. this is a very dangerous situation that has just been made more dangerous.
CogitoErgoSum says
So Turkey, wants the U.S. to leave Syria and the Kurds want the U.S. to remain. Turkey is our ally within NATO and the Kurds are our ally against ISIS. Which ally do we favor — or betray depending on how you look at it. I’d say the best course is to step aside and let the two “friends” solve their own problems. No way for the U.S. to win. I think Trump is right to sit this one out and wait for the next deal of the cards.
Danusha Goska says
Nazi Germany attacked Poland on September 1, 1939, beginning WW II in Europe.
Poles fought the longest and suffered under the most monstrous occupation.
Poles were, of course, on the same side as the US, England, and France.
Poles flew in the RAF. Poles participated in Monte Cassino. Etc.
After the war, it was convenient for the US to deliver the Poles to Stalin. An Iron Curtain clanged down around Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe. That curtain would not rise again till 1989.
Poles were denounced as anti-Semites. Not worthy of American concern.
The denunciations had a basis in fact. Anti-Semitism is a significant feature of 20th century Polish culture. There were pogroms in post-war Poland, significantly in Kielce.
The flaws in Polish culture do not excuse the West abandoning her ally. The flaws in Polish culture do not make up for the US allowing the Soviet Union to have more territory.
gravenimage says
The idea that it was the West that attacked eastern Europe and turned it into a Communist hell hole is quite mistaken.
Wellington says
Danusha Goska: My ancestors came from Poland. I am half-Polish myself. And while I think FDR at Yalta should have listened to Churchill and insisted on free and fair elections in Poland with neutral observers aplenty, the fact of the matter is that Stalin had Russian troops all over Poland by the last months of WWII and there wasn’t a whole hell of a lot America or Britain could do about this. But America did come through with such initiatives as the Truman Doctrine (which, among other achievements, saved Greece), the Marshall Plan, the Berlin Airlift and the creation of NATO, not to mention being effectively the sole reason why South Korea and Japan are free and productive states today. In case you haven’t taken notice yet, America won the Cold War and the other side was so defeated that it resulted in the collapse of the USSR and sundry Eastern European regimes (said collapse hastened, per Alexander Bessmertnykh, Gorbachev’s Foreign Minister, who said, and I quote, “Ronald Reagan’s military build-up and Strategic Defense Initiative accelerated the demise of the Soviet Union”).
I am exceedingly sorry America couldn’t or didn’t save Eastern Europe in the late 1940’s but it did save Greece and Western Europe. Holy Hell, if America acts (e.g. in 1999 by bombing Belgrade, which put an end to outright war which had existed since 1991 during the breakdown of Yugoslavia {and remember that before 1999 America was criticized by many for NOT ACTING in the Yugoslavian breakdown—the real reason being not that much of Europe gave a damn about Serbians, Croatians, Slovenians, et al. per se but because many European countries, especially those close to the former Yugoslavia, like Hungary, Austria and Italy, were deeply concerned about a “spill-over effect from said breakdown }, it is blamed; if it does not act it is blamed. Such is the fate of the great power at any time in history. Put another way, it’s easy being Denmark, Canada, etc. What is damn difficult is being America. After all, when the world gets in trouble, it doesn’t call on Denmark, Canada, et al. No, it calls upon the polity that is regularly expected to save people and whose request for real estate outside of America for such salvation is nothing more than enough ground to bury its soldiers in.
Frankly, as an American, I sometimes, unrealistic as it is, wish the rest of the world would just go away. America has had to clean up the mess started by others time and time and time again—WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War (after the French blew it at Dien bien,phu in 1954), sundry times in the seemingly forever dysfunctional Latin America (which America is regularly blamed for when, in fact, as an example, Nicaragua in 1912, America has intervened because all law and order had broken down), the dismal Islamic world most certainly, et al. This does not mean America has not erred. Far from it. As examples, the Vietnam War should have been fought differently by America or not at all, and America was wrong to recognize an independent Kosovo. But as an American I am exceedingly tired of so much of the world, which again and again refuses to move out of stupid mode. And then we get blamed for this. ENOUGH!
Done here. At least for now.
Troy Hoyt says
Of course, everyone is just going to forget the fact that the Kurds played an instrumental role in the gains Americans were able to make against ISIS. Just like Trump himself, this propagandist website is nothing more than a lying piece of garbage. Oh, by the way… There were 1000 American soldiers in that area, not 25 as claimed by the always reliable source for truth, Donald Trump.
CogitoErgoSum says
Why should he give his enemies information about troop strength?
Ernie says
Mister Troy Hoyt , as you can read here , NOT everyone is just going to forget the fact that Kurds played an instrumental role in the gains Americans were able to make against ISIS . Why do you think I’m calling it a deplorable act of betrayal from Donald Trump and his administration to abandon the Kurds in northern Syria ? It saddens me greatly that quite a lot of people contributing here are coming up with all kinds of fallacies for the betrayal of the Kurds in northern Syria . At least in my eyes these are fallacies . I’m free to contribute my points of view here as are others . And you’re free to contribute as well Mister Hoyt . I don’t agree with you when you say : ” this propagandist website is nothing more than a lying piece of garbage “. I’ve learned here a lot over the years at Jihad Watch . Where are the lies , Mister Hoyt ? Can you show me the lies ? I don’t see lies here . I see opinions and interpretations ; and I may or may not agree . Sometimes articles reflect opinions that I hold for very undesirable , just as the article above . It angers and or saddens me , and as in this case , it’s nearly unbearable to me , really . But I don’t see lies here . Nor garbage . But maybe beauty is in the eye of the beholder if you catch me…
lebel says
Wonder if they kept a few US troops around the oil wells in Deir Ezzor? at least they’re valuable unless the worthless Muslim kurds.
CogitoErgoSum says
Erdogan is the one asking for the removal of the American forces. Trump seems to pay attention to what Erdogan wants. If Erdogan were to say he had a change of heart and would ask Trump to stay to help avert a disaster, I think Trump would stay. The blame for any massacre that occurs should be on Turkey (a Muslim nation), not the U.S.
gravenimage says
Under the circumstances, the Kurds are the least bad faction in the region, even given their imposing Jizya on the Christians in Iraq.
That being said, what in the article above is untrue? OF course, Troy Hoyt does not say.
Spiro says
25
50
1000
Who cares we should not be In turkey or Iraq
Past presidents got us involved in regional conflicts that were none of our business and waisted our military
especially the last three
Not to mention destabilized Libya
Gabriella says
Hm reading this thread I did not see a single word about how Islam treats/regards women. As a woman, and living in France where we see plenty chadors and hijabs even on little girls every day (covering women so men don’t get “tempted” – are you FRIGGIN KIDDING ME?); and having been personally spit on for laughing aloud in public IN MY COUNTRY (women aren’t supposed to “have pleasure”) and watching how France and the West knuckle under to violent jihadis (notice BBC et al has completely BURIED the story on the recent convert to islam who went on a rampage and viciously slaughtered 4 police IN 7 MINUTES, and INSIDE POLICE HEADQUARTERS the other day with an oyster shucking knife), this entire religion can go to hell and I don’t give a crap about the “moderates” and anymore.
gravenimage says
Gabriella, there is a lot about the Islamic abuse of women at Jihad Watch. The only reason there are no comments on this thread specifically condemning this is because the story above is on another subject.
ntesdorf says
Inter-State struggles in the Islamic World do not involve struggles between Good Guys and Bad Guys. They are inevitably struggles between Bad Guys and Worse Guys.
Chand says
And the Good Guys were all ga-ga about the Bad Guys as long they were destroying the Worse Guys.
JMB says
In all of this, where are the howls of protest against the Turkish invasion of northern Cyprus?
gravenimage says
I have condemned this many times here, dating back years, JMB.
Spiro says
Amen
But they invaded a Christian country so that’s ok
It’s only when Moslem counties are involved is there a problem
Your right the Turks have no business in Cyprus
SAFI says
So is Trump going to do something about Cyprus? When will that be? Before or after they sign that $45 billion contract with Erdogan? https://ahvalnews.com/boeing/erdogans-newly-announced-100-boeing-purchase-cost-44-billion-turkish-daily Should I hold my breath?
gravenimage says
Good question, SAFI:
“Turkish Navy surrounds Cyprus”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/10/turkish-navy-surrounds-cyprus
There is no doubt that Turkey is much emboldened now.
gravenimage says
One would assume from the above that lebel is a staunch supporter of the Kurds, but he is not. His only purpose here is to slander Anti-Jihadists.
He hopes that if he can do so in regard to this issue, that it will–somehow–render concerns over violent Jihad and the rape of Infidels moot.
Spiro says
Your right about that
But I choose not to give him any credibility his not very good at not disclosing him self as to what he really is
Ashley says
I’m curious as to the “what he really is” remark.
I have no issue with lebel (and I guess that’s an issue). He’s civil. He presents well. He’s sarcastic. He takes a dim view on certain assertions/posts/comments here…as do many. I do think some follow Robert Spencer blindly and others exercise a degree of critical thinking to the post at hand.
I don’t think lebel is a Muslim or an Islamic apologist. I honestly don’t think he cares for Islam at all. I think he just wants to keep things in check and stir the pot. There are times when this site morphs to “Muslims bad, Robert Spencer good.” Such mentality doesn’t help the unified cause of eradicating jihad, sharia, and Qur’an tenets/directives. Such mentality doesn’t help Jihad Watch.
Leave him alone. He isn’t hurting anyone.
And if you choose not to give him any credibility, there is really no purpose to comment about him…
gravenimage says
Ashley–with all respect–I disagree. lebel’s only purpose here is to slam Anti-Jihadists, on the idea that if he can discredit them–or pretend to discredit them–on the smallest point, then it invalidates any resistance to the horrors of Islam.
abad says
Let the Kurds, and Moslems, fight it out and kill each other off, President Trump was right in removing our troops.
lebel says
“Like I said earlier, here it is: the slander machine going full throttle… As usual, no example provided – must be true because lebel says so…”
Right on cue
gravenimage says
lebel has never expressed support for the Kurds before this situation–but he has, many times, sneered at any concerns Anti-Jihadists have about the threat of Islam.
If he is implying that this is false–as he is trying to do–then he should provide evidence of his having expressed concern for the Kurds from him over the years–but he won’t, because there is no such here.
As fror what I said about lebel’s constant distraction, obfuscation, and whitewash of the threat of Islam, all one has to do is check any thread he has posted on here.
lebel says
We both know you and most on here don’t care about evidence unless it confirms their pre-established beliefs. This is why just a quick selective and mendacious article on the Kurds can get a bunch of secular leftists fighting turned into jihadis.
So I found some evidence, a conversation with someone named Terry Gain when I trying to decipher how the hate-filled mind of a jihadwatcher worked when faced with a contradiction:
“Terry Gain says
May 19, 2018 at 3:09 pm
Moderate Muslims support an ideology which is extreme. They are moderate in name only.
Lebel says
May 19, 2018 at 3:51 pm
So when you see Kurds (for example) fighting ISIS and protecting Christians, what happens in your head?
Do you tell yourself it’s taqqiya? or it’s tactical for more shariah later on? what nonsense do you invent to understand this apparently contradictory behavior.”
In retrospect, that was quite prescient.
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/05/undercover-video-muslim-efforts-to-spread-islam-and-bring-sharia-to-us
OK time for you to move the goalpost and misrepresent my position.
gravenimage says
I’m not sure I would consider this support for the Kurds, exactly–but yes, this is lebel pretending that the Kurds have never beaten and imposed Jizya on Christians–so to that extent this is his falsely using the example of the Kurds to slam Anti-Jihadists.
If he wants to present this as his supporting the Kurds–rather than just further slandering Anti-Jihadists–then he can do so, implausible as it is.
Angemon says
“I’m not sure I would consider this support for the Kurds”
It isn’t – it’s simply more of his style of “if taqqyia exists how do you explain this” obfuscation (or, in that particular case, “if moderate islam doesn’t exist, how do you explain this”), as seen on mine Oct 10, 2019 at 5:21 pm post. The irony is that his supposed sneers are, in fact, viable answers to the question he poses – a tactical approach. Christians are as much victims of ISIS as Kurds, and there are plenty of examples in history where muslims and non-muslims joined forces to fight a common foe. Doesn’t mean that islam doesn’t preach a doctrine of warfare against infidels on the grounds they’re infidels, and that throughout history there have always been muslims acting in accordance to it.
gravenimage says
True, Angemon.
Angemon says
“Right on cue”
Yes, how dare I defend myself from lebel’s libel? Bad Angemont. BAD ANGEMONT!!!!!
tim gallagher says
From what I know of Islam, its barbarity in relation to most aspects of human life and its hatred towards all non-Muslims, I don’t have the time of day for any Muslims. I trust none of them. Even when they seem pleasant, I suspect that they always have a bad attitude towards non-Muslims. I have heard many times that the Kurds were very much involved in the genocide against the Christian Armenians, so I’ve never had a positive view of the Kurds, who I see as just another bunch of vicious, bloodthirsty people, so this article seems to throw some much needed cold water on the praise that the supposed “noble” Kurds have been receiving recently. The Kurds might be a little better than some other Muslims, but anyone who took part in the Armenian genocide can’t be all that good.
Ren says
Let the Turks fight the Kurds and vice versa. Let the muslims kill each other as they always did.
SAFI says
The Turks have an air-force (as well as an infinite amount of drones) , the Kurds do not. In this case “let them fight each other” translates let Erdogan conquer Syria. (some may see nothing wrong with that, but personally I think the consequences could be disastrous)
Patriot1776 says
President Trump was right
smart guy says
Without the help of the Kurds we could not have defeated ISIS without sending in more troops by the thousands. Leaving the Kurds to the genocidal Turks is a betrayal. The President has become a Judas he can hang himself upside Down in the Potter’s field as far as American Servicemen are concerned.
Ernie says
Thank you , “smartguy”/American Servicemen . You have heart and brains . Many people here don’t know it yet , but I’ll tell you this : The State of Israel will support the Kurds in northern Syria , it is going to happen . Veterans have already asked this from the government by petition , and Netanyahu himself thinks this is a good idea . Nobody can say these people are “naive” , or “naive Jews from the Left “. No , these are BATTLE-HARDENED REALISTIC and SMART people , knowing all ins and outs of the Middle East . Heart and brains . Of course it’s a matter of “Life’s sanctity “and “mutual” interest for Israel and the Kurds . It’s logic , natural .
lebel says
“Thank you , “smartguy”/American Servicemen . You have heart and brains . Many people here don’t know it yet”
Irrational hatred of Muslims does this. It leads to the positions taken by most jihadwatchers on this thread.
It would be good to get the opinions of the soldiers that served in Kurdish areas rather than some smear article written to justify the betrayal of people who happen to have Muslim names.
Ernie says
What most readers here on Jihad Watch don’t know , is that the Syrian Democratic Forces who are abandoned by the USA is a SECULAR , MULTI-ETHNIC battle force . To suggest here they are ( dangerous ) muslims is deliberately misinforming the readers here .
Ernie says
Lebel , the FEAR and Hate of Muslims is NOT IRRATIONAL . In 1400 years Muslims have conquered , murdered , robbed ,stolen , raped , maimed , oppressed , mutilated , destroyed , threatened , pillaged , tortured , betrayed , etc etc . And all sanctioned by their EVIL , MALICIOUS DEEN . Distrust , fear and anger , even hate , is justified by muslim-behaviour or as I would say : MIS- BEHAVIOUR . But as I already stated : the Syrian Democratic Forces are a SECULAR , MULTI-ETHNIC BATTLE-FORCE . This SDF has NOT the intention to establish any brand of islam , as an apparently misinformed reader earlier suggested .
Chand says
+1 smart guy
lebel says
“Note that lebel does not, of course, say that the does not share their creed.”
Who said I share their creed?
gravenimage says
As I have noted many times, lebel sneering is *not* the same as denial.
Chand says
It is clear as day. The Kurds were instrumental in defeating IS. YPG are secular/Marxists. They have now been betrayed. And this essay is trying to whitewash the glaring betrayal.
Ernie says
Yes Chand , it’s disgusting . I would never have thought Jihad Watch / Mister Robert Spencer and Andrew Bostom in both their articles concerning this subject would go so LOW . I’m very disappointed .
Chand says
“Messo said the PYD/YPG and Daesh are both terror groups, differing only in aims, and sometimes even working together. “For example, the BBC showed that the PYD/YPG signed an agreement with Daesh. And, according to our own sources, the PYD/YPG took former Daesh members with them,” he added.”
Chand says
This quote by Bostom is the most ridiculous of all. Equating a secular/Marxist group which have women brigades and clearly have equal rights for women, women’s emancipation, scientific education, countering religious doctrine and backwardness, etc. as their political agenda with a barbaric gang of fascist criminals trying to establish their own vision of 7th century Arabic Islam is totally dumb.
We aren’t all that stupid, Mr. Bostom.
BTW, sometimes the fiercest of enemies have to make pacts and even ‘sign agreements’ on the battle field for various reasons, like exchanging prisoners, letting civilians flee, etc. That does not constitute ‘working together’.
Ernie says
Well Chand we all know how objective the BBC is in its reporting of ” facts “. Or not , maybe , dear Jihad Watch readers ? And ” Messo ” is as objective and only telling the truth as it is , impartial , no bias at all…….sure ! I’m sarcastic here , o.k. ?
Chand says
Yes, Ernie. BBC is fake news. This Messo must be reliable………..
: )
Ernie says
Thank you Chand ,Theo Prinse , and ” smart guy ” , it’s good to finally see some common sense here…..
lebel says
These guys and girls stood side by side with the US taking on Daesh wearing sandals and sub standard flack jackets.
Now for most jihadwatchers they’re just a bunch of jihadis, no better than Daesh, This is the hatred that I have been calling attention to.
Chand says
True, lebel.
Islam may be problematic, or bad, or very bad, or terrible or even evil but for most JW readers this translates into a hatred for ALL Muslims, just for being born into Islam. ALL Muslims are blamed for the Jihad problem and are falsely accused of being facilitators of jihad or sharia, whatever that means.
But I say ‘most’ and not all JW readers, of course.
lebel says
I agree but I think for many of them it did not have to be this way. This site has turned people who would have had a balanced view into hate mongers who are ready to label every single man, woman and child with a Muslim name as some kind of evil entity. Once that is established in their minds, the lives of those people become at best irrelevant. We see the result clear as day in this thread and we see it with the “least Muslim” candidates possible: Marxist Kurds who fought alongside US solders!
It’s hard to imagine that level of hatred.
Angemon says
“This site has turned people who would have had a balanced view into hate mongers who are ready to label every single man, woman and child with a Muslim name as some kind of evil entity.”
Citation needed.
“It’s hard to imagine that level of hatred.”
Ask a “Palestinian” what he thinks of Jews… Better yet, ask a “jihadi” what he thinks of infidels… You do know how to separate “muslims” from “jihadis”, right?
gravenimage says
“It’s hard to imagine that level of hatred.”
………………………….
Note that lebel never said anything like this against ISIS.
For him, a hatred of Jihad is always the thing to be condemned.
Angemon says
“Now for most jihadwatchers”
Weasel words – prove your assertion.
Theo Prinse says
And the Kurds didnt help the Americans on the beaches of Normandy either. What a filthy article.
Ernie says
Filthy article indeed . SMEAR to justify betrayal . How low !
Chand says
+ 1 Theo Prinse
SAFI says
I’m not the one who will claim that the Kurds are saints. But I do find it weird how some people “suddenly” remembered PKK’s “Marxist terrorist” roots just 2 days ago, only after Trump (apparently) decided to give in to Erdogan’s pressure , after having resisted that pressure for the past couple of years even against the latter’s threats to give the US forces the “Ottoman Slap” if Trump did not go along with his plans, and after America spent the past several years arming those same “marxist terrorists” , and even fighting shoulder to shoulder with them in some cases.
gravenimage says
There is no doubt that Erdogan is nasty piece of work–and a clear enemy.
Livia Varju says
I know Kurds, and they all say that Kurds are not all Muslims but also Christians. All Kurds are not of the PKK. I have only heard good reports about the Kurdish allies of the US in NE Syria. The shame and scandal is that Trump called Erdogan to say they were withdrawing and gave Erdogan permission to invade. Next day, he changed his tune. War is barbarity. The first day 4 Christians were killed by the Turcs and one little Kurdish girl lost a leg. Erdogan could have negotiated instead of starting another war. But he is a barbarian.
gravenimage says
When did Trump give Erdogan permission to invade? Links, please.
Ernie says
Well Gravenimage , by making way , and moving American troops out of the way of the Turkish invasion….. Trump defacto gave permission . Trump and Erdogan had a conversation just before all this , and could have resisted Erdogan .
gravenimage says
In that case, Ernie, our pulling out troops from anywhere on earth has to be taken as express permission for it to be taken over by Jihadists.
That being said, given how emboldened Turkey has been–striking the Kurds the same day, freeing ISIS prisoners, and now threatening Cyprus, I have come to think that our not maintaining at least a skeleton crew in Syria has been a mistake.
lebel says
“Lebel , the FEAR and Hate of Muslims is NOT IRRATIONAL . In 1400 years Muslims have conquered , murdered , robbed ,stolen , raped , maimed , oppressed , mutilated , destroyed , threatened , pillaged , tortured , betrayed , etc etc . And all sanctioned by their EVIL , MALICIOUS DEEN . Distrust , fear and anger , even hate , is justified by muslim-behaviour or as I would say : MIS- BEHAVIOUR . But as I already stated : the Syrian Democratic Forces are a SECULAR , MULTI-ETHNIC BATTLE-FORCE . This SDF has NOT the intention to establish any brand of islam , as an apparently misinformed reader earlier suggested .”
It is irrational, it is exactly why most people on here don’t give a shit about your secular kurds, they’re still just a bunch of evil Muslims whose death is at worse trivial as has been made clear by posters on this thread. You simply cannot see the logical implications of the ideology you are defending to me now. The jihadwatchers that you are disagreeing with are simply saying that If what you have just written about Islam and Muslims is true why should a single US soldier protect or get in the way of Muslims fighting each other? every single Muslim is a mortal threat, why should we care if they kill each other? in fact it is to our benefit.
Chand says
Well, lebel, have to agree with you there. Islamo-phobia’s phobia means ‘irrational’ fear. That is a fear of ALL Muslims.
Of course Muslims have “conquered , murdered , robbed ,stolen , raped , maimed , oppressed , mutilated , destroyed , threatened , pillaged , tortured , betrayed , etc etc”
But so have Christians, i.e. European conquerors, colonialists and Empires. And so have the Buddhist/Shinto Japanese. And innumerable empires and tribes from all places in the past. Basic human nature, that is: attack, subjugate, conquer, convert.
Nowadays, the global jihad problem has worsened this problem. So while some Muslims are definitely to be feared, all Muslims have come under suspicion as the jihadi terror strikes are unpredictable. The rational response is to target the jihadis and eliminate them and not smear all Muslims.
lebel says
“Nowadays, the global jihad problem has worsened this problem. So while some Muslims are definitely to be feared, all Muslims have come under suspicion as the jihadi terror strikes are unpredictable. The rational response is to target the jihadis and eliminate them and not smear all Muslims.”
Fully agreed but the people on here have been effectively brainwashed by RS and H. Fitzgerald to see ALL muslims as evil.
CogitoErgoSum says
Lebel, should a Muslim fight in whatever way he or she can to make sure that ALL Christians and Jews pay the Jizya if they do not convert (or “revert”) to Islam?
gravenimage says
lebel wrote:
“Lebel , the FEAR and Hate of Muslims is NOT IRRATIONAL . In 1400 years Muslims have conquered , murdered , robbed ,stolen , raped , maimed , oppressed , mutilated , destroyed , threatened , pillaged , tortured , betrayed , etc etc . And all sanctioned by their EVIL , MALICIOUS DEEN …”
It is irrational
……………………..
lebel has done this before–claimed that if we don’t want to be raped and murdered by Muslims that we are irrational. *Ugh*.
Wellington says
lebel: Not every Muslim is a mortal threat and anyone saying so is, at best, guilty of extreme exaggeration (though so-called moderate Muslims do give cover to the most “devout” to be found among Mo’s followers). But what is a threat is Islam—and a threat as no other major religion remotely is. As I have written to you before, it is the ideology that is paramount and it must be judged by what it says and not by the fact that many adherents of an ideology don’t fully implement or wrongly implement its tenets (Christianity produces some believers who are hypocrites but one should not judge Christianity by this).
Islamic ideology is full of garbage that other religions simply do not have, for instance, death for apostasy, being the only faith that in its theological blueprint calls for war to be made upon all mankind until all the world is under the domination of one religion, i.e., Islam, the sanctioning of rape as evidenced by Suras 4, 23, 33 and 70 (this is really disgusting), and the disallowance of any criticism of the religion, Mohammed or the Koran lest that “third threat” which is unique to Islam is used against a person.
Hopefully, you remember how I previously indicated to you that virtually all religions issue two threats—1) for not believing or doing this, that or the other thing, you will suffer in the next world; and 2) the deity or deities of a religion may punish you in this world for not believing or doing something. Here, Islam is no different from other religions.
But Islam is unique in having the “third threat,” i.e., its believers are not only allowed but encouraged to use force in this world in order to keep Islam “afloat” or spread it. Minus this third threat, Islam would be as innocuous as other religions are in the sense of what they teach. Of course, some from any other religion do and have acted badly one way or another in the name of their religion of choice, but with the exception of Islam this invariably entails them VIOLATING the tenets of their creed, a few exceptions to this general rule to be noted are violence condoned in the Old Testament but which is only for a time long ago and to acquire a very limited amount of land, in other words merely descriptive contra the Koran’s instructions which are always prescriptive, and the caste system established by Hinduism). It’s the damn “third threat,” lebel, that makes Islam so terrible and even evil. Grasp this and quit setting up the straw man about how a site like Jihad Watch is for haters of all Muslims. No, it is not. It is a site that is a hater of that “third threat” I have mentioned. Minus the “third threat,” unique to Islam, Jihad Watch would not have to exist and the over 35,000 documented Islamic terror attacks that have occurred just since 9/11 would, virtually without exception, not have occurred.
The “third threat,” lebel. Concentrate on this and address this point if you will because this is what makes Islam iniquitous and why no other major faith is. No more straw men, OK?
lebel says
“It’s the damn “third threat,” lebel, that makes Islam so terrible and even evil. Grasp this and quit setting up the straw man about how a site like Jihad Watch is for haters of all Muslims. No, it is not. It is a site that is a hater of that “third threat” I have mentioned. Minus the “third threat”
Firstly thanks for a well thought post devoid of insult and assumptions. It’s a rarity these days. This is the reason I am taking the time to write a response.
I can see how the third threat can and has been a reality for some Muslims. These are the jihadists. these are the people I consider enemies (**to GI, Angemont & co., yes this is taqqiya and kitman as of course I am lying and fully support jihadis and all evil things so there’s no need to point it out since I have just done it myself**)
Here’s my question. Why can’t you separate the Jihadis from the Muslims? why can’t you see that these are two different groups? when you see the jihadis killing Muslims that don’t want their Islam (Such as in Algeria, Libya, Syria etc). why can’t you come to the conclusion that most Muslims do not agree with them and that most Muslims are not interested in this interpretation of Islam?
So you’re saying that their interpretation of Islam is the wrong one and that the jihadis are right? so what? don’t you want them to have the wrong interpretation? you might then say that the right interpretation is a permanent threat to you or freedom but all ideologies have interpretations that are permanent threats. Nationalism can be good but at its extreme it is national-socialism. Socialism can be good but at the extreme end we have Stalinism. Is Stalinism the “real” socialism or communism? maybe it is but it does not really make a difference? People find a way to commit evil (even in the name of good). They managed to do it in the name of someone who preached pacifism (Jesus) and they managed to do it in the name of doctrine that preaches freedom, brotherhood and equality (communism). This is going to happen again and again because of the myriad of factors at the root of conflict of which religion is just one among many.
Robert Spencer knows that most Muslims are not like the Jihadis, this is how taqqiya came about. It enables you to dismiss any of the behavior I outlined above as some kind of deception. This is how in the end people can come to see secular leftist allies who stood next to them fighting jihadis as just another bunch of evil Muslims.
Wellington says
First of all, lebel, I want to thank you for your non-insulting response as you thanked me for mine. I would prefer in the future respecting any disagreement we have that we both agree to disagree amicably, however extensive our disagreements. Here, on this one matter, I think we can be in accord.
Now, as to your chief query, to wit, why can’t I separate the Jihadis from the Muslims, my response is that the Jihadis have the Islamic theological blueprint down the most accurately contra Christians who killed in the name of their faith having their theological blueprint down not accurately at all.
I welcome the fact that there are some Muslims, hopefully very many, who don’t want to kill a Muslim who converts to another religion, or who don’t want to harm anyone who criticizes or mocks Islam, Mohammed or the Koran, or who don’t think a non-Muslim woman who does not “cover herself” is worthy of rape, etc., BUT such Muslims are going AGAINST the dictates of Islam and, ironically, are in opposition to their creed, contra, say Christians, who would harm someone for mocking Christianity or dare rape a non-Christian woman (for whatever ill-thought-out reason) or kill a Christian who has converted to another religion (or no religion at all).
In short, lebel, theory matters. A lot. And the theory of Christianity and Buddhism, as two examples, don’t in any way require death for apostasy, condone rape under any circumstances, or harm to anyone who would dare castigate these two religions. But Islam in theory does—and herein lies the REAL PROBLEM, i.e., Islam in theory is a menace to all kinds of wonderful things—liberty, equality under the law, a true Golden Rule for all, the right to try and convert someone to your religion who belongs to another religion, etc.
Put another way, I think accurately but sadly, is Robert Spencer himself asserting that if you are a Muslim and a good person, then you must be a bad Muslim. As an example, and buttressing Spencer’s contention here, how do 109 verses in the Koran calling for war to be made upon mankind “until all the world is with Allah” {Sura 8:39}, v. 0 verses in the New Testament calling upon Christians to do such, support your attempt to exculpate Islam in toto?
Your turn, lebel.
P.S. Your examples which you proffered, i.e., nationalism and socialism, don’t really add up to a convincing argument. Respecting the first, nationalism at its finest does not equate to not fully respecting other nations and their respective cultures (indeed, here I prefer the word “patriotism” rather than the term “nationalism” but I’m fine with the term “nationalism” if it is not understood in its most boorish aspect)–and socialism can never be good, I would contend, and to the extent that it has ever worked it feeds off an already existing capitalistic structure.
gravenimage says
lebel wrote:
I can see how the third threat can and has been a reality for some Muslims.
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Jihad and oppression under Shari’ah is orthodox Islam–not something that a few fringe Muslims came up with, as lebel implies.
More:
These are the jihadists. these are the people I consider enemies (**to GI, Angemont & co., yes this is taqqiya and kitman as of course I am lying and fully support jihadis and all evil things so there’s no need to point it out since I have just done it myself**)
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lebel always does this–he only condemns Jihad when pushed to do so, as posters above have urged him to do, including myself. The implication that in his constant slander of Anti-Jihadists that he is actually opposing Jihad himself is laughable–just look at this thread.
More:
Here’s my question. Why can’t you separate the Jihadis from the Muslims? why can’t you see that these are two different groups?
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A majority of Muslims even in the US openly say they want to impose brutal Shari’ah law on us–numbers are much higher where Muslims are in control. The idea that this is irrelevant and that most Muslims reject the tenets of Islam is absurd.
More:
when you see the jihadis killing Muslims that don’t want their Islam (Such as in Algeria, Libya, Syria etc). why can’t you come to the conclusion that most Muslims do not agree with them and that most Muslims are not interested in this interpretation of Islam?
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The implication that where Muslims are killing Muslims that it always means that one side rejects Islam is just absurd. Do the Houthis or Al Qaida in Yemen reject Islam? Do any of the various Islamist parties in Somalia reject Islam? In many cases where Muslims attack other Muslims it is jockeying for power, not an attempt by one side or the other to do away with Islam.
More:
So you’re saying that their interpretation of Islam is the wrong one and that the jihadis are right? so what? don’t you want them to have the wrong interpretation?
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Some Muslims are lax, but very few actually reject the tenets of Islam. And what is lebel recommending here? Even if one were to assume–with no real basis–that he rejects ISIS and Al Qaida, does that mean that he is for the flogging of those who sip alcohol (“moderate” Indonesia), or systematically oppress Infidels (all Muslim states, including “moderate” Malaysia), or wink at “Honor Killings” (including “moderate” Jordan, which imprisons the victims of attempted “Honor Killings”)–I can go on, but why bother? It would be good to know which of these lebel hopes we will pretend is a rejection of Islam.
More:
you might then say that the right interpretation is a permanent threat to you or freedom but all ideologies have interpretations that are permanent threats. Nationalism can be good but at its extreme it is national-socialism. Socialism can be good but at the extreme end we have Stalinism. Is Stalinism the “real” socialism or communism? maybe it is but it does not really make a difference?
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The implication that every ideology is the same–that democracy is no different from fascism and that the only problem is taking them too far is just grotesque.
More:
Robert Spencer knows that most Muslims are not like the Jihadis, this is how taqqiya came about.
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This is odd, since lebel has many times sneered at the idea that Taqiyya exists at all.
But his pretending here that those who use Taqiyya have only done so in order to resist the whole concept of Jihad is just bizarre. The original use of Taqiyya specifically–although not the origin of lying for Islam in general–began with Shia who would lie to murderous majority Sunnis, who consider Shi’ites to be heretics.
Does this mean that all Shia reject Jihad? Of course not. The Mullahs scream “Death to America!” and “Death to Israel!”. Muslims are a threat to each other; this does not mean that they are not also a threat to Infidels.
In fact, hating Infidels is something that all pious Muslims can agree on.
More:
It enables you to dismiss any of the behavior I outlined above as some kind of deception. This is how in the end people can come to see secular leftist allies who stood next to them fighting jihadis as just another bunch of evil Muslims.
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Imposing Jizya is not “secular”–it is mainstream Islam.
As have noted several times on this thread, the Kurds have been among the best of the Muslim factions in the region–although when some of the other factions are ISIS and Erdogan, this may mean less than it would otherwise.
Angemon says
“Firstly thanks for a well thought post devoid of insult and assumptions. It’s a rarity these days. 2
Says the guy who opened a post with “When I say that jihadwatchers believe as you believe, I get GI and Angemont jumping in for damage control and trying to change the subject through ad hominems“.
And then writes:
“(**to GI, Angemont & co., yes this is taqqiya and kitman as of course I am lying and fully support jihadis and all evil things so there’s no need to point it out since I have just done it myself**)”
I guess it’s OK when he does it but not OK when someone else allegedly does it… Of course, no quote of mine, for example, accusing him of taqqyia, is to be seen because… well, the most obvious reason of all – I never did what he accuses me of.
(on that note, were someone here to take the words of islamic supremacists who post here and say “muslims believe as you believe“, I’m certain lebel would object – again, I guess it’s ok when he does it but not OK when someone else does it)
“Here’s my question. Why can’t you separate the Jihadis from the Muslims? why can’t you see that these are two different groups?”
Aren’t jihadis muslims to begin with? Are there “muslim mosques” and “jihadi mosques”, each with their own literature and teachings? Can you tell a “muslim” from a “jihadi”? Can muslim-majority countries suffering under islamic terrorism look at their citizens and make that distinction? And, again, aren’t jiahdis muslims to begin with?
Angemon says
“Robert Spencer knows that most Muslims are not like the Jihadis, this is how taqqiya came about. ”
As per my Oct 10, 2019 at 5:21 pm post:
lebel, 2015:
“Can we now agree that if taqqiya really existed, Muslims would do just that in order to fool the naive infidels?”
lebel, 2019:
“By the way, if Taqqiya is real why DONT Muslim say they are against terrorism and Islamic jihad? why not just lie as they are ORDERED to do by Islam?”
Now:
lebel, 2019:
“…this is how taqqiya came about”
Of course, were I to call lebel dishonest on the grounds he knows taqqyia is a thing and spent years pretending it didn’t exist would get crys of “insult” from him. In any case, when, exactly, taqqyia came about? You certainly denied its existence in 2015. And earlier this year. Isn’t that dishonest on your part? Also, taqqqyia didn’t came about to differentiate “muslims” from “jihadis” – it came about to justify muslims lying about their religion. Shia muslims, to be exact, but sunni have the functional equivalent.
gravenimage says
Of course, Angemon, Taqiyya–and the other forms of Islamic lying–are *tactics*. as lebel knows quite well. Muslims do not always lie to Infidels, especially when they are especially emboldened.
Angemon says
“It is irrational”
Why is fear of islam irrational?
Spiro says
The past presidents Bush Clinton Bush and Obama set this whole thing up by getting involved in the Middle East
Kurds and Turks are both Islamist they have been fighting
each other in eastern turkey for many years
This is nothing new and stop acting like the Kurds are so sweet and wonderful they used us to help go after their enemies in Syria and Iraq they also persecuted Christians
Ask the Armenian people 1922 did the Kurds come to their aid
Pres Trumps duty is to the US not to countries wholive for jihad
B T Y what’s the troop count that’s being removed anybody know how many
SAFI says
“Ask the Armenian people 1922 did the Kurds come to their aid” 1922? The Armenian Genocide happened a few years earlier. By 1922 the Kurds were all kemalists (that is until Kemal turned against them- after having lied to them, promising them autonomy in order to recruit them to his cause). But since we already know the answer to your rhetorical question, please allow me to ask… WHO DID HELP the Armenians then? Russia? Britain? France? Woodrow Wilson’s America? (who presented himself at Paris as the biggest advocate of the Armenians – hence the phrase “Wilsonian Armenia”) The correct answer is none of the above of course. Now which president from Wilson onwards ever made the slightest attempt to recognise the events for which you hold the Kurds accountable. Well we all remember the way Obama the liar went back on his electoral promise to do so. But Donald Trump is not at all like Obama. I’m sure he’ll be the first President to do the right thing. So what is he waiting for? Is he planning to do it before or after he signs that $45 billion contract with Erdogan? https://ahvalnews.com/boeing/erdogans-newly-announced-100-boeing-purchase-cost-44-billion-turkish-daily (oh well, I guess in this the Armenians can go hang themselves. Doing business with Turkey is much more important. America First.)
Ernie says
Spiro , 1922 is nearly a 100 years ago . Not exactly recently I would say . Live goes on . ( or : get over it ! ) .
gravenimage says
I have not forgotten the Armenian Genocide–nor have I forgotten the Holocaust, though both happened before I was born.
The problem is that Muslims have never condemned the Armenian Genocide–they have either aggressively denied it, or else have followed it by slaughtering more Infidels, or both. There is a genocide against Christians *right now* in much of the Middle East and in Africa.
SAFI says
So when did the White House/ Pentagon/ State Department/ CIA “discover” the Kurds marxist connections? Like 2 days ago? Is the CIA really that incompetent? America(and Israel) kept arming those marxist terrorists for all those years? Or was the Worker’s Party of Kurdistan on the side of Free Enterprise and only converted to evil islamic marxism last month?
Jay says
I’m not real certain who is more dangerous, Muslims, or stupid Americans who don’t see how dangerous they are and holler “you’re a hater” when someone tries to point out the danger. Dad always said that he wasn’t nearly as concerned about individual criminals and terrorists as he was about the millions of dead heads walking around in the civilian population who just go along with whatever popular opinion, politicians and MSM news tells them.
gravenimage says
Those filthy Americans! How *dare* they have defeated the Islamic State. huh? What would dear old dad have said about that? Would he have not cared because they were “just” terrorists?
Jay says
grave, I’m not sure you understood my comments. So let me put it a little more clearly. It is in fact mainstream media, politicians and popular opinion that has gotten America into the trouble that it is now experiencing with terrorists and criminals. Politicians because they are bribed, MSM because they are owned by America’s enemies, and the general population because they are so dumb that they go along with any agenda that the other two happen to set. That’s what makes the so-called unbiased brain dead public the most dangerous of all.
gravenimage says
Most politicians are pretty clueless–I doubt many are bribed by Muslims.
Paddy O'Connor says
If one were to refer to Kurds,Syrians,Palestinians,etc.,etc.,etc., as Mohammedans,ie.Kurdish Mohammedans,Syrian Mohammedans,Palestinian Mohammedans,etc., in the media and generally then we would understand the issues much better.
As for the Kurdish Mohammedans read up on the Armenian genocide to get rid of any starry-eyed misperception of their true nature.That true nature is ‘Mohammed’!