It is foolish in the extreme, and ultimately self-defeating, to keep troops anywhere indefinitely, with no end point, no plan for victory, no clear goal — that just saps the nation’s resources and produces no good result. Anytime we leave Syria or anywhere else, anti-American elements will do their best to capitalize on our absence. But if the answer to this is to keep troops everywhere, then they will never come home, and we will need to send them into many more countries than those they’re currently in.
That way lies madness. And destruction. What is needed instead is a massive reevaluation of the basic assumptions of U.S. foreign policy, so that our energies, and our armed forces, are directed much more efficiently than they are now to blunting the force of the global jihad. We can hope that with the withdrawal from Syria, that reevaluation is on the horizon.
“Trump says he’s ‘not siding with anybody’ with Syria withdrawal,” by Kathryn Watson, CBS News, October 7, 2019:
Washington — President Trump didn’t let intense Republican criticism of his decision to withdraw troops from northern Syria rattle him Monday, insisting he made the right call in deciding to leave the unstable region to Turkey and other actors.
Experts and the president’s own allies like Senator Lindsey Graham fear the decision to withdraw from the region will endanger Kurdish allies there, with Turkey threatening to overwhelm them. Mr. Trump, asked why he’s siding with authoritarian Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan over Kurdish allies, insisted he’s not siding with anyone and is adhering to his campaign promise of “America first.”
“I’m not siding with anybody. We’ve been in Syria for many years. You know, Syria was supposed to be a short-term hit,” the president said in the Roosevelt Room, where he signed two trade agreements with Japan.
The president said he’s leaving the region in the hands of Turkey, Russia, Iran, Iraq and Syria — which is exactly what allies fear. Mr. Trump explained that he campaigned on pulling the U.S. out of needless wars in the Middle East, and noted the worst part of his job is writing to families of American soldiers who died….
mortimer says
As soon as US troops leave the region, Turkey will begin a genocide against the Kurdish people. GOD SAVE THE KURDS FROM TURKS if the US won’t. I consider abandoning our Kurdish allies to be reprehensible.
mortimer says
The US should maintain a military base and airfield in ‘Kurdistan’. They are the only true allies in the region. There should be an independent Kurdistan.
Infidel says
How about we first legally define what is an independent ‘Kurdistan’? Is it just the Syrian parts where the Kurds live? How about in Iraq, where a majority voted for independence in a referandum? And how does that affect out standing vis a vis Turkey, given that both countries are NATO members? I know that in the real world, Turkey is not our ally, but that’s now how it is when both countries remain in NATO
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
“Trump says US not abandoning Kurds, again threatens ‘partner’ Turkey with economic devastation”
https://www.rt.com/usa/470443-trump-syria-kurds-soldiers/
“White House Clarifies: Donald Trump Moving 50 Troops Within Syria, Not Out of the Country”
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/10/07/white-house-clarifies-donald-trump-moving-50-troops-within-syria-not-out-of-the-country/
Infidel says
Flavius, if this should happen, how would ‘NATO’ resolve this?
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
I’m just providing the links to related stories to add more info to the discussion.
One can get oneself into a pretty pickle when one gets involved in other people’s fights.
If NATO were signed today, Turkey would not make the roster. The US and/or Europe may decide to align itself with the Kurds instead and allow for a Kurdistan. Then in 15 years this Kurdistan engages in the same kind of expansionist adventures as Erdoğan’s Turkey. Can’t win.
NATO, the dinosaur, will take a long time to disappear. Too many influential people at the trough.
SAFI says
Kurdistan or not, it would be a dick move to completely abandon the Kurds now, and it could seriously damage America’s “credibility” in the eyes of many others, friends and foes alike.
Ajay says
I can definitely see a lot of bloodshed. God help those people. ??
Trick_or_Treat says
…we are very rapidly heading towards Isaiah 17:1; Daniel 9:25-27; and Ezekiel 38/39.
Even so, come Lord Jesus, El Shaddai. Maranatha.
Wellington says
mortimer: Just because we are pulling our troops out does not mean we are abandoning the Kurds. First of all, a people must fight for their own freedom—I’m tired of America having to do this, with Vietnam being one of many examples. Second, Trump could indicate to the Turks that should they attempt a genocide against the Kurds, we will take all kinds of measures—economic, diplomatic and even military intervention. Third, Trump could signal to the Turks another way by very publicly announcing that we are increasing our military aid to the Kurds as of now.
I agree there should be an independent Kurdistan but I just don’t think it’s in the cards for this to happen de jure, though de facto, yes. That’s pretty much the situation now, though not including all Kurdish occupied real estate spread out over four countries. And let’s not forget that while the Kurds are our second best allies in the Middle East (Israel is easily first), they are still Muslim and as Hugh Fitzgerald himself wrote in an article here at JW not that long ago the Kurds have been putting the screws on non-Muslims where they are in control, with Christians most definitely feeling the brunt of this.
Westman says
I tend to agree with you Wellington.
The Kurds are superior fighters in comparison to the Turks who will be an organized army dealing with guerrillas supplied by allies. The historic fighting between Turkey and the Kurds exceeds our lifetime.
Both Dems and GOPs are going crazy over Trump’s intention to pull out of Syria. This move just might have a secondary purpose to give Iran’s Mullahs enough rope to overplay their hand and justify an attack on them. The US troop drawdown in Syria may be to make them available, elsewhere.
Israel cannot afford to wait while Iran provides accurate missiles and retrofits for existing missiles to Hezbollah. Saudi Arabia might also join a coalition if Iran or its proxies try another attack. All three nations would benefit from the reduction of Iran’s capabilities. I’m betting that a military conflict with Iran will begin before the 2020 POTUS election.
Janice Mermikli says
Excellent post. This could be a viable strategy.
Infidel says
Wellington, agree w/ you, and there’s more to it than what you said – about US always being in front, and the Kurds behaving like the Muslims they are w/ respect to Christians.
None of the GOP Neocons who’ve been critical of Trump – Graham, Haley, Romney, Rubio, et al – have called for the formal establishment of an independent Kurdistan, or for carving out an independent Kurdistan out of Iraq or Syria. Nor has there been any Congressional resolution approving the use of force against Turkey in defense of the Kurds: we’re not legally at war on the behalf of the latter. In the case of Iraq, the Kurds voted for an independent Kurdistan in a referandum, but none of those Kurdistan fans in the GOP urged the State Department to recognize them. Nor have they asked for the US to recognize such an entity in Syria. If Kurdistan is such a sacred cow, they could have arranged for Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan to be consolidated into a single independent entity (a la Kosovo), while assuring Ankara that Turkey’s territorial integrity would be respected. They didn’t. US troops can’t be expected to be in some nebulous area whose legal jurisdictions won’t be defined: the government of Syria doesn’t want us there, and we won’t recognize a Kurdistan even in Syrian borders, so on whose basis are we there?
Also, like Tucker Carlson pointed out, right now, both the US and Turkey are members of NATO. Implying, under Article 5, that if Turkey is attacked by anybody from outside its borders, that the US is treaty-bound to defend Turkey. And if Trump or anybody questions why the US is still in NATO, they’re upbraided for even questioning why such an agreement in place since 1945 would be touched. In the meantime, we are expected to keep troops there in the firing line b/w the Turks and the Kurds. Has anybody even thought about the NATO level legal ramifications if there’s an actual face-off b/w US and Turkish troops?
I’m all for us stepping up military aid to the Kurds – in terms of weapons and munitions. And for what the president threatened yesterday – to squeeze their economy – as he did w/ sanctions over Andrew Brunson – if they dared overstep w/ regards to the Kurds. But in the absence of a de-jure recognition of a Kurdish entity in either Syria or Iraq, he’s fully justified in pulling US troops out of there.
lebel says
“And let’s not forget that while the Kurds are our second best allies in the Middle East (Israel is easily first), they are still Muslim”
This is the key, nothing else needs to be said. Thanks Wellington.
Wonder if the Kurds are listening? will they finally get the message?
Wellington says
lebel: The freest, most democratic polity in the Middle East is Israel, easily so. In fact, Israeli-Arab Muslims have more rights in said country than do Muslim Arabs in the more than twenty Arab countries that exist. This is a damning, telling and highly instructive fact.
Sorry, lebel, but Islam sucks many times over and is a mortal enemy of freedom. This does not mean that free polities can’t or shouldn’t work with some Muslims against other Muslims, but those in free nations should NEVER forget that Islam is not an ally of liberty.
Nothing else needs to be said.
gravenimage says
lebel’s implication that one cannot note that the Kurds are still Muslim is ludicrous. It is important that we go into every international situation clear-eyed–something that has rarely been observed.
Of late, the Kurds have, hand’s down, been the best in the region, and the most plausible faction for free nations to ally with. That being said, they have still savagely beaten Christians who took sanctuary in Kurdish Iraq if they don’t vote as the Kurdish block desires.
Still better than most of the area? Yes–but this is, sometimes, damning with faint praise, as it well should be.
Infidel says
The message that the Kurds need to get is not what the US thinks of them, but whether they being steadfastly Muslim has done them any good vis a vis any of their neighbors – Arabs, Turks or Iranians
RonaldB says
Wellington. Great comment. I’ll add a few cents here.
I don’t think the US has an interest in forming military alliances anywhere if its not directly related to US security. There is a difference between US interests and US security. Keep in mind both World War I and World War II began by the countries being sucked in by alliances they came to regret by the time hostilities actually began. Russia is an economically underdeveloped country with a decreasing and declining non-Muslim population. The whole NATO alliance is out of date and counter-productive. I don’t care what Russia does with Ukraine and the Crimea. Given the populations involved, it’s probably better that Crimea is attached to Russia.
As far as Syria and the Kurds, it is emphatically not in the US interests to get involved on either side. It was not a bad situation after the first Gulf War, when the US spent minimum resources protecting the Kurdish enclave of Iraq. It’s true that terrorists were able to operate out of the Kurdish region, while they were fed into plastic shredders in Hussein’s Iraq, but it didn’t affect the US that much one way or another. Unfortunately, George W Bush demolished the whole arrangement.
I think it should be up to Israel to form its necessary alliances. It already has a semi-formal alliance with Saudi Arabia, which may or may not be wise, considering Saudi Arabia is unable to dominate a bunch or rebels next door to it. Sawing up a person who voluntarily enters their embassy might be the extent of their military competence.
I personally think the Palestinians are getting exactly what they deserve. They glorify violence and terrorism, and harassed Israelis to the point that Israel had to build a wall. But, it may be that Israel has to make some sort of peace offering to Iran: give Iran the opportunity to chair a negotiation with the Palestinians, for example. Real politics is not always one-to-one with absolute justice.
What I do not favor is open military support for Israel, permitting Israel to avoid tough compromise and negotiation. I’m not saying Israel is at fault. I’m saying, it’s up to them to make the best of their situation. Finland existed as a semi-free state right next to the USSR for 50 years. They had to make the necessary compromises, but did so while remaining Finish. Unfortunately, right now they seem to be throwing away their national identity for the same of immigration virtue-signalling.
Terry Gain says
I respectfully disagree with President Trumps apparent decision to withdraw all troops from the ME. I don’t think it would take very many American troops to deter Turkey from entering Syria. And the small number needed to deter Turkey need not be in any more danger than the troops still in Germany after 75 years.
And it is nonsense to claim the Kurds are not being (mercilessly) abandoned. They are great fighters but they do not have the military equipment to fight Turkey.
The madman Erdogan needs to be stopped in his tracks. He has a Muhammad complex.
SAFI says
Agreed. The “Kurds are Muslim” mantra is not helpful understand the situation (bytheway the truly islamic Kurds in Turkey tend to vote for Erdogan’s party)
And its false to claim, as some people do, “we don’t owe anything to the Kurds”. The Kurds did in fact do all the heavy lifting in the fight against ISIS.
Tony Taquey says
Why should the USA and its armed forces be involved with these moslems people
Dawne says
This Muslim tribal warfare between its different sects will never cease, in the same way that their desire to wage jihad on non Muslims will never cease. So to protect the Kurds, US or NATO troops would have to be in the region forever.
What is the alternative to the US becoming more isolationist?
elee says
I agree with mortimers post at the head of this thread. I would add that any trust whatever is invested in Recep Tayyip Erdogan is at best waasted. Wasted that is.
gravenimage says
Yes–Erdogan is no ally of ours, and Turkey should have been kicked out of NATO long since.
GreekEmpress says
+1
Infidel says
Granted, but that ground reality is not reflected by the fact that both the US and Turkey are still NATO members, and therefore, under Article 5, if Turkey is attacked, we are treaty obligated to protect them! No matter how reprehensible they are.
We need to exit NATO – in fact, we are 30 years late to this. And please spare us the ‘NATO invoked Article 5 the only time after 9/11’: that’s a war we fought and won on our own, before nation-building became a project of the Bush doctrine
SAFI says
Infidel, Article 5 is a joke. I can assure you no NATO army will be rushing to Turkey’s help even if Turkey could realistically somehow be “attacked”. The Turks also know that, that’s why the didn’t try to escalate the 2015 crisis with Russia (when they took down a Russian fighter killing its pilot) but instead Erdogan was quick to beg Turkey’s forgiveness.
They knew NATO wasn’t gonna have their backs, not even againgst Russia (much less against the kurdish “terrorists”)
SAFI says
I meant “beg Putin’s forgiveness”. My mistake.
Infidel says
SAFI, that may be true, but Turkey could then – in diplomatic circled – reasonably demand that NATO back them, since they’re a part of NATO and the Kurds aren’t.
In 2015, the West was pretty weak and Turkey knew it, which is why they quickly had a rapproachment w/ Russia.
It’s not Article 5 that’s a joke – NATO itself is a joke. It’s about as relevant today as the League of Nations. Its purpose ended in 1990, when the Warsaw Pact was wound up. At least, the Soviets were sensible enough to terminate an organization when its purpose had ended. The West – not so much
Terry Gain says
Mortimer
I wholeheartedly agree.
UNCLE VLADDI says
Kurds are Muslims. They helped the Turks genocide the Armenians. Saladin was a Kurd. Grow up, Morty!
Infidel says
Yeah, this point is often overlooked – that whenever there was a Christian vs Muslim war in the region, like for instance, the Crusades, the Kurds fought on the Muslim side – b’cos they were Muslims. Only exception was the Gulf wars, when the US ousted Saddam Hussein: the Kurds were not suicidal to follow Saddam down that path.
But other than that, as Wellington and Gravenimage pointed out, not only are the Kurds Muslim, they’ve also persecuted non-Muslims in their controlled areas, as well as cracked down on Islam dissenters. So we need to stop pretending that they are sacred cows that need to be protected at ALL costs. Some costs, maybe, but not all
Ajay says
Will we see more henious crimes by the Jihaadis now that US troops are going back ?
UNCLE VLADDI says
Re: “Will we see more henious crimes by the Jihaadis now that US troops are going back?”
No, because neither Russia nor Assad would put up with any more crap from ISIS, once the Western victimology media leaves them alone to clean house. Turkey may want to rule the Caliphate, but again: Russia, Syria and Iran would have something to say about that, too!
😉
Infidel says
True. What is now overlooked is that there are largely 3 sides in the Muslim civil war in the region. There is Saudis and their Arab
puppetsallies – Jordan, UAE, Kuwait, Bahrein. Then there are the Iranians and their allies – Syria, Iraq (whenever the US ain’t calling the shots in Baghdad), and myriad Shi’ite jihadist groups – Hizbullah, Houthis, Mahdi Army and so on. Finally, there is Turkey, which aside from alliances it’s been working on in the racial aspect of their nationalism – backs Muslim Brotherhood and their backers – Qatar, Sudan, SomaliaSo it makes little sense for the US to be caught up in all of this, and in fact, once we withdraw, these 3 powers in the region will be forced to come to terms. If we wanna protect Kurdistan, there are 2 things we need to do: either get Turkey kicked out of NATO or leave NATO ourselves, and second: carve out and recognize an independent Kurdistan – either in Syria or/and Iraq. THEN make defense arrangements w/ that sovereign entity. But we’re in a legal soup if we are in alliance w/ what’s little more than a militia against a country that shares a DEFENSE CLUB w/ us – NATO
mortimer says
The US defeated both Germany and Japan and US troops are still in both countries.
Rarely says
The U.S. had a little help in WWII from the USSR, Britain and a few others but why split hairs? It’s been a long time (a VERY long time) since U.S. troops have been in Germany or Japan to police those countries. Any parallel is pretty far fetched and a non-starter. With the singular exception of Desert Storm the U.S, has not been very clever in choosing when and where to fight since the Korean War.
gravenimage says
True–we have bases in both nations, but are there as allies, not, as you note, to police the populace.
Infidel says
And they need to be pulled out – of Germany! Right now, there are US troops in 150 countries – out of a total of 190. We can’t be the world’s policeman, and we need to rid ourselves of that British invention called the ‘White Man’s burden’. We have troops in Latin America, Africa, Middle East, Europe – which absolutely have no business being there.
China is our #1 enemy today, and our troops need to be arranged accordingly – spread across Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines and – if they’d have us – Vietnam. Beyond that, there’s no reason for our troops to be in places like Mozambique, Ethiopia, Cameroon, Bolivia, Germany, Iceland or anywhere else
Kepha says
Ahhh, but, since you mention Taiwan, there’s a first-class example of a US ally thrown to the wolves..
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
“The US defeated both Germany and Japan and …”
Might be true regarding Japan but certainly NOT true regarding Nazi Germany. What defeated Nazi Germany was a LOT of spilled Russian blood, and Churchill’s successful program of drawing the US into the war. Everyone knew that the Nazis had lost once American economic might was involved.
Rarely says
Flavius.
I missed something in my history education. I thought that the Pearl Harbor incident (where someone did something) set the US at war with Japan and that a few days later Germany declared war on the US.
Certainly the US gave a lot of help to Britain before Pearl but Britain certainly did not “draw the US into the war”. Are you reading those Neo-Nazi websites again? Sounds like it.
Rarely says
BTW Flavius. Victory against Germany was hardly assured once US economic might was involved. Germany was in the late stages of developing useful jet aircraft, was making significant use of rocketry and may very well have developed a nuclear weapon had US military might not intervened. Had Britain fallen the whole story could easily have been different. The US had a choice alright — fight the war in Europe or wait a few years and fight it on American soil. “Churchill drew the US into the war”??? There’s a spot for you on SNL.
Kepha says
And keep in mind that China had close to a million Japanese troops tied down between 1937-45. Had Chiang’s government made the separate peace with Japan that was often offered, we would’ve faced a far harder fight in the Pacific.
Rarely says
History will doubtlessly give Dubya credit as the U.S.’s stupidest president…and that’s going some.
Don McKellar says
The stupidest president followed up by the slickest empty suit conman. What a beating that tag team unleashed on the United States and what chaos they unleashed on the world.
Rarely says
It’s very hard to find the right words to describe Obama but “slickest empty suit conman” isn’t a bad start.
gravenimage says
I think Obama was *much* worse than Bush.
Infidel says
Arguable, although I’m no fan of Obama. Like Obama got it wrong in Iraq by doing a wholesale pullout and that too signaled very early.
Otoh, we never so much as touched Pakistan under Bush: we just were happy to listen to all of Musharraf’s lies, even though we knew better. I know we hate it when Hilary and Obama ran those videos of how they tracked the operation to kill Osama, but what they did – keeping Pakistan in the dark while executing that – was something Bush never thought of doing.
If Mullah Omar had been sly enough to do what Musharraf did, we wouldn’t have attacked Afghanistan either. Bottom line: for the purposes of this war, Pakistan and Afghanistan were one country, even if their leaders pretended otherwise
But then again, there was the other stupidity of Obama in militarily supporting the removal of Col Gadaffi, when there was no reason to: he was reformed, Libya’s relations w/ the West had been normalized, he had turned over their WMDs… In fact, turning on Libya was one of the lessons that Kim Jong Un took from it, and who can blame him? Even if Trump honors all promises not to overthrow him, what’s to say that a future post Trump administration won’t?
Bush vs Obama – it’s really a deadlock on who was more stupid
underbed cat says
Who or what was stupid(without awareness) was the clever substitution or not recognizing that of our first black leader, without understanding he was our first genius muslim President, who with his Harvard credentials aided by connections to the world’s richest man Talah, and American Muslims organizations was almost able to change America into the” largest Islamic country”, his words, and sell the public, press and influence Europe , Islam doctrine was peaceful tolerant and coordinated with the MB to further the goals of Islam. After years of deception that is used to spread Mohammedism Pres. Bush may have been economically tied to SA for good oil prices, and served up plenty, while doing so unaware of the Quran doctrine of conquest, goals of Islam….but for the shocking experience wake up call , of 9/11. Yet, he had the aftermath of the love bombing from SA perfected dawah…if he hasn’t figured out he was as most seduced by deception….it just takes a simply reading of the book called the Quran to kind of get the whiff that it is not as presented or realize there was not 1 Russian on the plane that did something like fly into NY.using our own airplanes Clever. How the election that followed occurred the fundamental change, this all after this attack still shocks me to the core.
Don McKellar says
The Kurds in question are Marxist / Socialists who will now be forced to take the peace with Syria that has already been offered and rejoin their old allies Russia. Trump has checkmated all the players in the conflict with this move, forcing them to solve their own problems and fight their own fights. Another brilliant foreign policy move.
I always laugh when I see people go bonkers over Trump praising dictators and talking about being friends. The despot in Turkey is no different. Have none of these pundits on TV ever heard of the phrase: “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer”??? Idiots.
Infidel says
The Kurds who are Marxists are Turkey’s PKK. The Syrian Kurds have no beef w/ Ankara, but Turkey doesn’t want an independent Kurdistan anywhere b’cos even an independent Kurdistan outside their borders would be an inspiration to their own secessionists.
But yeah, until the US officially – through an act of Congress – recognizes an independent Kurdistan anywhere, it has no business sending our troops there where the legal basis of them being there is questionable at best. Let the Romneys, Rubios, Grahams all pass a resolution recognizing an independent Kurdistan within Syria’s north east borders, and then we can arrange w/ such a government what the defense arrangement should be
Bxgirl says
I heard Col. MacGregor stating the same. I’m hoping this analysis is correct. Especially interesting when you bring Iran into the mix with Russia and Syria.
Infidel says
Col MacGregor was guilty of conflating the Turkey-Kurdish group PKK, which is a Marxist group, w/ the Syria-Kurdish group YPG. Other than that, his analysis was largely correct.
Iran and Russia may both be backing Assad, but they do not have identical goals in Syria. Iran wants to use Syria, as well as Lebanon, as launching pads for Jihad attacks on Israel. Russia, on the other hand, wants Syria to be an outlet to the Mediterranean, if they can get their products to Ladakiya to ship abroad.
There is also the Qatar-Turkey alliance, which sometimes works in tandem w/ Iran, and sometimes against, depending on the locale. For instance, any Iranian blockage of the Straits of Hormuz hurts Qatar, for whom that’s their only outlet to the open seas, while otoh, Qatar needs Iran to break the Saudi blocade and provide a passage to Turkey
somehistory says
There is an old song which has a line, “Walk a mile in my shoes. Before you abuse, criticize and accuse, walk a mile in my shoes.”
Whatever he does, he will be criticized. whatever he doesn’t do, he will be criticized. It is the nature of people to think they would know a better way, do a better thing, decide better, etc. A look at history tells one that a president who may have pleased many with a big decision, will be second-guessed by someone in his future. by man someones who think they would have done a better job, or that he shouldn’t have done whatever…
The Bible says, “Do not put your trust in nobles or the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.”
moslims in all parts of the world hate non moslims…even those who sacrifice money, time and lives to help them defeat their moslim enemies. And what group of moslims has ever made peace with any other group of people…moslim or non? The fighting will not end as long as islam exists and the killing and slaughter will go on as long as there is fighting.
Revelation 6, “…a great sword was given him and it was granted to take peace away from the earth.”
Rarely says
There’s nothing like Biblical quotes to clarify the situation. Duh. Not.
somehistory says
One can discern a lot about a person by what that person pretends to know.
Rarely says
One thing I don’t know and that’s what you’re talking about.
On the one hand you say islam must “disappear” suggesting a type of “religious war” presumably against virtually all other religions and on the other you claim to be against war.
I guess that only leaves two possibilities: a plague that kills only and all muslims or a sudden revelation whereby all muslims “see the light” and leave islam en masse.
What am I missing? Oh yes — continue on the present road to likely destruction.
somehistory says
This line by you is true…”One thing I don’t know and that’s what you’re talking about.”
The rest of what you wrote is way off base. And putting ” ” around a word or phrase I did not use is not a quote. You are trying to put words and meanings that are not there. And you did this because I quoted the Bible.
Rarely says
You are correct — I erroneously stated you claimed to be against war. You didn’t.
somehistory says
You, in fact, missed the entire point of my comment. You obviously do not read or understand Scripture or you would have a much better idea of what I was saying with my original comment on this article.
I expressed no opinion, either way, about war in general. I stated that moslims will remain at war…with themselves against each other, and against anyone else who is near enough to war with…as long as islam “exists.”
I quoted a portion of Revelation 6 where the “horsemen” ride and one of them has a “great sword”…taking “peace away from the earth.” This means war all over the world. And not just moslims fighting each other and non moslims…this is just what is going on currently. The Chinese and the Russians would just love to blow America to bits and they are not ruled by moslims…yet. They do carry on warfare, just not directly on a battlefield.
I also quoted the Psalm where we are told not to “put…trust” in men or a man because none of mankind…no matter how “noble,’ can save us.
I had this Scripture in mind when reading the article about Mr. Trump…and when I read the many news items elsewhere on this subject…and the comments people have made about his decision. Thinking about the decisions during WW2 regarding the bombing of German cities and the bombing of the two cities in Japan…and the critics then and since then, judging and re-judging, etc.
Everyone has an opinion about what should be done or not done….except that I do not have one. I know that the Bible says what is going to happen will…and each decision made by the leaders of the world take mankind that much closer to the war that will end all wars…as they claimed for WW2..or was it WW1… God’s war of Armageddon.
David says
Robert, I have much respect for you and I am a loyal reader.
It was sad for me to see that you are trying to justify, or at least mitigate the criticism of, the act of treachery and madness performed by Trump, who followed up with insane, egomaniac tweet praising his own “great and unmatched wisdom” (sic).
When the brave Kurds, who were the real boots on the ground in US’ fight against ISIS, will be massacred by the Turks, their blood will be, to the utter shame of all Americans, on Trump’s hands. Lindsay Graham has not failed to understand this.
Israel has definitely taken notice, and so did Iran and the Gulf states. Who do you think is going to consider America an ally to be relied on from now on?
elee says
+1
eduardo odraude says
I too am concerned that if we withdraw from the region, we should nevertheless do whatever else can be done to protect the Kurds. Trump apparently has already said he would destroy the Turkish economy if Turkey does anything to the Kurds.
David says
What Trump said about punishint Turkey is an incoherent blah blah and we all know it. He also said he has destroyed Turkish economy in the past. That’s a blatant lie. He never punished Turkey for buying S400.
He also never punished Iran for attacking Saud’s oil fields with cruise missiles. The message he is sending to the rogue countries, Iran first of all: America is weak and getting weaker every day. Go to Putin.
Maybe it is not immediately clear but in summary his actions are: TRUMP BETRAYED ISRAEL.
He also tried to justify his betrayal of Americans’ Kurdish brothers-in-arms by saying Turkey is a big trade partner of US . That’s a LIE. Turkish trade with US as of 2019 is a meagER $12bn. That’s peanuts.
The man’s an insult to intelligence and common sense. Let’s face it, he is ignorant, TREACHEROUS, and immoral. The Kurds are done for and their blood is on his hands.
carolyne says
He is a fine man who understands that a majority of his constituents do not want to be involved in foreign adventures. If we had not wasted billions in this pipe dream of democracy for people who not want it, think of how we could have improved our infrastructure and our border security. We could have made our cities inhabitable again. How can we waste our fortune in foreign wars when our major cities are afloat with human urine and excrement?
I am proud of our president. I voted for him in 2016 and I shall do so again in 2020.
carolyne says
Of course I meant “Habitable again.”
Ernie says
David , I agree with you a 100% . Thank you !
Infidel says
David, Turkey was punished – not for buying the S400, but for their imprisonment of Andrew Brunsom. That’s why the sanctions on them were imposed, and once he was released, they were lifted. Legally, Turkey is a sovereign country that can decide who it wants to buy weapons from, just like the US can just as legitimately deny the sale of weapons to a country that already has any type of Russian equivalent.
Besides, the whole controversy over the S400 misses the bigger point – that Turkey has interests that are way more hostile to the West than Russia’s interests. Russia’s interests are propping up regimes that are either their customers of military hardware – like Syria, or countries that can give them a passage to the sea – again Syria. Turkey, otoh, has a grand vision of resurrecting a Turkic empire that encompasses Ottoman, Timuride, Mughal, Seljik and other historic Turkic empires, and also bringing in its orbit countries that they ideologically sync w/ – like Pakistan, Malaysia, Qatar, Somalia and Sudan. The idea that in this environment Russia is a bigger threat than Turkey is a joke
As far as Israel goes, they’ve never had a more pro-US president. Reagan was harshly critical of Israel, for which he got a good lashing from Menachem Begin. Bush XLI was pretty anti-Israel, since he had in his circle established anti-Semites like James ‘F… the Jews’ Baker and John Sununu. Clinton and Obama did everything they could to interfere in Israeli elections to oust Netanyahu – Clinton actually once pulling it off. Bush XLIII was the first US president to recognize a Palestinian state, and the Bush state department refused to acknowledge Jerusalem as even a part of Israel, let alone its capital.
Trump, otoh, has not only transferred the embassy to Jerusalem – he’s also recognized the Israeli annexation of the Golan Heights – something that every president since Reagan actively opposed, despite the fact that back in those days, Syria was the closest client state of the Soviet Union, as well as a rival of every Arab country in the region, thanks to its support of Iran in the Iran-Iraq war of the 80s
Mark Swan says
The last two military involvements have put this Nation
in unbearable debt, such incredible debt will ruin us,
if we do not find a way out from under it.
The U.S. has so many internal problems and the resources to
address them, but not the way we have been proceeding.
President Trump has proven His willingness to try,
now, we must all support this effort.
There are so few individuals who would have done so much,
enduring so much hateful and uncalled for resistance.
elee says
+1 for David. IMHO of course. A righteous cause needs no alliance with any politician. If he proves himself capable of being a reliable ally, great. If not, dont take our cause down with him.
lebel says
Trump actually did a good thing by showing that the US will only help you while you’re useful (unless you’re Israel). Then you’ll get dropped like a sack of dirt. Hopefully the Kurds will learn that despite being secular and allies of America, they’re still just a bunch of evil Muslims.
Second, this is good for Russia. In fact, Russia is the big winner in Syria and the Middle East in general. This is a good thing as the world needs balance and Russia’s policy is more balanced and, crucially for the Middle East, it is not a vassal of Israel. This means it can be trusted to play the role of a mediator.
Lessons learned all around!
lebel says
Looks like not everyone got the message, here is the SDF spokesperson on twitter:
“We are humbled by the enormous support by American people and politicians despite
@POTUS decision to pave the way for Turkish invasion, which caused despair among people, and failure of security mechanism agreement. American people are true friends of the SDF.”
https://twitter.com/mustefabali
Talk about taqqiya! does he think we don’t know what the Qu’ran says about feigning friendship?
Sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet taqqiya
gravenimage says
I doubt that lebel is actually supporting the Kurds here–or opposing ISIS. This is just another chance for him to castigate America in general and Anti-Jihadists in particular.
Rarely says
lebel
What you are shouts out so loudly I can’t hear what you are saying.
elee says
If you find that your Presidents policy pleases lebel, be appalled.
gravenimage says
I don’t think that anything President Trump does pleases lebel, including defeating the Islamic State. he is just hoping to get his digs in at Jihad Watch readers.
pennant8 says
Just about everyone in that region including the Kurds are Muslims. The Kurds have both Sunni and Shia members plus a small percentage of non-Muslims in various sects. That’s the way it is throughout the Middle East in virtually every country where we have deployed our troops, aka infidels. It should be clear by now that Muslims have no problem with slaughtering their brethren for reasons only a Muslim might be able to understand. This is why putting an infidel army on the ground in a Muslim country, any Muslim country, to referee these internal disputes is a classic example of embarking on a fools errand.
Rarely says
I suppose it’s easy to forget the religious wars at the time of the Reformation (and long afterwards) where Christians killed Christians for reasons of faith. Fortunately, the various Christian faiths moved past that long ago although the Irish may speculate that it wasn’t so very long ago after all.
gravenimage says
Obviously, it did not take long for Rarely to claim that Christians are as bad as Muslims–or supposedly were, centuries ago. I guess the Crusades will be making an appearance later…
Rarely says
graven.
I did no such thing as claim Christians are as bad as muslims. pennant8 said he/she couldn’t understand muslims killing each other. I was simply pointing out that Christians did it too once but that Christianity had since grown more tolerant.
Religiously and/or racially motivated wars are exceptionally destructive but, historically they have not been restricted to islam. The problem we have today centers around islam and it is a major problem but parts of it are not unique.
gravenimage says
Perhaps I should have written “imply” instead of “claim”–that is more accurate.
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I know of no hegemonic conflict involving Moslems where the Infidel side came out on top. Ever. At least this way, our warriors will be home, available for anything where there is a chance of success.
The good good thing about the Kurds is that they let women into their command and fighter forces. Beyond that, well, they’re… Moslems. So a dose of realism is required with regard to us selling them out.
lebel says
“Beyond that, well, they’re… Moslems. So a dose of realism is required with regard to us selling them out.”
Yup, thanks for the honesty. Very refreshing
gravenimage says
lebel’s pretending that our acknowledging that Kurds are Muslims is damning to us is grotesque–but he has done just that all over this thread.
Angemon says
“Yup, thanks for the honesty. ”
Honesty – now there’s a subject you know nothing about…
carolyne says
IMO we have no business in these foreign adventures. A Muslim is still a Muslim. A snake is still a snake. Personally I don’t care who runs Syria but it was certainly more peaceful before this conflagration in which we took part. Christians were left to worship as they pleased and bombs were not falling, nor were Tomahawk missiles. John McCain not one of the great minds of our time said that he knew the rebels were not terrorists because he had lunch with them and they told him so. When a group of people caused the devastation in New York we invaded Iraq, even though a majority of the culprits were Saudis. I truly believe that on one of the occasions when we invaded Iraq we did so because Saddam had threatened George Herbert Walker Bush so we had to lose our personnel and our fortune to avenge him. The Middle East is a quagmire out of which we will not escape if we do not stop trying to bring democracy where it is neither wanted nor understood. President Trump is right. The fate of the Kurds (not the most peaceful people in the world, not having their own country but trying to grab someone’s else’s) are responsible for their own fate. As are we.
lebel says
“A Muslim is still a Muslim. A snake is still a snake.”
Yes, thanks for your honesty.
Angemon says
“Yes, thanks for your honesty.”
Honesty – now there’s a subject you know nothing about…
lebel says
“This does not mean that free polities can’t or shouldn’t work with some Muslims against other Muslims, but those in free nations should NEVER forget that Islam is not an ally of liberty.”
Yup, use them and throw them away when you no longer need them because in the end, they’re still Muslims.
gravenimage says
As lebel would have it we “threw away” the Soviets by not helping them take over all of eastern Europe, because we briefly had common purpose in defeating the Fascists.
SamB says
There may be reasons for this decision that are not public. But, this will take Trump of the hook. The matter I assume will be decided when he gives\ cancels the F35 contract. This we may know by now is a result of Turkey S-300\400 purchase. The decision to vacate Syria has financial implications for the US so it frees up revenue for the growth of the US economy. Conversely, it hands the security to the enemies of the US. Israel is now left vulnerable, the Christians in Syria and Kurds can now experience greater belligerence from all foes. Islamism is given a timely boost…Erdogan, to the silence of all Western governments, is now an arch enemy of Christians. His aim is to abet Islam’s dominance. If the F35 program is not cancelled then we will know that his Syrian decision is made for profit
the least of terry's says
Bat Man comics and the Bible are totally two differing ‘books’; and if one cannot see the difference, it is because in their self-will they do not want to- there is far too much evidences to support the Old and the New Testaments.
AP says
Trump 2020!!!!
Mark Swan says
President Trump Builds Impressive Record of Accomplishments
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/10/04/mansour-while-democrats-pursue-impeachment-president-trump-builds-impressive-record-of-accomplishments/
Exclusive — Stephen Miller Warns America: ‘Do Not Be a Bystander to History’; the ‘Fate of the Future of the Country’ Is ‘in Your Hands’
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/10/07/stephen-miller-warns-america-do-not-be-bystander-history-fate-future-country-hands/
Theo Prinse says
Even Geert Wilders is against Trumps collaboration with ISIS supporter Erdogan and his ottoman empire dreams and the Turkish purchase of the Russian S-400 which Trump prompted to stop delivery of the F-35 planes is an example of that. Trumps electoral promises to withdraw troops from decades of presence abroad are politically exploited by Erdogan. Not only the kurdish people are betrayed by Trump like the Persian people by Zbigniew Brzezinski but Israel as well regarding Iranian presence in Syria and Lebanon. Trump wants to leave Iraq and Afghanistan as well so that the Taliban and Al Qaeda can flourish again from Afghanistan like ISIS from Syria. Senate Majority leader McConnell, Marco Rubio, Nikki Haley and Lindsey Graham deserve our support against Trumps intention.
gravenimage says
I *hope* Trump is not listening to the slimy Erdogan.
Lorensacho says
Trump’s words “I’m not siding with anybody” must be giving his allies chills. I can only imagine how this doctrine is being processed in Israel. The biggest beneficiary of this isolationist doctrine is Putin.
lebel says
Israel has nothing to worry about. The US will destroy itself to save Israel.
Kurds are just a bunch of f’n Muslims as they recently found out.
CogitoErgoSum says
What are the Turks?
gravenimage says
The idea that allying with civilized, democratic Israel is our ‘destroying ourselves’ is grotesque–but hardly surprising from the sickening lebel.
awake says
If Lindsey Graham is pissed, you know it was the right call.
Infidel says
Precisely!!! These days, Rand Paul is the only one who even looks like making sense
Mark Swan says
Establishment Democrats and Republicans, want to rid themselves
of President Trump—What is really behind the attack on President
Trump, is that he seems to be attacking globalization.
Globalization is what the establishment cares about, American
politicians get a lot of money from global companies. These
companies, manufacture outside the United States deeply oppose
trade barriers, tariffs and other actions that would regulate
their businesses.
Cheap labor in China got companies to heavily invest there.
Most of America’s high tech is produced in China, and most
of America’s critical industrial infrastructure has been shifted
over to China. The moving of industrial infrastructure is
a critical occurrence.
American politicians, need the Global Lobby, its contributions and
job opportunities, when they are out of office.
President Trump is viewed as a threat to that Lobby, they fight him
even though defending the transfer of trade and jobs to China is not
likely to be popular among the average American working voter.
President Trump has, so far, prevailed under attack from the political
elite, who see him as a threat to their personal interest. He still has
support, even under the most hateful media campaign of attacks
ever known. He will probably survive attempts by prosecutors who
seem to be influenced by these politicians and media who are
essentially employed by these powerful Global Lobbyist.
This President needs support and deserves so much better than this.
This country, its people, who will listen, need to know this—the use
of the bully pulpit is needed now—the President must gather and
present these facts directly to the general public—immediately—
strong public opinion can affect politicians, media and lobbyist .
Ernie says
The slaughter of the Kurds by the Turks has begun . Thanks to Trump the megalomaniacal traitor and his bloody administration …… This will not be forgotten , and lessons are being learned , especially this one : Never trust the USA again as a partner ( in arms) , never enter a ” coalition of the willing ” when asked by the USA . Because the USA will throw you under the bus if they don’t have use for you . The USA has no honor , no moral high-ground , no compassion , no decency . When representatives of the USA are talking about HUMAN RIGHTS , we will not listen anymore , because they have proven to be hypocrites . The USA will be MORE HATED and MORE FEARED . I think , the USA will be isolated more and more internationally and can’t really afford isolating itself from the rest of the world . I had a lot of admiration for and hope for The USA . The day before yesterday I had a reality check . Good luck America , you lost a friend today .
lebel says
It’s about bloody time. You’re still a Muslim to them even if you don’t consider yourself one.
Ernie says
Lebel , the betrayal of the Kurds by the USA in northern Syria is an eye opener and a game changer for me . It really pisses me off , and I think I’ve learned a valuable lesson here . But that doesn’t mean I’m now friends with , or cosying up with the enemies of the USA or Western World in general . No way Lebel , no chance here . I admire and love the best of Western civilisation , and I loath/despise its worst . Western civilisation at its best garantees a great amount of individual freedom and the possibilities to develop…..etc . Islam is the exact opposit of Western values , and I hate it… I am no moslim , Lebel , I never was , and I’ll never be . I’ll never be a SLAVE . Islam sucks big time .
Ernie says
Are you an ex-moslim Lebel ? And are you treated with prejudice ?
Ernie says
America , it comes down to this : You have lost not only friends ( having friends in this world is important , you’ll find out ) . And you lost credibility , and that’s something you need in this world to function properly aswell ; you’ll find that out the same way . It’s strange to me there are not many reactions to my little contribution here………………feeling ashamed ,Americans ? Feelings of guilt , shame , remorse , anger ? Or are you just as your POTUS is : only interested in yourself , and to hell with the rest of the world , including your greatest supporters ? How do you think abandoning the Kurds in northern Syria ( as before in northern Iraq ) will be viewed by Israel ? I hope now Israel will support the Kurds where they can ! An alliance between the Kurds and Israel……it makes sense to me .
Rooster says
What a shameful statement “I’m not siding with anyone” made by our President? Sounds like Obama politics but we really know who side Obama was on, Islam all the way. Watch carefully, Trump seems to be turning away from his original campaign promise to “drain the swamp.”
In today’s world you must be on a side. Only fools and Politicians straddle the fence and lean to the one with the most wealth for them to benefit. Trump is sounding more like a politician these days instead of a President with a mission to accomplish.
Pray for peace but be prepared for war, its coming!
Carolyne says
Yes. And I’m on the side of the United States of America and not a bunch of Muslims trying to overthrow a head of state who’s father and he tried to run an Islamic country where other religions were allowed. We have no business fighting there or in any other Islamic country. Their history since Islam’s false inception has had no goal other than kill;Each year other and anyone else with whom they disagree on “Religious” matters. Let them continue to kill each other. Maybe one day they will finish the job.
LR says
It was mostly the Kurds who have been fighting against ISIS, and for their own survival…They also helped rescue the the Yazidis when ISIS tried to wipe all the men out, and enslave all the women. I have great admiration for the Kurds as a whole…They got gassed by Saddam, pissed on by just about everybody around them, but they still fight on – helping to rid the world of the growing ISIS caliphate.
Trumps abandoning the Kurds will bite us in the butt…It’s a very bad, and cruel decision. It doesn’t matter if you think we should be there or not. It’s what the reality on the ground is, and how best to deal with it.
gravenimage says
The Turks just attacked the Kurds today. They didn’t waste any time…
Trouble says
Turkey invades Syria, a sovereign country. Doing what they do best – getting a foot in the door.