My latest in PJ Media:
“I’ve never been one for ‘easy’ travel,” says “vlogger and content creator Eva zu Beck” in an adoring piece in Forbes Friday, and you can say that again: Eva zu Beck, Forbes reports, “thinks Pakistan could be the world’s #1 tourism destination.” And that raises a question: what on earth compelled Forbes to run such a palpably ridiculous and potentially dangerous piece?
Eva zu Beck thinks such concerns are wildly exaggerated, and based on misconceptions. It’s all the media’s fault, you see, but she is understanding about it: “It’s very hard to extract yourself from all the common preconceptions about Pakistan as a person living in the Western world and consuming Western media. After all, the one single image of the country we are given is that of an unsafe, unwelcoming place – which is of course very wrong.”
Of course it is. And so women, says Eva zu Beck, should flock to Pakistan and travel around it alone. What is there to worry about? “There is this idea,” she says, “that traveling solo as a woman in Pakistan is dangerous.” Now how could anyone have gotten that idea? It conflicts with Eva zu Beck’s experience:
But see, on the contrary, I’ve found that whenever I traveled alone, people really went out of their way to help me, make me feel secure and comfortable, without me ever asking for help. I think there is a cultural force at play here: not many women travel solo in Pakistan, so one that does immediately becomes a kind of ‘sister,’ and people are very conscious about making you feel welcome. There is definitely a sense of protectiveness towards women in general here – and while this isn’t necessarily always a good thing, in the specific context of travel it has meant that I’ve always felt safe.
That’s wonderful for Eva zu Beck. But it’s anecdotal evidence, the experience of one person. It is no more illustrative of general tendencies in Pakistan than an uneventful stroll through a bad neighborhood in the United States would be. To balance Eva zu Beck’s experience in Pakistan, consider that of an Australian woman named Lara Hall. Hall went to Pakistan to attend the wedding of her lover’s brother, and ended up trapped there. “Sajjad,” she said of her formerly courteous and caring lover, “raped me and his brother attempted to rape me on multiple occasions. I was a kept woman, I was denied feminine hygiene products and had to bleed freely, I was starved over long periods of time – on one occasion up to 14 hours. I was made to present myself naked after a shower. One time I had a bit of shampoo still in my hair after showering and Sajjad grabbed me, telling me I was an idiot and slammed my head into the basin. I was once made to lay naked in the bed with my legs open. One time I was ill he thought it was ‘hilarious’ – as I was vomiting – to come up and try to rape me while I was hurling. I had come all the way to Pakistan to be a prisoner.”
Again, anecdotal evidence. But general tendencies show that Hall’s experience is more common than Eva zu Beck’s. Last April, the “outdoor travel blog” Atlas & Boots published a list of the “Most dangerous countries in the world 2019 – ranked.” Pakistan came in as the 11th most dangerous country in the world.
Then on May 9, Karachi-based novelist Mohammed Hanif wrote in the Guardian that he had “noticed that I could pick up my newspaper and almost every day find news about a murdered woman.”
There is much more. Read the rest here.
DHazard says
Wrong. Always go with one or two other girlfriends. And remember to bring your magic carpet for the odd emergency.
mortimer says
Yes, bring girlfriends … Muslims love polygamy, and if these women visit Taliban areas in Pakistan, they can become jihadi brides in no time.
Forbes surely now has the ‘most bribed’ travel section. They are not ‘out of their minds’ to suggest Pakistan tourism for single women … they’re just greedy and unethical.
I will read in future with interest of the Western female hostages held in dank caves in the mountains of Northwest Frontier awaiting ransom.
Wishing all you Leftist women the best vacation ever … one final note: Pakistan is the world leader in online pornographic use. Happy trails, ladies.
JohnRich says
The only other wonderful vacation location for single women???? North Africa. Ah the beauty of the place, the loving animals hungry for a meal as well as hungry moslems. Yes North Africa, don’t leave home without your American Express.
Del Rokosh says
Trudeau gave millions to his terrorist supporters in Pakistan.
Meredith says
Weird! Kate Middleton just did her first tv interview about how wonderful her trip to Pakistan was.
rosseuage says
I’ve never heard anybody talk about vacationing in Pakastink and suddenly two women are raving about the dump. I’m with you, it’s weird, too weird to be a coincidence.
Peggy says
Yes, all you have to do is marry an heir to the throne and you will have a wonderful experience. Did she forget to say that?
Keya says
If Pakistan is Forbes number 1 travel destination then they should send their female employees and female relatives and friends there first.
Infidel says
Eva Zu Beck should go there first, and vlog from there. I look forward to her accounts from not just major cities like Lahore or Karachi, but also other places like Quetta, Peshawar, Multan, Faisalabad, Abbottabad (Osama’s last home) and so on
Really Forbes, don’t you screen your contributors?
mortimer says
A superb respons by Keya: “SEND YOUR OWN FEMALE RELATIVES TO PAKISTAN FIRST … UNACCOMPANIED and then get back to us to explain how that went.”
(More ‘do as we say, not as we do’ from Forbes travel section.)
European pagan says
I am a woman who likes travelling but I don’t want to see Pakistan, because of the disgusting pakistani pigs who murder, rape, kidnap and force to convert other people. And I don’t want to wear hijab just because this pigs can’t control themselves when they see the hair of women. I would be afraid
mortimer says
Ah, be a sport, EP. Pakistan is the world leader in online searches for
– ‘horse sex’ since 2004,
– ‘donkey sex’ since 2007, –
– ‘rape pictures’ between 2004 and 2009,
– ‘rape sex’ since 2004, ‘child sex’ between 2004 and 2007 and since 2009,
– ‘animal sex’ since 2004 and
– ‘dog sex’ since 2005, according to Google Trends and Google
What could go wrong?
Peggy says
If only there were pigs there. Things would be much better.
overman says
#1 tourism destination – yes, for pedophiles. lt’s a big attraction for them.
lt might be perfectly safe for the protected classes that William and Kate belong to (l didn’t notice Kate covering her head during last week’s visit). lndia and Pakistan are on the verge of war and two royal idiots pay a visit to Pakistan – it’s a slap in the face for lndia.
Princess Diana was extremely naive about lslam (and mother theresa) when she was dating a pakistani doctor and when she actually wanted to live there.
Dennis Young says
She was with Dodi al Fayed when she died and allegedly was pregnant by him. His father owned Harrods, a famous British store.
Peggy says
Yes, it’s extremely disappointing that they went to Pakistan instead of India. I hold British royals in extreme contempt for their submission to Islam. Princes Diana, especially. It’s not like she didn’t know what Islam is all about. Wasn’t she educated on all things like that? As a princess and a future queen (before the divorce) she must’ve been briefed on Islam.
Martin says
PICS – Pakistan
https://varlamov.ru/476420.html
—————————————————–
Pakistan – Peshawar :
https://varlamov.ru/477188.html
——————————————————
Pakistan – Rawalpindi :
https://varlamov.ru/477717.html
——————————————————
Pakistan – Lahore ( 1 ) :
https://varlamov.ru/478216.html
——————————————————
Pakistan – Lahore ( 2 ) :
https://varlamov.ru/478606.html
——————————————————-
Pakistan – Karachi :
https://varlamov.ru/478997.html
——————————————————–
Pakistan – Eid al Adha :
https://varlamov.ru/476833.html
——————————————————-
gravenimage says
What Were They Thinking? Forbes Encourages Women to Travel Solo to Pakistan
……………………
The sad thing is that I do know how this happened. I have worked as an editor and mapmaker for several travel book companies. Sure, there is always a market for seeing the Grand Canyon and the Eiffel Tower–but these companies also want to feature things that are “new”, off the beaten path, and–best of all if they can manage it–the “next big thing”, Think trips to Provence or to Tuscany beginning in the 1980s–places that had always gotten a few visitors, certainly, but were not known as big destinations until that point.
This is all well and good–but safety is another matter. I have seen guidebooks that suggest strolling through Detroit or dodgy parts of Brooklyn at night, and sections on rafting in hiking books that fail to mention the grade of the river–which is just insane. One managing editor compromised with me when I suggested that taking a tour of the West Oakland Blues and Jazz trail at night for the authentic ambience might be a bad idea by adding the line, “as in any large city, exercise caution while walking at night”. West Oakland, particularly at that time, was a dangerous slum.
But this is *far worse*–not just suggesting that Western Infidels go to Pakistan–unwise in any case–but that female solo travelers do so. Forbes found one very lucky, enthusiastic idiot who had managed to do this unscathed, and this was good enough for them.
Infidel says
When they write these guides, what exactly are their target customers? Like yours were Americans who’re traveling from other cities to places like Detroit or Oakland, probably on a budget, while others may be suggesting people w/ no budget, but only interested in seeing the most interesting places.
I just don’t see how Pakistan falls under either category, unless somebody’s hobby is jihad, or, if one is a non-Muslim, one is a trigger happy sniper who wants to get in on the action. It’s nowhere near where most people would normally go, doesn’t have any exotic beauties like, say, Tahiti, and on the downside, as you point out, safety is a major issue. I would understand if a travel agent was being paid by a well financed tourist ministry of, say, a Gulf country and encouraged one to go to the Emirates or Oman or Bahrein or even Saudi Arabia. But it beats me what’s in it for a trip to Pakistan.
Also, even if one was interested in historic Muslim places, Pakistan doesn’t have many, compared to the Middle East, Iran, Afghanistan and Uzbekistan.
gravenimage says
The target audience was Americans visiting from various parts of the country as well as international travelers. One publishing company mostly targeted young people, the others were more general. And I don’t want to give the impression that these books were full of dangerous and reckless suggestions–they weren’t. But questionable recommendations popped up fairly frequently. There was not a lot of cross-checking, either.
Of course, urging solo females to go to Pakistan is off-the-charts insane–much worse than anything I saw. But I did work on series–not the specific books–that suggested trips to places like Egypt and Turkey, which can be pretty dodgy, as well. And one offered a guided tour to the Silk Road–which sounds intriguing, until you realize how many Islamic crap holes this goes through.
Infidel says
Silk Road – what part of that road is safe at all (talking about the land routes, not sea routes)? Starts in Communist China, goes thru Xinxiang, Uzbekistan (which is a hotbed of Islamic activity despite having a secular dictatorship), Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey… Only one I can think of is outer Mongolia, when they added Karakorum to the route
gravenimage says
True, Infidel–none of this route is safe.
tim gallagher says
gravenimage, could “Forbes” be sued for a huge amount of money by the family of any woman unfortunate enough to take this idiotic travel writer’s advice (she probably just got lucky in being treated well in Pakistan) but who ends up being murdered? I’m not sure if there is any legal responsibility for giving out such reckless advice. I think there should be. If the magazine faced a big financial loss they’d probably be more careful about giving such irresponsible advice. Pakistan seems like an appalling country and I always think of the lovely treatment that Asia Bibi received there. This article by this travel writer seems to be totally irresponsible.
gravenimage says
Hi, Tim–I doubt it. Please note, I am *not* a lawyer, but most guidebooks have disclaimers. Of course, this is usually for minor matters, like not using a ten-year-old guidebook and expecting every cafe and gallery to be the same. I think it is implicitly the same with travel articles.
Also, somethings can be subjective–as when one traveller goes to a restaurant or hotel, and loves it, and other just hates it. Just look at your average Yelp page–is that jackfruit taco intriguingly eclectic and inventive, or just gross?
But of course this is much different–Pakistan is a place that can easily get you killed. And Forbes is huge, and widely trusted. That they are giving out such frankly reckless advice is deeply disturbing. I’m not sure you could sue them, though.
mortimer says
GI, thanks for your informed analysis of this nutty article.
gravenimage says
Thanks, Mortimer. I am not giving Forbes a pass, though.
J D S p says
With today’s knowledgebase. This article shoes there are plenty of stupid people to go round.
tgusa says
The question became unanswerable as soon as the word Thinking was included.
eduardo odraude says
What were they thinking? Possibly the editors involved knew approximately zilch about Pakistan or Islam, except that Forbes would seem oh so hip and fashionable in making an anti-Islamophobic gesture by encouraging lone women to go travel around Pakistan. Forbes was apparently virtue-signaling, showing how unprejudiced Forbes is against Muslims. Who cares if the price of that virtue signalling is periodic murders or rapes of women traveling to Pakistan on Forbes’ advice? A few murders is a small price to pay in order to show how un-Islamophobic Forbes is, thus how hip, moral, and sophisticated Forbes is.
mortimer says
To EO … too true. ‘Virtue-signalling’ seems to sum this up.
Lotus says
There is another aspect to this, which is travel insurance.
If a country’s government advises against travel to a certain country or region, a standard travel insurance policy may not be valid. Specialist travel insurance will be required, which will obviously be more expensive.
So before travelling it is essential to check government travel advisory websites.
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/pakistan
mortimer says
Thanks, for the advisory, Lotus. I read it and understand the UK Foreign Office suggests most areas in Pakistan are not safe for UK citizens and they should avoid them unless absolutely necessary. So much for ‘unnecessary’ tourism in Pakistan!
(The Foreign Office must be killjoys!)
Lotus says
It’s odd, because on the one hand the UK Foreign Office say most visits are trouble-free.
On the other hand, there are hair-raising quotes like the following. After reading them, would anyone in their right mind want to go there? I know I wouldn’t. It sounds more like a war zone than a holiday destination.
By the way, does anyone know what is ‘un-Islamic’ about a barber shop? (Last quote).
// Terrorists are very likely to try to carry out attacks in Pakistan. There’s a high threat of terrorism, kidnap and sectarian violence throughout the country, including the major cities of Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Lahore and Karachi. Foreigners, in particular westerners, may be directly targeted. //
// The Pakistan authorities currently advise that “all foreigners, including diplomats may not move out of their city of residence without proper security and without prior co-ordination with the law enforcement agency”. //
// When travelling in Pakistan, you or your travel company should contact the local authorities of your destination in advance to check the local security situation. They may arrange police protection as necessary. //
// Karachi has seen an improvement in the overall security situation in recent years. However, the city is still prone to high levels of violence, and the safety of daily activity can be unpredictable. It is vulnerable to violent ethnic conflict between different communities. Criminal and political violence is also common including armed carjacking, robbery, kidnap and murder. //
// There’s a high threat of terrorism and sectarian violence throughout the country. The main terrorist threat comes from Tehrik-e Taleban Pakistan (TTP), an umbrella organisation of groups primarily based in the former Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). Daesh is also active. //
// Further attacks could be indiscriminate, including in places visited by foreigners. Previous methods of attack have included grenades, shootings, bombings and suicide bombs. Militants can launch complex and deadly attacks. Be vigilant, keep a low profile and vary your routes and timings if you make any regular journeys. //
// Foreigners, in particular westerners, may be directly targeted. Densely populated and unsecured areas, such as markets, shopping malls, hotels, restaurants, airports, public transport, schools and educational institutions are potential focal points for attacks.
Additionally, take care if you’re planning to attend sporting events or live music venues. Attacks have previously targeted places that could be considered by militants to be un-Islamic, including CD/DVD shops and barber shops. //
eduardo odraude says
For whatever it’s worth, according to Wikipedia a couple of million tourists visited Pakistan in 2018. The largest numbers came from the UK, followed by the US, India, and China. So apparently, the odds of getting killed, injured, or kidnapped are fairly low. Of the two million, I wonder how many were lone females. Very few, I would think. The young travel writer woman who traveled all over Pakistan, loved it, and found the people there warmly welcoming and friendly, advises dressing according to the local cultures. One thing she does not say anything about is how she would fare in Pakistan if she were blond. She is a brunette and thus doesn’t stand out from native Pakistanis, as one picture accompanying the article shows. In the picture in question, the Pakistanis look like they could be her relatives. I imagine blonds might be at greater risk for various reasons and would have to be a good deal more careful about wearing head scarfs to cover up their hair.
So the frightening warnings of the UK foreign office apparently need to be seen in that context. The UK is telling its citizens that while it’s usually fairly safe there, one should not act like one is in one’s own country or be provocative, and that there are risks one will become a victim of jihadists, even if the risks are currently fairly small. The UK government obviously would then have a huge headache trying to save people from trouble and deal with an international incident.
Reading the Forbes article was eye-opening for this Jihad Watcher — my impression of Pakistan shifted a bit for the better. We know that there are horrible human rights abuses in Pakistan because of Islam and that religious minorities there can and do suffer monstrous persecution. At the same time, the Forbes article provides an interesting small window on another aspect of Pakistan.
gravenimage says
eduardo odraude wrote:
For whatever it’s worth, according to Wikipedia a couple of million tourists visited Pakistan in 2018. The largest numbers came from the UK, followed by the US, India, and China.
………………..
Eduardo, I think most of those “tourists” are actually Muslims visiting relatives back in the old country–not civilized Infidels looking for an exotic spot to explore.
Lotus says
A few choice extracts from the Pakistan ‘Local Laws and Customs’ section, for your delectation.
// Avoid eating, drinking or smoking in public during daylight hours during Ramazan (Ramadan). There may also be a higher risk of terrorist incidents during this month.
Homosexuality is illegal. See our information and advice page for the LGBT community before you travel.
Importing alcohol and pork products is illegal.
Cohabitation by an unmarried couple is illegal.
The death penalty can and has been imposed for crimes including blasphemy, murder, drug offences, rape and unlawful assembly. //
Why more terrorist attacks during Ramadan? Can’t they take a pious break?
So I guess I can’t bring in my bacon sandwiches. 🙁
Blasphemy means anything critical said about Islam. That’s Jihad Watch 101. 🙂
And what is an ‘unlawful assembly’? Anything the authorities want it to be, I suppose.
Man, I’m glad I’m not going there.
Carol the 1st says
If all that doesn’t turn you off, then there’s this:
“Everything is very bad with food in Pakistan – local Indians do not spare peppers and spices, therefore it is impossible for a normal person to eat this food.”
Infidel says
Even better, if you’re traveling to another country, read up about that country a bit before you plan to go there. If you read that there is an ongoing civil war but still wanna go, you might be better prepared, like arming yourself like a militia before going
Seriously, out of 190 countries in the world, Pakistan is the country they picked for that adventure?
FYI says
I see the pakistani govt [salaam aleikum to the muslim spys,shills and trolls!}under imran khan are desperately trying to shut down david wood on You tube{acts17apologetics}
Embarrassing facts about muhamed
{part 2}
1)Muhammed stoned women to death for adultery,a sin he happily indulged in himself
despite being married to aisha{he was caught in the act}
The woman was Mary the Copt,a slave girl
Sunan an-nasa’i #3411
2}Did i mention that Ubaydullah said muhammed was a FAT DWARF{Abu dawud 40.4731} and muhammed was also a cross dresser{Sahih bukhari 54:7:2442}?
3}muhammed liked to suck the tongue of his grandson Hasan
{something pedophiles do}
musnad ahmad 16245
Al adab al mufrad 1183
{“the prophet put his tongue in hasan’s mouth”
4}muhammed owned,bought and sold BLACK AFRICAN SLAVES
muhammed was the WHITEST man that ever lived{islamic sources insist on his whiteness being emphasised}
sahih muslim 3901
5}This one especially is for imran khan and his pakistanis..enjoy!
muhammed’s underpants were holy and had miraculous healing powers:it was a muslimas great honor to wash them.
“Aisha came back to Asma and she told her ‘this is the underpants of the prophet{pbuh}
we do wash it so the sick ones can be recovered by it’..”
Sahih Muslim{the Book of clothes} pg1641 hadith#2069
6}No,I won’t mention muhammed’s WINGED FLYING FANTASY HORSEY WITH A WOMAN’S FACE AND A PEACOCK TAIL called buraq which he used to fly around in up in the clouds and went from mecca to Jerusalem on as that just wouldn’t be fair:muhammed and his FLYING HORSEY are the WEAKEST link in islam
No wonder khan and his pakistani govt are so desperate to HIDE such information,especially from fellow muslims.
Angemon says
“The woman was Mary the Copt,a slave girl ”
Permissible per 4:24.
FYI says
Yes indeed.
Along with Murder k2:191,Stealing from infidels k48:20,lying to promote islam k3:28,polygamy k4:3,child brides k65;5 etc.
islam is an immoral Arab creed that pretends to be moral.
The pakistani govt seems to be working hard to silence anything critical of islam{even when the information comes from islamic sources!!}:they target Ex-muslims too on Social Media.They forget that this is the age of the internet and such awkward facts about islam and muhammed cannot be hidden permanently.
It is a matter of control and exercising power over people by using religion:they lose that power when muslims can see how bogus islam and its prophet and its holy book really are.
Give muslims back their OWN teachings and they can’t handle the Truth!
So they think that by banning such info on social media that will work to maintain their power over others.
eduardo odraude says
Yes, Muhammad sleeping with his slave Mary the Copt did not constitute adultery in Islamic terms.
gravenimage says
There is no real morality in Islam.
Carol the 1st says
The clamp down was likely precipitated by a Boom Boom Room gem called Muhammad Meets the Joker. David’s portrayal of the Joker is Oscar-worthy and Moe gets toasted over and over again with no holds barred.
TLC says
Sounds like a Darwinian Thinning of the Herd. Only a very stupid woman would think Pakistan is a vacation/tourism destination….kinda like CartelOwned Mexico the past couple of years.
Giacomo Latta says
Forbes (October): ”thinks Pakistan could be the world’s #1 tourism destination”
Forbes (November): ”no, no, that other place that rhymes with Pakistan … yes, Canuckistan”
Ed says
October 18th must have been “modern slavery day” on Jihad Watch.
Reading this one on Eva Zweibak (sic) sending unattached women to Pakistan conjured ideas of her being a useful idiot and agent for sweaty Muslim men interested in obtaining White Western sex slave women. Would be interesting to follow that money.
Then again, maybe Zu Beck isn’t that naive and the whole topic could be turned into a steamy pulp fiction paperback, possibly with “B” grade movie rights. GI, you interested in co-authoring?
gravenimage says
Thanks, Ed–but I very much doubt that Zu Beck is evil, or is working for Muslim sex slavers.
She is extremely naive, and has just been very lucky on her visits to Pakistan, and figures that everyone else will be, as well.
She’s a wilderness traveller, and has eaten insects in Mexico, visited monasteries in Armenia, gone hiking through the Bavarian Alps, and has ridden horses through Mongolia. I imagine she knows nothing of substance about Islam at all.
She also considers taking a four-day train trip across the US just booking a single seat to be a “survival challenge”, when it could never be anything worse than mildly uncomfortable (not to mention she could have gotten off the train at any stop).
Recently she visited Aleppo in Syria, which is probably even more insane than going to Pakistan…
Here’s her Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/evazubeck/
Walter Sieruk says
Forbes is very irresponsible to encourage women to travel to Pakistan
As for the Islamic world of female sex slaves, both girls and women, this brutal and callous affront, against all the is decent, good and right, started very early in the history of Islam with founder and prophet of Islam, Muhammad. As revealed in the book THE HISTORY OF JIHAD FROM MUHAMMAD TO ISIS by Robert Spencer. For after one of the early war victories of the followers of that specific time, the new religion of Islam, Muhammad received convenient revelation that his Muslim warriors have every right to own and use their female war captives. As page 32 of Mr. Spencer’s book reads “The Qur’an permitted them to have sexual intercourse with slaves girls captured in battle- ‘those captives whom your right hand possess.’ [4:24]” This book further explains and exposes on the exact same page that “The enslavement and rape women were taken for granted.” This Islamic wickedness of misogyny continued and still continues through time. As other scholars and authors on Islam do further expose that this horrific treatment of women into sexual slavery by their own families. Women are not viewed and equals in Islamic countries, they are thought of as property” and the “selling women and girls for prostitution is just the dehumanizing complement to forcing women and girls to cover their bodies and hair with veil.” [1] Likewise, a former Muslim who is now a Christian also revealed information about Islam and females sex slaves. For is exposed that “Slavery is cherished in the Qu ‘ran and non -Muslim girls and women are used a sex slaves. Also there is no protection for women in Islam; they are exposed to every kind of abuse on one hand, but on the other hand they are responsible for the temptation which afflicts men.” [2] Wow, all this cruel Islamic misogyny and not regard for human rights has its origin in the founder prophet of Islam, Muhammad. As shown by two Christian writers who in their book inform the reader that “Muhammad endorsed enslavement of all types…he endorsed sex –slavery as a gift from Allah, and enjoyed offering sex slaves as gifts…” So since Muhammad is view by Muslim as the perfect man and a great example it’s not surprise that, in time, Islam is enslaved more people than any other culture.” [3]
[1] THEY MUST BE STOPPED by Brigitte Gabriel, pages 181,182.
[2] ISLAM AND THE SON OF GOD by Daniel Shayesteh , page 128
[3] JESUS AND THE JIHADIS by Craig A. Evens and Jeremiah J. Johnston, pages 124, 125