This is yet another act of war. How can anyone seriously think that these “refugees,” fresh from throwing Molotov cocktails at Greek police, will pass peacefully into Europe and become loyal citizens of secular states?
In the face of this invasion, however, we have the usual complacency and Leftist idiocy: “Greece has announced that it would not accept any asylum applications for one month. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees criticized their decision.”
“Greece: Migrants attack border police with firebombs, Turkish police help,” by Michael Lord, Voice of Europe, March 12, 2020:
The clashes between migrants and the Greek police, which have been occurring frequently since Turkey began allowing migrants to cross its territory at the end of February, reached a new intensity on Wednesday.
Migrants again attacked Greek officers during the night, but this time used incendiary Molotov cocktails, which set fire to the border fence in the Evros region, according to a report by Remix News.
Local media reports indicate that the migrants’ attacks were being supported by the Turkish security forces, and that in addition to using firebombs, the migrants employed tear gas which they had obtained from the Turks. They used this in an attempt to distract law enforcement while they pulled down the fence. Greek forces responded with tear gas of their own.
The Evros River has become the flashpoint in this latest migrant crisis. On Monday, Bulgaria opened one of its dams to raise the Evros River’s water level in an attempt to make it more difficult for migrants to cross, as reported by Voice of Europe.
Greece has reported that 348 migrants have been arrested since the latest crisis began, and that its police have prevented over 44,000 others from illegally entering the European Union’s Schengen Zone. Several other countries, including Austria and Poland, have sent their own officers to reinforce the Greek border force….
More recently, Erdogan has also demanded visa-free travel for Turkish citizens from the EU in exchange for stopping the migrants.
Greece has announced that it would not accept any asylum applications for one month. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees criticized their decision.
Waldman says
How can Turkey still remain a member of NATO?
SKA says
Bully for Bulgaria!
mortimer says
Yes. Bulgaria is right. Turkey is betraying its NATO allies. Turkey is committing acts of war.
jiminheaven says
I agree. If this is not a provocation for war I don’t know what is!
Wellington says
I agree this is an act of war and thus Greek soldiers should shoot to kill. In fact, it may very well be in the interest of other Balkan nations to aid Greece here, including sending their own soldiers to ally with the Greek military. Erdogan is an extremely bad man and no appeasement of him should occur.
Frank Anderson says
Wellington, please check me on this? I searched the term illegal/unlawful combatant. It appears that some genius threw in a term in a Geneva convention requiring arrest and prosecution instead of summary disposal of people who in the past had no such protections. We have seen many times in history and during our lives that treaties can be withdrawn. I think withdrawing from this treaty and reverting to the former treatment of “enemies of all mankind” should be considered. What do you think?
Wellington says
Thanks for your question, Frank. Here is my answer: The Geneva Convention only works among those nations that observe at least a modicum of civilized behavior.
And here I am reminded (once again) of what a veteran of WWII, whom I spoke to at my aunt’s funeral back in the 1980’s, said to me. He served in both theaters of the war—the European Theater and the Pacific Theater–and while talking to him he told me something I will never forget and it is this: Even the Nazis, said he, wouldn’t blow up Red Cross ships but the Japanese would. Pretty damn terrible when you have to put the word “even” before the word “Nazis.”
As horrible as Nazi Germany was, there were still many who fought for it who retained some traces of decency, especially much of the officer corps (e.g., Rommel) who possessed elements of traditional Western “fair play” which the Japanese almost in their entirety were completely ignorant of—divine race rot and all that crap.
There were also also Nazi diplomats in China who saved Chinese during the Japanese “Rape of Nanking.” Again, pretty awful when Nazis in any way are coming off as the good guys.
Well, Nazism certainly corrupted Germany but at least Germany had some kind of Western tradition which mitigated at times the worst heinous aspects of Nazi ideology (though clearly, to put it mildly, not enough), but there was nothing in the Japanese mindset of old nor the Islamic mindset to this day which has any mitigating effect that I have been able to detect.
The Geneva Convention? An anachronism which long ago outlived its usefulness whenever one leaves the orb of Western Civilization—and even sundry times when one is still within the orb of the best of the Western tradition, with no better example of the latter here than the barbarism which was Nazi Germany.
Mankind is a mess and the Geneva Convention, though well intentioned, is simply not nearly enough to protect against the monstrosity which is the Islamic faith—and PRECISELY because Islam has nothing really Western about it.
Sorry for the long post but your question was a very fine one and my blood was up. Hence the long response which I hope you’ll forgive me for.
Frank Anderson says
Wellington, I am not known for many short comments.
Remember the German Werewolves after WWII who continued killing for about a year. Check on the measures required to deal with them.
I am worn out with the proposition that the fight against terror should be conducted in courtrooms instead of the battlefield. I have spent MUCH time in courtrooms for a variety of reasons and cases. It looks to me like the Geneva Convention requirements were included to provide lucrative employment for trainloads of lawyers and judges instead of protecting the societies who pay for them.
Wellington says
Well, Frank, I can’t detect where we disagree here. I was just trying to set things in a Western perspective, deficient though it it, versus a world perspective, which is even more deficient and dealt with in the aggregate.
Mankind is woeful but Western Civilization and its accomplishments, even with all its negatives, is, a la Lincoln, the last best hope of mankind. This is all I was trying to relate.
Frank Anderson says
Wellington, I don’t think we have any disagreement. I am pointing to examples of Nazi war crimes that continued after the surrender with illegal combat that had to be dealt with by summary military proceedings instead of “standard” criminal prosecutions. SS formations all during the war shot US and British POW’s. Many were prosecuted for war crimes after the war. But the Werewolves did not get the elaborate and expensive treatment afforded to war criminals. Frank
James Lincoln says
Frank and Wellington, good exchange…
gravenimage says
Yes–very interesting exchange.
SKA says
Even John Locke agreed with the Roman proposition that “the security of the State is the ultimate law.”
Frank Anderson says
SKA, I quote frequently the First Mitzvah from Maimonides, “All rules bend as necessary for the preservation of life.” I think included in that guidance, is the right AND DUTY to preserve freedom and liberty. Remember the TWO lessons taught in The Exodus: 1) No matter how well things start; they change, 2) God does not wan His Children (ALL who call upon Him as Father) to live in any form of tyranny or slavery.
Savvy Kafir says
Agreed! This is an act of war, and these savages should be met with machinegun fire. They are coming to destroy European societies, and rape and murder infidels in the process. It’s time for European governments to acknowledge this, and respond accordingly.
James Lincoln says
Savvy Kafir,
Live ammo should be preceded by warning shots – and a portable PA system with a “last chance” warning that they would understand.
If the enemy then does not comply, I agree – switch to live ammo…
Frank Anderson says
James, I have had to deal most of my life for a variety of reasons real live threats that called for immediate self-defense measures. Warning shots give time to an attacker to shoot back. They also display indecision that invites the attack to continue. Further, they give away the position of the person wasting the shot. Finally the ammunition and more importantly the opportunity to stop the attack is wasted.
As I recall, the first semester in the Fall of 1977 at a nationally accredited law school I was studying criminal law. One of the cases dated from the earliest times in English Common Law. An archer shot and killed a man who had the equivalent of a Molotov cocktail lit and ready to throw on the wooden fortification, called a “keep”. The court ruled and recorded for future cases that the archer did not have to wait until the bomb was thrown and the structure was burning. A warning shot was not required. I have been trying for months to find the casebook being used in 1977 or any other way to find the cite of the case, without success.
The bottom line is that a person staging a potentially deadly attack is deemed to know the risks he takes. The person acting in self-defense or defense of third persons does not have to wait until injury is sustained, under generally accepted Common Law. That has been overruled in countries which now make self-defense a criminal act, but not the US.
“Please consult a currently licensed attorney practicing in your jurisdiction for any legal advice.”
James Lincoln says
Frank,
A compelling argument, I will rethink my position.
Frank Anderson says
James, while I cannot yet find this exact case, this IS the law in the state where I live and many others. “You snooze; You lose!” Always best wishes to you. Frank
saturnine says
A terse warning like this is fair.
https://youtu.be/Hzlt7IbTp6M?t=115
jiminheaven says
This is an age-old struggle which has been happening for about 1500 years beginning with the Byzantine Empire. The only difference this time is that the Turks are sending proxy Bantu’s & Punjabi’s.
Jim says
Turkey should be expelled from NATO for this act of aggression, and their application to join the EU should be rejected. All nations should enact strong sanctions against Turkey.
jiminheaven says
It’s been coming for awhile now. Their military purchases from non-NATO countries should have been enough.
Carol the 1st says
Erodogan’s meeting with Merkel and Macron on March 17 is an unlikely cause for optimism.
Thomas Ardoline says
The second act of war from Turkey. Where is NATO? Fight Greece, fight!
Ray Jarman says
This statement, “Greece has announced that it would not accept any asylum applications for one month. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees criticized their decision.” is enough to justify every free nation to withdraw from this odious organization that turns upside down the word “United.” I pray that the United States will sooner than later secede from the UN and since America pays the bulk of the obligatory annual fees, the organization could possibly move the headquarters to maybe Greenland where the cost of operations would be far less as there is no Neiman Marcus, Macy’s or fine Jewish jewelers on the island and the people of New York would find a lot more parking spaces.
James Lincoln says
Ray,
I was with you up until the time that you mentioned Greenland as a new UN base of operations.
Greenland is still unspoiled and the last real frontier.
Recommend a floating iceberg in Antarctica…
Ray Jarman says
I stand corrected.
Phil Copson says
Has the Greek economy been deliberately sabotaged by the EU precisely so that it cannot defend itself from a Turkish-led invasion ?
As veteran Italian commentator Giulio Meotti stated some years ago; “Merkel is the architect of the downfall of European civilisation.” and a weakened and impoverished Greece rendered unable to hold the gates of Europe closed against the Turks, suits the purposes of the Marxists very well.
Henry Mansfield says
Made a business trip to Bulgaria just North of Greece after the fall of the Soviet Union and it’s satellite states.
Memory of the Ottoman occupation was still a festering sore, so I can only imagine what the average Greek must be saying.
ntesdorf says
Islam has made a Hell of their own countries and now they want to leave and bring the pestilence to Europe.
Wellington says
You have summarized matters quite well. More succinctly accurate it would be deuce difficult to be.
jewdog says
Just like the Gaza border with Israel. They’re attacking for their right of return – to Greece, a country which the Ottomans ruled for over 300 years until they were kicked out. I can’t imagine why.
mortimer says
Turkey’s leaders are pushing things to the breaking point. British and American troops are stationed in Turkey. Diplomats have their work cut out.
somehistory says
One wonders why the Greeks do not treat these hordes trying to force their way in as an opposing army? Would they not treat an army of soldiers as invaders and do everything to repel them? These invading moslims may not be wearing uniforms, boots and helmets, but they are using weapons and forcing their way into the country. And their “officers” are those who belong to the army of turkey, their commanders are er dog wan and others who are giving them license to invade a neighboring country, their weapons supplied by the turks.
Why arrest them as though they are citizens just breaking laws? They should be viewed as members of the turkish army…invading with the goal of taking over Greece for their own.
Frank Anderson says
S.H. Please join Wellington and me in thinking about my question: Search illegal/unlawful combatant. Take a look at the Geneva Convention addressing the treatment of such. Think about the treatment of non-uniformed combatants, not only in WWII, but before the treaty requiring “due process”. I have contended that the model of piracy should serve to measure the treatment of illegal combatants, a terrorist or other illegal being an “enemy of all mankind”, defying all law and respect for civilized order, and deserving the same treatment. What do you think after looking at this information?
somehistory says
Frank Anderson,
Based on what I have had time and energy to read regarding such, I believe that even if a person is not “dressed to kill,” that may be the intent. The moslims who are attempting…with force and weapons and numbers…to invade Greece are putting themselves in a position of an invading army.
I found this site’s information very informative and interesting:
https://www.bsdgb.co.uk/index.php?Information:Law_Relating_to_Self_Defence
A couple of quotes pertinent to this situation…imo, anyway.
“In Palmer [1971] AC 814 (Privy Council) Lord Morris said:
“If there has been an attack so that the defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his necessary defensive action. If a jury thought that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought was necessary that would be most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken.”
“Does a trained person need to warn an attacker before taking steps to defend himself?
There is a common misconception that a person who has received training in combat skills is under a duty to warn his attacker of this expertise prior to him taking any physical steps to defend himself. This is not the case. Such a person is treated the same as an untrained person although it is open to a jury to find that because of his training his actions were not reasonable. ”
“The wider meaning of “self defence”.
If ever there was any doubt as to the authority for using self defence, the words of Lord Parker CJ in Chisam (1963) 47 Cr App Rep 130 are helpful. His Lordship said:
“…. where a forcible and violent felony is attempted upon the person of another, the party assaulted, or his servant, or any other person present, is entitled to repel force by force, and, if necessary, to kill the aggressor ….”.
Greece is under attack. It seems that the laws about self-defense should apply to nations as well as to individuals. Must war be declared first? Must the attacker tell the victim all of his intended actions, all of his plans and goals before it is acceptable for the victim to make a defense against what he sees is about to take place, or is even in the process of happening?
“A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.”
In my view, these hordes are “unlawfully at large.” As are the turks who are assisting.
Thank you for asking my opinion. I appreciate being included in the discussion. Law is a very complicated and many times misunderstood, misapplied, concept.
Frank Anderson says
S.H. both of us have seen enough to understand we don’t know it all. We may see something or make a connection the other might miss.
Self defense is a core issue of my adult life. For many reasons I have had to be prepared. And that was before and after law school. Your analysis is helpful to anyone who wishes to think through the rights and obligations of the issue. When can I act and when should I NOT act in my own defense.
You never know when the truth of the proverb that appears in many settings will be shown true: “A two-fold cord is strong; but a three-fold cord is not easily broken.”
How many times have we seen in the last few weeks how “unarmed” mobs have beaten and injured, or even killed people in the US? Knowing what islam has taught and practiced for 1400 years, the invaders are not coming to join as loyal and productive citizens: They are coming as conquerors to raid, rob, pillage and kill.
Whatever treaties claim to limit as methods and means of national defense should be removed by the sovereign authority. NO treaty can require a nation to permit itself to be destroyed.
Patrick Kelley says
Erdogan is the new Caliphate Leader in Islam, looking to establish himself as significant Muslim. One man is sure screwing Europe, and everyone in Europe.☠️?☠️?
John Dietrich says
Geneva Convention? German POWs were not covered by it. War Crimes? American fighter pilots were ordered to fire on columns of fleeing women and children. A movie was made about the Lidice atrocity. Nobody knows about the Horni Mostenice massacre. You only know about what happened from what you have been told.
Jeremiah says
Look at it this way . . .this is 1900 all over again. The Greeks have a chance to settle scores. Do it right this time. Remember the massacres.
OLD GUY says
The greek government needs to defend its borders and should be backed up by NATO to stop the invasion.