More dialogue follies. I explain why this is so foolish and wrongheaded below.
“Vatican Urges Catholics to Share Ramadan,” by Jules Gomes, ChurchMilitant.com, May 2, 2020:
VATICAN CITY (ChurchMilitant.com) – The Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue is encouraging Christians to join in the Islamic iftar ‘ritual’ meal on the occasion of the Muslim festival of Ramadan.
In a Ramadan greeting to “Muslim brothers and sisters” Friday, the Vatican dicastery called upon Christians and Muslims to “protect together” mosques and churches and quoted the prophet Isaiah 56:7 affirming that “a place of worship of any religion therefore is ‘a house of prayer.'”
For us, your Christian friends, it is a propitious time to further strengthen our relationships with you, by greeting you, meeting you on this occasion and, where possible, by sharing in an Iftar with you,” the statement read.
Speaking to Church Militant, world-renowned Islamic scholar Robert Spencer said he was disturbed by the Vatican’s “assumptions that arise from Vatican II declarations about Muslims together with us adoring the God of Abraham.”
“By participating in iftars, Christians are helping celebrate an imperative to conquer and subjugate them,” he noted. “Iftar is not just a meal. It is the breaking of the Ramadan fast every evening. Ramadan is a month devoted to intensifying one’s observance of Islam and growing more righteous.”
“In Islam, the most righteous deed of all is jihad, which most prominently involves warfare against and the subjugation of non-Muslims. A hadith has a Muslim asking Muhammad: ‘Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward).’ Muhammad replied, ‘I do not find such a deed’ (Bukhari 4.52.44),” Spencer explained.
Author of the bestselling The History of Jihad: From Muhammad to ISIS, the historian told Church Militant he was also shocked by the Vatican drawing a parallel “between the destruction of churches and mosques in this age or any age.”
“Such equivalence demonstrates historical illiteracy as throughout history thousands, if not tens of thousands, of churches have been turned into mosques in order to demonstrate the superiority of Islam over Christianity, and the victory of Muslims over Christians,” Spencer observed.
He continued:
The foremost example of this is the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul. Also the Umayyad Mosque, formerly the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Damascus. The mosque of Cordoba might seem to be an equivalent example of a mosque that was converted into a church, but it is just a single example against a mountain of examples on the Islamic side. Islam explicitly proclaims that it is the true embodiment of Christ’s teachings, and that Christianity is illegitimate. This has worked out for 1,400 years in the destruction or conversion of churches….
In its Ramadan statement, the Vatican recalled Pope Francis’ words on a visit to the Heydar Aliyev Mosque, in Baku (Azerbaijan) in 2016: “Meeting one another in fraternal friendship in this place of prayer is a powerful sign, one that shows the harmony which religions can build together, based on personal relations and on the good will of those responsible.”
But Spencer slammed the pontiff’s words as “ignoring, as do all modern Church statements about Islam, that religion’s deeply embedded doctrines that completely delegitimize Christianity and call for warfare against Christians and those of other faiths, with mosques as the base of operations (qaeda).”
“This is why we have seen weapons stockpiled in so many mosques around the world,” Spencer added, pointing out that the pope “would do well to consider who exactly is being worshiped in mosques, when Muslims have so very often, in so many countries, come out of Friday prayers and violently attacked non-Muslims.
“But as always, such incidents, of which there are very many, are completely ignored in Rome,” he lamented….
Frank Anderson says
Voluntary participation by a non-muslim, who is considered a kafir (one who is worthy only of death or slavery by muslims) in a muslim activity fits my understanding of suicidal. The profound difference between suicide and murder is who is making the decision. You can “aid, abet, counsel”, inspire or encourage my suicide; but only I can commit it.
This edict directs Christians to voluntarily submit to their societal destruction and eventual murder or slavery. Those who volunteer are choosing their own demise. That is suicide by an organization that prohibits suicide and even punishes it upon those who remain after death. I repeat, I have many Catholic friends who have been with me and helpful in big ways all my life.
mortimer says
Yes … the pope’s message is ‘suicidal’. Muslims are told 14 times in the Koran not to be the friend or ‘comrade’ of Jew or a Christian.
Doesn’t the pope know that? Why not?
Frank Anderson says
mortimer, the message promotes suicidal conduct of those who listen.
P Rossman says
My reply to you may be harsh, and for that I am sorry: this pope isn’t even an Anti-Pope, he is more like an Anti-Christ. I believe we ought to revisit the details as to why Benedict was suddenly out. I predict it’s shrouded in corruption. I am so grateful that WE are the Church, not them. Good post you wrote, there, thank you very much for your input.
Rufolino says
I’m baffled.
Why would the Roman Catholic Church want to make friends with a religion which intends the destruction of Christianity ?
Frank Anderson says
Rufolino, It is not the billion/milliard or so Catholics who want to submit to islam. It is the leadership. Take a very short time which is required to find and read the United States Declaration of Independence. Think about how those statements, propositions and grievances might apply to current events. And remember, I am not Catholic, but have many close, long-time Catholic friends, and a Catholic half-brother.
Hoppla poppla says
The Catholic church never has been a Christian church that’s why we had the reformation to bring them back to Christ but they refused. Colluding with the Muslims would give them more power to fight against the Christians.
gravenimage says
Actually, the Catholic church had fought the Muslim threat for centuries. Those like Hoppla poppla would not be free today were this not so.
Donovan Nuera says
Can somebody take Pope Facebook down the eastern coast of Italy to Otranto’s main church and have him look at the altarpiece surrounding the dais? (The remains of 800 martyrs beheaded in a single day by invading Turks are encased and stacked behind glass walls behind the altar. Because of their sacrifice, Italian troops were able to reinforce the road that led to Rome as the Turks were delayed there). Can Pope bring up the whole “death to apostates” issue with his BFF Mufti al-Tayyab??? Hello??? Hello??? Any apologies???
old school says
Francis needs to spend the next several months in Africa – without his robes and without his body guards, just camping with the Christians who are fighting and dying for their faith. They’re not the ones doing the murdering, Francis. Get your rotten old bones down there and live with the victims for a while – quit slobbering over your imam friends.
gravenimage says
Good post Frank.
Nicu says
The Pope is a traitor – and NOT a Christian ! Catholic Church always was on the side of the powerful !
Noam Cherney says
A frustrated orthodox speaking ? However, I agree that this “Pope” is a Nauseating traitor on so many levels.
Robert Bradley says
No truthful Christian speaking weather you like to hear it or not
mortimer says
The pope is a dupe of Islamism. Christians should know the sort of supremacist even that is entailed in the “Month of Jihad, Battles, Martyrdom and Victories”
-The commandment of jihad, which is of supreme importance at all times, assumes even greater importance during this holy month and gains precedence over all other commandments.
-There is a close connection between fasting and jihad, for the former is jihad of the soul, aimed at restraining it from sinning, while the second is jihad against the enemies, aimed at preventing them from spreading “corruption” in the world. Moreover, fasting is a powerful means to prepare the soul for jihad, i.e., to school oneself in obedience, devotion, resilience and endurance, which are the virtues of the jihad fighter that allow him to vanquish his enemies. On Ramadan Allah grants fighters special strength, despite – or rather by virtue of – their fasting.
-Those who gain martyrdom during the month of Ramadan are doubly rewarded in Paradise.
-During Ramadan, the Muslims are especially beholden to protect the sanctity of the Muslim holy places and keep the infidels from “desecrating” or threatening them.
Conclusion:
Christians who celebrate Ramadan are celebrating their own political defeat.
mortimer says
correction EVENT not ‘even’
Carol the 1st says
Mortimer:
“During Ramadan, the Muslims are especially beholden to protect the sanctity of the Muslim holy places and keep the infidels from “desecrating” or threatening them.”
___
And thus we see even more clearly what has happened here:
1/ Frankie plays the hero by supposedly protecting churches.
2/ Frankie thrown up his hands like a donkey supplicant and rewards all church pillagers past and present by his sincere Christian promise that if churches are left alone then the kuffar will not interfere with nicely settled-in mosques. Al-Azhar finds this PARTICULARLY gratifying during Ramadan. It is the crowning piece de resistance at each and every iftar. Rewards for bad behavior are *such* great reinforcers! Praise be to Allah!
3/When inexplicable muslim outliers/wild cards break the rules and torch something like Notre Dame no one will be held accountable and peace will be maintained. Of course, goodly Christians will give ‘innocent muslims’ the benefit of the doubt and NOT break their holy promise in revenge (or common sense) and toss the stakeholding fortresses called mosques on the trash heap of history (where they MOST deservedly belong).
Frankie considers this a WIN-WIN situation. Has he been tested for Alzheimers?
Giacomo Latta says
When the Pope visits a mosque does he use the men’s entrance or the women’s entrance?
Templer says
The pope is the worst in history a traters he will step down this year and the new pope is wrightly so ate Muslim and islam the post is arid 2 years old
Tony Naim says
Mr Spencer
Whining does not resolve any issue . Trashing the Pope is not the best way to confront Islam either.
I believe the US Congress and the political will of the American government will have by far much more leverage than the Pope if our government has the will and the vision to take a clear course of action in that regard.
I DO agree with you, Islam wants to subjugate non-Muslims. That is why Sharia law has a provision that is dedicated to this matter alone. It is called the “LAWS OF DHIMMITUDE”.
I am sure your scholarship (nor the scholarship of Bernard Lewis , nor anyone else)has NOT led you yet to read the book of “ibn Kayyem Al-Jouziyya”, who is the Hanbali imam behind Those Laws.
Simply because that book is not available in English.
The book is known in Arabic as: “ Ahkam Ahl al-zoumma”. ( it is the religious Mein Kampf of Islam).
DHIMMITUDE IS RELIGIOUS APARTHEID. 1.5 billion people practice it. 7 million Jews in Israel are at risk because of it.If that is enough reason for our AMERICAN government to abolish it, it is plain stupid to count on the Pope to do so.
John says
We need a pope like Callixtus III.
Wellington says
I’d even settle for an Alexander VI.
Ada Taiber says
I think that the Pope has a lot of power and should use is for the western free world against Islam!!! This Pope is a Muslim in disguise….
Carol the 1st says
Unfortunately exposing the pope inevitably necessitates ‘trashing’ him.
Debra Gour says
The late Christian Evangelist, Jack Van Impe warned us about the One World Religion that would come once the Anti-Christ is revealed , according to the Bible. During the last 8 years or so some apostate Christians were saying we should merge into one Religion with the Muslims and called it ” Chrislam” !* The Bible tells True Christians to ” Be ye Holy as I am Holy “. Also instructs us ” to come out from among them “and have no part in False Doctrines or Beliefs. Mohammed of Islam made up his Religion by merging a Heathen Moon God with taking some verses out of the Jewish Torah !* He conquered the Jews in 600’s AD because they wouldn’t join his newly invented Religion !* I feel sorry for Muslims, as they are following a False Religion & Leader !* Praise to Jesus Christ as many are Coming to Salvation now as the World waits for the Rapture !* AMEN !* 🙂
Frank Anderson says
D.G. with great respect and courtesy to you, There is much merit to your contentions. Please consider the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible. Please also remember that Jesus of Nazareth, if he lived which we must take on faith, was a Jewish man who spoke and prayed at Jewish gatherings. Jews and Christians are children of the same Father; Unlike muslims.
I have spent much time in both communities, including many Christian denominations and believe Jesus would be pleased to share company with all of them. How many questions did Jesus ask Matthew?
Kepha says
While not a Dispensational Premilennial, I find Jesus’ historicity more than credible; and have just come from our church’s zoom meeting. The aguments raised against Jesus’ historicity can be raised against George Washington and Napoleon as well (dear old David Hume didn’t know what he had unleashed).
If you want to know why Presidents and others bow and scrape before Islam, it’s because too many of us in the West have mistaken the snide, bitter, and badly misled for intelligent teachers rather than the overripe rebellious adolescents they were.
Fred Orme says
G.K. Chesterton wrote about Chrislam in his novel “The Flying Inn”, published in 1914:
‘”Lord Ivywood is very enthusiastic, I know,” said Pump, with a restrained amusement. “He was saying only the other day at the Flower Show here that the time had come for a full unity between Christianity and Islam.” “Something called Chrislam perhaps,” said the Irishman, with a moody eye. ‘
Free download of the eBook: http://hellish2050.com/books/FlyingInn.pdf
gravenimage says
A fine book–and a cautionary tale for today.
Carol the 1st says
Has Prince Charles by chance modelled himself on Lord Ivywood?
CogitoErgoSum says
Meanwhile, Muslims are encouraged not to wish Christians a merry Christmas or a happy Easter. So, Catholics, don’t mention Jesus and instead stuff your mouth with food. No, sorry Pope Francis. I don’t think I would be able to do that. I would end up talking about Jesus and the Muslims would be offended.
jimjfox says
Ain’t religions WUNNERFUL!
CogitoErgoSum says
It makes me wonder if the way the Pope gets along so well with the Muslims is that he avoids ever talking to them about Jesus. He just tells them, “Yeah, you’re fine. Keep on doing what you’ve been doing.” It is a way to keep from offending people though. Except – Jesus often told people things they didn’t like to hear and He upset a lot of people.
Frank Anderson says
C.E.S., in my opinion a good example to follow regardless of the way he is understood. Of course, I am thinking of Jesus, and certainly not the pope (not deserving at present a capital)..
gravenimage says
jim, your idea that all religions are like Islam is mistaken. And there are many Atheists and Agnostics in denial about the threat of Islam, as well.
Lydia Church says
And it all comes down to JESUS! HE is the dividing line that all will fall upon and be divided over. He brings a very exclusive sword of division. Matthew 10; 34 and onward. That is why, go anywhere and talk about Jesus and the true gospel, and you open up a hornet’s nest for sure! When you speak the truth, the people get polarized and fired up on either one end or the other. The determinant is if He is your true Lord, or not. That is why the one world religion types, like this pope, avoid Jesus like a plague and just speak in flowery platitudes about getting along, common ground, greater good, sharing the wealth, interfaith harmony and dialogue, fraternity, inclusion, tolerance, unity, false love, world peace, and the brotherhood of humanity, all of which lead to the one world religion and to hell. Throw Jesus into the mix, the REAL Jesus, and it throws the whole operation asunder. Try it sometime! Only Jesus is the real solution and answer to all of the world’s problems.
The only temple is the true church, the only house of worship is where we meet, who believe in the deity of Christ and the true gospel of the Christian Bible! The God of heaven receives no other worship, but those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth!
andrew mckendrick says
Would love to share Ramadam ,but right now I am on a diet.
Carol the 1st says
Beware of Greeks bearing innocuous little muslim sweets! They shrewdly know that the way to a man’s heart is through his appetites!
Avenger says
The Clinton clan, GWBush, Obama and even Trump have all hosted Ramadan Iftar dinners in the White House. The US muslim population stands at .8%. So why in hell do US Presidents continually kiss the ass of Muslims? Is it because they’ve all accepted money from oil rich countries like Saudi Arabia?
Yes the pope is a very evil man but what can we also say about our treacherous US Presidents?
Terry Gain says
All of these Presidents attend Iftar dinners because of pressure from CAIR and all accept Islam as a religion rather than the conquest ideology that it is. Of course our elites argue that Islam is both, so Islam is allowed to have its cake and eat it too.
gravenimage says
Actually, few know that Islam is also a conquest ideology as well as a religion. Which of our elites are acknowledging this?
Carol the 1st says
Some bags of sludge or whatever are too big to wrap your arms around. Some typically explode just from the fumes they emit. So just remember to keep your social-distancing and hopefully this too shall pass!
Kepha says
Ramadan observances? The month is “holy” supposedly because it was the time when Jibril gave the Qur’an to Muhammad. If the Qur’an tells me that Jesus did not die on the cross (the necessary prelude to his resurrection, ascension, and glorification), it is a horrid collection of blasphemies that no Christian can respect. At best, it’s a confession that there’s one God and that He is judge of the world, but the blasphemies and misrepresentations it contains suffice to cancel out the little bit of good that it teaches.
As for this Pope, this is one of the times when I really thank God for the Reformation.
Wellington says
This latest idiotic move by the Vatican may prove to be the straw that broke the camel’s back. My God, what a descent the Catholic Church has taken since Vatican II (1962-1965) and especially since a Latin American leftist with no real appreciation of Western Civilization, America, capitalism, even national borders, and possessed of extraordinary ignorance of Islam has ascended to the throne of Saint Peter. Right now, I see the Roman Catholic Church in shambles and I take no delight in stating this.
Terry Gain says
I agree that Pope Francis is destroying Catholicism. The question is why. He can’t possibly believe the nonsense that he spouts about Islam and yet his profound ignorance appears to be genuine. It’s hard to believe that has chosen Islam over Christianity, but just as hard to believe that he doesn’t understand what is doing to the Catholic Church. Perhaps he’s become an atheist and believes that he can prevent a holy war by supporting Islam. He is certainly a marxist and a globalist.
CogitoErgoSum says
Today is called Good Shepherd Sunday in the Catholic Church and the Gospel reading for the Mass is John 10:1-10. In it Jesus calls Himself not only the Good Shepherd and the Gatekeeper but the Gate itself through which all must pass. The Pope ignores that Jesus refers to those who jump the fence as thieves and bandits. Francis wants to tear down the fence so the gate becomes unnecessary.
CogitoErgoSum says
Francis thinks fences and walls are bad things.
Carol the 1st says
But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven. Where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be.”
rooare says
If a Christian is blown to bits by a Jihadi homicide bomber this month is that considered ‘participation’? After all Ramadan is the month of jihad.
James says
I would say that Christians have the notion that if they just persist in showing openness and acceptance of Islam, eventually it will be reciprocated.But I think this is a bit like the gambler who thinks that if he just keeps on betting, eventually he will get back all he has lost and earn even more. But the bank usually wins. The casinos have far more money than the individual customer, which is why they earn a lot of money from gamblers- And likewise all the concessions to Islam are unlikely to ever be repaid by reciprocal tolerance and acceptance. To the contrary. It might happen on the personal basis among non-clergy and non-fanatics, but not on the societal level involving leaders of Islam.
Frank Anderson says
James, to me there are 2 primary differences between Judaism and Christianity. One is the worship of a human being, and the other is the role of guilt as it is used for control. Jews teach that guilt is a form of slavery, possibly the worst, because we do it to ourselves. Guilt destroys our sense of self-worth, much as muslims are taught, that they are worthless creations who can be sacrificed at any time by the will of their god. Jews and Christians teach that we are ALL the Children of a God who wishes us to live in freedom and respect, self and community. I think this may be another conflict between the present callings of leaders for self-destruction, and the teachings of life, health and freedom that are central to a good life and not fearing the certain end that is coming. Whether we call them false prophets, treacherous and treasonous leaders, or simply Quislings, they are not teaching life but death and slavery. When we see that, we will require change.
FYI says
I’m not one to spoil a party ,but just a note to the catholics who think allah is the same as the Christian God{as pope Bergoglio insists>but you will see that Theologically and logically that is not true..}
1]the koran denies Christ {koran 4:157}
2]the koran denies the Holy Spirit {koran 4:171/koran 5:116}
{the Denial of the Trinity= the denial not just of Jesus but ALSO the Helper,the HS}
3}Your muslim hosts subscribe to a “perfect” book,a book that is absolutely perfect {except for all the Theological,Logical,Historical,scientific and even grammatical errors in it}a bbok that says
“Christians and Jews are the WORST of created beings”
koran 98:6
4}islam has a Doctrine of HATE[al walaa wal baraa;allah missed that essential 2nd chief Commandment of God Lev19:18/Matthew 22:39 didn’t he?}
5}allah’s greatest ENEMY is a MAN called the “king of kings”{Sahih muslim vol 5 hadith #5611}now who do you think that is?What,the dawa folk /islamic apologists forgot to tell you that?
6}Those “fatiha” prayers:these “prayers”disparage Christians….every day.
Meanwhile francis is inventing new sins against the environment,a false theology which greatly assists the NWO-Globalists -but never mind:the vast majority of catholics won’t see that.
You are welcome to celebrate the kuffar festival of
Ed Haram Ramadamadiddlydamn
{all infidels are welcome:Hindus,Buddhists,ex muslim “apostates”,atheists,Jews,Christians..beer,bacon,comedy,the “song of a songstess”..}
FYI says
I meant EID …but actually ED is fine..
Happy Ed Haram Ramadamadiddlydamn to all infidels everywhere!
Beer?
Wellington says
Many Protestants as well, FYI, think Allah is the same deity as the Judeo-Christian one—ditto for many Orthodox Christians too.
Actually, while I think it possible to argue that Allah is not the Judeo-Christian deity at all, I also think it arguable that Allah is the same deity but horribly, erroneously and disgustingly characterized by Mohammedans.
Pretty much amounts to the same unfortunate result for the world.
Terry Gain says
Wellington,
You must be having a bad moment. You know very well that the Christian God is a Trinity. So no, Allah, even if he does exist, and he doesn’t, is not the same deity.
Wellington says
A bad moment? How?
What about the Jewish God, Terry? What say you about how Jews look upon the deity they think exists? Also not the same as the Christian God because Jews too do not accept the Trinity.
Your turn. This I want to hear.
CogitoErgoSum says
Wellington, Christians point to the Jewish scriptures and the words of the Old Testament prophets to support their belief in Jesus as being the Redeemer promised by God. So I would say the Jews and Christians do believe in the same God and they both accept the words spoken by that God (in the Old Testament anyway).
There is a difference in interpretation of God’s words, however. The Jews expect God’s promised Messiah to come as someone who will deliver the Jews from their enemies and then will rule over them in this world while the Christians see the Messiah as having already come in the person of Jesus who freed all people (Jewish or not) from bondage to Satan but who will not rule until this world has passed away and is made new again. The Jews and the Christians are looking at the same God. It’s just that the Jews are not seeing the aspects of God that the Christians do and therefore reject what the Christians see. Now, perhaps Jews think Christians worship a different God but Christians do not think the Jews worship a different God.
On the other hand the Muslim god specifically contradicts the words of the Christian God and, since Christians believe God never lies, the Muslim god cannot be the same as the God of the Christians (unless one thinks that God sometimes does lie or that the Bible really has been corrupted).
Just my opinion of course.
gravenimage says
Terry, I’m afraid there *are* a lot of Christians who believe that “Allah” is just another word for God.
If you google this, you will find that this is sadly the case.
Nothing Wellington said was wrong here, regarding either Judaism or Christianity.
Carol the 1st says
I was thinking about Eastern spiritual practices and wondering if muslims by their freaky doings and illogical OCD manage to drum up some inexplicable Shaktipat beaming out their antennas.
Conclusion: Naw – not likely, since others would likely benefit from that kind of glow and it’s certainly not happening via Islam. It’s not that spirituality necessarily comes on full-blown and automatically perfects a human being but the LIGHT tends to automatically dismiss the DARK and so I think practitioners of the muslim creed are still in that dark ditch holding hands and so far as I’m concerned they can scramble on endlessly so long as they keep out of my way and off my radar.
P.S.They can send me a note if they’d like their pal Frankie to come guide them by his shining example!
Carol the 1st says
Anything similar to “spiritual” in the Islamic world is “in spite of Islam” and not because of it. Poisons really don’t promote growth.
RichardL says
Many scholars still believe Paul got it right when he forbade the early Greek Christians to eat food that is sacrificed to idols and other gods. The majority believes it is safe if one blesses the food. I am happy to be in the minority and never touch halal shit. When I am in Mohammedan countries I stick to fish and veggies or find non-Mohammedan restaurants.
Carol the 1st says
I can’t go in for a simple, cheap lunch anymore as our main street has HALAL on every snack bar window. If the burger joints jump on that turnip truck I’ll start carrying my lunch.
Wellington says
I agree with you, Terry, that the “why” here is a puzzle reasonable minds can differ about, but that Francis is doing great harm, perhaps irreparable harm, to Roman Catholicism is no longer disputable I would contend.
I am inclined to think that the core reason for Francis’s many foolish statements and actions is that he is a muddled thinker. He’s well educated but many muddled thinkers are. It’s as though there is something missing in the brain of those who function in “Muddle Land.”
Of course, he COULD be actively and deliberately malevolent but I rather doubt it. His “problem” is what I’ve seen with many people I have known personally and that is that they lack a “something” that makes the brain work optimally. There is also the very possible and additional factor of sheer ignorance. Many successful people in their profession are amazingly ignorant about matters they should not be, whether teachers, lawyers, doctors, politicians, judges, journalists, etc.
What a damn shame this man has become Pope. It’s a tragedy of the first dimension still in the making.
Frank Anderson says
Wellington, peace, greetings and respect: Without my naming names, how many times can you think of in the last 100 or so years where malevolent people have been allowed to continue their march of destruction and conquest because of the failure or refusal to see their malevolence? Am I alone in questioning the lack of insight in history by leaders failing to protect their charges because they are too busy “giving the benefit of the doubt”. How many lives have been lost because of indecision and wishful thinking? How many more?
When I see someone is cutting my throat, figuratively or literally, and I see it in progress, I do not give him the “benefit of the doubt” and allow him to continue. I have not only a right, but a duty, of self defense. I am useless to you and anyone else if I am dead or enslaved.
Was a certain man with the initials AH a “muddled thinker”? How about Neville Chamberlain? We are looking at impending damage far greater now than either of these people ever imagined. Whatever the reason or excuse, allowing the destruction of Western Civilization is a fraud and a crime which should be dealt with within the bounds of the law, but sooner than later.
Wellington says
Hi, Frank. Hope you are doing well in a very unwell world.
Some muddled thinkers are essentially benign (e.g., Chamberlain) and other muddled thinkers are pure evil (e.g., Hitler). Paradox here is that the benign muddled thinkers quite arguably contribute more to human tragedy than the purely evil muddled thinkers do since the former hesitate to early on take out the latter. This was Ayn Rand’s point above almost all other points she made.
You know, I have often wondered if Jesus would have sanctioned “eliminating” Hitler in the late 1930’s before Der Fuhrer began the most destructive war in man’s history in September of 1939. Ayn Rand would have sanctioned such but would Jesus have been OK with this and, if not, what does this say about the efficacy and ethics of Jesus’ “turn the other cheek” instructive?
Frank Anderson says
W., I think we must, if we follow the reasoning of the law, hold all who “aid, abet, counsel or act in furtherance” equally guilty with the principal actor. (18 United States Code, Section 2). Chamberlain in my mind made Hitler’s evil possible. He had every reason to know and was through his channels aware from Germans who were planning to kill Hitler if Czechoslovakia were invaded contrary to UK and French guarantees, and yet rushed to Munich to sell out instead of standing firm. There is speculation he may have intended to report the plot. But it appears from the lack of arrests Chamberlain did not report what the British government knew. I suggest there is no such thing as a benign muddled thinker. All are equally guilty and deserve condemnation in history for their part in killing over 50 million people.
I read and think much about the wisdom of Jesus. I think he was much more practical than some believe. Dead people have a hard time worshiping a God of Life. I can think of several statements attributed to Jesus favoring life. The reason I say with care the word attributed can be found in Burton Mack’s Who Wrote the New Testament, which gives me pause in blind acceptance of the divinity of a Jewish man. (I believe after much thought and prayer, very humbly, that we are all God’s Children and brothers and sisters of the man who lived for that message. We are given, as a really painful personal lesson has taught me, the choice of accepting or rejecting that Fatherhood.) Jesus probably had, as a man of action, an understanding when it was necessary to fight and when fighting was self-defeating. I agree in light of that, if he were where he could tell his preference, Hitler would not have been allowed to do what he did. But, remember there is an account of a British soldier who had Hitler in his rifle sights and failed to take the shot.
There is so much we will never know in this life. But do we want to allow others to cut our lives short and sell us into slavery or murder because we refuse to decide what we must? The pope has no right or authority to sell us to islam, death and slavery. I always wish you well. Your turn?
CogitoErgoSum says
I would like to contribute my thoughts – for what they are worth. Turning the other cheek is what Jesus told us to do in our dealings with each other on a daily basis. I see it as a warning to be slow to anger and to give a person who offends us unjustly a chance to repent of his actions. However, I don’t see it as Jesus telling us to be a doormat others can use for wiping their feet at any time they wish. Also, it would be unjust to stand idly by and watch one person beat another senseless without intervening to stop the beating. If the intervention comes too late and one man kills another, certainly the laws of the state concerning the punishment for murder should be applied, including use of the death penalty if determined appropriate.
As for killing Hitler preemptively, I’ve mentioned before I don’t think a man should be killed for what he might do in the future – only for what he has done. Once a leader like Hitler goes far enough to cause another country to declare war upon him and his government, and the war is determined to be a just war, I don’t see why a person fighting in that war should have a problem with shooting or bombing the enemy (just not by use of a suicide bomber). Killing someone like Hitler would be a matter for heads of state to decide and Jesus made it clear there is a distinction between the laws of God and the laws of man. Jesus is the final judge but His time of judgment does not come before the last day.
Wellington says
Sorry, Frank, but you dodged my query. I would appreciate a direct response whether, in your opinion, Jesus would have authorized the assassination of Hitler in, say, 1937.
And I don’t care about some British soldier having Hitler in his sight. Irrelevant. Completely.
It’s a simple question, Frank. I don’t particularly care about a discourse on Jesus’ wisdom, etc. That’s for another time I would argue, interesting topic though it is. Would Jesus have been OK with “taking out” Adolf? It’s a straight forward query desiring a straight forward answer.
Frank Anderson says
W. I think Jesus would have approved the elimination of Hitler at many different times and events before Poland was invaded in 1939, particularly before Chamberlain sold out in Munich. I think of the admonition to “turn the other cheek” and “go two miles” indicates a limit to concessions to tyranny. It was not taught to turn the other cheek without limit or walk unlimited extra miles, once was enough, and then self-interest and self-respect apply. I hope I am clearer. It was not my intention to dodge the question.
My reference to the event from WWI is for a limited purpose of asking whether a divine intervention took place. I feel like I have experienced such amazing events in my life that they can happen. Again, we will never know in this life. I hope I have done better in responding?
Wellington says
With respect, CES, your response is the kind of hedging on religious matters that is one of a multitude of reasons why I ceased being religious long, long ago.
You aver that Jesus asserting that turning the other cheek is on a personal level but not a state level, but where is this clearly written other than the render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and, blah, blah, blah? Way too much ambiguity here. Clarity is absent. So people like yourself who believe are compelled to saying something like, well, I think this is what Jesus meant……He should have been clearer, CES.
Ambiguity is found all over the pages of religious literature, including the New Testament. For instance, in Mark 16:16 Jesus says that those who are not baptized and don’t believe are condemned. Would this include those who lived hundreds of years before Jesus? How about some poor, illiterate Hindu farmer in the 6th century A.D. who never heard about Jesus but was a good man with his parents, his own family and his neighbors? He couldn’t possibly have “believed” and been baptized so what about his fate? And if Jesus was going to be ambiguous about eternal salvation or the lack thereof, you’d think he would have been clearer, no? Actually, quite irresponsible not to be.
So tired, CES, of excuse making where religious belief is concerned. My God, even the Gospels can’t even get their chronology correct. In Matthew, Jesus is born when Herod the Great is still alive and we know he died in 4 B.C. But in Luke Jesus is born when Cyrinus was Governor of Syria, which didn’t happen until 6 A.D. So, there is at least a ten year discrepancy between Matthew and Luke here respecting when Jesus was born. Very, very sloppy. There also is no historical record whatsoever that a census for “the whole world” per Luke Chapter 2 was ordered by Augustus and it is risible that people would have to travel to their place of origin to do so—what a colossal mess in a pre-transportation age this would have entailed. It would be unrealistic not to be skeptical about all this.
As another example, in Mathew Jacob is the father of Joseph who is the father of Jesus, but in Luke Heli is the father of Joseph. What’s going on here? Yes, perhaps one was the biological father and the other a step-father but considering that Christians think that the New Testament is the divine word of God, you’d at least expect much clearer accuracy than this.
And then there is the whole crucifixion story which doesn’t add up for a multitude of reasons, some of which are that Pilate, who was Prefect of Judea (and Samaria) for about three years before Jesus is brought to him on good Friday, doesn’t appear in any of the four Gospels to know who Jesus is until that day. Well, every governor of a Roman province had a spy service and Pilate surely would have known about Jesus long before he was brought to him. Moreover, those crucified were crucified naked and yet Jesus is for religious, modesty and artistic reasons depicted with a loin cloth. And no Roman governor that we have any record of would have ever allowed a prisoner freedom because of some local religious festival, which is exactly what occurs with the whole Barabbas story, which story is suspiciously compounded by the fact that the very name is contrived—it comes from the Aramaic, bar and abba, which would mean this guy’s name was Son of the Father. This makes no sense and has fiction written all over it. There is also the fact that Roman soldiers were under strict orders to keep all people far away from the crucified but yet in the Gospels Mary and St. John stand at the foot of the cross. Embellishment again, CES. And those crucified were NEVER taken down for weeks so that their corpse would rot for all to see what violating Roman law entailed and yet Jesus is taken down, per the Gospels, the very day he dies. And this too is suspicious because it took days for a person to die from slow asphyxiation, which was part of the whole point of crucifixion—it was meant to be a terrible and slow death.
Sorry, CES, while I think the Judeo-Christian ethic is generally a good one, the theology (and even chronology and genealogy and basic facts about so much) leaves me wanting—to put it mildly. I am a skeptic to the core. I think I have a great deal of reason to be, though I do wish every Muslim would become a Christian. Here I think we will have no disagreement, but this wish of mine is due primarily to the fact that Christianity in its theological blueprint is not inimical to liberty but Islam in its theological blueprint most certainly is.
Always good to read your posts. Hope you don’t take my comment here too personally. Besides, you could be right about Jesus and I wrong but I wonder if you would concede the opposite.
CogitoErgoSum says
Wellington, I have often wondered myself about the things you have pointed out. I’ve decided I don’t care. My belief in Jesus gives me hope that there is something more to life than just this existence we have in the here and now. I don’t care if I seem foolish to some people. Yes, I do have to fill in the blanks sometimes but overall Christ gives me a model for the way I should live my life and I think it’s a good way to live. When I have to make decisions where I’m not sure what is best to do and it appears all my choices are bad, I just pray that I make the choice that will result in the least amount of evil in the world, as I understand evil.
Yeah, I could be wrong. I just have to have faith that whatever comes after this life will be something better. I can’t bring myself to think there is nothing more. When I do start thinking that this life is all there is, I get a feeling of hopelessness. I guess you don’t get that feeling and you have every right to believe whatever you want to believe. My father felt the same as you do and I loved him dearly. I hope to see him again some day because I believe Jesus shows mercy even to those who have not known Him. That is the reason it is said that Christ descended into Hell during the time between His death and resurrection. Those who lived and died before still were given a chance to know Him. I know it’s a leap of faith to believe that. All I can say is I wish you peace and the freedom to live the way that makes you happy no matter what – and since this is a website for discussing religious beliefs, or lack thereof, I will continue to comment and I hope you will continue also. I’m always glad to read what you have to say..
Wellington says
Thank you, CES, for your thoughtful and obviously sincere reply. Now back to the fight.
Carol the 1st says
Jesus was supposedly guided by an outside drummer. He would dance to that tune.
Terry Gain says
Wellington
We agree that this Pope is a disaster, not just for Catholicism but for the world. I am completely at a loss to understand what is wrong with him.
Frank Anderson says
T.G., I suggest it is a waste of time and misdirection of effort to try to figure out why, when the priority should be given to what can be done to control, limit and repair the damage he has done and is doing. Some things are just not ours to explain in this life.
Carol the 1st says
Hi Frank, I can’t resist butting in here because I know you’re sentimental about family histories and lessons learned.
I had an uncle I never knew, he died in France at the age of 18 just before WW1 ended, he’d joined at the age of 16 before his family knew what he was up to (a young Irishman from rural County Cork and probably with the usual positive attitude toward that war that young men had). He’d been chosen to be a SNIPER so I hope he wasn’t the one you heard about! According to an aunt of mine he’d been a real “crack shot”- killing clever crows in the fields above the farmland had honed his skills. She said he was probably her dearest sibling. You hate to think how he likely died. Snipers were targeted of course. but Spanish flu likely killed most in the trenches.
Take care!
Frank Anderson says
Carol, I wish you well and am pretty sure your uncle was not the soldier involved. He is named in one of the many documentaries I have recorded concerning the WWI-WWII era. I think he may have been in a video or film recorded interview. If we think we have seen hard times, and we have, and will more, others have seen worse. If they survived, so can we.
Frank Anderson says
Carol, I looked for the documentary that names the British soldier who passes up killing Hitler in WWI. His name was Henry Tandey, according to the first episode of the The World Wars series on Tubi streaming. I try to avoid making things up.Frank
Kepha says
Theological liberalism, whether Protestant or RC, has always been a game of doing all the running one can to remain a respectful five paces behind one’s “kutlcha-ed” despisers.
tim gallagher says
I’m convinced that not just this Pope, but the fellow travellers amongst his advisors in the Church, who all seem to see islam as some pleasant and friendly ideology, are all living in some weird fantasy land. I don’t understand why they have such a wrong headed view of islam, it is what you would have to call a Pollyanna-ish version of what Islam is like, but I believe that murderously evil Islam is the complete opposite of Christianity, and that all this cosying up to islam is idiotic and dangerous. The Koran is full of expressions of hatred for all non-Muslims, so all these fools have to do is read some parts of the Koran to discover the unpalatable truth about Islam. The evidence is all there and also in the constant murdering of Christians by Muslims. The Muslim enemy would be having a big laugh at the naivety of these very foolish Church leaders. As a Christian, I wouldn’t listen to the nonsense about Islam that the Pope and his fellow travellers spout. They may know about other issues but are ignorant fools on the subject of Islam. I think Islam is Satanically evil, so it is really weird watching this Pope regularly doing public relations work for Islam. I don’t think the Christian God will be pleased because this Pope is being complicit in evil when he champions Islam.
Frank Anderson says
t.g., i’m sorry if I run in the ground my comparison of Nazi Germany with current events. I think there is much to learn from then that applies now. How many in the Nazi leadership would dare see anything differently than the accepted view? How long would they last? Then they would be shot or sent to a camp. Now the method of disposal may be different; but the same result obtained-silence and acquiescence from those who remain. I think making those historical references and comparisons helps understand today. Islam is a criminal conspiracy masquerading as a religion, with the goal of conquest, slavery and death. Judaism and Christianity aspire to life and freedom. And so to many others who should all join in spite of any differences for the future. The AntiChrist may not be one person but an entire group of 1.5 billion/milliard people sharing the same goal, destruction.
tim gallagher says
I agree with what you say, Frank. I honestly don’t get this Pope and his advisors. As I said above, they seem to inhabit a fantasy land and have this ridiculously rosy, Pollyanna-ish view of Islam. I agree with you that Islam is a criminal conspiracy which masquerades as a religion. But, the Pope and his crowd of apologists for Islam, are in extremely responsible positions and they should go and do a bit of research and see how evil the reality of Islam is. I’m a Christian and I believe the Christian God will be mightily displeased with this Pope for supporting such an obviously evil ideology as Islam. To me, it is so weird and disturbing watching the leader of the Catholic Church championing Islam, which I believe is Satanically evil. I can’t believe the Pope is actually evil, so I guess it must be that he is just completely ignorant when it comes to Islam. If I want the point of view of a Christian, who is also extremely knowledgeable about Islam, Robert Spencer is the one I’ll listen to.
Frank Anderson says
Mr. Gallagher, I think any disagreement we may have is much less important than the agreement we do have on the necessity and urgency of defending our freedom. Forgive me please for not remembering whether you live in the US and may consider US law interesting or relevant. I obviously live in the US and am obligated to consider US law in composing my thoughts. In US law, it is not necessary that every participant in a criminal conspiracy know all the details to be responsible. One case writes that deliberate ignorance constitutes knowledge of the truth. If a person accepts and supports the goals, he is in. Also under US law, anyone who “aids, abets, counsels or acts in furtherance” of a crime, a felony, under federal law is equally guilty. There is a case I wrote about in one of my research papers where an employee was ordered to pay company bills other than taxes and found himself liable to pay the taxes out of his own pocket. The legal impact of the Treaty of London which formed the UN in 1945 was to eliminate for all nations ratifying that treaty the criminal defense claim of superior orders. This is my analysis and reasoning which is probably important only to me. I will do my best, regardless of any disagreement, to work with anyone who wishes to oppose the goals of islam to conquer, enslave and destroy the world.
tim gallagher says
Frank, we are both fighting the good fight against a very obviously evil and barbaric enemy, islam. I live in Australia and I have little knowledge of the law out here, or rather the intricacies of the law. I studied Modern History and English Literature and was a pretty unhappy teacher for a while, before doing other types of work. I am sort of a Catholic. I was brought up as a Roman Catholic, but, though I occasionally attend Mass these days, I certainly take no notice of anything this Pope says about Islam. I was pleased to see, when I read Robert Spencer’s “The History of Jihad” that there had been Popes who cut through the crap and called Islam the evil force that it is. You have a great deal of knowledge of the law. I suspect the law in the USA differs greatly from Australia’s law. I’m sure ours would be very similar to that of the UK. It’s always good to read your comments here at Jihad Watch.
Frank Anderson says
Mr. Gallagher, Thank You for reminding me that you live in Australia. I had the great pleasure of knowing an engineer who came from Australia to help start a shipyard where I live. He was a prince and a most courteous person. I’m supposed to know something about US law and have earned and kept licenses to practice law in 2 states for soon to be 40 years. That kind of makes me a pill to some people without intending to be. The reason I write so much about these particular statutes and cases is that they were crucial to a war I had to protect my licenses when I was ordered to violate the law.
The US, except Louisiana, follows the same Common Law traditions as the UK and Australia. Louisiana is somewhere between Common Law and French/Roman Civil Law in its practices. I worked in Louisiana for a time negotiating contracts for a utility. Without knowing, I predict Australian law is not very different from US in what is expected of those who obey the law.
I have seen so many corrupt and dishonest people in my life because that is what is involved in most problems in one way or another that reach lawyers’ offices. Dishonest and corrupt people are a blight on society which robs the rest of us of our money, freedom and lives. They never change because they think they are not bound by any moral, legal or ethical duty until they are crushed. I have the blessing of friends who are PhD Psychologists and MD Psychiatrists who have helped me in my practice to identify and deal with such people. I hope my comments help you see some things and issues you may not have considered before. I wish you well. Frank
tim gallagher says
Thanks for the comment, Frank. As I said before, your comments are always informative and worth reading. All the best to you. You’re right about corruption. There’s plenty of that here in Australia, as there is in any country, although I guess, compared to some countries, we are probably pretty squeaky clean.
Frank Anderson says
tim. I wish it were true about corruption in your country. I am afraid from my own experience and the essential confiscation of private firearms in your country, that corruption is present but very effectively hidden. Only tyrants have reason to fear armed, law-abiding citizens. I apologize for any offense; none is intended for you.
tim gallagher says
Frank, I was merely making the point that Australia is better than some of the third world countries (say Asian countries near Australia), where bribery and corruption seem rife. A few Australians have got into strife in Bali recently and they just pay the bribe and they are off the hook. That seems to be how those societies work. Australia is quite a bit better than that. But, of course, we have tonnes of crooks here. The Muslims we have foolishly let into our society are some of the worst criminals we have ever had here, but that is no surprise. I know what you are saying about the firearms. Firearms have never been a big deal for most people out here I would say, ( I had a rifle years and years ago as a teenager and shot a few rabbits on a farm, which I now regret, as someone who loves animals, probably more than most people) although I do know that the gangsters have no trouble getting guns on the black market out here. But I get what you mean about maybe, one day, having to defend ourselves against a tyrant. Corruption is part of every human society, but Australia is not bad when compared to many societies.
Frank Anderson says
tim, I have a sore spot, a great sensitivity, about corruption. I was working for a man who was president of the state boy scout association, state chamber of commerce, local church board, and every other organization he touched, who fired and blackballed me for refusing to help him and the board of directors of the company steal over 200 million dollars in present value. I was working in an unbelievably corrupt state where the bar and supreme court participated in a scheme to punish me for obeying the law and state bar requirements. I was destroyed in every detail of my life except for life itself and my 2 law licenses. Needless to say after they got through with my reputation, employment was impossible. These people were at the very top of the legal system and knowingly participated in the federal crime of “harassing, oppressing and intimidating” a federal witness, (18 United States Code, Section 1503 and 1512) and nothing was ever done to punish them for their crimes. So, I have a really tainted and bitter outlook when corruption is downplayed. Some of it is everywhere. It is just a matter of looking instead of pretending it does not exist. I am truly sorry for any insult or discomfort you may take. NONE is intended to you.
tim gallagher says
Frank, I was not offended at all by anything you wrote, so don’t worry about that. And I am very sorry to hear about your life being pretty much destroyed by the corrupt people who tried to destroy you. I can certainly understand why corruption is such a major preoccupation for you. That would be the case for anyone who went through the experience you went through. It would have been hard to even keep going when people have tried to destroy you in that way. I hope you have still managed to enjoy life to some degree despite what they did to you. Life is difficult for many people, that’s for sure. My own struggles have been with pretty severe mental illness, which, in my case, seems to have a pretty strong genetic component. I have definitely had a few periods in my life where I have been insane, though I am generally reasonably lucid, though often pretty deeply depressed. But I have still managed to enjoy life to quite some some degree. I suppose that is the best we can do, despite the horrible things that happen to us.
Frank Anderson says
tim, the same people used the same plan to get a number of dissident/uncooperative/malcontents to kill themselves in a number of ways. They never figured on the training I received in college that make that most unlikely for me. I have done several really great things in spite of, and perhaps because of. what happened to me. Much of what i have done is as much because of the help and support of friends as it is my own effort. We are in the company of angels who we sometimes see as friends. Who can we help today? Frank
tim gallagher says
Well said, Frank. That comparison of friends with angels is a good one, and one I hadn’t heard before. Anyway, as you say, you have managed to achieve some great things, despite the attempts by these corrupt creatures to destroy your life. I haven’t run into people as obviously evil as those people that you have tangled with, (they sound like a very evil bunch of people) but I have certainly had a few people who have tried to do plenty of harm to me over the years. Some good friends and family have certainly helped to get me through. Plus, I’ve got to say that I believe, at least most of the time, that the Christian God is carrying me along.
Frank Anderson says
As I understand the same God teaches Jewish people too. He teaches me. Even if I am not accepted in either community.
GreekEmpress says
Participate in an Iftar dinner?
Thanks, I’ll pass—-
James Lincoln says
Which of the following is NOT true about Pope Francis?
He is:
a. A Marxist.
b. A globalist.
c. A muslim apologist.
d. An islamophile
e. A Catholic and promoter of Christianity throughout the world.
Wellington says
And yours, James, was not even a trick question. Kinda’ wish it had been because it would give others a modicum of hope. No such luck.
PRCS says
Um, er, ah, eeee, uhh…
Terry Gain says
Good one James.
Pieter says
Shorth, e., he is a trader of Christianity and misleader from his followers.
ploome says
Look Robert:
Nauseating islamic propaganda
https://www.thisisamerica.net
PRCS says
“affirming that “a place of worship of any religion therefore is ‘a house of prayer.’””
O.K., fair enough.
Prayers.
But that completely misses the point, of course, which is what’s prayed for down at the ‘ole masjid.
Qur’an 9:29
https://quran.com/9/29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
mortimer says
The pope claims that Ramadan ” … is a propitious time to further strengthen our relationships with you.”
Ramadan is the month when Muslims extend and consolidate their power over the dirty kufaar.
The intention of Ramadan is to increase the piety of Muslims so that they are ready for jihad.
Muslims do not ‘love’ their non-Muslim neighbors … they conquer them. That is the message of Ramadan.
spiro says
Why doesn’t. this pope convert or is he waiting to take his whole church with him to Islam it looks like he’s leaning
that way
Carolyne says
They should get a room and get it over with.
PRCS says
I heard they did.
gravenimage says
Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue urges Catholics to participate in Ramadan iftars
……………………
Utter insanity.
Jim says
Sorry Pope, I’m staying clear of heretics, like martyrs of old. St Francis found it useless to try to dialog with Islam. Do you think you can do one better than the saint? It shall fail.
Peter WF says
When is the pope going to lead by example – How many refugees has he settled in the vatican?
Vivien Hall says
Isaiah 56 v 7 doesn’t say that all places of worship are houses of prayer it says that God’s house of worship is a place of worship for all peoples. In other words anyone can believe in and pray to God but in his house of prayer it’s got to be true worship, not the vile death cult of Islam.
Major Tom says
“Birds of a feather…..”
Pieter says
This pope is the biggest trader of Christianity, and misleader of his followers.
abu taleb says
Catholic doesn’t consider as an evil religion at all, on the contrary, it admires Islam.
Paul VI, Ecclesiam Suam 107, August 6, 1964
“Then [we refer] to the adorers of God according to the conception of monotheism, the Muslim religion especially, deserving of our admiration for all that is true and good in their worship of God.”
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm
Shastra says
as expected given a choice to choose btw peaceful hindus, buddhists, atheists and intolerant muslims. christians would choose fellow abrahamic brethren muslims. pope just proved it. no wonder christians always supported muslims.
gravenimage says
Shastra, this is *not* true of all or even most Christians. You know this is not true of Robert Spencer and other Christians here.
And it is only Muslims who natter on about Islam being “an Abrahamic religion”. Really, Muslims want to subjugate and murder Jews and Christians, just as they do all other non-Muslims.
Mike says
Anyone care to guess what I WON’T be doing during ramadan ?
No Muzzies Here says
The kiss on the lips says it all: willing submission. Not really surprising, coming from the man who favored the Iran nuclear “deal” and opposes sanctions.
janwog says
As long as the moderate Muslims are not at the forefront to fight against Muslim persecution of non Muslims. There is no opportunity to celebrate Iftar.
Richard Kruse says
Are they sucking tongues? Muhammad liked doing that.
somehistory says
This fool is a fraud, pretender, and, imo, inspired by demons, notoriously, satan the devil.
First of all, the Bible…the “Book” that he claims to read and follow and to teach others for whom he pretends to be a shepherd…says that “eating and drinking at the table of the demons,” is not for Christians. 1 Corinthians 10 clearly states. “You can’t partake of the cup of the Lord and the cup of the demons; You cannot partake of the table of the Lord, and the table of demons.”
A person must choose from which table and cup…one cannot do both, just as a person “Cannot serve two masters,” as Jesus Christ said.
This fool for satan, idiot for islam, is telling Christians to do just the opposite of the Bible’s instructions and commands.
Once, some years ago, I had a conversation with a guy who said he was a warlock. I was talking to him about the Bible and he said, “I’ve read the Bible. I read the Bible. But I read it backwards.”
I asked what he meant by that and he said, “What it says to do, I don’t do and what it says not to do, I do those things.”
Evidently the ‘pope’ would rather be known as a satan-worshipping warlock. If he reads the Bible at all, he reads it backwards. He has proven this many times. He has chosen his “table” and his “cup” and they are not of “the Lord” He has chosen his “master,” and it isn’t Jesus Christ.
Any one who follows the lead of this false shepherd, this loser, will also lose out on Life.
OLD GUY says
As a catholic I cannot agree or adhere to the Pope’s request to participate in RAMADAN with islamic followers. The same islamic followers who are beheading, raping Christian women and girls and burning Catholic and Christian churches around the world. Not a chance in HELL will I celebrate with these animals.
gravenimage says
Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue urges Catholics to participate in Ramadan iftars
……………….
What a useful idiot. Muslims will just use this to bombard Infidels with lies about Islam.
Carol the 1st says
Poor muslim beastie! The left paw can’t control what the right paw is doing!