Useful Idiots such as Giles Fraser, who couch their capitulation in the guise of being broadminded, tolerant, and generous, will be the death of us.
Giles Fraser has offered an argument from authority, which is the weakest of all arguments: Christians and Muslims worship the same God because the Pope Francis and the Second Vatican Council say so. In reality, there are immediate and obvious differences: the Trinity, the crucifixion, and the divinity of Christ. Beyond that, Islam in its traditional theological formulations denies free will, the nature of good and evil (both of which, says the Qur’an [91:7-8], are placed in the soul by Allah, while the Christian idea is that evil stems from a rejection of God), and the nature of the deity. Allah is absolute will; Islamic theologians throughout Islamic history have held that even to expect consistency in moral or physical laws would be placing restraints on his sovereignty.
All this was known in the Christian world up until the 1960s. Vatican II’s affirmation that Muslims and Christians together worship the one God, and pointed omission of any discussion of what had led the two to be in conflict for 1,400 years, was a radical departure from the statements of many popes, as well as of saints and martyrs.
“Theologian: Vatican II Justifies Hagia Sophia As Mosque,” by Jules Gomes, ChurchMilitant.com, July 10, 2020:
ISTANBUL (ChurchMilitant.com) – A controversial theologian is quoting Pope Francis and Vatican II to justify Turkey’s decision returning the world’s largest Byzantine basilica to its conquered status as a mosque.
Giles Fraser, a liberal Anglican, says he “cannot but applaud” radical Islamic president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s “desire to return this once holy place back to a mosque.”
“Christians should be delighted” if Hagia Sophia reverts to being a mosque because “Muslims are our brothers and sisters with whom we share a faith in the living God,” Fraser argues.
Church Militant reported Thursday that the Council of State, Turkey’s top administrative court, reached a unanimous verdict declaring that secularist President Kemal Atatürk’s 1934 decision to turn Hagia Sophia into a museum was unlawful.
Fraser, a Nietzsche scholar, claims he is offering “no less an authority than the pope himself,” to “those Christians who believe that Muslims and Christians worship something different.”
The former columnist for The Guardian quotes Pope Francis’ tweet ahead of his trip to Morocco last year to make his case that Christians and Muslims worship the same God: “We Christians and Muslims believe in God, the Creator and the Merciful, who created people to live like brothers and sisters, respecting each other in their diversity and helping one another in their needs,” the pontiff tweeted in March 2019.
“This view goes back to the Second Vatican Council, where it was affirmed that Muslims, ‘together with us adore the one, merciful God,'” writes Fraser, citing Lumen Gentium.
“And from the Muslim side, the Qur’an makes it clear that Muslims worship the same God as the Jews,” notes Fraser, providing a hyperlink to the Koran (2:132).
“Giles Fraser has offered an argument from authority, which is the weakest of all arguments: Christians and Muslims worship the same God because Pope Francis and the Second Vatican Council say so,” distinguished Islamic scholar Robert Spencer told Church Militant.
“In reality, there are immediate and obvious differences — the Trinity, the Crucifixion, and the divinity of Christ,” said Spencer, author of over 20 books including Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics: 100 Questions and Answers. “All this was known in the Christian world up until the 1960s.”
Spencer explains:
Vatican II’s affirmation that Muslims and Christians together worship the one God — and pointed omission of any discussion of what had led the two to be in conflict for 1,400 years — was a radical departure from the statements of many popes, as well as of saints and martyrs….
medforth says
Germany: Merkel’s public television celebrates the conversion of the Hagia Sophia into a mosque
The news programme Tagesschau of the German public television takes on Islamic thinking.
It is created the impression that the Haghia Sophia would come AGAIN ( =BACK!) to Islam. Consequently, the name of the church is not mentioned.
The method is not new. Tagesschau also agrees with the “Palestinians” who want “their” land BACK.
https://medforth.blog/2020/07/11/germany-merkels-public-television-celebrates-the-conversion-of-the-hagia-sophia-into-a-mosque/
Red Pill says
Germany is doomed.
rooare says
A cursory study of Christianity and of Islam shows clearly the Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. For a so called theologian to claim they do makes that person a satanic stooge.
Red Pill says
+1
Verk says
I’m not a religious person but dear me, that was well said, sir/madam.
tim gallagher says
I couldn’t agree more, rooare. I believe that Christianity and Islam are complete opposites (and vicious allah and the Christian God are nothing at all like one another) and also that aggressive Islam is a threat to Christianity and to Christians (and all non-Muslims) everywhere in the world. I honestly can’t believe how dumb some of these supposed scholarly types of people are. This theologian is doing the devil’s work by supporting Islam, which seeks to destroy Christianity. How he can call himself a Christian theologian is beyond my understanding when he is working for Islam, the enemy of Christianity. Then again, this current Pope seems to be doing the same evil work when it comes to Islam.
mortimer says
A theologian should be expected to understand the enormous difference between the crafty, deceiving Allah and the loving, truthful deity of the New Testament.
Giles Fraser is revealing his lack of knowledge of Islamic theology and his carelessness of thought.
Andrew Walker says
+1
tim gallagher says
Thanks for the comment, mortimer, and the +1, Andrew. Yes, I think that the concept of what God is like in Christianity and in islam are polar opposites. As you say, mortimer, the difference is enormous. Anyone who is incapable of seeing the obvious differences and who goes on with this crap about how the two religions worship the same God gets no respect whatsoever from me. allah is not just crafty and deceiving, but is evil and the calls for Muslims to kill non-Muslims, to marry young girls, to carry out honour killings, etc, show what a vile version of what god is like Muslims believe in. mortimer, it is obvious from what you write here at Jihad Watch that you know a million times more about Islam than clowns like this theologian or this present Pope.
spiro says
He’s a fool
Sobieski says
Next up…Fraser says that the slaughter of Christians by Boko Haram is a delightful development that all Christians should be thrilled about. And, the kidnapping of Christian girls by Muslims is an especially delightful development which all Christians should be able to appreciate.
gravenimage says
Here’s more moral idiocy from Giles Fraser–his applauding Muslims for refusing to condemn Jihad terrorism:
“I applaud British Islam’s refusal to bow to the establishment”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2017/jul/06/i-applaud-british-islam-refusal-to-bow-to-the-establishment
He says, “I’m not asked to demonstrate that I am not a radical, or prove that I am an asset to society. So why should Muslims be pressed to do so?”
Of course, he never mentions that Muslims are slaughtering Britons and other Infidels and trying to impose Shari’ah law on us.
Michael Copeland says
“Allah, strike…the Christians … kill them to the last one” – prayer on Al-Aqsa TV
https://gatesofvienna.net/2020/02/islams-agenda-muslims-speak/
Franklin P. Uroda says
There are various reasons why formerly Catholic Churches are now used for other purposes. Saddens me.
Nan says
Hagia Sophia was an Orthodox church. I want my basilica back.
cynthia curran says
The first Hagia Sophia built by Constantine was a basilica. This was the third built by Justinian and a new architecture style.
Westman says
Here is a message to Turkey distinctly explaining why it will never have an unchallenged claim on Hagia Sophia: In the immortal words of that great statesman who declared that “America was no longer a Christian nation”, “You didn’t build that! “
mortimer says
Giles Fraser apparently knows almost nothing about the history of jihad and nothing about Islamic supremacism, Dhimmitude or the doctrine of Al Walaa wal Baraa … all core components of the package of Islamic encroachment on freedom.
The purpose of jihad is to remove the human rights and civil liberties of women and ‘others’.
Giles Fraser is tragically naïve and smugly uninformed. With leaders like him, the churches’ subjugation under Islam is guaranteed.
mortimer says
Would Giles Fraser be pleased if Canterbury Cathedral were seized and turned into a mosque?
gravenimage says
Here he is, saying that “Hagia Sophia is for prayer, not pictures”. (This is a reference to its being a museum over the past hundred years or so).
https://unherd.com/thepost/the-hagia-sophia-is-for-prayer-not-pictures/
Apparently he does not care if those ‘prayers’ are for the slaughter of Christians and Jews and other Infidels.
John Collins says
Would Giles Fraser be pleased if he were seized and turned into a dhimmi? After all, there’s not much difference between dhimmi and dimwit, is there?
Michael Copeland says
“Allah, strike…the Christians ..count them and kill them to the last one” – Al-Aqsa TV
https://gatesofvienna.net/2020/02/islams-agenda-muslims-speak/
curious george says
Giles Fraser, a liberal Anglican, says he “cannot but applaud” radical Islamic president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s “desire to return this once holy place back to a mosque.”
“Christians should be delighted” if Hagia Sophia reverts to being a mosque because “Muslims are our brothers and sisters with whom we share a faith in the living God,” Fraser argues.
………………………………………..
No surprise here, Christianity has been in decline for decades. The exception is found in countries where Christians are suffering severe persecution. I have heard reports, from people with boots on the ground, that in countries like China and Iran, large numbers of people are converting to Christianity.
Here is another depressing report, this one closer to home:
Notre Dame ‘thrilled’ to hire pro-abortion homosexual Pete Buttigieg. Faithful Catholics dismayed
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/notre-dame-thrilled-to-hire-pro-abortion-homosexual-pete-buttigieg-faithful-catholics-dismayed
GreekEmpress says
curious George,
Thank you for posting that link. While I was reading it, I found a petition, which I signed, in support of Father Ted Rothrock
who was suspended for speaking out against Black Lives Matter’s tenets that oppose church values.
curious george says
GreekEmpress,
You’re welcome.
We are living in very troubling times.
“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.”
Romans 8:28
MansaMusa says
My people perish for lack of knowledge.
curious george says
MansaMusa,
Amen.
Hosea 4:6
Rufolino says
Gay people are beginning to feel more and more unwelcome on this site. I sometimes wonder for how long I can keep reading the prejudices sometimes on view.
Ironical, considering that one of the purposes of Jihad Watch is to point out the uncivilized and unacceptable hatreds expressed by Islam, which include the murderous hatred of gay people.
James Lincoln says
Rufolino,
I have been reading Jihad Watch now for about five years.
Gays are certainly welcome on this website.
Nearly all of the readers see homosexuality as a “nonissue” in the fight against jihad.
And gays should be among the strongest anti-jihadists.
Wellington says
Seconded, James.
Rufolino says
Thanks James. However, gays are not always welcome to some posters on this site.
(My judgement is coloured by not living in a tolerant country. Italy is a largely anti-gay culture, something created by the Catholic Church in its enormous hypocrisy. The biggest gay community in the world isn’t in San Francisco, it’s the Vatican.)
Wellington says
“Gay people are beginning to feel more and more unwelcome on this site.”
Where gay people, Rufolino, would be really unwelcome, to the point of lethal “unwelcomeness,” would be in any Muslim-majority nation. Ponder that for a little while.
Moreover, though myself agnostic, I can understand why a devout Christian would have significant reservations about any gay or lesbian ACTING upon their sexual inclination because both in the Old Testament (e.g., in Leviticus 18:22) and New Testament (e.g., Romans 1: 24-26) the prohibition against gay and/or lesbian “activity” is crystal clear, including the death penalty for those who do so, never mind not being able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Frankly, I don’t see how any practicing Jew or Christian can conclude that same-sex relations are OK with the Judeo-Christian deity. And there is also the factor that most everyday we are pummeled by the MSM with yet another story about gays, transgender people, there being 17 (or is it 37?) genders, cis-gender nonsense, bathroom rights, etc. Enough already.
Speaking for myself, the only sexual activities I think are truly wrong AND criminal are sex with children and non-consensual sex, but I can understand why many people cannot endorse same-sex relations and we now live in a pc/mc era where ANY reservation about same-sex relations will open one up to charges of bigotry. For instance, while I support gay rights in sundry ways, I think gay marriage is ridiculous. The ancient Greeks certainly were unusual in tolerating, even promoting, same-sex relations, but they kept marriage confined to one man and one woman. So, guess I’m a bigot as well as, treated in the aggregate, all of ancient Greek society.
There is an intellectual tyranny that is manifesting itself more and more in the West whereby any disagreement with the Left (and I understand that many on the Right endorse gay marriage) will insure you are demonized mercilessly. The entire phenomenon of gay rights serves as a case in point. A century ago gays were horribly discriminated against and now those who have any reservation about gays are being subjected to horrible discrimination. It was wrong a century ago and it is wrong now. I don’t want anyone telling me how to think and act lest I be labeled some kind of hater. I utterly reject this, indeed I have a contempt for those who think you must accept their views on matters or else.
Rufolino says
Thanks for your colourful opinions Wellington.
I happen to be a Christian so I’ve had to confront the gay issue within myself.
In my heart, in my guts, God is a being of love, not hatred and rejection. I look to the loving example of Jesus alone.
I agree completely with your listed prohibitions on behaviour.
My intuition tells me that in the end, sex will cease to matter, desire will evaporate. What does matter, more than anything, is love, and love will never die.
Wellington says
Respectfully disagree, Rufolino. Love is not enough. Jesus was forgiving but his forgiveness was conditioned on one sinning no more (or at least making every attempt to sin no more). A person can BE gay or lesbian and this is not sinful but ACTING upon this sexual inclination most certainly is per Christian doctrine as I have been able to discern it. Same with a heterosexual who has sex outside of marriage or commits adultery.
In fact, though I don’t mean to be too harsh, asserting that love is so paramount that it “conquers” all else is gooey, sentimentalized Christianity and not Christianity as laid bare in the New Testament. Christianity holds a person to a very high bar and love alone won’t cut it as I have interpreted this religion. Love might be most important but it’s not all that is required to enter the Christian Heaven. Far from it actually.
gravenimage says
Why would Gay people feel unwelcome here, Rufolino? Do you think that pointing out that supremacist Muslims are turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque somehow hurts Gay people?
In fact, Jihad Watch regularly runs stories on the persecution of Gay people in Dar-al-Islam. Here are just a few:
“UK: Muslim Uber driver who plotted Gay Pride jihad attack and “gun and knife rampage” jailed for life, i.e. 25 years”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2020/07/uk-muslim-uber-driver-who-plotted-gay-pride-jihad-attack-and-gun-and-knife-rampage-jailed-for-life-i-e-25-years
“UK: Three gay men identified as murder victims in Libyan migrant’s stabbing spree in Reading”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2020/06/uk-three-gay-men-identified-as-murder-victims-in-libyan-migrants-stabbing-spree-in-reading
“Gambia: Muslim leader says ‘We rather die in poverty than to allow protection of gay rights in the country’”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2020/06/gambia-muslim-leader-says-we-rather-die-in-poverty-than-to-allow-protection-of-gay-rights-in-the-country
There are many more. And if you think that Erdogan just persecutes heterosexual Christians, you are mistaken:
https://ilga.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Shadow-report-16.pdf
In fact, Erdogan persecutes Christians and Gay people–and women, and Jews–all on the basis of Islam.
Rufolino says
Wellington,
You would make a good Catholic: “it is not sinful to be gay, but it is sinful to act on it.”. That is the Pope’s position precisely (in public). It’s a whitewash of the Catholic Church’s actual rejection of homosexuality.
“The Christian doctrine I have been able to discern”.
This “Christian doctrine” (as generally discerned), derives in the main from a few censorious remarks of St.Paul, and from hideous prehistoric condemnations in the Book of Leviticus.
Jesus himself never mentioned homosexuality. His disciple John’s devotion appears to have had a homosexual ingredient which Jesus did not reject. He is said to have “loved” John, who laid his head on Jesus’s chest (very “gooey” !) If Jesus had 12 disciples, by the law of averages, at least one of them was gay.
St Paul was a Pharisee and had the mentality of a rigorous Pharisee. He would probably have agreed with you in calling my view of love “gooey and sentimentalised”.
But love is the strongest force in the Universe, and Paul himself said it. Love comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes. There is nothing gooey or sentimentalised about it (except sometimes in film-noir movies.)
Best regards.
Michael Copeland says
Memo to the “controversial theologian”………
“My religion doesn’t tolerate other religion. It doesn’t tolerate”,
“The only one law …anywhere… has to be Islam” –
cleric Abu Bakr, in Australia.
FYI says
Hagia Sophia means Holy Wisdom : a concept lost on muslims as allah MISSED the concept of the Holy Spirit[just as he did the Golden Rule,the point of the Decalogue and the Torah,the essential role of the Jews,the importance of the 2 chief commandments,the point of Jesus and the Gospel etc]
Theologians should note that In koran 5:116 we see allah’s spectacular misunderstanding of the Doctrine of the Trinity.allah thinks Christians believe it consists of MARY,Jesus and allah in a polytheism of gods.
MARY is NOT in the Trinity!
Notice that the Holy Spirit is MISSING in islam.
So the muslims will be ‘praying’ in a former church dedicated to the very Wisdom that the koran and its ‘scholars’ completely missed.
Jesus Christ will always have the last laugh because if muslims knew about the Hagia Sophia and the gift of wisdom associated with it they would ABANDON islam
{if you are an ex-muslim who is now a christian and who knows what the Holy Spirit is,you will surely get this…}
The koran shows the ABSENCE of the Holy Spirit{which is why it is full of errors}
The Bible shows the PRESENCE of the Holy Spirit {but you would need the Holy Spirit to discern this}muslim scholars don’t get that but then they don’t get the concept of Hagia Sophia:if they did they would leave islam.
To Theologians..
Why is the Holy Spirit MISSING in islam?
If allah is all knowing how come he completely misunderstands Christian Theology?
see koran 5:116
Explain WHY the Golden Rule is MISSING in islam?
islam’s Doctrine of Hate .al walaa wal baraa is in violation of the 2nd chief commandment of YHWH {lev19:18}How did allah miss this CHIEF law and teaches the OPPOSITE {see koran 5:51 ‘take not the Jews and christians for friends”}?
How did allah MISS Genesis 1:27{people made in the spiritual image of God}given the koran teaches that Jews and Christians are the ‘WORST of created beings’ {koran 98:6} and thus cannot be equal to muslims,{“the best community”koran 3:110} in islam’s koranically sanctioned religious Apartheid system?
MansaMusa says
2Thessalonians 2:10 shows The West in under a “strong delusion”
FYI says
“And so God sends the power of error to work in them so they believe what is false”
This is what you see especially in the zealous convert to islam.
The koran teaches what is false.They choose to follow the lie and in so doing condemn themselves.
What is happening in the World in relation to Christianity is clearly explained in the prophetic teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles.
{Matthew 24:4-14,2 Timothy 3 :1-8.Go see..}
The West is under the leadership of the corrupt Lefty Globalist elites and is undermined by useless,craven,cowardly dhimmi “christian” leaders like pope francis:it is all in line with Christian Prophecy.The forces of antichrist{..islam,militant atheism,false christians,communists and lefties..}are having their day now but you see there will be something coming next that will eliminate ALL forces of antichrist called the Parousia.
But the World will have to reap what it has sown{again,explained clearly in Biblical Prophecy which WILL come to pass regardless of what Leftys/Globalists/militant atheists/muslims/dhimmi christians{‘the foolish bridesmaids’} think}
David Longfellow says
Another useful idiot. Stalin would approve.
owensgate says
This “christian” is the very personification of the “christian” subject of Matthew 25:41. Willfully leading his flock into perdition, and saying “Look at the wonderful Works I’m doing”. The “Catholic” Church is NOT Christian, not by a darn sight.
Nan says
First, the theologian quoted is Anglican; second, Jesus Himself founded the Catholic church; third, Hagia Sophia was an Orthodox Basilica.
owensgate says
OK, we can add to the list of non-Christian “organized” religions, “Anglican” is certainly not Christian, no Christian Church installs Lesbian pastors and supports the Sins of immorality as does the Anglicans, Lutherans, Baptist, just about whatever. As for Hagia Sophia, it was the Eastern Orthodox that “broke away” from the sinful excesses of Rome – not that they were much better. Roman Catholicism may or may not have been founded by Peter, but Satan took it over almost immediately. The history of the Papacy is a litany of scandalous sinful behavior, murder, adultery, theft, greed, corruption, and even blasphemy. The Pomp and Pageantry of their rituals, the papal “costumes” and scarlet robes of its hierarchical underlings practically screams “not Christian – stay away”.
A faithful son of St. Dominic says
What perfect little sect do you belong to with self-righteous pastors with feet of clay and minds narrower than the eye of a camel that’s either hiding its own dirty laundry or will be producing tons of its own by the next generation? The Church breathes with two lungs and the ancient sacramental churches still belong to the one, true God. God never expected Israel never to fall, only to repent and reconcile and return to God after it did, time and again … with God forgiving and renewing, time and again.. And this has also been the history of the Church, the New Israel, and will ever remain so until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
gravenimage says
So owensgate, you consider most Christians to be non-Christians?
gravenimage says
Nan, not all Anglicans are like this.
GreekEmpress says
Mr. Spencer really nailed it when he said the useful idiots couch their capitulation in the guise of being broad minded. Sir, I truly admire your mastery of turning a phrase.
FYI says
For Theologians..
koran 4:157 The denial of the crucifixion of Christ
koran 4:171 the denial of the Trinity[which is also the denial of the Holy Spirit]
koran 5:116 allah’s EPIC THEOLOGY fail:Mary is not in the Trinity
allah does not permit final penitence{koran 4:18}that is contrary to the Judeo-Christian Biblical God.
allah teaches the OPPOSITE to lev19:18 so there is no ‘love thy neighbor’ in islam since infidels are classed as the ‘WORST of created beings’koran 98:6 and thus not equal to muslims.
For the superduper ‘advanced students’ of islam:yazir Qadhi’s boys with their Krell minds as they ponder all the ‘HOLES IN THE NARRATIVE’ of the holey koran.
Explain how..
1.allah MISSED the Golden rule
{Defined as being ‘the MEANING of the law of Moses and the teachings of all the prophets”Matthew 7 v 12.Isn’t it odd allah MISSED the importance of that?}
2.Gets Christian Theology completely WRONG {koran 5:116}by insisting MARY is in the Trinity:MARY has nothing to do with the Trinity{which is a monotheism,not a polytheism as allah and his muslims idiotically believe}
3.”WE bestowed upon {Jesus} the Gospel” {koran 5:46}.Yes,tell us how Jesus had the Gospel….when it came AFTER the time of Jesus..and Jesus was not involved with and was not responsible for the Gospel as it was written by apostles empowered by the Holy Spirit{that essential aspect of Divine Wisdom that allah MISSED}
4.Tell us WHO allah’s enemy is ..and WHY is it a MAN called ‘the king of kings’?
{Sahih Muslim vol 5 hadith #5611}
5.”And verily WE gave unto Moses the scripture” koran 2:87
If allah only communicates in Arabic{koran 41:44} then explain WHY the Torah was revealed in… HEBREW and not in Arabic.
6.HOW did allah forget the name of God is YHWH:it isn’t ‘al lah’?
7.The Jews are to ‘be despised and hated'{koran 2:65}YET in koran 45:16 allah confirms the prophethood was given to the Children Of Israel.
According to the Gospel{which allah CONFIRMS koran 3:3 and which he claims he gave to Jesus koran 5:46}it is revealed that Jesus Christ is JEWISH{John 4:22} and it is ‘from the Jews that salvation comes’.Explain how allah forgot about the key role given to the Jews.
8.To be in the Bible one must come from the Children of Israel:allah confirms this in koran 45:16 where he insists the prophethood was given to the Jews.
muhammed is not from the children of Israel:it is impossible he is in the Bible as he is NOT QUALIFIED to be {koran 7:157}……isn’t that odd?
CogitoErgoSum says
The man’s greatest mistake is thinking that Christians and Muslims worship the same god. They do not. Once you start believing the two gods are the same, you become lost in confusion and contradiction.
John Collins says
Giles Fraser: What’s that?
Young child: It’s a dollop of ice cream I dropped.
Giles Fraser: And that?
Young child: It’s a dog turd.
Giles Fraser: So, they’re basically the same thing, right?
Donovan Nuera says
Maybe this kumbaya Giles guy (whose sect of Christianity was started by a power-hungry multiple wife murdering super-obese jerk king with frontal brain damage from a bad jousting accident that changed his personality) will let Edgodan or the mooofti of Istanbul rape HIS wife on the altar of the Hagia Sophia to commemorate Mehmet’s conquest and subsequent rape of the daughters of Byzantine noble families on the altar??? I mean, it’s all good and ecumenical, right?
lehi48 says
Thank you for explicitly bringing it, to the table. I am not Christian or Muslim but from my perspective all these accolades and gestures of ecumenical peace and acceptance towards the other one, ALWAYS seems to be a one-way street affair, Christians towards Muslims. You NEVER see Muslims compromising the meaning of Islam or watering down the message of Mohammed evoking the Word of Allah. It is the Absolute literal word from the Quran along with the Hadith and Sunnah as it was written. It would be akin to our Religion guided by only the Torah without the complete Rabbinical interpretation of the Talmud, Shulchan Arioch. It would be a totally different religion than it is today. On the other, hand a Muslim jettisoned from 800 AD 1000AD 1200AD 1600AD to the present would feel 100% in accordance with the Islam practiced today because it’s basically the same. Christianity is not the same nor is Judaism the same. The dilemma arises when the Leaders of the latter two religions take their secular beliefs and confuse them with their religious beliefs and try to force the round peg into the square hole.
The basic questions: is Islam compatible with Christianity or with Judaism in the modern World? Are the goals of Islam consistent with the goals of Christianity and Judaism both is Spirit and in reality on the ground? By spoken word of the Imams in the Mosques, by the teachings taught in the Madrassas, the example shown in Iran and Saudi Arabia to any change to the educational syllabus and the general beliefs of Muslims whether it be in Indonesia or NYC: I’m of the opinion that in general Islam is inflexible, intolerant of change, unaccepting of other religions unless Taqiyya is used to mask to true tactical reasons for it. The pendulum for Christianity has swung so far and compromising (especially the Catholic Church) that just one more red line in the sand to be crossed, will accommodate their Masters in Jedda or Teheran, they so believe! They would move rivers and mountains theologically to reach agreement with them. The War with Islam from the Muslim’s point of view, is less on the field of actual battle than the goal of converting your mind and soul in the Church, Synagogue, or other House of Worship to Islam and this is in the Quran as an obligation of every Muslim. They are doing a damn good job in my opinion by first going after persons of influence. John Brennan, Barak Obama his WH spokesperson Ms Huff, Leaders in England, and France. I’d be remiss not to mention Ex Stasi Officer, Chancellor Angela Merkle beloved by the Hijrah Circle for making all things possible. Does anyone see a Western non-Muslim community accepted and living in a Muslim Country. Of course not, because it would be against their immigration laws.
Dapto says
Can’t wait till they say and do the same about the Vatican and make that bastion of anti Christians into a Mosque also.
lehi48 says
No joke. When they become the majority population of Italy or the major political power broker there, they’ll try. If they fail, they’ll maintain the effort until they succeed. ie perhaps they’ll claim that for the Vatican to be fair they should open up and give them just a room or area to pray. Then they’ll claim that the area is too small and they need another larger room and then another for the women and so forth. Then they’ll work their true agenda.
Wellington says
No Christian who really knows their faith and knows Islam could possibly applaud Hagia Sophia becoming a mosque. This so-called theologian is an ignoramus and a rather despicable ignoramus at that. Appalling.
gravenimage says
+1
James Lincoln says
Wellington,
You are correct, he is a despicable ignoramus…
Kepha says
Agreed.Has anyone checked to see what Giles Fraser believes about the person and work of Jesus Christ, the Holy Trinity, and the Bible? It could very well be that he might not be a Christian in any biblical sense at all. Not judging at this point, but I’ve found that with many of these Islamophilic “Christian theologians”, their acceptance of historical Christian doctrines is often very shaky.
Archange says
You are badly mistaken. Replace the twisted “history” sold to by some poor, deceived soul, and replace the sordid lie with the beautiful truth. As Cynthia Curran points out: “The first Hagia Sophia built by Constantine was a basilica. This was the third built by Justinian and a new architecture style.” The Emperor Constantine started out as a pagan, but converted to Christianity subsequent to a miracle. He was greatly honored by Christians as their portector and was baptized before he died, peacefully, in bed.
Wellington says
Yes, Archange, Shastra is mistaken as he invariably is.
The present Hagia Sophia was built by orders of Emperor Justinian I who reigned from 527-565. Previously there had been two Christian churches built on the same site, the first by Constantius II (337-361), a son of Constantine the Great, and the second church on this site was ordered constructed during the reign of Theodosius II (408-450). I would add that the first church was built for a Christian emperor who accepted the Arian concept of Jesus, which heresy was condemned at the Council of Nicaea in 325 and which Constantine the Great presided over.
Archange says
Thanks for refining the answer. Although Constantine leaned toward Arianism (in a confusing time when even many bishops wavered or were caught up with it), by the grace of God, he did not intervene when the Holy Spirit defeated Arianism at Nicaea.
gravenimage says
Christian theologian: “Christians should be delighted” at Hagia Sophia becoming a mosque
……………………..
Giles Fraser is a bloody idiot at best.
Here’s what he just said on Twitter:
Islam threatens British way of life. … Well if that means Islam threatens our instrumental rationality and selfish individualism, then jolly good.
https://twitter.com/giles_fraser/status/1097163532590825472?lang=en
In other words, he hates reason and any concern for the rights of the individual. Well, he’s right that Islam threatens these Western values.
Yogi says
And this freaking EU. Wants Turkey to join European Union!!!, absolutely disgrace …
gravenimage says
Actually, Yogi, these talks have stalled–it doesn’t look as though Turkey will be joining the EU:
“Macron tells Erdogan: No chance of Turkey joining EU”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42586108
One bit of welcome sanity.
Giacomo Latta says
”no less an authority than the pope himself”
Obviously, you aren’t try too hard to convince anybody of anything.
James Lincoln says
From the BBC:
“Pope Francis confined himself to a few words on the issue: “My thoughts go to Istanbul. I think of Santa Sophia and I am very pained.”
Two short sentences, and no action. He immediately started smiling again, as if nothing had happened. And he will continue to advocate for the islamization of Western Europe.
The “pope” is a damn disgrace – and should be forcefully removed.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53371341
SAFI says
Although I agree that Francis is a disgrace to his Office it was kind of expected of him, whereas I’m even more disappointed by everyone’s else’s pathetic reactions, especially Russia’s timid announcement (the self-proclaimed “Third Rome” who often likes to pretend to be the champion of orthodox Christianity) and that of all the other orthodox churches and Patriarchates most of which did not bother to say anything at all.
PS. I hope Francis is aware that the Hagia Sophia also used to be (arguably, depending on whether one accepts Roman Catholicism’s claims) a Catholic Church up until 1054 AD (the generally accepted “official” date of the Schism) and again for a few decades under the crusader “Latin Empire” and perhaps even a third time just before the ottoman conquest given that an Act of Union between the eastern and western Churches had been agreed at the Council of Ferrara-Florence (although never truly implemented)
GreekEmpress says
Thank you for the link, Mr. Lincoln. I hadn’t heard that news. Very surprising though, that he said anything at all—-
Archange says
What a damnably vague statement. An Islamist could just as have easily read that as “It pains me that the Greek Orthodox are being so divisive and stubborn.”
SAFI says
Next up a turkish court will rule that Ataturk had no right to abolish the Caliphate and thus Erdolf will be proclaimed the new Caliph of Islam (with full authority to declare offensive jihad which according to canonical Islam only the Caliph has).
I’m sure Giles Fraser will be delighted when Turkey goes full islamist
SAFI says
Somebody should inform Giles Fraser that there’s still a few thousand Greek Orthodox and other Christians left in Istanbul. I’m sure they’d be delighted if “this once holy place” went back to being a Church (its actual purpose). But I’m sure this radically islamophobic idea could never in a million years cross Giles Fraser’s mind… and if such a thing happened I really doubt he’d be “delighted” or tell muslims to rejoice, because after all we “worship the same God” (yeah right!)
Kepha says
Giles Fraser probably believes that the Christian populations of the Middle East and Turkey are the result of “colonialist” British and French proselytizing.
gravenimage says
It would not surprise me, Kepha. I have absurdly seen this claim made about Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, and many other parts of the historically Christian Middle East and Mahgreb.
OLD GUY says
If you do not stop the invasion of islam they will dominate the world, enslaving and killing all non followers. Just look at their history.
gravenimage says
Erdogan has already said this this a harbinger of renewed Islamic conquest.
Truth Triumps says
Unfortunately, Religious Teaching of Christians is an Eyewash without Substance and whatever is there, that is Beating Around the Bush. Consequently Many Christians do not Know whether God Really Exist or Not.
Christians and Muslims Worship same God shows the Ignorance of those Blabber like that.
If the God was same, during Islamic Conquest, why Many Christians were Butchered and why Many are Being Butchered by Muslims?
Basic Islamic Teaching is ‘No God but Allah’. Does Any High IQ is needed to know Both are Not Same?
For Persons of Minimum and More Common Sense, what are Seen Convince Better than 3rd Party Interpretations.
God is Not Shown by Any Religion or Any Individual. God’s Existence and Might is Exhibited through Miracles.
Allah’s Might is Exhibited through Fans, who Butcher, innocents, Labeling Inferior Creatures, shouting Allahu Akbar.
It is a shame that Persons who do Not Know who is Jesus and what is Christianity are made Scholars. Neutral Observer has to see whether such Persons are Real Scholar or Trojan Horses of Anti Christians.