My latest at PJ Media:
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s decision Friday to convert Hagia Sophia, the foremost cathedral in Christendom for nearly 1,000 years, to a mosque has been condemned the world over, but it has also garnered applause from at least one Christian theologian, the liberal Anglican Giles Fraser, who joins the multitudes of other Christian leaders who believe that appeasement and self-abnegation, even unto utter self-destruction, is the way forward for the Church.
Fraser, who is, — you will not be surprised to learn — a former columnist for The Guardian, that is, another useful idiot in a seemingly endless series, said: “Now I am no particular fan of Turkish leader, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, but when it comes to his desire to return this once holy place back to a mosque, I cannot but applaud.” He even asserted that “Christians should be delighted” by this development, for “the curse of secularism will be lifted and this holy space will return once again to the praise of Almighty God. Allahu Akbar.”
Fraser can blithely scream “Allahu Akbar” because he has no idea of the implications of the phrase. It does not mean “God is great,” its most common translation in the English-language media. It is, rather, the aggressive declaration that Allah and Islam are dominant over every other form of government, religion, law, or ethic, which is why Islamic jihadists in the midst of killing infidels so often shout it.
One primary purpose of shouting it is to “strike terror in the hearts of the enemies of Allah.” Chief 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta made this explicit in his letter to himself before carrying out his jihad mission: “When the confrontation begins, strike like champions who do not want to go back to this world. Shout, ‘Allahu Akbar,’ because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers.” This is why the Fort Hood jihad killer, Nidal Malik Hasan, shouted it as he shot thirteen Americans in November 2009, and why so many other jihadis have used it essentially as an announcement that non-Muslims are about to die.
But Fraser is not concerned about that, because he thinks his god is the same as the god of Islam in any case. “And to those Christians who believe that Muslims and Christians worship something different,” he says, “I offer no less an authority than the Pope himself. Ahead of his trip to Morocco last year, the Pope tweeted: ‘I am coming as a pilgrim of peace and fraternity. We Christians and Muslims believe in God, the Creator and the Merciful, who created people to live like brothers and sisters, respecting each other in their diversity, and helping one another in their needs.’”
Fraser adds: “This view goes back to the Second Vatican Council, where it was affirmed that Muslims, ‘together with us adore the one, merciful God.’”
Giles Fraser has offered an argument from authority, which is the weakest of all arguments: Christians and Muslims worship the same God because Pope Francis and the Second Vatican Council say so. In reality, there are immediate and obvious differences: the Trinity, the Crucifixion, and the divinity of Christ. Beyond that, Islam in its traditional theological formulations denies free will, the nature of good and evil, and the nature of the deity.
There are numerous passages of the Qur’an, as well as indications from Islamic tradition, to the effect that not only can no one believe in Allah except by his will, so also no one can disbelieve in him except by his active will. “And to whoever God assigns no light, no light has he” (24:40).
There is much more. Read the rest here.
Benschachar says
We should be “happy” that a beautiful Christian building is being converted to serve members of a cult that worships a pedophilic Arab warlord?
SAFI says
Mehmet II the Conqueror was also a pedophilic warlord (just not Arab)
Mike Hughey says
But Jesus isnt. But Muhammed was.
Robert Porter says
Mehmet was a Turk, not an Arab.
mortimer says
Hagia Sophia is the HOME CHURCH of 260 million Orthodox Christians. It has been STOLEN and not given back.
It belongs to Orthodox Christians as much as the Kaaba belongs to Muslims and that Sree Padmanabhaswamy temple in Kerala belongs to Muslims and that St. Peter’s belongs to Roman Catholics.
The Orthodox patriarch Bartholomew said he was ‘Saddened and shocked’.
Give it back, Erdogan. Do the right thing.
mortimer says
APOLOGIES TO HINDUS … should read
“that Sree Padmanabhaswamy temple in Kerala belongs to HINDUS … “
Rod says
Ever been to Cordoba, mortimer? Be sure to visit the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Assumption, and see what Christians can do to desecrate fabulous Muslim architecture. All for the glory of their god, of course.
And ask the people of Iran what Bonespurs threatened to do to their most beautiful mosques. For the glory of the USA, I suppose.
Jake2169 says
Islamic appeaser.
SAFI says
Ever been to Turkey Rod? Be sure to visit the dozens of ex-church “mosques” or even better the hundreds of abandoned and ruined armenian churches all over Turkey. They are quite a sight to behold https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eck9q27XgAAUUFw?format=jpg&name=medium
Everytime Muslims from Erdolf to ISIS do this kind of thing, muslim apologists and their co-allah-borators be like “but-what-about-that-Cordoba-mosque (actually originally a church) which the spaniards converted 800 years ago. Also every other waking moment hey-look-what-those-evil-christians-did-to-that-mosque(former Church)-in-Cordoba! Always the same retarded talking points from the muslim taqiyyaists and their western co-allah-borators, trying to prove that the “islamophobes” are hypocrites but instead only managing to prove their own overflowing hypocrisy time and again
andra says
@Safi
Well said. And I love the “co-allah-borators”.
Arthur Paul Potter says
But it was a Church before it was a Mosque before it was turned back to a Church.
mortimer says
Rod, you are proving my point and missing my point at the same time … quite a feat. Cordoba was INVADED as was Spain. Every Christian church in southern Spain was either destroyed or made a mosque. When the Spanish regained their country, they had no reason to believe in coexistence. Muslims do not practice co-existence.
The HS is the HOME CHURCH of Orthodoxy, just as the Kaaba is the home of Islam. You missed that, didn’t you? That’s why you compare an apple with an orange.
HS is no ordinary building.
“The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise: Muslims, Christians, and Jews under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain” by Darío Fernández-Morera, ISI Books, 376 pp., $29.95
mortimer says
To ‘Rod’, the fabulous ‘Muslim’ architecture was SPANISH architecture created by Spanish SLAVES of the Umayyad slave masters!
The so-called ‘Moorish’ arch was in use in Spain BEFORE the invasion of the Muslims.
Read this book, ‘Rod’.
“The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise: Muslims, Christians, and Jews under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain” by Darío Fernández-Morera, ISI Books, 376 pp., $29.95
mortimer says
To ‘Rod’, the Muslims destroyed a previous church and built the Cordoba mosque using CHRISTIAN SLAVES:
– a Visigoth church, the Basilica of Saint Vincent of Lérins, originally stood on the site. In 784 Abd al-Rahman I ordered the conversion of the church into a mosque and further construction, which was considerably expanded by later Muslim rulers. Córdoba returned to Christian rule in 1236 during the Reconquista, and the building was reconverted to a Catholic church, culminating in the insertion of a Renaissance cathedral nave in the 16th century.
THE BEAUTIFUL BASILICA OF ST VINCENT WAS STOLEN AND THEN TURNED TO RUBBLE BY THE UMAYYADS.
What do you say to that, ‘Rod’?
Or do you only have ONE arrow in your quiver? And you aren’t running away from debate, are you?
Sun says
Let me enlighten you on some history:
Originally, the Catholic Christian Basilica of Saint Vincent of Lérins, stood on the site of the cathedral. In 784, Abd al-Rahman I ordered the conversion of the church into a mosque. Many years later, the basilica was considerably expanded by his Muslim successors. Finally, in 1236 the building was reconverted to a Catholic church.
Sun says
Sorry, Mortimer and Safi, didn’t see that you already commented on Ron’s nonsense.
gravenimage says
Of course, “Rod” desperately hopes we don’t know that before it was a Mosque, that this was the site of the Visigothic Basilica of Saint Vincent of Lérins, turned into a Mosque by the Muslim invaders.
So his example of a Mosque turned into a Church is actually–surprise, surprise–about a Church turned into a Mosque.
Rod says
Thanks SAFI. Remind me, which Commandment condones “an eye for an eye”. Or was it the sermon on the mount? Or did I hear it somewhere else? Anyway, it’s clearly OK for Christians to desecrate mosques, like the Great Mosque of Cordoba, even if they did it in such a tasteless way, since ‘they’ do it to us.
Ever been to Iraq? I wonder how many mosques were destroyed by US bombs and missiles and artillery. But that’s different. They were probably packed full of WMDs, weren’t they? And the world’s Muslims would obviously understand that.
gravenimage says
I see that “Rod” is once again claiming that reclaiming your own country from Muslim conquest is “desecration”. Bad dhimmis!
Rod says
The Grand Mosque of Cordoba was “reconverted” to a Christian church.
Having been there, I think the word “desecrated” is more appropriate. The Christians were naive enough to leave behind enough of the glorious work of Moorish architects to demonstrate the true horror of what they did.
gravenimage says
So now “Rod” considers converting a Mosque back into a Christian Church to be “desecration”–because he lauds the savagery of Islam. *Ugh*.
Rod says
Hello mortimer
By your logic, doesn’t a large part of your country (perhaps all of it) “belong” to the indigenous peoples of North America?
STOLEN and not given back?
But that’s different. You are christians. They’re not. It’s just so simple when you apply common sense. Isn’t it!
Rod says
And again, were any of the Christian churches in that greatest polity the world has ever seen, built by BLACK SLAVES? I haven’t time to do the research, but my guess is YES, they were. Prove me wrong.
Of course a few other things, including the US economy over 200 years, were built by BLACK SLAVES, but again, christians have special privileges.
gravenimage says
Once again, “Rod” is pretending that the West never abolished slavery.
And far from building the American economy, it was much retarded wherever slavery was practiced. Despite what he would have you think, slavery is, in addition to all of its other horrors, a malign economic model.
Rod says
Sad truth is, gravy, that, however uneconomical (?) it was, (it took a long time for the old plantation owners to wake up, didn’t it, and they did seem to prosper exceedingly, and a savage war to convince them), slavery happened.
And endured for 200+ ugly years. Or are you telling me it’s not a horrible stain on your history, and that you can therefore freely vilify others for supporting it?
CogitoErgoSum says
The American Indians had no concept of ownership of land. To them it was like the sky. To their way of thinking no one could own the sky or the land. The land could be used by the tribe that was strong enough to keep the other tribes from using it. They would fight over the land and the right to use the land belonged to the tribe that was strongest. This was the way life was for them. For example, sometimes the Sioux would rule a swath of land and sometimes the Crow or Pawnee or whatever tribe was the strongest in the area would rule the land. Different locations had different tribes competing with each other. The whites from Europe followed this same rule. It was the established way of doing things for thousands of years even before the appearance of the Europeans in North America.
As for slavery, that was something that began before recorded history. It was the established way of doing things too. According to Wikipedia, the first recorded attempt to abolish slavery was in ancient Athens in the 6th century B.C. ( I would say they were white people.) But look at the map at the link to the Wikipedia article below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_abolition_of_slavery_and_serfdom#/media/File:Slavery_abolition.svg
Slavery was not abolished in Saudi Arabia until 1962, or in parts of Africa until as recently as 1960 and 1981. It’s actually made a comeback lately in Libya. The U.S. abolished slavery in 1865 but its demise in this country actually began in 1776 with the Declaration of Independence stating that all men were created equal. It took a civil war to get everyone on board with that but it did finally happen. The white people in North America actually abolished slavery before black people in Africa abolished it. I wonder why that happened the way it did?
gravenimage says
“Rod” wrote:
Sad truth is, gravy (sic), that, however uneconomical (?) it was, (it took a long time for the old plantation owners to wake up, didn’t it, and they did seem to prosper exceedingly, and a savage war to convince them), slavery happened.
………………….
Of course it happened. The idea that if someone opposes the atrocity of slavery today that they ergo support slavery in the past is grotesque calumny. Moreover, “Rod” knows that I have condemned slavery in all its forms here for years.
Yet more:
And endured for 200+ ugly years. Or are you telling me it’s not a horrible stain on your history, and that you can therefore freely vilify others for supporting it?
………………….
I myself referred to the horrors of slavery in my post of July 19 at 7:28 pm–so pretending that I do not condemn slavery makes no sense whatsoever.
So why does “Rod” continue to lie about our standing against slavery? Because in his apologia for Islamic slavery, he’s got nothing else.
Rod says
cogito, when I went to Sunday School, they forgot to teach me that “survival of the fittest” was a christian principle. Or perhaps it’s written into the US constitution that when you are among savages you can and should behave like a savage? Somehow, you’ve got the idea that stealing land (why buy it from the French, the Mexicans or the Russians if you can just help yourself to it?), forcibly relocating its occupants, and allowing millions of them to perish (you’ll see i’m being charitable here) is all OK. I’m curious to know who is disseminating this poisonous, utterly unchristian, and ludicrously irrational creed, but I can see that some Americans would be all too ready to embrace it.
As for slavery, your principle seems to be – lots of other people did it, way, way back, and some people are still doing it, so….what exactly? Perhaps America’s horrible heritage is really quite respectable? Or perhaps it would be OK for America to even today….no, you can’t be telling me that. Just what conclusion do you want me to reach?
As for “all men were created equal” “did finally happen”, I’ve been seeing lots of black Americans on my TV screen telling me that you’re mistaken. They have a dream.
Always amusing to see some Americans glossing over their own shameful past (and present), so that, with clear consciences, they can denigrate others for similar crimes, often committed much less recently. I suppose that to get full enjoyment from hating others, you must first be convinced of your own moral superiority.
JamesC. says
What can one say to such lunacy ? The C of E, like the Roman bunch, continues its head-long imitation of a group of lemmings as it plunges with furious abandon ever deeper into triviality, irrelevance & unbelief.
Let them die.
revereridesagain says
I’ve been atheist since I was 17 years old and I am thoroughly disgusted, outraged and pi$$ed off that this magnificent treasure of Western architecture has been handed over to one of the biggest gangs of ideologically motivated thugs on the planet, in violation of its original intent.
Giles Fraser can stuff his “delight” up his nose. I hate watching lying weasels win anything.
mortimer says
x 2
Brian Ozzy says
Exactly! Well said. Rod and the moron Giles Fraser are two of a kind.
Reziac says
Same here. I wonder how “delighted” this idiot would be if he had to live under Islamic conquest? Assuming, of course, that he could afford the jizya and wasn’t killed instead.
David Grisez says
I am not delighted in the fact that Hagia Sophia was turned into a mosque by Recep Tayyip Erdogan. I know that Erdogan would like to bring back a new form of the Ottoman Empire and by doing this Erdogan wants to show the supremacy of Islam.
Wellington says
Just another useful idiot. And the worst kind of useful idiot, i.e., a well-educated one—and thus demonstrating for the umpteenth time that education alone, without common sense, accurate knowledge and a well lubricated built-in crap detector, can make a person with a “superior” education not only ridiculous in their own right but, far worse, often an enabler of iniquity.
Education in isolation is NEVER enough. As exampled here.
curious george says
Wellington,
+1
………………………………..
One can have all the information in the world, however, without wisdom, knowledge and discernment, it’s just dust in the wind.
This is one more example of the downward spiral of Christianity. Sadly, the situation is only going to get a lot worse.
Batten down the hatches.
.
gravenimage says
+1
James Lincoln says
Wellington,
A well-educated person, whether they realize it or not, can be very influential – particularly with the young and impressionable. That education should also carry a sense of responsibility.
That’s why, as you have stated before, your “trilogy” it is so very important:
1. Accurate education/knowledge.
2. Common sense.
3. Enlightened moral code.
mortimer says
Agree with Wellington. Fraser’s blurt is idiotic. He is Leftist. Say no more.
Rufolino says
Fraser is the very image of many German theologians during the Third Reich.
mortimer says
Fraser reminds me of a certain leftist pope. At least Pope Francis was ‘sad’, though. I think Frank must have talked with Patriarch Bartholomew who was also ‘saddened and shocked’ by the take-over. They were both ‘sad’.
Fraser didn’t stick to the leftist script. Fraser won’t be popular with any Orthodox people he knows. They will all have some strong words for him.
Fraser does not ‘get it’.
Phil Copson says
Fraser and his fellow-travellers know full well the dangers of Islam; they just calculate that by pretending not to and assisting the spread of islam, that they will be spared.
Too cowardly to resist, their “insurance policy” is try to “have their cake and eat it” by siding with the aggressor whilst hoping someone else will fight them off.
mortimer says
Fraser has the spontaneous HIVE-MIND of Leftism. He promotes the narrative that Muslim worship must be ‘good’.
In fact, Fraser does not know that mullahs will CURSE CHRISTIANS in their prayers at Hagia Sophia … seventeen (17) times a day every day.
stressed eric says
Giles Frazer is just a leftwing shit stirring hack from a dirty lying filthy leftwing rag not fit to wipe my arse on now sucking up to Erdegan the thug and itinerat rug seller who even engineered his own coup sacrificing his own men a dirty lying thief worked as traitor to his own country buying oil soaked in blood from ISIS and scum like this Giles Frazier this the kind of press we have to put up with in the beleaguered UK now with rigged crooked Judges letting inBegum the Scum into this UK a terrorist an ISIS Daish pinup bint liar and a Muslima pig
AleX says
In Begum’s case, ‘muslima pig’ is a pleonasm.
Eli says
Muslims have taken over or destroyed many historical cathedrals, while people respond passively, fearfully, or ignorantly with looks of approval or disapproval. We have to continually clarify to people, that the Christian faith believes in the Trinity of the Father, Jehovah God, Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (HIs internal presence). The Bible is history from the beginning through ancient history and prohesy of things to come. Mohammed didn’t arrive until about 600 A. D., though some say the prophecy on Abraham’s illigitimate son, Ishmael, reveals, that his lineage were terrorists, as they now continue to be. Islam is a man made religion with sinful rewards of many virgins for those, who die for their Allah. The Quran or Koran, tells Muslims to kill the infidels, which are all the people who do not believe in Allah. So the religions are not the same, and shouldn’t be equated. Muslims are plotting political goals in their mosques, for world domination. The conflict will arise as they confront Communists, who are plotting for domination,also. Both are in anarchy in our government right now. Pray for President Trump to stand against the radicals in congress.
underbed cat says
Eli, agree once you read the Q book, you wonder how this isn’t known worldwide, so sharia law forbids discussion or criticism of Islam and backs it up with severe penalty.. it is referred to as hate speech or being racist”…and a warning if you speak critical of Islam you have no future….as Obama stated, “the future does not belong to those who slander the Prophet of Islam”, reveals he knew Islam well and practiced his faith by remaining silent and acting calm with a smile as his goal was reached. A misinformation campaign no one would dare to reveal or they must be called racist. Very clever.
gravenimage says
Christian Theologian Says Christians Should Be ‘Delighted’ at Hagia Sophia Becoming a Mosque
……………………..
Giles Fraser’s entire shtick is that it is better that Hagia Sophia be the site of prayers rather than picture-taking, as when it was a museum.
He does not appear to care that so many of those prayers are for the slaughter of Christians and other non-Muslims. What a tool…
SAFI says
Yep typical example of the “any faith is better than none” nonsense which seems to be rather prevalent in today’s islamophile Anglican Church establishment.
I guess he would have even preferred it to be a Temple to Satan over it being a “godless” Museum. He probably also thinks it’s a good thing London and the whole UK is being taken over by fundamentalist muslims who want to impose shariah law because hey, at least it’s not those freakin atheists! As you all know that would have been way way worse!..
Reziac says
I’m reminded that Baha’i, which preaches that all prophets are valid because it’s all the same God, started as a rather bloody Muslim heresy, and that there may be a good reason why most of the original writings (which they have from their prophets) have not been translated into Western languages.
gravenimage says
Exactly, SAFI–how grotesque is this?
Would these fools also be happy with sacrificing babies to Baal and the Aztecs cutting out the hearts of their enemies?
Michael Copeland says
“Mosque is the place of war. Out of mosques wars should proceed. Prophet had sword to kill people.”
Ayatollah Khomeini
https://gatesofvienna.net/2020/02/islams-agenda-muslims-speak/
GreekEmpress says
Like Mr. Spencer stayed:
“Capitulation guised in broad-mindedness”
One could substitute dhimmitude for capitulation as well.
GreekEmpress says
Should be stated—
jewdog says
Not to sound like a curmudgeon, but since I’m not a Christian I can definitely say that I’m not delighted that Hagia Sofia is a mosque. Bah, humbug! I hope they all get athlete’s foot when they take their shoes off.
gravenimage says
🙂
Agostino Armo Pellegrini says
And to those Christians who believe that muslims and Christians worship something different…~Fraser
The Christian and islamic gods are not the same. Islam teaches that allah is superior to all other gods and those who believe in other gods should be killed or subjugated. How can allah be the same as the Christian god he want’s to destroy? does god want to destroy himself and the millions of Christians he inspired through his son Jesus? I can’t accept such a ridiculous proposition, it’s absurd on its face. Further, Islam denies the literal crucifixion of Christ and his divinity, is that what Fraser thinks his Christian god believes? How can both religions be from the same eternal and immutable god when they contradict themselves at the core level? Is god a god of truth, or a confused liar? In islam the Christian Trinity is a form of blasphemy that makes you worthy of death. So the triune basis for salvation in one religion of god–Christianity–is the reason you’re worthy of death in another? Could this possibly be the same lovinggod? In islam the final judgment means all muslims go to heaven and all “infidels” go to hell. But in Christianity only Christian “infidels” go to heaven, as Jesus is the “way, the truth, and the life” [John 14:6]. How does Fraser reconcile these stark differences in the personality of god? God provides a revelation for one group–Christians, but then encourages a world of murderous divisiveness with a different set of doctrines that deny the first! Such a god would be incapable of saving himself from his own moral and intellectual deficiencies, I have zero faith in the idea that he could “save” humanity or be the source of all creation. For me these two religions provide no evidence that god even exists, it does however prove mankind’s ability to invent gods and their willingness to hate and kill for them.
Fraser and the pope are typical leftists who are perfectly willing to lie for a religion and people that has terrorized humanity for 1400 years. They are like bleating sheep who think they can soothe a world of muslim bigotry and hate with gentle words of appeasement. Muslims don’t believe that allah is the same as the Christian god, nor does allah himself think he’s the same, if he did he wouldn’t command the death or subjugation of Christians and other “unbelievers”:
…fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah… ~Allah, demon god of the muslims.
Fight those who do not believe in Allah…nor follow the religion of truth…~Allah, demon god of the muslims.
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”~Allah, demon god of the muslims.
Allah is clearly a demon-like character driven by bigotry and hate. And if the pope and Fraser truly think their Christian god is the same as allah then they worship a devil and are lost in spiritual darkness, and their untruthful teachings regarding islam should be discarded as propaganda for evil.
Seth says
This creature is several things, but what it is not, is a Christian. And the UK is awash with its kind.
DavidW says
I believe that Mr. Fraser will be very surprised when he dies and, instead of his expected reward, he ends up some place else. Maybe if he is lucky he will join Mohammed and the other jihadis in one of the levels of Hell (unless he wises up).
knightsstrength says
Do not forget to mention the Fourth Crusade with the sack of Constantinople so weakening it even more under Catholic rule for years, that with the decreased numbers the walls could not all be defended under Islam invasion. When one researches it deeply, it was no mistake but intent to take Constantinople (Istanbul)
Then again with the Crimea war when Orthodox Christian Russia wanted to take back Turkey that England, Sardinia, France and Ottoman Empire took us to the Crimea War, been part religious war for Jerusalem Catholics against Orthodox Christianity.
Hate how Queen Victoria had Abdul Karim Queen’s Munshi, also naming the Sultan Knight of the Garter, naming navel ship HMS Sultan. The reward was Cyprus been given to UK.
gravenimage says
The ugly debacle of the Fourth Crusade did not help–but Muslims had been attacking the Byzantine Empire for seven hundred years, weakening them all the time. I doubt in the end that the Fourth Crusade made much difference.
Britain and France did prop up the Ottoman Empire during the Crimean War–they believed that a fast-expanding Russia was more of a threat.
Reziac says
One has to wonder why they didn’t kick the Ottomans entirely back across the Strait when they had the chance… then and two world wars. I wonder how long before Erdogan makes good on his threat to completely flood Greece with migrants, and take it over without firing a shot?
#TakeBackConstantinople
mortimer says
Giles Fraser is apparently a Leftist, so he cannot hold back from endorsing the RED-GREEN AXIS OF EVIL.
I doubt Fraser has read the PRIMARY, FOUNDATIONAL LITERATURE of Islam, the SIRA, HADITHS and KORAN as well as the canonical commentaries and manuals of Sharia law, and yet, UNREAD AND UNSTUDIED in the matter of foundational Islam, Giles Fraser presents himself as an authority on Islam.
His blind hubris is preposterous.
Next, Giles Fraser will offer Christ Church, Canterbury as the next mega mosque? Would he also be DELIGHTED for that?
Does Giles Fraser talk to Orthodox Christians? They should talk to him and give him a big earful !
mortimer says
The Koran seems to have been synthesized primarily in order to attack the theological-political basis of the Byzantine Roman Empire.
The Koran is a frontal attack on practically ALL of Christianity’s essential doctrines that must be believed for salvation. The Koran is IDEOLOGICAL WARFARE against Christianity.
How can Fraser praise the CRUSHING of the home church of Orthodoxy? How can Fraser celebrate the expansion of propaganda against the core teachings of Christianity.
Giles Fraser is an uninformed and confused man.
The Hindu Kaffir says
Hagia Sophia is to Christians what Rama Mandir (Ayodhya) is to Hindus….
The Muslims have robbed allmost all religions of the world of their culture and traditions, and despite them being the foremost oppressors they get to play the victim card all the time, all over the world…sad reality of life…
Rod says
A Christian says converting a grand museum to a beautiful mosque (in a Muslim country) is a good idea. Robert Spencer, as usual attempting to make a mountain out of a barely visible molehill, is outraged at this uncontroversial expression of one man’s opinion. And his disciples, as usual, obediently howl in chorus at an event which is, and will remain to the rest of the universe, unremarked and utterly unimportant.
Meanwhile, a world leader who suggested that people inject themselves with disinfectant, allegedly causing a number of deaths, (apparently this is still occurring), escapes the punishment he deserves. Mr Spencer? Busy trawling the yellow press of Oslo, Johannesburg, and Kiev, desperate to find somebody else who said or did something of trivial importance, which will arouse his followers to the paroxysms of hatred which they so enjoy.
Read on Jihadwatchers. The real world is unaware of your existence and is the better for it.
Chrissie01 says
oh, yes. A grand museum. Of course.
BTW: The real world will soon crumble under your feet…Sir.
Jake2169 says
What a complete and utter load of drivel you come up with. You need to look for some help preferably within the psychiatric department of your local hospital. Or perhaps you feel the need to convert to Islam to save your soul. And for your information, Trump was asking an admittedly stupid question when he brought up the notion of injecting disinfectant. Try to get things into context, or maybe you work for some media rag?
Rod says
Sorry Jake, I can’t compete with intellectuals like you. And Trump.
SAFI says
It’s not a museum or even “a” Church you historically illiterate jerk. Nor is it the only “museum” or church this is happening to. Read this for a start maybe it’ll help you get a grasp. https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/16221/turkey-hagia-sophia-mosque
Rod says
Thanks again SAFI. I read your source with interest. Including this:
US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo stated:
“We urge the Government of Turkey to continue to maintain the Hagia Sophia as a museum, as an exemplar of its commitment to respect the faith traditions and diverse history that contributed to the Republic of Turkey, and to ensure it remains accessible to all”.
It was a museum when I saw it. Perhaps Mr Pompeo saw it too. So, two of us, and all the Turks. You seem to be outnumbered. But a few more moronic insults might even things up. Won’t hurt to try.
Giacomo Latta says
What is your obsession with the number ”one”, AntifaMan? This somewhat renowned Anglican capitulant is one person but is not the only one to have such an opinion. Why is not Robert Spencer, who is one person but not the only one to share his opinion, spared your horror of being ”one” person?
As for howling choruses, this particular website receives all sorts of opinions, and that is not counting your brain-dead drivel. Take a look at your own Antifa website. There is a lot more bleating on that site, even when compared to muslim websites. You want hate? Read the koran till your lips are good and tired.
gravenimage says
More apologia for Islamic aggression from that always appalling “Rod”. Nothing to see here, you ‘filthy Infidels’…
He hopes we have missed this:
“Erdogan: “Resurrection of Hagia Sophia” heralds “return of freedom to al-Aqsa,” revival of Islam Uzbekistan to Spain”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2020/07/erdogan-resurrection-of-hagia-sophia-heralds-return-of-freedom-to-al-aqsa-revival-of-islam-uzbekistan-to-spain
A clear admission from Erdogan that this is not just about “converting a grand museum to a beautiful mosque”, but is about violent Islamic conquest.
Assiddiq says
well you people are just forgetting history but to make things a little better i suggest you go through this
https://www.dailysabah.com/arts/tracing-ottoman-architecture-through-works-converted-into-churches/news/amp
gravenimage says
How *dare* the ‘filthy Infidels’ take back their own nations. huh?
This is how pious Muslims “think”.
No mention, either, that the Mosque in Sofia was built on the nunnery of the Rila Monastery.
In other words, this is like Cordoba another example of a Mosque turned into a Church, which is actually a story about a Church being turned into a Mosque.
Chrissie01 says
All that there is to gain is the contempt of the jihadis for such boot-licking…
It is a signal of weakness, of cowardice and lack of identity.
Jake2169 says
The very first time I saw Giles Fraser on TV I noticed straightaway that he simply wasn’t functioning on all cylinders! The guy has most definitely got a screw loose and no one should regard anything he says as sensible. There are lunatics, then there is Giles Fraser, a person who needs close supervision and constant care, preferably within a secure unit!!
terry sullivan says
turkey had 20% christians not that long ago–now its 2%
erdogan wants to be supreme leader of islam
gravenimage says
Yes–he wants to be the new Caliph. Even a lot of Muslims don’t want that.
And most of Turkey’s surviving Christians were wiped out in the Armenian Genocide a hundred years ago.
RichardL says
the guy is an idiot but he is helping our cause by giving this more attention. If Trump is re-elected, Erdolf will see his country thrown out of NATO and shunned by Russia. The economy will go even further south and his inevitable war in Iraq and Syria will end with him killing himself in the bunker of his palace.
Giacomo Latta says
”the curse of secularism will be lifted and this holy space will return once again to the praise of Almighty God”
This has been the attitude of many a non-secular type. In order to make sure their particular sect does not lose all its tax advantages they will throw their full support behind any Islamic cause. Don’t squeeze the heads of these fups if you don’t want to get dirty.
SAFI says
another must read article on the topic I just found https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/16221/turkey-hagia-sophia-mosque
Political Islam is on the offensive on many fronts. Its advocates have been flooding Europe with mosques. The “largest mosque in Europe” will be a Turkish one in Strasbourg. In Germany, Turkey controls 900 mosques out of a total of 2,400… Now, Islamists are converting Hagia Sophia into a mosque. They are not doing it only in their countries. In France, they have also asked for churches to be converted into mosques. In Turkey, meanwhile, Erdogan keeps refusing to give permission to build any new churches…
Erdogan, according to a French scholar of religions, Jean-Francois Colosimo… could not have chosen a better moment. For weeks, politicians and elites in the West have been tearing down monuments — either doing it themselves or silently watching the barbaric armies of Western self-hatred…
Double-standards now seem to be the norm as well…When Pope Benedict XVI in Regensburg asked Islam to renounce fanaticism and intolerance in 2014, the Muslim world again erupted in violence. When Israel, in 2017, installed metal detectors in a compound to protect sites holy to Muslims and Jews, Erdogan accused Israel of destroying the Islamic character of Jerusalem. Now, however, that Turkey is turning its most important formerly Christian monument into a mosque, there is no protest, only silence and mumbling, which are nothing but the soundtrack of the West’s submission to Islam
SAFI says
Erdogan could not have chosen a better moment. For weeks, politicians and elites in the West have been tearing down monuments — either doing it themselves or silently watching the barbaric armies of Western self-hatred
This is I think the most interesting point it makes… Could the recent oubreak of monument smashing madness (along with co-allah-borating theologians like that Fraser idiot) be what actually convinced Erdogan that now was the time to go ahad and do it, after seeing that the “West” is clearly not willing to defend its own heritage?
Rooster says
Religion has perverted Christianity. Thank God(of Abraham’s) that The Church is of no religion. What man sows so shall he reap!
Pray for peace but be prepared for war!
mortimer says
Look, R, we don’t do the ‘war’ thing. We impose sanctions. Islam cannot survive the dissemination of information about its lies and falsehoods. The internet is the war zone. It’s the IDEOLOGY, my friend.
tgusa says
“Pray for peace but be prepared for war!”
Rooster is right.
Just because we don’t want to do the war thing doesn’t mean the enemy wont go that far. IMO Globally they already have..I do agree with you on the Islam cannot survive the dissemination of information about its lies and falsehoods and the internet is the war zone philosophy.
We must conduct asymmetrical warfare if we intend to win.
OLD GUY says
Hagia Sophia belongs to the islamic muslims because they now control the government of Turkey. As always if Christians want it back or want their right to practice Christianity in Turkey they are going to have to fight and defeat the muslim dictatorship that is now ruling Turkey. That most likely won’t happen from within as the Christians in Turkey are a small segment of the population. Basically speaking the Christians of the world have failed to stop the persecution of other Christians around the world and allowed Muslims to commit genocide of Christians world wide.
gravenimage says
Surviving Christians make up only .2% of the population in Turkey now.
tgusa says
Anyone who has a Bible and can read doesn’t need a Christian Theologian telling them anything and that goes double for hapless Christian Theologians.
Wellington says
With due exceptions for an occasional theologian who is well learned, has common sense and extra insight into certain Biblical passages, I agree with you. Trouble too is that a great many Christians hardly read the Bible—maybe a few passages here and there and that’s about it. As examples, what percentage of Christians have read all of Genesis and Job from the Old Testament and at least two of the four Gospels from beginning to end?
tgusa says
Agreed. To fully understand it is best to read the whole book from start to finish. But strangely, that applies to any book. What a surprise!
Tony46 says
Endorgan,please take the Vatican too…
Wellington says
Bad idea.
gravenimage says
Urging Muslims to take more of the West does not actually help things.