No one seems to consider the primary risk of bowing to death threats and violent intimidation: it only encourages more. Does Giuseppe Dalla Torre want Catholics of future generations to live on their knees, bowing to every threat? Apparently so.
“Jurist Parrots Pope: ‘Don’t Mock Muhammad,’” by Jules Gomes, ChurchMilitant.com, September 14, 2020:
ROME (ChurchMilitant.com) – A top Catholic jurist is echoing Pope Francis’ warning against caricaturing Muhammad, arguing that the Western tradition of satire must not be used to target people of other religious or ethnic backgrounds.
Giuseppe Dalla Torre slammed the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo for reprinting the “controversial caricatures of Muhammad” to coincide with the trial of the Muslim terrorists who massacred 12 staff in the editorial offices of the Paris publication in 2015.
Writing in Avvenire — a publication of the Italian Episcopal Conference — Torre reignites the free speech debate in a Saturday column, stressing the need to consider the “dangerous or negative” consequences towards others even exercising the right to “freedom of expression.”
Torre, who shares a bond with Pope Francis, contends that “it is not lawful for anyone to offend the legitimate and deepest feelings of others, starting with family affections.”
“Who would tolerate public satirical barbs at their mother? And for every believer, religion is a mother,” Torre, who is also a canonist, argues.
As Muslim mobs raged against the Muhammad cartoons, Pope Francis addressed the attacks on the Charlie Hebdo staff, insisting there were limits to offending and ridiculing the faiths and beliefs of others.
En route to the Philippines, the pontiff referred to papal trip organizer Alberto Gasparri, who was standing by his side onboard the papal plane.
“If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch,” Francis said while pretending to throw a punch in his direction.
“It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others,” Francis added. “Each religion has its dignity. I cannot make fun of it.”…
“No, it’s not normal to punch someone who insults you; the pope’s Christ certainly didn’t think so. Verbal provocation is never an excuse for violence — that’s the wife-beater’s defense,” wrote columnist Polly Toynbee in The Guardian.
“Is he saying we must respect any old cult — followers of Black Sabbath, Odin, Scientology, astrology? Or is it the size of a faith that earns it the right to gag mockery?” Toynbee asked.
National Review‘s Charles Cooke accused Francis of giving “succor to the notion that those who give gratuitous offense should expect retaliation.”
Cooke elaborated: “The language he [the pope] used was imprecise, poorly judged and terribly, terribly timed. There is never — ever — an excuse for violence against peaceful critics. It is not in any way ‘normal’ to see such foul play.”…
Agostino Armo Pellegrini says
… the Western tradition of satire must not be used to target people of other religious or ethnic backgrounds.
Why not? What is it about islam that renders it above normal criticism of the humorous kind? Is it the murder and terror it glorifies and teaches? Is it their culture of human rights violations that those teachings are based upon? What the f*ck is it that says islam should be immune from the hatred and mockery of decent thinking people? And the answer is, “nothing,” there is absolutely no good reason to grant islam special consideration in the midst of all the terror it causes.
Pope Francis, contends that “it is not lawful for anyone to offend the legitimate and deepest feelings of others, starting with family affections.”
Well I beg to differ, islam has carte blanche to offend us with their “godly” doctrines that explicitly threaten us with death and subjugation. Their legal system and religion has been muslims’ sole justification for terrorizing the non-muslim world for centuries. But we can’t have a cartoon that mocks and criticizes that reality. Somebody is cookoo, and I don’t think it’s us “islamophobes.” (everytime I use that bigoted term I feel the urge apologize for repeating it, so I apologize.)
“Who would tolerate public satirical barbs at their mother? And for every believer, religion is a mother,” Torre… argues.
A better question: who would tolerate the genocidal murder and terror of their people for a religion without objecting to it in some shape or form? Listen, people who create cartoons that mock or criticize the aggressive hate of the muslim religion do not desereve this censure, it is frauds like the pope who relegate our humanity to the realm of political one-upmanship that deserve a corrective slap of the face.
There’s more to say about those remaining slanted “popish” quotes above, but what’s the point, really? The left who needs to hear our sound advice and admonishments don’t listen anyway. They are weak for their own selfish aims, money, and power. Are we perfect? NO, of course not. But somehow in the midst of all this terror for islam I can’t help but believe we’re far superior to the appeasers and liars who protect it. A cartoon has never killed anyone, while islam has killed and oppressed millions. I’m going with the cartoon on this one.
Mount Zion says
Your comments should be heared on a larger scale , not only in the anonomity of this comment section .
Agostino Armo Pellegrini says
Well that’s nice of you to say. But I’m not saying anything that Spencer and JW hasn’t said better. I’m just here to show my support for the good work JW does on our behalf. I express a lot of redundancy from post to post, I’m sure. But the problem is, there’s only so many ways one can say, “islam sucks.” Every post of mine is little more than a subtle variation of one loud, boisterous refrain. There are times, quite often, where I start to get sick of my own big but truthful mouth. I can’t even imagine the pain you guys feel over it, lol. I’ll be taking a break soon, and then when I return you can all say, “Oh, no, he’s back!” LOL
gravenimage says
Mount Zion, many more people read here than post.
FYI says
‘Torre, who shares a bond with pope francis’
What kind of bond?
Gilt-edged,adhesive,covalent,ionic,James?
Speaking of bonds.. I’m sure the pope’s best islamic buddy ahmed al tayyib{mwah} will be delighted at the vatican’s pandering to islam
And it is funny how a ‘top catholic’ has failed to notice all the errors and heresies introduced by his friend but then ‘there are none so blind as those who refuse to see’
francis famously said he would punch anyone who insulted his mother so here is one for the Theologians:what if God{or worse allah} insulted the pope’s mother?
God:hey francis,did you hear the one about the Chilean sailors and your m…?
francis:grrrr.Where are you?C’mon,c’mon.
God:whoa easy big fella!
allah:hey francis..thanks for all your help in undermining christianity for me..it makes it so much easier for me!See you soon..
medforth says
A Tunisian stabs Catholic priest to death in the Piazza San Rocco in Como, Italy
A 51-year-old priest, Don Roberto Malgesini, was stabbed to death this morning in Piazza San Rocco, Como.
The attack took place shortly after 7 o’clock due to a quarrel in the street: the man was found lying on the ground, with several stab wounds, in the climb leading to the church, near his house.Aid was useless: the doctors could only ascertain his death. The perpetrator of the crime constituted himself to the Carabinieri: he would be a homeless man of Tunisian origin with mental problems. It was learned from the diocese of Como. Bishop Oscar Cantoni arrived at the scene of the murder, where there is also the replaced prosecutor Massimo Astori. The motive is not yet known. All the useful elements are being examined, not least any video footage of the area. Don Malgesini, from Valtellina, was known in the city for his commitment in favor of migrants. It belonged to the parish of San Bartolomeo. He brought breakfasts to the homeless, served the canteen, the dormitory, had deep relationships with many of them. The district of San Rocco, at the entrance to the Como valley, with many old houses, has long been inhabited mainly by immigrants.
https://medforthblog.wordpress.com/2020/09/15/a-tunisian-stabs-catholic-priest-to-death-in-the-piazza-san-rocco-in-como-italy/
gravenimage says
Medforth, thank you for that terrible and very salient news.
Mount Zion says
“It’s not lawful for anyone to offend the deepest feeling of others… ” says a catholic jurist . I’m so sick and tired of it all , this constant defending of a sick death cult , God forbid you depict Mo , the good catholic jurist doesn’t say a word though about the fact that they blow themselves up for Allaha or that it’s lawful to rape non muslim women or kill kuffars any way they can for example trough vehicular jihad or random knife attacks . I’ll say it again , I’m really sick and tired of it and I honestly have no clue what could be done to go back to a sane world .
mgoldberg says
It is lawful to offend the deepest feelings of others. If I wish to say that a pedophile loving children is a criminally disposed person causing dreadful harm to children I don’t feel that is an unlawful use of words ‘offending the deepest feelings of others’.
Mo’ was a warmonger- and the Jihadists who follow him terrorize and murder at his commands. That is not offending the deepest feelings but stating a fact….
gravenimage says
Spot on. (I only disagree that child sexual abuse is “loving”–it is anything but).
Wellington says
It seems much of the Roman Catholic hierarchy has lost its collective mind and its collective balls.
Just as Western Civilization and freedom cannot survive without knowledge, wisdom, courage and common sense, so is it the case with the Roman Catholic Church, which is presently in self-destructive mode, as is a good portion of the West in general.
Yes, there are devout Catholics, many, who know only too well how far the Church has fallen, ditto for many patriotic citizens in sundry Western nations regarding their own country, but this “awareness” is not going to be good enough. Much more is needed and what is most needed is control. How to achieve this is the deuce difficult problem—but it is a problem which must be solved or else. In brief, the wrong people are in charge and this needs to end.
Respecting specifically this foolish jurist, Torre, he is in error twice over. He is wrong about what should be lawful and wrong about who should be offended. To assert that making fun of a religion or a family should not be lawful is an egregious assault on the entire concept of liberty. So, we can’t make fun of Satanism or we should not make fun of Mexican crime families? And we can’t make fun of a religion in Islam that actually sanctions rape and death for apostasy and can’t make fun of a Muslim husband who, per Sura 4:34, is sanctioned to use physical force against his wives (never mind that polygamy on its own, and which Islam allows, should be made fun of)?
If guts and knowledge are absent, then subservient existence at best is a very likely result. Islam desires exactly this from the dhimmi. Torre is unconscionably clueless here and abetting the dhimmi status so desired by Islam. Sadly, Torre is, clearly, representing the official position of the Roman Catholic Church in our time.
Not good. Not good at all. Indeed, no good can come from this unless its very pusillanimity and foolhardiness serves to aid in putting matters right. And putting matters right is sorely needed in the Roman Catholic Church and in the West at large.
A given. Way overdue.
James Lincoln says
Wellington,
Excellent post, oh how I wish that I could say that you are wrong…
Absolutely tragic beyond tragic what has happened to the Roman Catholic Church.
Even after the disastrous Vatican II, I saw a glimmer of hope with Pope Benedict XVI, until his “suspicious” resignation in 2013…
gravenimage says
+1
curiuos george says
The verses below sum up my thinking on the “institution” of the Roman Catholic Church, not the everyday, hardworking, God loving, Roman Catholic. When reading these versus, think of… The Vatican, the Pope and the Magisterium.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness.
Matthew 23:27 (ESV)
“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
Matthew 23:2-3
In this passage, Matthew 23:2-3, Yeshua HaMashiach is saying… when Israel’s religious leaders were on the seat of Moses, they spoke ONLY from the Scriptures. The Pharisee or Scribe would open the scroll to the appropriate passage(s) he would read from the Scripture(s) and when he finished, he stepped off the seat of Moses. Thus, they were speaking the Word of God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Then he said to me, “Son of man, dig in the wall.” So I dug in the wall, and behold, there was an entrance. And he said to me, “Go in, and see the vile abominations that they are committing here.” So I went in and saw. And there, engraved on the wall all around, was every form of creeping things and loathsome beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel.
Ezekiel 8:8-10
What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 (ESV)
Demetrio says
The Catholic Church has fallen for woke culture.
FYI says
Indeed and so it seems have the protestant churches.
That there would be a worldwide apostasy was predicted by Jesus Christ.
{“many will give up their faith at that time ” Matthew 24 v 10}
And the state of Christendom?That too..
“They will hold to the outer form of {our} religion,but reject its inner power.
Keep away from such people”
2 Timothy 3 v 5
‘keep away from such people’…
I understand if people brought up as catholic or protestant may feel they have no church today{i know many catholics who have left}but it is imperative to stay away from islam.islam CURSES christians for believing in Jesus Christ {koran 9:30}
gravenimage says
Grimly common–and true with much of the Orthodox Church, as well.
Rarely says
A natural extension of the ability to hit someone who insulted your mother would be that, in future, Catholic clergy would be eligible for the draft and not just as clergymen.
gravenimage says
Yes–who over the age of twelve punches someone put for insultin’ his momma? Not civilized individuals.
revereridesagain says
“It is not lawful for anyone to offend the legitimate and deepest feelings of others, starting with family affections.”
EXCUSE ME, Your Sanctimoniousness? Exactly WHERE is it “not lawful” to hurt feelings? No where that the basic right of expression is respected. Anyone whose “deepest feelings” are “offended” is free to turn around and leave. And what do “family affections” have to do with criticizing a plague upon the earth such as Islamic ideology?
“It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others,” Francis added. “Each religion has its dignity. I cannot make fun of it.”…
Yes I can, you pompous eunuch. I do it all the time. And I intend to continue, whether pompous wanna-be clerical tyrants like you like it or not.
mortimer says
Giuseppe Dalla Torre should learn that a freedom that is not utilized is a dormant and ineffectual freedom. It is POINTLESS to even claim to have freedom of expression if we may never use it.
Giuseppe Dalla Torre is GENUFLECTING to the Heckler’s Veto.
Giuseppe Dalla Torre should learn what the Heckler’s Veto is:
… “an IMPERMISSIBLE content-based RESTRICTION on speech where the speech is prohibited due to an ANTICIPATED DISORDERLY or VIOLENT reaction of the audience.” – Justice Dolores Sloviter
Giuseppe Dalla Torre tells us to let bullies control us.
gravenimage says
Hear, hear!
gravenimage says
Catholic jurist slams Charlie Hebdo for reprinting Muhammad cartoons, warns of ‘dangerous or negative’ consequences
…………………..
Does the repulsive dhimmi Giuseppe Dalla Torre have any problem with Muslims slaughtering people for daring to say that their creed is violent? Not so he says.
And the idea that there is any dignity to idolizing a warlord, pedophile, slaver, rapist, and mass murderer is just appalling.
GreekEmpress says
Either you have free speech or you don’t.
End of story.
somehistory says
Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God. How many times has He been painted,drawn, , represented as a baby by a plastic doll, mocked, reviled, and this pope and his henchmen spoken out against any of it?
It’s true that some artists have made a sincere attempt to paint Jesus…as they may see Him, But if He is God as many claim, then why is it okay to paint God…He says not to attempt to make an image of Him…and it’s not even okay to draw this corrupt human creature, this vile mass-murdering, raper of children, lying son-of statan?
The pope and his henchmen need to find a corner some where, pile up a bunch of ashes, take a prostrated seat, and repent of their many and grievous sins before Judgment overtakes them. Enough of this defense of satan’s beast.
gravenimage says
Actually, one is not supposed to *worship* any image of God (or anything else). Christianity does not actually ban the depiction of Jesus.
somehistory says
The Commandment said, “Do not make for yourselves a carved image to bow down to them or serve them. ”
“or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.(Exodus 20)
It is a common practice for many who believe in Jesus that they bow down before His “image”…and treat such as “holy.” Many in the past have even worshipped what they thought was a part of the wood which held Him as He died.
My point ws this: the pope and his followers who copy his language about islam, do not have the same feelings about anything to do with Christ.
As for what Christianity “bans.”….there are so many people who claim to be Christian, but have no idea what it is all about. And, what is more, the disciples of Jesus who walked with Him, were taught that the Law given to them as Jews, no longer applied to them as Christians. However, the “spirit”of the Law did in fact, that is why Jesus said what were “the two greatest commandments,” and instructed His disciples in following these.
My point was that the pope and the others in his church administration don’t give one care what is done about Jesus Christ or the Holy God of the Bible. They only care that drawing a picture of a dead pedoluster, lying mass murderer is “wrong.” The pope doesn’t give a care that this creep is “worshipped” only that he must not be depicted.
I was comparing what these idiots say with what is done, not what Christianity…Jesus may have “banned,” or didn’t “ban.”
If Jesus spoke against anything, He is my Instructor. If He spoke in favor of something, He is my Instructor.; Not some imperfect human who is no better at discernment than I.
gravenimage says
Somehistory, no mainstream Christian denomination has taught the worship of images.
curious george says
gravenimage says
Somehistory, no mainstream Christian denomination has taught the worship of images.
…………………………………………..
gravenimage,
This is an issue we might have to agree to disagree, amicably.
Please note that the Roman Catholic version of the 10 Commandments is different from the Jewish/Protestant version of the 10 Commandments.
Chart: Comparing the Ten Commandments
https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/2007/03/chart-comparing-the-ten-commandments.aspx
Link to Merriam-Webster: Worship
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship
Link to Merriam-Webster: Devotion
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/devotion
It appears that the Roman Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary.
I’m going out on a limb here, but I’m guessing that every Roman Catholic Church has a statue or a picture (image) of Mary and that some have that statue or picture (image) in a prominent location.
Millions of people, every year, travel to sites, like Fatima, Lourdes and Medjugorje where Mary was supposed to have appeared. Each of these sites have a Statue (image) of Mary where people show their devotion to her.
I had neighbors who were Roman Catholics, some of whom went to Mass and Communion every day. They also said the Rosary, while at Mass, every day. Some would say that is an act of devotion (worship).
Pope John Paul II kept a prayer to Mary with him at all times. He prayed to Mary and thanked her, not Yeshua HaMashiach, for saving his life after the failed assassination. That appears to be an act of devotion (worship).
To You, O Mary! (written by Pope John-Paul II)
https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=2883
gravenimage says
curious george, Catholicism does not teach the worship of Mary, although they do indeed hold her in special esteem.
But even if they did worship Mary, this is very different from their worshiping *images* of Mary, or anyone else. Images are certainly allowed in Catholicism, as they are not in some Protestant denominations–but this does not constitute worship.
This is, of course, not the venue to go into this further–but I stand by my assertion that no Christian denomination preaches the worship of images.
curious george says
gravenimage,
Thank you for your reply, the Jesuits couldn’t have done better. (I’d put a smiley face here, unfortunately, I don’t know how to do that.)
I agree this isn’t the forum for further discussion on the issue. As always, your knowledge and expertise on multiple topics is appreciated, keep up the good work.
gravenimage says
Thanks for your reply, curious george.
By the way, I am not Catholic myself.
And here is how to do a smiley face: first, a colon [:], then, a closing parenthesis: [)]. Put them right next to each other and you get this: 🙂
curious george says
Thank you gravenimage. 🙂
gravenimage says
🙂
Lavéritétriomphera says
I do not trust Giuseppe Dalla Torre. He has an other goal in mind. I know that the Catholic Church is informed of the persecution of the Christians especially in the land of Islam. And without saying so, this attacks on Christians are a concern to the Catholic hierarchy.
Ade Fegan says
Catholic jurist issues fatwa
OLD GUY says
If you are a Christian and you bow your head for islam you are likely to get your head cut off.
Roger Woodhouse says
Defending Islam by the catholic Pope wont save his church when Islam is strong enough in Italy .The church will be destroyed along with all its precious icons.Will the Pope of the time call for an army to save ‘Christianity’?
Reziac says
Funny how there are no “dangerous consequences” whenever Christian or Jewish jokes are reprinted… in fact there’s a whole youtube series (four seasons now!) and website called “Old Jews Telling Jokes” that are all jokes told by and mostly about Jews. But do you ever find Muslims poking fun at themselves? Nope, never. I conclude that to be a proper Muslim, you must get your sense of humor removed.
As someone put it, “I try not to tell religious jokes to Muslims any more: half of them are crazy, and the ones with Uzis simply don’t get the joke.”
gravenimage says
+1
Lavéritétriomphera says
@Reziac,
Muslims cannot put into question their religion, because they are not sure their faith is based on truth.
FYI says
muhammed mass-murdered Jews{Abu Dawud 4390}
muhammed stole from the Jews{at khaibar}
muhammed died after years of agony after being poisoned by a Jewish woman
muhammed cursed the Jews on his deathbed{Sahih Muslim 1082}
muhammed despised the Jews{a people ‘to be hated and despised”koran 2:65}
muhmmed dies..
And WHO gets to judge him?
A Jew
{If you are Jewish you would say YHWH but Christians also believe in YHWH and Jesus Christ the Judge is JEWISH:either way you look at it,it is JEWISH}
YHWH will always have the last laugh.
muslimsthink allah is the same as YHWH but allah is not YHWH.muslims and nazis don’t see that coming.
{and btw it is the same if you replace muhammed with hitler}
Boycott Turkey says
I wonder if Giuseppe Dalla Morre also slammed Charlie Hebdo over mocking Jesus? Or Turning Churches to mosque Answer is ?
GreekEmpress says
+1