The advancing jihad is making the case for an armed citizenry.
“London attacks: incidents at London Bridge and Borough Market confirmed as terrorism – live,” by Claire Phipps, Guardian, June 3, 2017:
My colleague Chris Johnston is at the scene and has been speaking to witnesses:
Gerard Vowls, 47, had been watching the Champions League final at the Ship pub in Borough. He was at the start of the south side of London Bridge and saw a woman being stabbed by three men.
“I want to know if this girl is still alive,” he said. “I’ve been walking around for an hour and a half crying my eyes out. I don’t know what to do.”
Vowls said he was throwing chairs, glasses and bottles at the attackers in a bid to stop them. “They kept coming to try to stab me … they were stabbing everyone. Evil, evil people.”
It took at least 10 minutes for armed police to reach the scene, he added.
Jaladhi says
Real Islam and real Muslims at their real best murdering infidels but the stupid infidel leaders still deny it!! Who can save them???
mortimer says
The motive of the attacks is KAFIROPHOBIA a very deadly philosophy of HATRED directed towards the dirty KAFIRS by Muslims.
KAFIROPHOBIA is also called AL WALAA WAL BARAA, the ESSENTIAL DOCTRINE of HATING KAFIRS ‘for the sake of Allah’.
Isn’t that simply SPIRITUAL? Hating the dirty kufaar FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH.
HATING KUFAAR is normative Islam, rather than aberration.
p says
Merkel says go to a church, or look at a painting.
Guy Jones says
I always thought that it was beyond farce and foolishness for the normally level-headed Brits to insist that their police remain unarmed, even in the wake of numerous jihadist attacks over the past two years.
I can only surmise that this abjectly idiotic, self-emasculating policy is born of the same haughty, myopic pretense to self-perceived moral superiority that continental Europeans exhibit in spades. You know, something along the lines of, “Our society is so advanced, our police officers don’t need to carry weapons — unlike those savage heathens, the Americans.” Or, something along those lines.
Jerseylass says
I believe the point being made was that it took 10 MINUTES for the police to arrive – armed or not. Along with that point is the fact that Brit citizens are not allowed to be armed themselves and so he had to try and defend himself and others with chairs and bottles (I bet he gets in trouble for admitting that). Hopefully he smashed a bottle on the edge of the bar, like in the old Western movies. But I have a feeling the Brit men of today are far too gentle for such actions.
Arthur says
Perhaps he pulled up 3 chairs for the attackers, set out some glasses, and offered to share a bottle of seltzer with them so they could sit down and discuss how Islam is a religion of peace and clear up this terrible misunderstanding.
No, I reckon not.
More likely he’s just a poor regular fellow trying to get by in life and he has to deal with the brutal side of the poor decisions made by his governing elite. Meanwhile those privileged elite watch the nightly jihad entertainment in the luxury and security of their estates and mumble, “My, how appalling.”
John Harper says
I’ve heard rumors that the Brits have recently cloned a “British man” so they may now have at least one:
http://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/manchester-scientist-to-clone-british-man-from-9th-century-t19464.html
El Gato says
My Uncle was a bar man and owner. He always had a short club behind the bar.. to deal with drunks. I do believe he would have used it. He was a big guy of Irish ancestry.
TH says
In the old days, before there was high crime, unarmed police wasn’t a bad idea. I am Irish and we have always had unarmed police, only detectives in plain clothes being armed. They might be about 10% of the force.
Guest says
Ah yes, the olden days. When I lived in Germany, with children cycling on the bike paths from an early age, going to the pool for fun, strolling in the pedestrian zone for an ice cream. All safe alone or in happy little groups.
A town that now keeps coming up in the news with attacks on locals by muslims. I am shattered.
gravenimage says
My grandfather was a police superintendent in the West Midlands, and he and his force usually went unarmed.
A different age.
Ai Marvin says
Not a different age, they are dealing with a different form of – Muslim
p says
If they need a weapon, they can take it from a muslim
JIMJFOX says
The UK Police are NOT UNARMED! How many times does one have to tell ignorant Americans this fact??
Larry says
Well, most of the UK Cops one sees on TV don’t have firearms on them. I guess they have clubs and spray, I don’t know. I see the SWAT guys have firearms. Bottom line: every law abiding citizen, of a free and civilized country should be armed. I knew that the UK would rue the day they disallowed firearm ownership.
Larry says
Face it, Briton has been going down hill since Maggie Thatcher left office. Multiculturalism has destroyed Europe in general. What a shame! The US has been headed in that direction for many years and we now have one chance to stop its demise. We are in a world war with Islam right now, as well as a civil war here in the US. The next few years are going to very interesting.
Ai Marvin says
Not a different age, they are dealing with a different form of – Muslim
Larry says
I thank God for our Second Amendment, and the right to concealed carry here in the US. Here in Utah these guys would have been dropped like big bags of s**t within seconds.
antonio says
Like the five people in Orlando etc, etc, etc
Son of the West says
The real root of the question is whether or not Western people are controlled and subjugated by their own leaders to allow incremental jihad like this to continue, until the world bows to Islam, or if Western people truly do not understand the threat and are content to bask in bromides such as “It’s just a few bad apples” or “We have to allow religious liberty for everyone.”
However, it seems likely most people simply cannot wrap their heads around the idea there are adherents to an ideology that wants to convert, subjugate, or kill them. They grow up being told that if you’re nice to people, they’ll be nice back to you. The good guys always win in their superhero and action movies. They are like children that believe misfortune will never come to their lives.
Even when their heads are being severed, they will apologize to the Muslim for having been so rude not to decapitate themselves first.
mccode says
Son of the West, your assessment is quite correct.
WTF is wrong with any “leader” who cannot speak the horrific truth that is becoming tragically more evident every day.
Down South says
Son of the West,
I agree, but all anyone needs to do is look around. If the “good guys” always won the good guys would be in charge now. As anyone with an operational brain can discern, the powerful people in charge are the bad guys. To think otherwise is to live in a utopian fantasy that borders on mental illness. Fantasies are just that, pleasant dreams that never come true. People better wake up and see reality or they will be living in the fantasies of the jihadists.
p says
The idea there are adherents to an ideology that wants to convert, subjugate, or kill them. The libs think thats the conservatives.
somehistory says
How very horrible! For the lady and for the guy trying to help. Just demonic on the part of the murderers, nothing less than demon inspired.
BLC says
Waging war on innocent civilians really is Satanic.
Bronson says
Don’t forget though that under Sharia, now being implemented and enforced in the UK, infidels are not innocent nor are they civilians.
TH says
We need to understand that according to the Koran, the kaffir is not innocent. The true religion has been clearly proclaimed for 1400 years now, and the kaffir has rejected it and is therefore to blame, and has to pay the price for his infidelity, being killed as the Koran orders.
johnnybigtime says
Hello TH
Muslims claim that Moses was a prophet.
Yet Moses brought the ten commandments down from Mount Sinai; which state:-
‘Thou Shalt Not Kill’
The Koran is a Satanic fake; written hundreds of years after the Bible was a complected book.
In the last book of the Bible, we are informed that anyone who adds or takes away anything from its pages will be damned.
All murderers (some Muslims) and unbelievers (all Muslims) shall have their portion in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death (Revelation 21)
gravenimage says
The Muslim “prophet Musa” is nothing like Moses.
mccode says
As another acerbic wag posted elsewhere, “this is more proof we don’t need a travel ban.”
tgusa says
Never bring chairs, glasses and bottles to a knife fight. Having been reduced to defending yourself and others that way has to be really really frustrating.
Anne Smith says
Any useful ideas as to how to defend oneself against a knife attack?
somehistory says
When going out, carry a can of wasp spray. If you see any wasps attacking, it will be handy. If someone comes with a knife, it will prove handy then too. And it can reach them from a distance.
Undaunted says
Best defense is to empty a full magazine into the attacker. Since most won’t carry the necessary items for such a defense, your best plan is this:
With both hands, grab the wrist of the person with the knife and hold on tight. Yes, you might get cut. Then kick, bite, shove, body-slam the attacker until he or she stops the attack. If there is someone who can help you, that person can get the attacker in a good choke-hold and hold it until the attacker goes limp for several seconds, then immediately restrain him or her. I know this sounds kind of silly but it’s taught at Street Survival Seminars all over the world to cops who might end up empty-handed. It works.
Other more complicated tactics below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RCLq5vtC44
gravenimage says
Thanks for the link, Undaunted.
Eric says
When attached with a knife get something in your hands, follow your instincts and do what you need to survive.
Eric
Gayle says
The British people need to be armed so that they can attack back. It would be great if neighborhoods formed special groups who practice target shooting.
The very best thing to do would be get rid of all Mulims of the Religion of Pieces. Captured murderers need to be executed, not jailed. You could fly over Syria or another Muslim country and throw these Muslim murderers out of the plane.
Britain can no longer play fast and loose with the lives of its citizens.
ed says
that means arming 3.5 million muslim males of fighting age in the uk as well !!!!!!!!!
JIMJFOX says
Stupid, stupid remark. The US principle of a “well regulated militia” should be made UK [& European] law. Composed as much as possible of well-vetted ex-armed forces personnel who will carry concealed weapons. Next selected civilians aged 40 min with firearms experience [YES, there are gun clubs in UK] who are required to train 2 weeks every year & pass psych testing.
ALL MUSLIMS EXCLUDED, naturally. BTW, a quote from Terry Pratchett:
“Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind”
Michael Copeland says
“Run. Hide. Tell.”
or
“Close. Hang. Deport.”
See Liberty GB graphic:
https://www.facebook.com/LibertyGBParty/photos/a.376867075763744.1073741828.376566465793805/1309048642545578/?type=3&theater
Joe says
The left’s whole idea of enabling jihad is to get more government (not armed civilians). For example, the left wants government to have more spying powers. The idea is to be dumb enough to let some enemy in to create chronic terrorism, and then the left do not let the crisis go to waste. As May did in this article, she wants to be tougher or terrorism. She doesn’t mean to let in fewer terrorists, she wants more police suppression, as in the case of a helicopter swat team being flown to a crisis when the police didn’t like the YouTube song someone was playing.
Angel says
I wish these bastards had tried that in the US. They would have been gunned down in no time and sent speedily to their Shaitan (the devil) and its hell, much to their surprise since these retards all buy the myth that they’ll end up in paradise. What amazes me the most about these guys is their unfathomable stupidity to believe such faily tales. They should all be disposed of the way Israel dispatches every would-be Palestinian terrorist as soon as they attack. Have the Brits become as neutered as the French while the barbarians keep killing them day in and day out?
Michael Casmer says
Unofrtunately, they did try it here in the US. Several times. Ft. Hood, Orlando, San Bernadino. The killer at Ft. Hood is still collecting military pay and is still alive
MacUalraig says
Yeah, shameful. I hang my head in shame that it’s happening here in the USA, too.
gravenimage says
All too true.
Of course, some Jihadists *have* been shot–the Garland Jihadist and the knife-wielding Jihadist in Minnesota.
somehistory says
And the guy in OK who cut off the woman’s head at work and one of the owners of the business shot and killed him before he could kill others.
gravenimage says
Thanks for that additional example, Somehistory.
Linda Prince Johnson says
And we know who we have to blame for that……BHO.
Joe says
Yeah, “gun free” zones are essentially “kill” zones.
Ed Lee says
When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.
Anne Smith says
The Brits have become defenceless thanks to the invasive and heavily enforced laws about not being allowed weapons of any sort. Even a penknife is likely to be confiscated.
Probably the only thing we can have legally to protect ourselves is a stab proof vest but it will not help if the attacking Muslim obeys the Koran and strikes the neck.
David, Thailand says
10 minutes is about right, from the Fortress Fruitcake Westminster (seat of gov) area to London Bridge.
Sarah says
How about I predict what’s going to unfold over the next few days.
1. Statements released by politician’s, community leaders, celebrities and other self-announced ‘experts’ stating:
a) This is not Islam. Islam is the religion of peace.
b) We will not be divided by this.
c) Love will ultimately conquer hate.
2. A tiny number of the 1.4 billion Muslims around the world will stand up and say:
a) This is not Islam. Islam is the religion of peace.
b) Why should we have to apologize for this.
c) We are the real victims here. Anyone who says any different is an Islamaphobe and a Racist.
3. A bunch of weak dipshit’s will shake themselves off and announce:
a) Candlelight vigils re to be held to support the memory of those lost where people sit around, holding tea lights, ‘defiantly’ stating whilst sitting cross-legged on the concrete that ‘love cancels out hate’.
b) A flood of useless, worthless, insincere and ultimately completely narcissistic tweets and comments across various social media outlets babbling on about peace, love, the religion of peace wah wah wah.
4. Some random Imam who runs the Mosque closest to the site of the attack and where the family and friends of these Muslims who committed the latest attack will issue a quiet statement about how they refuse to bury the bodies according to Muslim tradition. Yawn. Also, they’ll add in the usual about how they were bad Muslims, probably mentally ill, probably did drugs and drank – Islam after all, is the religion of peace.
5. Theresa May will announce solemnly from the steps of Downing St of the latest attack. How the terrorists will not win, how Islam is the religion of peace, how love will conquer hate and how Britain will endure.
And then she will institute further sly insertions against the British people’s rights and freedoms, by keeping more armed soldiers on the streets. And promising to arm more Police and suggesting curfews and other things to be forced onto every living Brit in the nation – whilst carefully not saying a word against Muslims or Islam.
6. The Media will salivate for a few days, turning this into an obscene road show where they milk every little bit they can out of the suffering and tragedy felt and experienced by the victims and their loved ones.
Whilst Muslims bleat and whinge and moan about how they instead are the true victims here – oh and that Israel is an abomination and all Jews must die horribly.
And the sheep calm down and continue on.
And within 18 – 22 hours of this attack, another one will occur somewhere in the world, if it happens outside of the West, the media won’t pay any real attention to it. Most people won’t know it happened, as they’ll be too busy reading the DailyMail or the Guardian, popping tweets about love and buying tea candles and flooding cash into endless GoFundMe accounts for the victims and their funerals.
Rinse and repeat. Life goes on. At least for those who did not die today.
We should all hang our head’s in shame for this. We all have blood on our hands for this. For not forcing our government’s to listen to us and forcing these animals and their depraved religion out of our nation’s.
All of us. Including myself. Sitting here, writing angry messages online when I, along with every other Aussie who is FED THE FUCK UP with all of this ,should be marching on Canberra RIGHT NOW.But I’m not, none of us are. And more will be hurt, terrorized and slaughtered as a result.
At least we’re not lying to ourselves about the mess we’re in. We’re not lighting tea candles and hugging some bedsheet clad Muslim proclaiming Islam to be peaceful. It could be worse, I guess.
I feel guilty and ashamed today. I feel heartbroken for the families of the victims. This is my fault, its all of our faults. We have to take a stand now. We have to stop this. We have to fix this. No more death no more suffering or fear. When I saw footage today of British men and women cowering in a restaurant, hiding behind chairs and tables, as directed by a couple of Cops who had led them there to keep them safe – it hit me. It hit me like a tonne of bricks.
Here are Westerners. In the West. Hiding in a random restaurant because our streets ARE NOT SAFE ANYMORE. That is inconceivable. They are not safe because we have let the worst of humanity overrun us. Its time we fixed that.
MacUalraig says
That was an amazing, well written piece from the soul. And I agree. I feel that deep sense of shame as well. And I served 22 years in uniform.
I still feel ashamed.
Sarah says
Thank-you.
You shouldn’t be ashamed. Out of all of us today. You’ve served. I haven’t. Most of us haven’t.
You have put your life at risk for all of us. As an Atheist – that commitment blows me away 🙂 After all, I don’t believe in an afterlife, so risking the one life you have, to serve others – that’s incredible in my view.
I am not very pro-military for a number of reasons, but I respect the hell out of any man or woman who joins up.
So thank-you for your service. Thank-you for giving what is probably a third of your lifespan to risking your life for others in the interests of keeping us all safe. You today, have nothing to be ashamed of. You’ve done everything you can ever do – and more than most of us ever will. Don’t feel bad. This is not on the likes of you.
MacUalraig says
Thank You for that kind response.
I guess the reason I feel that way is that there is so much yet to be done.
Sometimes it seems like an insurmountable task.
There are many that post here, however, that keep me inspired and educate me. And correct me when I fail in faith in the world’s infidels, that we can all defeat this plague on mankind called Islam.
peter says
Dear Sir,
Exactly my sentiments .I wish I had your eloquence .Kudos to you for your beautiful letter .
Ace-of-Clubs says
Sarah, great post. You should not feel ashamed. But Muslims should – if they had any heart -, all lefty liberal politicans, teachers, social workers, public officials etc who are appeasers and apologists for Islam are also guilty, all leftwing journalists and media people who try to deny the problem – well, they all have the blood of thousands of victims on their hands. The very fact that you are posting here shows that you care about the west’s future and that you understand the threat of Islam.
All Western politicians should be reading Robert Spencer’s writings, and those of others like him.
If only Winston Churchill were alive today, he understood how evil Islam was even as a young man at the start of his great career.
Sarah says
Thank-you, Ace 🙂
All anyone needs to do – whether they be a Lefty a Conservative, or whatever they describe themselves to be – including Muslims, is so simple. So simple.
They need to read the Quran. The Hadith. The Sira’s. They need to read them.That’s all. Its that stupidly simple. See for themselves. With the Quran being the ‘perfect and unalterable word of God’ and the Hadith being an account of the life and actions of Mohammed, a man who ‘all men should wish to emulate as the most perfect man’ and the Sira’s, a collection of stories recalling Mohammed’s original followers, old battles and other significant historical parts to Islam that are meant to be used as examples as to how Islam should be and how its followers’ should react and behave.
I cannot tell you just how many times I’ve had disagreements and discussions with a wide range of people who have very set views on Islam (from Muslims to Lefties to Conservatives etc) and who haven’t even read the damn things.
Imagine that. I’ve met multiple Muslims who have looked me in the eye and denied certain passages as existing in the Quran. Because they haven’t read the damn thing. They listen to it, as an Imam sings in Arabic, they can’t even speak, read or write Arabic (the ones I’ve come across) they call themselves Muslims and insist their religion is about peace and peace alone – yet they have NO IDEA as to the instructions Mohammed has given them in their scriptures.
And that’s not even accounting for the massive majority of Muslims spread across the third world who also cannot read, speak or write Arabic and whose knowledge of Islam comes solely from being taught by rote, from the Imam’s in a language they cannot understand. The mind boggles at the sheer ignorance on display. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims alive today whose educations in childhood were comprised of learning the Quran by rote in Arabic, even when they cannot speak, read or write it. Hours and hours of rote repetition in a language they don’t understand. And they do this, by cutting out almost all other forms of education that kids around the rest of the world, receive. Uneducated, ignorant and they come away from childhood with the capability to repeat the Quran in a language they don’t understand. And then they move en masse into the West.
Everything we see happening, all the violence, the terror, the death and maiming, all the constant fighting and bickering and civil war across the African and Middle Eastern and Asian regions – all the nasty shit that always seems to follow Muslims around wherever they go – its all from Islam. From the Quran. From the Hadith. From the Sira’s.
Those politicians, the self appointed experts, the celebrities, every single man and woman on the street in every nation on the planet – need to read the Quran, the Hadith and the Sira’s. Instant knowledge will come then. Instant realization that Islam is violent, bloodthirsty and an all encompassing religious, cultural and political doctrine designed to wage war, conquest land and wealth and enslave or kill anyone in their path. That is all it ever was – that is all it will ever be.
I feel ashamed because I have read these things and I do understand what Islam really is. And I’ve done nothing. Its not an excuse that will wash for very much longer.
Winston Churchill is sorely needed today. Alas we cannot revive the dead, because yes I agree – he understood the Mohammedans very very well.
el Cid 2 says
Sarah: Yes. All of our university elites, media, and political leaders, who try to tell us that Islam is THE religion of peace, need to READ THE DAMMED BOOK (the Quran). They need to study Islam (a satanic ideology in my opinion) before they try to tell us what to think. Besides the Quran, the Hadith & the Sira they should look up The Center for the study of Political Islam (Bill Warner), read Mark Steyn’s book (‘America Alone’) and follow Robert Spencer (This site – Jihad Watch) and Pamela Geller among others. The Jihadists even tell us what they intend to do (like Erdogan of Turkey) and our leaders act deaf (and dumb). I am reminded of the saying that “There are none so blind as those who will not see”.
gravenimage says
Fine post, Sarah–but no reason for you to feel ashamed.
Bronson says
Part of the difficulty in Britain is the class system. The very last thing the governing clique will do is allow the lower classes to have any say in setting policy and will sell them down there river.
Dee Miller says
Read the quran, and know that these were true believers.
They do not try to hit the U.S. as much because they know we are all armed and ready…(at least where I live)…WAKE UP…
MacUalraig says
Hero. Cops were AWOL. He tried to defend.
HERO.
gravenimage says
Hear, hear!
Custos Custodum says
Hard to defend others and yourself if you are a SERF beholden to your Leftist masters, FORBIDDEN to buy or carry GUNS, equally FORBIDDEN to say anything unenthusiastic about the Religion of Submission aka Islam.
Britain has succumbed to the blandishments of hard-love activists, first banning all guns, then forcing massive Muslim immigration down the country’s throat without any vote or democratic approval, for the express purpose of subverting the native population (as publicly admitted by Andrew Neather, consigliere to Anthony “Tony” Charles Lynton Bliar.)
Custos Custodum says
CORRECTION: Britain succumbed to the blandishments of *hard-left* activists.
IMPORTANT ADDENDUM: British prime minister Theresa May, like her German colleague Angela Merkel, is childless.
F. Melish says
Islam is the only so-called religion with no creed that represents some form of the Golden Rule.
There is no sympathy for non-Muslims. All their charity is reserved for other Muslims. All others are kafirs, lower than animals in their view.
Even atheists tend to believe in treating others as they would want to be treated.
Islam is primarily a political system, secondarily a religion.
Civilization is incompatible with Islam.
Gayle says
Forget arming the police (they all looked armed tonight as I watched them. It is the public that needs to get armed in Britain. They’re the ones being attacked.Just think how the results might have been different if the jihadis were confronted with guns being shot at them (shooting to kill, of course). No need for chairs , glasses and bottles. Even the people on the bridge might have killed at least two of them.
In this day and age it is crazy NOT to be armed if your gov ernment is going to invite into the country these demon-possessed losers.
Linda Prince Johnson says
They only send armed police when there they are sure the perpetrator is armed. The rest of the police wander around with nothing but a whistle for protection. Are do they get people to be cops in England?
Custos Custodum says
Fighting jihadists by throwing bottles and chairs is quite simply pathetic.
Of course, modern Brits have been brainwashed by their media so long that many of them will congratulate themselves on their “civilized” restraint in the face of a barbarous assault. “At least we don’t live in the U.S.” No doubt they will have been told the frequent lie that 30,000 people annually are the victims of gun violence. (The truth is that according to NIH statistics, some 18,000 gun shot victims are suicides. Most of the remaining 12,000 are drug dealers fighting over territory.)
The legal inability to bear arms is, of course, a distinguishing characteristic of a second-class dhimmi in a Muslim-dominated society.
Joseph says
To all you Obama, Clinton, Warren, and Sanders voters out there. This is what it will look like if you let horrible leaders like all of them ban guns in America. Then your only weapon will be having “911” on your smart phone speed dial… push the button and wait around for ten to fourty-five minutes for the police to arrive, while you’re getting your throat cut and/or your head chopped off. You’ll be dead victim B-18L on one of the endless police investigations (There is nothing to investigate in all these jihad attacks: they tell you who they are; what they’re going to do our innocent men, women and children… and why they’re going to do it–they even tell you how they’re going to do it. And when they blow themselves up or are shot dead by the police–that’s the end of the case. THERE IS NOTHING TO INVESTIGATE FOLKS.) Please wake up America.
LR says
Joseph,
You don’t have to worry about guns getting banned in U.S.A. Even in super ‘liberal’ areas people are allowed to buy guns legally…Plenty of ‘liberals’ buy guns too for self defense and all…
Tobias says
Britons need access to personal side arms to defend themselves from these evil scum!
Lawrence says
It is a good thing Theresa May kept Spencer and Geller out of the UK, otherwise something bad could have happened. Islamophobes would have been offended. And there might have been jihad attacks in consquence, like at music concerts and in central London.
gravenimage says
Grimly hilarious.
LR says
I think you should send that little letter to May….
Donovan Nuera says
At minimum, the British should pack carving knives or combat knives. Good throwing stones in purses. All British should be allowed concealed weapons who are NOT MUSLIMS. Churchill would be aghast at the level of timidity and wussiness: get your act together!!
Ian says
I spent 30 years serving as a police office in the UK. I was firearms trained and in addition shooting was my hobby; however it is a well known fact that police officers in the UK, by and large, do NOT want to carry firearms – some of them I wouldn’t trust with a catapult – I trained with some of them!
It always amazes me how a large percentage of US citizens who live in a country with the worst murder statistics on the planet (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/26/rate-murder-fbi-increase) always claim to know best. You do not! Yes, we have problems but they will not be solved by pandering to the ‘let everybody carry guns brigade’. That way leads to figures such as those above. You’re welcome.
As far as the police response to the latest incident is concerned, from the first call to the police to the last attacked being shot took eight minutes.
Custos Custodum says
Ian, America has a Second Amendment as a check on the powers of the federal government of which the Founding Fathers were (rightly) suspicious.
The Second Amendment was NOT instituted with the aim of keeping murder rates down. If the availability of guns in civilian hands results in a higher number of gun fatalities (about 12,000), the trade-off is no different from that for motor vehicles (about 34,000). Let’s ban cars!
As an added benefit, the Second Amendment greatly reduces the number of muggings (very common in the UK, as you know) and other violence against strangers. As you know, muggers in the UK can perpetrate their crimes safe in the knowledge that they are exceedingly unlikely to be shot by an armed bystander.
Re GUARDIAN – has it never occurred to you that the Guardian is owned and run by and for people with an AGENDA in which the welfare of Britain’s traditional working class population is not a priority, to put it mildly? Have you never heard a Guardian writer speak on television?
Ian says
Ban cars? That a silly argument. Cars have an obvious use and that’s transportation. What about guns and knives, they’re not just for decoration. As for the Guardian, yes I have and my link was purely to show the figures produced by US government.
Undaunted says
30 years as a cop in the UK is roughly equivalent to being a school crossing guard in the US, Ian. “Firearms trained”, my ass.
The homicide stats to which you refer us are misleading. They count suicides and accidents as murders. Moreover, there are far more instances of innocents being saved by the presence and/or use of a gun than there are murders, legit murders.
As a former homicide detective who’s been involved in law enforcement and counter-terrorism since I was 19 – and carried a gun most of that time – I can tell you for certain that guns in the hands of potential victims leads to fewer victims.
“As far as the police response to the latest incident is concerned, from the first call to the police to the last attacked [sic] being shot took eight minutes.” And, that’s a good thing, Ian?
How many knife blows does it take to kill a person? I’ve seen one do the job. The amount of time it takes from when an attack is perpetrated until it is ended by whatever means necessary – including overwhelming force of violence – must be as short as possible, no matter what weapon is used.
You’re a clown, Ian. Nobody’s impressed by your crossing-guard bullshit.
Undaunted says
“however it is a well known fact that police officers in the UK, by and large, do NOT want to carry firearms…”
There’s your problem, dipshit. You’re a bunch of pussies.
Ian says
My, my and aren’t you the clever one? The firearms stats are only misleading to someone with the IQ of a squashed lemon.But your comments are quite interesting, basically it seems that you just want to brag about the size of your penis, sorry firearm. Plus you have a very convenient memory. JUST HOW MANY OF THESE MASS MURDERS OF CHILDREN, SHALL WE BEGIN WITH COLUMBINE, COULD HAVE BEEN CARRIED OUR IF GUNS WEREN’T AS COMMON AS HANDKETCHIEFS? You only need homicide detectives because of the nuymber of homicides that you have. Let’s face it, you couldn’t cope as a police office in the UK. Better to stay at home and admire your penis!
gravenimage says
Ian wrote:
You only need homicide detectives because of the nuymber (sic) of homicides that you have.
………………………..
Ian, your apparent belief that Britain does not investigate murders is quite mistaken.
In fact, investigation of this Jihad terror attack is underway, and numerous arrests have been made. Are you unaware of this?
Sarah says
I see a lot of people, who I assume are Americans, not liking Ian’s response regarding armed Police.
Guys – The UK Police have been trained for so many years now in de-escalation strategies and risk minimization harm policies – they’re taught to calm a situation down, not shoot their way out of it.
Is that the right way? I don’t know. I’m not British. I’m an Aussie. Our Police carry guns here. If you attack a Police Officer here, you’re liable to either be tasered as a best case scenario, or shot dead as a worst case scenario. Everyone know that. They carry those semi automatics on their belts and armpit holsters and we can see them.
You guys have to remember just how different British social culture is, compared to American social culture. They’re really – at two extremes. I know. I’ve been to both nations, repeatedly. And as an Aussie, our social culture straddles a mix of both American and British – trust me, I get it.
Police in the UK are not like Police in the US or AUS. In their training and in their ‘boys in blue culture’. Handing them all guns right now, is like handing a room full of men and women a bunch of guns, who have never ever ever ever handled one, let alone used one, let alone trained with one. Because they haven’t. And because British culture doesn’t accept people being shot to death by Police as a simple fact of the matter in the way that Americans do.
You guys know, if you rush at a Cop at a traffic stop in the US, you’ll be shot. We all know that. If you did that in Australia, you’d be tasered, but if you were carrying any weapon at all, you’d be shot. In Britain, they’ll try to talk you down, calm you down and de-escalate. Maybe with a whack on the shoulder with a baton if you really don’t want to calm down. Its just their way.
They’re not ‘pussies’. They’re not ‘crossing-guards’. This is their culture and so far, its worked fairly well for them. I think times are changing and the Police in the UK are going to need to address the unarmed issue – because the other alternative is going to be MARTIAL LAW. And having soldiers permanently deployed with their assault weaponry on the British streets. And I doubt myself, that Ian – or any other Brit is going to be A-OK with that idea.
As an Aussie, who had a gun license (I am seriously thinking of renewing it) – I understand the drive to own a weapon and train with it. It makes you feel safer.It makes you feel more confident that if you’re ever in a bad situation, you can protect yourself and your loved ones. Feeling it, isn’t the same as it happening in reality – but here’s hoping reality never happens.
But the British, their culture does not remotely revolve around gun ownership anymore. And the whole ‘your home is your castle’ cultural notion, is just not a mainstay in Britain as it is in the US. You guys are trying to compare apples and a bag of rock salt and then judging one or the other when there’s simply no comparison to be had.
The British need to rediscover self protection. Because their law enforcement, their government etc – isn’t doing it. That doesn’t mean guns. They’re not facing terrorists with guns. The British need to learn how to fight, to be armed with a weapon they can use effectively that they can carry on their person if need be.
They’re not weak for this. They’re not losers for this. This is how British culture has evolved, mainly due to the social engineering that occurred with New Labour. There are elements that they have to fix, elements that they have to change. But they’re not cowards or scum.
Although I will agree with the others on one thing. Ian – don’t read the Guardian. Honestly. The British mainstream media was never known to be a reliable bastion of factual reporting. The Guardian is just like the New York Times or like The Age in Australia It is a left-wing media outlet that deliberately promotes only one agenda – its own – and that is solely of the ‘progressive’ or ‘liberal’ political viewpoint. Don’t trust it. Don’t trust ANY mainstream media outlet. They’re all biased and deceitful. There are bipartisan media outlets out there. Find them and utilize them.
The Guardian’s statistics aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. Its all a bang up job to promote and prove their own opinion, that’s all.
Undaunted says
Well said, Sarah. I know there are good, strong Brit men and women. Pray God they come to dominate again.
gravenimage says
With all respect, Sarah, you can’t “calm down” a Jihad terror attack.
Sarah says
Thanks Undaunted 🙂
They will. They are human like the rest of us. The only question that remains is how long that will take and thus, what are the overall consequences of that, that the British will be forced to suffer.
Myself? I wish them very very well. As an Aussie, I’m of British ancestry, the UK is my ancestral homeland and a fellow Western nation. We need to be fighting together against this problem -because we are all facing this problem.
Sarah says
@Gravenimage
I agree completely. As I said in my stupidly over-long comment (must work on that!), the British need to rearm themselves and the British Police need to address and reconsider the unarmed policies they currently have. Because de-escalating isn’t worth a brass razoo here.
I just agree with Ian in that, its pointless handing out guns to every Cop in the UK right now. There are so many other issues that need addressing first before that could ever happen, as I’ve waffled on about and its pointless castigating them for being unarmed when up to this point, their current strategies have worked reasonably well for their society given their culture.
Besides, any American who thinks that because of gun ownership rights in America, that they are somehow safer as a result? That’s nonsense. America has had its share of terror attacks and will no doubt have more. And those attacks often included guns, very high powered guns and the Muslims committing those attacks were eventually either killed by Police or killed themselves – they weren’t bought down by hero citizens strapped to their teeth with their own cache.
gravenimage says
Sarah, your comments were not over long at all.
I just meant that calming a situation down might work in many instances–domestic violence cases, robberies gone wrong, even gang violence–but it is not going to work with Jihad terror attacks, and such an approach will just waste time.
But–with respect–there *have* been cases in the US of Jihadists being foiled by ordinary armed citizens–although not as many as some would have hoped.
At the very least, British police should be armed in the wake of this horrifying rash of Jihad terror attacks–and I say this as a granddaughter of an English police superintendent, who was very proud that police there rarely had to carry guns. Things have changed with the influx of Muslims, and this has to be acknowledged.
Sarah says
@GravenImage.
I agree completely.
Tactics that may work for them now in a variety of scenarios simply will not work with Muslims on a terror rampage.
As for the attacks foiled in America – I’ll be honest, I haven’t heard or read about them. I’ll do some Googling, I’m very happy to say I’m wrong in this case and I’m relieved to hear that ordinary Americans have in fact, done this. Our leaders and officials are not protecting us, we must protect ourselves.
You’re right – things have changed in the UK. Lessons must be learned and changes must be made immediately. Lives should not be lost, people should not be maimed or terrorized so as to cause those changes – many of us have seen this coming, but its taking innocent lives to make others sit up, wake up and take notice. And that’s inexcusable.
Ian says
No, the statistics printed in the Guardian are official statistics releaed by the US Government.
gravenimage says
Thanks for the reply, Sarah.
LR says
Sarah,
You are a good writer so your posts are not ‘long winded’…
Sarah says
@Graven, you’re welcome! ::) I tend to miss post replies with the setup on JW in the comments section – I find it a bit confusing at times.
@LR – Thank-you very much 🙂 I have heard since my early primary school years through to Uni, throughout my career – complaints from teachers and employers of being long winded in the written form, ha ha. And on other sites where if I write something that someone else takes issue with, that’s the first attack they’ll throw!
I’m just a chatterbox at heart and hate to be misconstrued, so I tend to go to great detail. But thank-you very much!
Ed Lee says
In Mexico City, where firearm ownership is generally forbidden, the edged weapon of choice is the straight razor.
Undaunted says
Actually, edged weapons are the ones most commonly used by terrorists, world-wide.
Transmaster says
The first person to confront the terrorists after they plowed through the people on the London Bridge was a London Transportation Policemen all of whom are unarmed he tried his best but he was met with a machete and was so badly injured he could continue. How different this would have been here in the States our policemen would have been armed and would have been shooting before these murderous barbarians had existed the van. It would have been something .40 S&W and the Allah Boys would have been dispatched quickly. Of course in Wyoming they would not have even made it off the bridge, civilians would have shot these beasts to doll rags. The MSNBC reporter would have accused me of being an islamophobe, and I would have looked this person in the eye and said yes I am an islamophobe, an alive islamophobe and the Islamic terrorists are dead I don’t see a problem with that do you?
Undaunted says
Nope.
gravenimage says
Good post, Transmaster.
John says
Imagine if this took place in Dallas, Houston or Lubbock, TX.
Go ahead, just try to imagine it.
CC = problem solved.
The U.K. is dead if their witless, spineless pol’s don’t wake up and smell the jihad that threatens their lives.
Oh, and where the Hell are the ‘men’ in the U.K., or Sweden, France, Germany…?
Spineless, limp-d**k girlie men who allow their women to be molested and raped.
John Harper says
If this had happened here (I’m in Houston), the musloids would have also had guns, not knives. Yes, they would have eventually been shot by a good Samaritan but not before they themselves had killed a larger number of people than their knife-wielding brothers in London.
Den says
But because these gutless animals dont fight fair, they probably wouldnt fight guns with guns, they would use something bigger like erm airoplanes
Charli Main says
For the rest of this day the British public, will no doubt, be bombarded with legions of hijabed Muslim TV interviewers shoving microphones in the faces of an endless stream of imams and other hijabied women all howling ” this is not Islam, These terrorists are not Muslims. The Koran is a book of love, peace, tolerance and compassion”.
Soon to be followed by Muslims standing on street corners holding placards ” I’m a Muslim. Give me a hug”
gravenimage says
Most likely. *Ugh*.
J. Walker says
In World War II the British stood united against the relentless attacks by Nazi Germany day and night and made sure no German made it to the shores of England alive.
Today they have basically handed over their county. Not a single citizen is armed to at least defend himself and his family in an attack. What a shame !!! Shame on Britain, their rotten establishment, their rotten politicians and their misguided and deadly policies !!!
Michael McDermott says
According to the official version, the three assailants were shot dead within eight minutes.
Matthieu Baudin says
Modern Police Forces developed in and around London early in the 19th Century as a type of community outreach to deal with crime on the streets in an organised and systematic fashion. The modern force is too professional and tied to the political will of the day and has sacrificed its community foundation. If the police are overwhelmed, having been handed an impossible job, then there is a good argument for armed citizen militias to act as a ‘ready response’ to endemic violent Jihadi outbreaks. An ongoing government policy vacuum has brought things to a head; ineffective responses accompanying an overriding indifference to preventive strategies.
Ethel Red says
I believe the Israelies after an attack, found out who the perpetrators were and found out who their family members were and proceeded with a Bulldozer to destroy all their property and their homes. With the unemployment percentage and the number of Islamists on the dole in Manchester, these funds would be stopped and let them all live, maybe back where they came from. The fellow on the news said the Manchester bomber was on the dole, used some of these funds to fly to Libiya and then to Syria to get trained and then return and kill all those people at the concert. Terrible.
Kay says
Yes. The dole outs for terrorists and their families have to stop–at the very least.
Mirren10 says
Vowls said he was throwing chairs, glasses and bottles at the attackers in a bid to stop them. “They kept coming to try to stab me … ”
I’m only surprised Vowls wasn’t arrested for assault, islamophobia, and hate speech.
gravenimage says
Grim but salient observation, MIrren.
And great to see you posing again. I am enraged at what Muslims are doing in England now.
dumbledoresarmy says
I’m just impressed by Vowls’ presence of mind. And guts. And although some posters above are waxing eloquent about how all British men are emasculated, etc, etc, etc, those posters have to ask themselves… how would *they* have reacted had *they* – as *American tourists*, and therefore HIGHLY unlikely to be toting a firearm – been there, on London Bridge, or in Brough Markets?
Vowls’ tactics were sound, given the circumstances. And he was trying to rally others. Worth reading through the account and making mental notes. And sharing the story around as widely as possible, so that ideas are placed in infidel heads – ideas of *fighting back*, of acting in self defence, teaming up.
The warrior spirit *isn’t* dead. It just needs awakening.
el Cid 2 says
1. John Lott wrote a book “More guns, less crime” – a study that proved the truth of the title.
2. Most of the murders that occur in the USA, occur among drug infested inner city young hoodlums.
3. Take away these inner city statistics and the US murder rate falls dramatically.
4. I would rather die fighting on my feet, than groveling on my knees.
Undaunted says
So, what kind of gun do you carry and what ammo do you shoot?
Undaunted says
Me? Browning HiPower 9mm with lots and lots of hi-cap mags full of Hornady Critical Duty +P hollowpoints.
Um… you?
el Cid 2 says
9 mm Glock with 15 round mag. I like a 45 ACP and a 357 mag (for one shot stop) but they are a bit heavy to carry.
Undaunted says
Okay. Just checkin’. I carried a .45 ACP for years, prefer having more bullets with the P35.
somehistory says
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/london-terror-attack-british-officials-eye-burka-ban-and-stripping-citizenship/
Interesting news story. Actually mentions muslim enclaves. and stripping citizenship from those who commit these acts, longer prison sentences, etc.
LR says
As several people have posted…Looks like it is way over due for the good citizens of Europe to ‘arm’ themselves…Of course, there are all kinds of sprays, like mace and bear spray if you don’t want/can’t get a gun..it won’t help in many situations, but better than nothing…
The only ‘better’ thing about this was the jihadi’s didn’t have guns so poor Vowls could at least try to help her…
Vowls, good on you….We need more people like you…People who don’t run away…People who care…
Thank You Vowls!!!!!!!!!