The man is on trial for threatening someone who converted from Islam to Christianity, but now he says: “I’m a normal person, I’m not a [Muslim] believer, I have Christian friends.”
That seems unlikely in light of the fact that he is on trial for threatening to kill someone who left Islam for Christianity, in accord with Islam’s death penalty for apostasy. Nonetheless, Judge Klaus-Jürgen Schmid is anxious to accommodate him. If the defendant doesn’t like Christianity, then the crucifix must go!
German authorities such as Judge Schmid, in all their marvelous respect for diversity and multiculturalism, will find that the Muslim migrants they have welcomed into the country will not reciprocate this generous self-abnegation in any way. It will eventually dawn on Judge Schmid that Islam is, in the minds of all too many of those migrants, a supremacist and authoritarian ideology that demands his conversion, subjugation, or death. But by the time he has this realization it is likely to be far too late.
“German judge removes cross during trial of Afghan migrant, faces backlash,” RT, January 25, 2018 (thanks to the Geller Report):
A Bavarian judge who ordered the crucifix to be removed from the courtroom during the trial of an Afghan migrant has faced a backlash. The defendant says he does not mind being tried under the cross.
Klaus-Juergen Schmid, a judge in the Bavarian town of Miesbach, has ordered a crucifix to be removed from the courtroom during the trial of a 21-year-old Afghan asylum-seeker accused of making death threats to another Afghan who converted to Christianity….
Explaining his move, Schmid said that there is no law that requires having a crucifix in the courtroom in the first place. He also said he wanted to show the Afghan man that his decision is not a reflection or a sign of conflict between Christians and Muslims.
“So I did not think it would be proper to convict him under the cross – that was the issue,” he said, as quoted by Bayerischer Rundfunk.
The judge said that he does not want to have the crucifix in the courtroom anymore. “After Bavarian Judicial Law was changed so that neither crosses nor headscarves should be worn by judges during trials, I do not believe it is right that religious symbols should hang in the courtroom,” he said.
The Afghan defendant, meanwhile, said he did not mind being tried under the crucifix. “I don’t care if there’s a cross hanging in the courtroom,” he told Bild newspaper, as cited by Rosenheim24.
The man, who claims to have fled Afghanistan because the Taliban threatened his father, added: “I’m a normal person, I’m not a [Muslim] believer, I have Christian friends.”
R Russell says
Dhimmi idiot.
mortimer says
Virtue-signalling apostate leftard.
J D S says
Man being tried for threatening another for converting. .”I’m a normal person” is he actually indicating that Islam is not normal or that Islamist are not normal. If so when he is back on the streets HIS life will be threatened.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
A bit more than a “backlash” is required.
christianblood says
Flavius Claudius Iulianus posted
(..A bit more than a “backlash” is required..)
Exactly! This sh…hole “judge” is disgusting, very stupid, very ignorant and animalistic and in my view, he is a thousands times worse than the jihadist muslim in the story and he should be hanged for what he did! These are the kinds of people that are sitting at the driving seat of Western societies and as long as they are in control, there is NO way the West will overcome the islamic jihadists among them.
christianblood says
Jay Boo
Don’t lull us into slumber! The situation is far worse than you think. The “Deutschland ” will be an islamic theocracy if they fight for it now. alles ist nicht gut!
christianblood says
correction:
if they don’t fight for it now.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
“Deutschland is not a Theocracy.”
Not entirely true. The state collects a “church tax” on behalf of various denominations/faiths, so they are ‘in the business.’
gravenimage says
Chirstianblood, I am disgusted by this judge. Your idea that removing a cross should get you the death penalty but that there is no problem with threatening to murder a Christian convert is very odd, though.
CRUSADER says
Well, maybe the judge was trying to show impartiality. Blind justice.
….So, is separation between mosque and state possible?
christianblood says
CRUSADER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b11-37Me_a4
CRUSADER says
“In Hoc Signo Vinces”
mortimer says
You fools! The cross is not a sign of DOMINANCE, but a symbol of self-offering in the spirit of the Golden Rule.
Your mentality is fascist. A real soldier tries to defeat the enemy without weapons and uses arms when psychology and thought fail.
Your extreme naivety does not help.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Christus Victor was the predominant understanding of Christ’s work on the Cross for the early Church.
Victory over Sin, Death and the Devil through a voluntary submission of oneself into the enemies hands, it is true, but His next coming will not be in submission but as conquering King.
When faced with islamic invasion, should we model our behavior on the first coming…or the second?
I’m not sure what is Fascist about opposing islamic invasion, and being willing to act with force if they make it necessary.
Perhaps i missed your point Mortimer, i wouldn’t be surprised.
christianblood says
Indeed!
christianblood says
CRUSADER posted
(..In Hoc Signo Vinces..)
Totum enim!
You are right. Even today ‘that sign conquers’ but it is erased, despised and banned everywhere in the Western world. Constantine the Great and the Templars knew much, much better!
christianblood says
LeftisruiningCanada posted
(..When faced with islamic invasion, should we model our behavior on the first coming…or the second?..)
When we are faced with the ruthless and murderous islamic jihadist invasion we should model our behavior the Holy Crusaders and the Saintly Templars! The True soldiers of the Cross!
christianblood says
mortimer posted
(..You fools! The cross is not a sign of DOMINANCE, but a symbol of self-offering in the spirit of the Golden Rule..)
We are not talking about “dominance” and supremacism here. We are talking about civilizational and religious self-defense and you better know the difference. Your words betray typical Western weakness, ignorance, political-correctness and spinelessness and that is the very reason why islam is so strong in the West. Who do you think will defend you from islamic jihadist invasions? Surely, you would be telling the good Christian men who stopped islamic jihadists of their time at the Gates of Vienna to turn the other cheek???
(..If you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one..)
Jesus
gravenimage says
Mortimer, defense against those who want to destroy you outright is sometimes necessary.
christianblood says
gravenimage posted
(..Mortimer, defense against those who want to destroy you outright is sometimes necessary..)
Well-said, Graven!
samdav7 says
Christianblood
+1
christianblood says
Mortimer
What about the The Battle of Tours (10 October 732) where Charles Martel and his Christian army stopped the marauding islamic jihadists all under the banner of the Holy Cross?
Or the Christian Crusaders and the Holy Templar warriors who centuries later fought on behalf of the Western Christendom? Would tell all those brave Christian warriors who saved Western Europe from murderous islamic conquest to turn the other cheek and stop defending Western Europe from islamic jihadist conquest?
Right?
Mortimer, your knowledge of global islamic jihadist threat and your understanding of islamic jihadist mentality is indeed very exceptional but your views on how Christians should defend themselves against this islamic jihadist threat is despicable and irrational! I suggest that you please light a candle for the estimated 120.000 thousand Christian men who lied down their lives, all under the banner of the holy Cross to save Western Europe from islamic conquest and you have to be thankful they did it!
christianblood says
Joe posted
(..mortimer, could you imagine if the Christian soldiers at the gates of Vienna would have had your same mentality, the Mohammedans would have easily infiltrated the Christian heartland and Europe would be just another mohammedan bunch of shitholes!..)
Very well-said, Joe!
Phil Copson says
Pre-emptive surrender by the ingratiating judge. And, of course, the defendant is not being “tried under the Cross” – he is being tried under German state law, not in a religious court.
The very fact that Schmid would use those words shows his own antipathy towards Christianity, his refusal to defend it, and an illogical willingness to give precedence to another culture.
As he seems unable to distinguish between religious/criminal/civil law, and is more interested in signalling his own willingness to comply with the presumed wishes of the defendant than in upholding the authority and impartiality of the Law, then he should be required to resign.
gravenimage says
Good post, Phil.
Monty says
Welcome to the new world order. Islam reigns supreme. And without firing a shot. “Not with a bang but a whimper”. Eliot was another way ahead of his time.
samdav7 says
I’m glad that at least someone knows that all these vicious & barbarian events in the west are a mere introduction to the “New World Order” where every single human being will become a worthless slave of the few filthy rich .. it’s all been planned hundreds of years ago and it’s happening now !
For sure we can stop it and reverse it .. just use your brain !
gravenimage says
Your idea that Islam is not a threat is *much* mistaken.
mortimer says
– 14 passages in the Koran refer to apostasy
– “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” – K. 4: 88-89
The killer of an apostate is not punished:
– Reliance of the Traveller (manual of Sharia law), ref. O8.4 : “There is no indemnity for killing an apostate (O: or any expiation, since it is killing someone who deserves to die).”
– Reliance of the Traveller: O1.2 – “The following are not subject to retaliation: -3- a Jewish or Christian subject of the Islamic state for killing an apostate from Islam (O: because a subject of the state is under its protection, while killing an apostate from Islam is without consequences)”
Frank Anderson says
I disagree with those who disagree with the judge because: You may not be familiar with Roy Moore, a judge and senatorial candidate in Alabama. Moore was elected to the Alabama Supreme Court as its Chief Justice. He was *removed* from the office *the first time* because he placed a stone monument of the Ten Commandments within the Supreme Court building, a state owned building and not Moore’s individual property (not sure who paid for it?) and did not obtain clearance from whomever clearance was required. I can’t say this law and case apply in Germany, but the deciding principle may be at least similar. Depending on who placed the crucifix in the courtroom and the purpose for it, it does display a bias against non-Christians. and would signal that bias most graphically. The crucifix belongs in the homes and churches, including any other religious activity, where it applies, but not in public buildings where *all* should expect to be treated equally, regardless of affiliation. I have no doubt little regard for islam and muslim accused; but giving them any excuse that could prevent their paying for wrongdoing because someone did not think is really ______.
How would a Jewish person take that symbol of Christian influence in light of the fervor attached for centuries in Germany to the Passion Play at Oberammergau (sp?)? How would a Jewish person feel in a theoretically universal gathering supposedly including all religions with prayers concluding “in Christ’s name WE pray”? Please consider.
demidog says
I agree the cross can not hang in a courtroom, statehouse, public school, etc, period.
Social service is not religious service. The Islamist will be tried according to civil, not biblical law.
I have no tolerance for religious exemptions across the board.
Strangerinastrangeland says
I agree. In my experience Judges go above and beyond to remove any reason for appeal just before they ‘max’ the defendant.
christianblood says
demidog posted
(.. agree the cross can not hang in a courtroom, statehouse, public school, etc, period..)
Join ISIS.
Frank Anderson says
C.B., do you really want anyone who is not your brand of Christian zealot to join IS? What makes you different from muslims, who will cheerfully kill anyone *they consider* non-muslim? Religion is religion which all should be allowed to practice as long as they allow others to practice their own in peace. Law is law, which should be applied blindly *by the state* to the religion of the parties, and without any use of the *power* of the state to cram one view or another down the throats of anyone. Please examine your view. I think you could be very alone in a challenging time. And I can assure you that I will not be joining anyone who supports views to the contrary, including you, except if I were called upon (forced under bar rules) to defend them. Then, like the outstanding lawyers who defended Adolf Eichman with every lawful argument, and in “humble imitation”, I would do my duty as a zealous and competent advocate.
Sorry, but here comes another story: The very first time I spoke as a lawyer for a client in a courtroom as a legal intern supervised by a brilliant defense attorney from the Public Defenders Office, it was for a man who was arrested and charged for DUI 1 year, 11 months, and 29 days, after a previous arrest and conviction. There was nothing to do. He was caught. In entering the plea I added a request that the judge consider any available alternative to the harsh sentence of suspending his license for 6 months/2 years (?) and fine, because he was a “yard man” who needed to drive to earn a living. My mentor was upset with my making that pitch and interrupted me. I shut up, and the judge did what he had to do under the law.
Later in chambers (the judge’s office) I apologized to the judge if I had spoken out of turn. The judge said, ‘Mr. Anderson, you are the only thing that stands between this man and the power of the entire state: IF YOU DON”T SPEAK FOR HIM WHO WILL?” Happy to say the judge went from municipal court up 2 steps to state Circuit Court (last I heard), and I have spoken quickly for my clients and self ever since. That was nearly 40 years ago. “Learn to subdue my passions. . .” could be a very worthy endeavor. (Some people may recognize those words from another source.)
christianblood says
Frank Anderson
Jesus said, “..you are either with me or against me..”. (St. Matthew 12:30). Anyone who hates the Cross or Jesus is in league with ISIS.
That is the reality,
Hollywoodized Liberalism and ISISed Islamism are the two shoulders of the same anti-Christ spirit.
samdav7 says
Frank Anderson
Let’s please don’t waste your and our time .. let’s put it in simple words
The west was found and built on CHRISTIAN doctrines !
Love Peace and Harmony !
If you don’t agree .. then please don’t waste your and our time . please just leave the west and live in a land where there’s no Christianity !
Just your mental complex !
People with a rock in their heads are too many !
Just go and enjoy your own little fantasy world !
Frank Anderson says
Sorry, Samdav7, Jews were here first and originated all that Jesus taught. He cleaned up some errors and spread the word far better. I’m not going anywhere that God does not want. And you are surely not speaking or writing for Him.
StellaSaidSo says
I agree, Frank. A court should not contain religious symbols.
christianblood says
The Cross upsets muslims and their liberal satanistic buddies!
gravenimage says
Frank, it has long been the norm to hang crucifixes in Bavarian courtrooms. The famous courtroom used for the Nuremburg Trials has a large cross:
http://europeanfocus.paintscapewordpresshost.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Courtroom600Interior2-copy.jpg
And here is a picture of another Bavarian courtroom
http://c8.alamy.com/comp/DRHJ8D/former-bayernlb-bavarian-state-bank-manager-werner-schmidt-enters-DRHJ8D.jpg
It was *not* this judge who decided to hang this cross up in his courtroom. This is the norm in southern Germany, and has been for decades.
I can see your point, and if Bavarians want to change this policy across the board, that is one thing.
But for a judge to specifically remove a cross because it might offend a Muslim who *wanted to kill a Christian* is insane dhimmitude.
I would be similarly disturbed if any dhimmi removed any religious symbol–Christian or othewise–to appease a Muslim who wanted to murder someone of that faith, lest they be offended.
Frank Anderson says
GI, with those previously unknown facts, I would have to agree with you. I just would not want to expose my client in a US courtroom with a singularly Christian symbol, however much I treasure my Christian family and friends. I also have to recognize that Bavaria is not under the Constitution of the United States which requires the absence of a *state designated* religion. I did not make up the story of the Jewish lawyer: I received it directly. Thank you for providing the missing information.
gravenimage says
Thanks for the reply and your kind comments, Frank.
And I never thought you made up the story about the Jewish lawyer–I am just appalled that an American judge would say such a thing to him. An abuse of power.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
You are erroneously applying American laws and values to other cultures. (A bad American habit that I see too often.) The Christian faith is a major part of German culture and history. Having this symbol does not make Germans intolerant of other faiths. As this ‘polezni durak’ has shown, many Germans are in fact too tolerant. (“Don’t be so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance.” – Geert Wilders)
Let me give you another example. Quebec’s national assembly has a crucifix hanging right above the speaker’s chair. Numerous attempts have been made to get it removed. All have failed. A crucifix was removed from a Quebec hospital (I believe a Mohammadan was behind this). There was a huge uproar and the crucifix was put back up. Quebeckers know that this is nothing less than an attack on their culture and their history. French Canadians “de souche” may not all be practicing Christians but they know that Christianity and Roman Catholicism played a big part in the founding of Quebec. They will not tolerate any erosion of their culture; doing so will allow others to take their home from them.
Frank Anderson says
F.C.I., surprise! You are absolutely correct! I do not pretend to know much outside the US, so US law, rules and reasoning are my only place to start. That seems to be the only way to compare and learn the differences. In this case we see a clear illustration why the Constitution addresses religion as it does, especially with the contribution you make.
Terry Gain says
Where was the uproar when Obama did virtually the same thing at Notre Dame and Georgetown? Muslims do not like crosses unless they are broken.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/04/obama-notre-dame-georgetown.html
Indiana Tom says
Muslims do not like crosses unless they are broken. Neither does Satan.
christianblood says
Indiana Tom posted
(..Muslims do not like crosses unless they are broken. Neither does Satan..)
You are right and right now muslims have an ally who also the cross with passion. The Western liberal fools like the “judge” in the story above. Muslims four things more than anything else and those four things are:
A Jew, an apostate, a pig and a christian cross!
christianblood says
correction:
who also hates the cross with passion…
christianblood says
Correction:
Muslims HATE four things more than anything else…
gravenimage says
Terry, that story was covered here at the time.
Westman says
Old free Europe appears to be allowing its own destruction: It has given up Christianity without replacing it with an equivalent set of standards; sliding into a form of loose socialism-communism that is its own “religion”, buttressed only by law. Not facing the actual costs of its defense, Europe has been untested by war for two generations, gotten fat on the subsidy of defense costs, and become too selfish to replace itself through procreation.
Even as an Agnostic, it is easy to see that Germany’s abandonment of Christianity for a new unproven ideology, one that refuses to accept reality in place of the delusion of creating a “new” social utopia, will lead to the inability to recognize and resist internal seditious enemies.
What could possibly go wrong by inviting millions of dole-seeking Muslims, 80% men, into Germany and then “reuniting” their families? Would 13% Muslims keep this, “I do not believe it is right that religious symbols should hang in the courtroom”, judge busy?
LeftisruiningCanada says
+1
It might be possible to say that the communism they are following has been proven several times to be entirely destructive and evil.
Frank Anderson says
Left. . .,
1. I think “they” know but they don’t care that their plan has never worked.
2. I don’t think they have any other plan, because all real imagination and creativity has been forced out of their thinking and system as long as it/they (Communism-Socialism/Islam) have existed. Thinking requires the ability to question, test, disagree and change. To me that is why for example Hitler despised Jews and Masons in the same breath. Both hinge on free unlimited thought. *Many* revolutions were started and won by Masonic leaders including the US Revolution. Examples: Simon Bolivar and Benito Juarez. That terrifies the terrorists. I surely think it is a good idea to repeat that effect whenever possible.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“1. I think “they” know but they don’t care that their plan has never worked.”
Likely. As with Socialists and muslims i have talked to, they all suppose that previous attempts to realize their pet theories ‘didn’t do it right’, but that trying it again with their own personally recommended methods would probably work instead.
christianblood says
Westman
NO spineless society can stand and fight for long and secularism and ‘freedom’ cannot fill that need!
gravenimage says
I see Christianblood is ranting against freedom again. He has done this many times here, and has said he hates freedom far more than he does the horrors of Islam.
LeftisruiningCanada says
He would do well to define “Freedom” for us, and avoid any further confusion.
christianblood says
gravenimage
What is “freedom”? Could you define it?
gravenimage says
One of the finest pieces on Freedom is John Stuart Mill’s classic essay, “On Liberty”:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/34901/34901-h/34901-h.htm
Sadly, it does not surprise me that Christianblood does not really know what freedom is, and hence considers it no better than tyranny.
christianblood says
gravenimage
Again, what is ‘Freedom?’ Why don’t you define it?
Champ says
“Again, what is ‘Freedom?’ Why don’t you define it?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sigh. What game is “christianblood” playing now? Tiresome …
samdav7 says
Westman
you’re concentrating on the cross in the courtroom ( for whatever hateful reasons ) and forgetting about the serious crime in the courtroom !
I can tell that you are an atheist .. No problem there .. but I can assure you that at the end .. CHRIST will win.
Keep your hate .. you’ll need it !
Traian imperator says
They should use an imam as judge also. Muslims don’t recognise non muslim judge as valid.
Frank Anderson says
Does it matter whether the accused “recognizes” the judge? The only people who matter are the guards, warden and executioner (if any).
gravenimage says
True–pious Muslims do not recognized Infidel judges and courts.
MFritz says
Ah, this is FUNNY like hell! Since it was Bavaria, of all federal countries, that wanted to KEEP the cross in the class rooms! Hell, they even FOUGHT for it up to the highest German court!
And now? A muslim CRIMINAL comes along and out goes the cross…
gravenimage says
True–I remember the fight to keep the cross in classrooms from the ’90s.
Billy Chickens says
Every time I look up I want to rip the crescent moon out of the sky.
christianblood says
Billy Chickens
Every time a liberal or an islamist look up and see a Cross on a wall, their satanic spirit is deeply troubled and they want to rip it from the wall.
CRUSADER says
Just wait a week, the crescent alters….
But, with each day, the Sun always rises!!!
“In Hoc Signo Vinces !”
+++++++++++++++++
D- E -U- S V- U- L- T
DHazard says
Doesn’t he know that “real” Muslims believe Jesus was the prophet Issa, and it’s OK for Muslims to have respect for him. The only reason they want to kill Christians is because of a minor difference, they don’t believe the fundamental facts on which Christianity is based. Like, Jesus dying on the cross (or even being on the cross), and the resurrection (didn’t happen but Muslims mostly believe he raised the dead), and Jesus being the son of God. And they also have a rather disturbing story about how Mary be.came impregnated.
So if the judge really wanted to signal how awesome he is then he should just drop all charges, convert to Islam and blow up the courthouse. Even then he would still be a second class ex-something Muslim.
The leftist media would certainly comply with the judges intentions by issuing calls warning of possible hate crimes against Muslims that never happen.
gravenimage says
+1
Indiana Tom says
The Cross upsets those possessed by Satan.
Frank Anderson says
I.T. a cross in a government courtroom also gives a Jewish lawyer, client, party or witness cause to feel out of place. I know of a particular case that I will not name the judge or the lawyer, because the lawyer asked otherwise, where the lawyer was told “He would not do well” in the judge’s court because “He had not been saved”. The lawyer moved to another community. Whatever religious fervor or conviction the judge may have, that has no place whatever in a United States courtroom. I cannot tell you, or others, if any religious symbols appear in Israeli courtrooms, but I would predict, subject to correction from someone who knows better, that they do not.
gravenimage says
Frank, all the pictures of Israeli courtrooms I have seen have an image of a menorah flanked by olive branches, including in the supreme court:
https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2012/12/high-court-Dec.-4-e1467921530477.jpg
https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2016/05/F160117NS71-1024×640.jpg
This is the symbol of the State of Israel.
Yet, Germany and Israel are some of the nations with the best and most equitable justice systems. It is not as though non-Jews in Israel or non-Christians in German are treated differently under the law.
Infidels in Dar-al-Islam sure are, though.
Frank Anderson says
GI, that is the menorah, the symbol of the miracle of the lamp that did not have enough oil, but burned anyway for 8 days until ritually proper oil could be prepared after one of Israel’s victories over tyranny. I’m sure that better and more detailed stories and explanations are available. As Jews teach universal respect to all, including the utter sanctity of an *honest* court (re: Adolf Eichman), the menorah should probably taken with comfort by anyone who does not wish the destruction of Israel and the murder of all Jews.
The Cross starts as a symbol of the murder of a man which has been portrayed for nearly 2,000 years as the will of *all Jews from then to now and forever* (Passion Play at Oberammergau, for example) instead of a Roman executed murder that was actively brought about by collaborating priests and others pretending to be Jews. The Romans held the vestments, robes, ornaments, decorations, vessels and had strict control over the priests. If the priests, High and otherwise. wanted to be priests and live a highly favored and privileged life while every one else suffered, they towed the Roman line.
Ask a Jew, especially a Rabbi, whom I think will say that is why there have been no priests, nor sacrificial altars, anywhere in Judaism any time since the Temple was destroyed in 70 C.E., just as Jesus predicted before his crucifixion. Read the book, Jews, God and History by Max Dimont. While we cannot “prove” the resurrection of his body, we can see the daily importance of the resurrection of his memory, wisdom, spirit and inspiration to us every day. He is with us as long as we remember; and he wants us as much today as 2,000 years ago to live, be free, and be together, not split apart in divisions..
gravenimage says
Dear Frank–with all respect–your idea that the cross is an intrinsically antisemitic symbol is mistaken.
gravenimage says
And Frank, if a judge told a lawyer that “he would not do well” in his court because “he had not been saved”, then this is not just a sickening abuse of power, but is illegal. I hope this lawyer reported this judge.
Frank Anderson says
This happened. He would not dare. He moved to the other end of the state. And of course it was illegal and signals what is called a “habit or routine practice.” Remember “bearing false witness” is so important that it is one of the Ten Commandments, contrary to islam where lying, bearing false witness whenever advantage can be obtained, is encouraged.
gravenimage says
Frank, sorry to hear that this judge is abusing his power–and that he has people too cowed to stand up to him. Sorry for your friend–very disturbing.
Frank Anderson says
GI, please, Honored Lady, the great promise from God himself (I can’t handle the concept of a genderless God: please forgive me if it offends): “Justice is Mine, sayeth the Lord. I shall repay.” God has and will handle this at no loss or danger to others. The lawyer did quite well here, far better than I because he is a better lawyer, and moved to another city when his daughters went to college.
gravenimage says
I’m not offended at all, Frank.
Frank Anderson says
GI, in this society laden with widespread evil and discourtesy, Dale Carnegie’s proposition that “courtesy is the lubricant of society” is vital to wading through this foul mess to a better day.
Indiana Tom says
I.T. a cross in a government courtroom also gives a Jewish lawyer, client, party or witness cause to feel out of place.’Alls sorts of symbols offend people. The swastika used to not be a big deal either and I have ancestral family portraits from 1913 with them in the photo.
I know we had a Jewish teacher who used to just love to adorn Star of David symbols in a public school classroom, Christian symbols were verboten of course.
Frank Anderson says
In the US, courtrooms in particular, and government buildings in general, are supposed to be religiously neutral. Any display of religious preference has to be careful and within applicable rules. I have found a number of places, not in government buildings, where zealots have destroyed the neutrality and general respect that should be afforded to all those who are present, and found other places to go. Just because a zealot ignores the law does not mean he also changes it. Ask TWICE FORMER Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore. One place in particular turned “in Christ’s name WE pray” into “Jews are not welcome here”. That was and is intolerable and defeats the whole concept of the fraternity.
When I was driving an 18 wheeler, Indiana was one of the best places to drive with good roads, a fair speed limit and really nice people.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Both correct
christianblood says
Indiana Tom posted
(..The Cross upsets those possessed by Satan..) It indeed does!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b11-37Me_a4
dapto says
And quickly replaces the cross with a swastika
gravenimage says
That, or the Islamic crescent moon…
Lydia Church says
The cross belongs everywhere.
The only valid prayer is the one in Jesus’ name.
To remove the cross is to deny Jesus, something a person who claims to be a Christian can never do, even if someone else hung it up.
The whole ‘enchilada’ belongs to Jesus, who is the Victor, and yes, He will return to claim it and set up His kingdom… everywhere.
There is no place that is ‘off limits’ for prayer, worship, evangelism. We have the right whether or not it is acknowledged by the powers that be, often who will never do so. That did not stop the apostles, nor will it stop us.
I get that not all get this. But that is another matter. We see it and call out the wrong.
When the cross is removed, society gets worse, not better.
If there is an ‘interfaith’ prayer, then I must leave the room because I don’t acknowledge other faiths and Christianity can never mix with them (only the false kind, or it becomes so when it does).
That is what the antichrist system will look like.
A one world religion made up of only all the false ones (including atheism).
A one world government ‘tyranny’.
A one world economic system (mark of the beast).
All under antichrist. It won’t claim to be satanic of course, but of course it will be.
Just wait.
You will see.
And they won’t have too many crosses around either….
Lydia Church says
And even total skeptics must admit… it is looking more like this in every way all the time…. no borders, no walls, outrage like at the Davos thing, ‘inter-religious’ dialogue that accepts all but us ‘fundamentalist Christians,’ who are their cross hairs target…., bringing in the migrants for purposes of ‘multiculturalism,’ of which we see the obvious, true, and sinister agenda, the chip implants, etc. etc.
Laugh now,….. cry later.
Frank Anderson says
L.C. it looks to me like you are just as lost as any muslim fanatic. Jesus under all accounts I have seen moved freely and happily among all people, even those who didn’t accept his teachings at the moment. Jesus almost certainly never heard the word Christ, which I believe, and always subject to correction, is taught by Catholics in their Catechism to be the invention of Paul/Saul. Jesus, if he lived, which we cannot prove and must take on faith alone, was a Jew. According to many Jews, he was the first well-known Reform Jew teaching much the same as the Reform Jewish movement that started in Germany in the early 1800’s. I have compared Christian and Reform Jewish teachings intensely for about 25 years; and have found 2 major differences in the face of more similarities than I care to count.
1) NO Jew worships humans or wants to be worshiped. God is God and we are ALL God’s Children. We have a choice to accept that Fatherhood and His guidance or to reject it as muslims do under islam.
2) Sin is error, not a reason to inflict guilt. Guilt is the worst form of slavery that we impose on ourselves contrary to the second lesson of Exodus (God does not want ANY of His Children (all who call upon Him as Father) to live in any form of slavery). (The first lesson is that no matter how well things start, they change.)
As long as you live in your own world of exclusion and supremacy I would predict you will not have the companions and support needed to prevent the ongoing Islamic conquest which deprives everyone of freedom. Jesus was a healer who brought good people together. Believe it or not, I find his example worthy.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Forgive the intrusion, but i could not help noticing a question regarding a thing which interests me, namely, that of whether Yeshua ever heard the word ” Meshiach” or not.
If it is acceptable, i would direct readers to John 4:21-26, Matthew 16:15-17 and also John 7:25-31
From these passages, if the New Testament is accorded any veracity, it would appear that He did indeed hear, and affirm, Himself being referred to as Meshiach.
Frank Anderson says
Left. . ., I welcome your contribution on this or any other topic. The books of the New Testament were written long after Jesus’s crucifixion by people who were not there on a lot of inspiration and multiple tellings (I ask and recommend strongly reading for example Who Wrote the New Testament by Burton Mack)
I think it is possible he may have heard the word messiah, but I also think as a Jewish man, he would have understood that word quite differently than Christians (That is what I have been told by a Rabbi). Please ask a real Rabbi, who has 5 years after a Bachelor’s degree, for the details of the meaning. By all accounts and reason, Jesus was a Jewish man, who knew Jewish teaching far better and in more detail than most, lived a Jewish life and attended Jewish services. He is considered by many Jews to be the first well-known Reform Jew, among many earlier and lesser known reformers.
I am sure that in more or less 2,000 years a lot of argument has gone on, including the dreaded subject of the divinity of Jesus, which I asked a wonderful Th.D professor who was preaching for several years at a Baptist church where I believe I am known on good terms. He referred me to research the topic Christology. It seems the early church had a big theological fight over divinity that was finally settled when someone in power said basically, “Enough. He’s divine. That’s it. End of discussion.”
See, Jews God and History please. Until the ancient Romans get the proper blame for murdering Jesus, for killing in 3 wars over a million (estimated closer to 2) Jews, for many tens of thousands by crucifixion in addition to Jesus, and for the utterly false and slanderous account of Jesus’ “trial” and murder, Jews will still be blamed for something they did not do, and for taking blame for something when they never agreed to accept for all eternity. See Deut 24:16, paraphrased, The father shall not be held (punished) for the sins of the son; nor shall the son be held for the sins of the father. So HOW could all Jews for ALL TIME be responsible for a murder 2,000 years ago? And then HOW could a “crowd” 2,000 years ago confess and commit every Jew who ever lives to guilt for that murder? I’d like to know? To me it defies reason and logic as much as any teaching of islam. Love the quote from a fraternity “borrowed” from higher sources, “Ask and it shall be answered; seek and ye shall find; knock and the door will be opened unto you!” Best wishes always.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Well thanks Frank. Your comments are always appreciated too.
For sake of brevity, i’ll just reply to each paragraph of yours.
1) In terms of length of time between events and inscription, we aren’t talking a lot really. Even if the first Gospel account was written 20 years after the events, the events would of necessity be fresh in their minds as they had been preaching the same messages during those years. There is much evidence to suggest eyewitnesses were involved in the writing. And of course, Jesus did promise that He would ensure that their memories would be assisted.
If we are going to deny supernatural help, then the Torah is subject to the same standards. As for manuscript evidence, we have papyrus going back to the early 2nd century, which is great deal closer to the time of the events than anything in the Tanakh. Not that i doubt either you understand.
2) It’s true, there were several ideas about what the Meshiach would be like and do. But there were also some ideas revolving around the suffering servant mentioned in Isaiah 53. The title “son of man” is highly significant also.
3)The big theological fight you refer to may well be the Arian Controversy, which did indeed almost become accepted as the orthodox belief for a while during the 4th century. The first Council of Nicea, which did have some input from Constantine as to the ‘homousios’ clause (which seems to have been mediated to him via his Bishop), but the Arian party actually became more dominant afterwards because of political support. Thankfully the debate was eventually won by the Biblically correct position that we have today.
There are of course those that still hold to different understanding, the Watchtower being the main proponent of kind of Arianism today.
4) The idea that every single Jew is guilty in Christ’s death is of course abhorrent, and is not supported by the New Testament. I know that some quarters of the visible Church have believed that through the years, though things have and are changing. I have come to the conclusion that this is just another example of finding an excuse for antisemitism, that itself comes from another source.
(Jesus said that He gives His life of His own accord, that nobody takes it from Him, and Acts 4 makes it quite clear that Christ’s Crucifixion was the Father’s arrangement)
I am happy to provide supporting documents for any of the statements above, though i suspect there is not much new there for you 🙂
regards and respect.
Frank Anderson says
Left. . ., the Jews I know, especially the Rabbis, readily acknowledge that the Torah is not “perfect”. I have written before and will try to repeat briefly what I heard the first time a friend invited me to visit a Reform Jewish congregation:
1. Wisdom speaks for itself. It is its own authority without regard to source or location.
2. Wisdom is all around us, in the Bible (even both sides of the Book) and elsewhere. Wherever wisdom is in the hands of humans (including the Torah) there is always some measure of both error and deception. The challenge is to find the Wisdom, hear it and put it to work in our lives.
3. Ask every question repeatedly. Wisdom (the Truth) has nothing to fear from questions. Each time a question is asked and a better answer is sought, Wisdom comes through clearer and brighter but never complete. We will not know ALL in this life. Only when we see God in person will we know ALL.
This is what compelled me 25 years ago to learn more, and for which I will be grateful to God for revealing. I have seen over that time sincere effort made daily to search for and apply that Wisdom instead of just finding some answer and sitting. Having lived “on both sides of the Book” with family and friends, peace and understanding can bring people together who *need* to be together in the face of absolute evil. “Don’t sweat the small stuff,” to me is a good place to start.
I want to say the decree determining the divinity of Jesus I mentioned came in the mid 100’s C.E.
Peace, in the most complete and comprehensive form imaginable,(Shalom) be with you, with us and between us. We share good things to do.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“I want to say the decree determining the divinity of Jesus I mentioned came in the mid 100’s C.E.”
Can’t think of what that might have been then if the date range is as you say. Anything of the importance and universality you suggest would have been difficult to effect before 313ad, seeing as there was quite a bit of persecution going on. That tended to keep things somewhat low key and localized, at least compared to later periods.
Wonder what it might be?
“Peace, in the most complete and comprehensive form imaginable,(Shalom) be with you, with us and between us. We share good things to do.”
Absolutely, Shalom Shalom.
Frank Anderson says
Left. . ., I don’t use Google because I don’t want them tracking me. On Duckduckgo I remember searching the word Christology and believe Wikipedia, one of my regular stops, had an article. I can be in error, but I do my best to avoid being a “false witness”.
gravenimage says
Lydia, Christians don’t impose Christianity on others.
StellaSaidSo says
‘…I don’t acknowledge other faiths and Christianity can never mix with them…’
Christianity has shown itself quite capable of acknowledging and mixing with other faiths. If you can do neither, you are no different from the most devout Mohammedan.
Presumably you would opt to stand alone at the barricades, rather than have those dreadful people of other faiths or of no faith standing beside you.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Just as a matter of point, It is unlikely that she would be killing those that disagree with her.
StellaSaidSo says
LOL, not much of a recommendation for her version of Christianity, is it?.
Thank God most Christians are more Christian in their attitude toward others!
LeftisruiningCanada says
I meant it so as to distinguish LC from being “no different from the most devout Mohammedan”, which of course i believe that she is…very different in many ways.
LeftisruiningCanada says
On the other point, i myself would be most glad to have those of other faiths or no faith beside me if it should come to the point of barricades against whatever may wish to destroy the lot of us.
But i might call a prayer in the name of Jesus, and the heck with you if anyone doesn’t like it 😉
StellaSaidSo says
Yep, we’re all in this together. I don’t care what prayers or incantations or expletives or mantras are uttered at the barricades, so long as everyone is doing their utmost to give the enemy the thrashing he deserves!
gravenimage says
Agreed, LeftisruiningCanada and Stella–I stand with *all* who oppose the horrors of Islam.
gravenimage says
Germany: Judge removes crucifix from courtroom in trial of Muslim who threatened a convert to Christianity
……………………….
This cringing dhimmitude is not only disgusting in itself, it also makes us all less safe.
LR says
“Pre-emptive surrender by the ingratiating judge. And, of course, the defendant is not being “tried under the Cross” – he is being tried under German state law, not in a religious court.”…
That’s why I do not understand this Judge at all…It’s a courtroom, not a religious tribunal.
He is being stupid.
gravenimage says
He is bowing the sensibilities of someone who wants to murder him.