This is a significant statement since, unless you count the Islamic State, the Ottoman Empire was the last caliphate — the last state to claim the allegiance of all Muslims worldwide, and to present itself as the government to which all Muslims owed allegiance.
But Kemal Ataturk, the founder of secular Turkey, would have disagreed with Erdogan. Ataturk established the Turkish Republic as a repudiation of the Ottomans. He abolished the caliphate and sent the last caliph into exile. He outlawed public manifestations of Islamic piety such as turbans, and mandated the wearing of Western-style hats, declaring that “the civilized world is far ahead of us. We have no choice but to catch up. It is time to stop nonsense, such as ‘should we or should we not wear hats?’ We shall adopt hats along with all other works of Western civilization. Uncivilized people are doomed to be trodden under the feet of civilized people.”
Hats were more than just headgear: because of their brims, they interfered with the prostrations that were and are an essential element of Muslim prayer. He also mandated that Turkish be written in Roman rather than Arabic characters, and forbade imams from preaching anything other than the sermons they received from the Ministry of Religious Affairs, which never sent sermons touching on political aspects of Islam. Ataturk placed other restrictions on Islamic practices, and introduced secular, Western-style marriage laws. “Islam,” said Ataturk, “this theology of an immoral Arab, is a dead thing.” But he hadn’t reckoned on Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
“Turkish Republic is continuation of Ottomans: President Erdoğan,” Hürriyet Daily News, February 10, 2018 (thanks to Fjordman):
The Republic of Turkey is a continuation of the Ottoman Empire, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said on Feb. 10.
“The Republic of Turkey, just like our previous states that are a continuation of one another, is also a continuation of the Ottomans,” Erdoğan said in remarks he made during a commemoration ceremony to mark the centenary of the death of Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid II at the Yıldız Palace in Istanbul.
“Of course, the borders have changed. Forms of government have changed… But the essence is the same, soul is the same, even many institutions are the same.”
Erdoğan added this is why Sultan Abdulhamid is one of the “most important, most visionary and most strategic minded” individual that made his mark in recent 150 years.
Sultan Abdulhamid II, the son of Sultan Abdulmecid, died in 1918, and was the 34th sultan of the Ottoman Empire.
Erdoğan also criticized those with “bigoted” viewpoints about Sultan Abdulhamid.
“Some people insistently try to start this country’s history from 1923. Some unrelentingly try to break us from our roots and ancient values,” he added.
Erdoğan said the big picture brings character and memory to a nation.
“We take pride in our history without making discrimination,” the leader added on the day eleven Turkish soldiers were killed in cross-border operations….
Isntlam says
Very enlightening history lesson on Turkey.
Sons of Liberty says
I wonder if he will tell everyone how the Ottomans murdered 1.3 MILLION Armenian Christians starting in 1915 ? And, we must not forget how the Muslim Ottomans tried to collect on the LIFE insurance of many of the murdered Christians that they had purchased with American insurance companies ! Should the world be glad that Erdogan wants ANOTHER Ottoman caliphate ? I think NOT ! That we be a continuation of the Islamic CURSE on the world.
Guy Forester says
Even under Attaturk and later, the Turks purged the large Greek communities from Turkey. They took over the north of Cyprus. Unfortunately, Attaturk could not undo centuries of religious indoctrination.
The only thing surprising here is it took this long for the real Turkey to show its face. Once again, Christians and Jews are being persecuted in Turkey.
gravenimage says
The Armenian Genocide–which would actually better be described as a genocide against all Christians; Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, and Levantines–started under the Ottoman Empire and continued under the “Young Turks” and finally even under Ataturk, culminating in the horrifying destruction of Smyrna in 1922.
It’s the one thing they all had in common…
And there have been paroxisms of violence sine then, as well–like attacks on the few remaining Greek Christians in Istanbul in the 1950s, and the murder of Armenian newspaper editor Hrant Dink a few years ago.
There are only a handful of Jews and Christians remaining in Turkey today–but none of them are really safe.
Richard says
This reminds me of the Shah restoring he Persian Empire. So, is Erdogan planning on resigning his office and installing a descendant of Abdulhamid? I sincerely doubt it. If he does, he should keep in mind that the tradition was that when the reigning sultan died and one of his sons was installed in his place, that son would have all his brothers strangled. That would mean Erdogan would be, ergo, GONE!
gravenimage says
I’m sure Erdogan can just invent the appropriate lineage for himself. He is already ipso facto dictator in Turkey–he’s been in power since 2003.
BC says
When is Nato going to wake up to the fact that Turkey should not be in the organisation? It is fighting against the forces supported by NATO countries, he Erdogan, is doing military deals with Russia. He obviously thinks he is going to be the caliph of the next Caliphate. He does not seem to recognise that most Arabs do not like the TURKS and will not accept his hegemony
J D S says
Well what does one do when a leader such as this is actually undermining an organization made up of countries that support each other in the region…one kicks them out……Turkey once might have played some part in keeping the peace and helped NATO but this idiot is becoming a liability. Even though a msn like Ataturk might have many flaws one like him would sure be a great improvement. What to do…What to do?????
Peter says
I’m telling you the fish was THIS big !
Sam says
Turrkey had a chance to become a free western country. Like other Muslim countries Turks can not get rid of the wrath of Mohhamad “the perfect man”
I am so happy that I left that country 40 years ago. But I hate seeing clueless liberals enabling Islam right here in Columbus, OH.
Humanity is strange. How can we be so stupid when it comes to Islam? God help us!
Older Canadian says
Sam
Political correctness is the 21st century tool used to implement socialism, which is a prelude to communism, the absolute controlling idelogy.
The world is now controlled by a small group of elites who think they are superior to all and are special.
The roles are the same, only the actors and the words they use to define their utopia, or how to achieve it is slightly different. This is how it has always been. History keeps repeating itself, over and over and over.
Be glad you have Trump and not Trudeau. There will always be an America, but Canada is falling fast.
I am a history and cultural anthropology buff. Nothing is going on that is new, just on a much wider scale.
Roderick MacUalraig says
Yeah, but ?? is far from lost. You have Ezra, Jordan, Lindsay, that veteran that told off Justin.
There’s hope.
Joy D. Brower says
And lots of very good, sensible and dedicated political conservatives, to boot! But it is ALWAYS a challenge to dispute and discredit the MSM in ALL Western countries – including Canada and the USA. All is not (YET!) lost, but we need to rededicate our efforts to purging society of all but the most placid of Muslim sects!
Robin says
How did you put that ?? there?
Roderick MacUalraig says
Was using my iphone keypad. Pretty cool little device.
gravenimage says
Glad you got out, Sam. But yes–now the threat is encroaching here in the West.
philcic says
“For nearly five hundred years, these rules and theories of an Arab Shaikh and the interpretations of generations of lazy and good-for-nothing priests have decided the civil and criminal law of Turkey. They have decided the form of the Constitution, the details of the lives of each Turk, his food, his hours of rising and sleeping the shape of his clothes, the routine of the midwife who produced his children, what he learned in his schools, his customs, his thoughts-even his most intimate habits. Islam – this theology of an immoral Arab – is a dead thing. Possibly it might have suited tribes in the desert. It is no good for modern, progressive state. God’s revelation! There is no God! These are only the chains by which the priests and bad rulers bound the people down. A ruler who needs religion is a weakling. No weaklings should rule.”
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
Roderick MacUalraig says
I agree with Mustafa.
Guy Forester says
This fits with the mentality of a number of people that I have interacted with that are from various areas of the middle east. The person looked to for guidance there is a strong man. He orders others around. See, that way you do not need to think. All you do is go to work and follow what the great leader said.
BTW, this is why the armies over there got beaten in WW1 and why the small IDF wins. The average person is taught to obey and follow. Creativity, independence, and an open mind can actually get you killed. So, take out the central control, and the majority of the military is now unable to act effectively.
It appears to me that Turkey is looking to a blind leader for guidance and will follow blindly into a disaster.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Erdogan is a hero restoring Turkey’s past glory and leadership in muslim world taken away by apostate idiot Ataturk (May Allah curse him).with that Turkey Will continue recording tremendous progress as we have winessed highest economic growth during Erdorgan’s tenure, which Turkey ad never recorded throughout its history.
Billy Chickens says
Ataturk was right – Arabs are immoral when infused in islamic “theology” from the filthy evil quran.
IQ al Rassooli says
Ibrahim, like every Muslim on Earth you do not have even TWO brain cells of LOGIC when addressing the subjects of Religion, History and Politics
Allah has been CURSING Muslims for the last 1400 years (forget ALL the deceitful propaganda of Muslims) because Ummat Muhammad is the LEAST Productive Inventive and Creative in human history BUT the MOST Destructive Deceptive Hate mongering Warmongering Racist Duplicitous Intolerant and Ungodly in human history
Hopefully enough patriotic Europeans and Americans will WAKE up and deal with Muslims in the only way they understand and respect: Extreme Violence
IQ al Rassooli
Kafir & Proud!
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Low IQ, you forget that the Satan (holy spirit) has reduced you filthy mithraist christians to beasts reviving Stone âge way of life. Hence, thé worst of mankind as you look líke monkeys.
cjk says
You adore a creep who liked to have sex with a little, hairless, 9 year old child and think God Almighty sanctions that type of perverse behavior.
I guess that answers the IQ question.
StellaSaidSo says
And who, exactly, is ‘reviving the stone age way of life’? Erdogan, that’s who.
Champ says
“ibrahim itace muhammed” wrote:
“…Satan (holy spirit) has reduced you filthy mithraist christians to beasts reviving Stone âge way of life. Hence, thé worst of mankind as you look líke monkeys.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The imbecile continues with his futile campaign to level the playing field by erroneously applying what’s completely *true* about islam, to Christianity–but no one here is buying his nonsense.
No Fear says
Mohammed was the whitest prophet!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZxH4QYLRQY
gravenimage says
Jay Boo, I don’t think we have more than one Ibrahim itace muhammed here. He always sounds the same.
Blangwort says
That depends upon what your interpretation of “progress” means.
If by “progress” you mean the return to genocidal behavior such as the slaughter of the Armenians, then yes, that’s true.
If by “progress” you mean the mismanagement of territories throughout the middle east, then yes, that’s true.
If by “progress” you mean the return to a supremacist, undemocratic regime, then yes, that’s true.
But don’t let “little things” like that bother you. Continue head-long in to the past.
Just don’t come crying to anyone when other nations decide that they want none of this and your economy of Islamic Paradise collapses. You asked for this, you deserve everything that comes of it.
May God have mercy on your soul. We won’t.
Robin says
Turkey/Ottoman has a distinguished history of military incompetence. First seige of Vienna failed, the huge second seige of Vienna devastingly failed, and from thereon on the back foot.
And looks like they are doing a re-enactment right now with the Kurds. I doubt if they will be capturing Paris to liberate Prof Ramadan for some while yet.
Ray Jarman says
Robin, You are wrong as the Turks have the weapons and man power. It took them several hundred years but finally in 1493 (the year after Columbus sailed the ocean blue) Byzantine’s final battle was lost and Constantinople was only history. This was one of the worst things to have happened in history; even worse than Athens’ loss to Sparta.
Robin says
Not really. It took the jihadists about 800 years to eventually capture Constantinople, by which time it was a very ancient and tired city. Things do wear out eventually, especially institutionally. And it was after that that the Ottomans had their two defeats at Vienna. You could just as unsoundly argue that ISIS are a military threat because of their expansion before their subsequent setbacks. And meanwhile Islam is in its terminal crisis caused by for first time millions of Allah’s perfect book being available to read and compare with the sci/tech of the Kuffar world.
Ray Jarman says
I disagree since if the Europeans and the Church had mounted a force to fend off the Ottomans, Constantinople would have withstood the siege. It was more like a war of attrition in both material as well abled body men and over time the moral weakened even though the rulers were strong. Similarly, America must not permit Erdogan to slaughter the Kurds and like the Armenians, they should be granted their own statehood within a contiguous land mass with either Erbil or Diyarbakir as its capital.
Robin says
“IF” is historical fiction rather than anything factual. A conquerer only has to be victorious once. Constantinople withstood the Jihadists for 700 years. It only fell once in all that time. As I said, institutions become tired, decadented, and weakened, just like various current institutions and dcountries aren’t half what they were – the Royal Society, hundreds of “universities” now cesspits of pseudo-excellence, and just this week, major “charities” such as Oxfam riddled with decadence. And Islam currently in a state of collapse of credibility. Rather than surprise it was captured, the real remarkable thing is that it wasn’t for so long.
Ray Jarman says
Robin, IF is not historical fiction. It is more of a way to learn from the past by studying the mistakes and hopefully learning from them though I am not that optimistic at this point. It seems that we only react when pushed against the wall and massive destruction of life ensues. Had the Roman Catholic Church aided its Eastern Brothers and mounted a huge army to not only save Constantinople but to prevent much of the bloodshed that has occurred in the world. If we do not learn from history, then what chance has the West?
Robin says
Robin, IF is not historical fiction.”.
That is such a ridiculous sentence that I didn’t bother reading the rest. There is tons of like nonsense on quora.com
“IF there had been an African empire instead of a British…”
“IF US hadn’t joined in ww2”
IF a circle had three sides and corners.
IF 2 + 2 – 5
IF the sky was green.
IF your nonsense was sense.
gravenimage says
I agree, Ray–if the West had come to the aid of Constantinople in an organized way–there were a few Europeans in the defense, but not enough–then she likely would have withheld against the assault.
A fairly small matter, but Constantinople fell in 1453, not 1493.
R Russell says
Ibrahim
This is old news. Don’t you remember the dove which landed on his head as an auspicious sign of his being caliph? That was in Aug 2015.
He has been worshipped as caliph/sultan for some time now and as head of the OIC had told Muslims everywhere in December to take Jerusalem back from the Jews.
Erdogan is in Syria right now taking Syria back as part of the Levant.
He has threatened Greece so they better be on their guard.
Don’t worry Ibrahim, The YHWH God of Israel will protect his people the Jews.
Thousands of Muslims across the Middle East are becoming Christians, finding the Bible Jesus to be a wonderful friend.
You can’t be friends with your Allah. He doesn’t love you enough to befriend you. He wants you to kill for him.
It’s so sad that your Allah wants you to die as a shahid in order to be sure of entering paradise.
The Bible Jesus is so different. He died to take the punishment of your sins so you can join him in heaven.
1. you die for your Allah as a sacrifice. You never get to know him.
2. Bible Jesus dies for you as a sacrifice. He becomes your friend.
I know what is the better deal.
Ibrahim, choose the Bible Jesus – he loves you very much.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Not right now He doesn’t. Ibrahim abides under the wrath of the Triune God, Who would judge him accordingly.
Repentance and faith in Christ is the only way for Ibrahim to escape his condemnation.
John Stefan Obeda says
LeftCanada, You write: “Not right now He doesn’t? The word “He” refers to the Holy Trinity, I take it. Doesn’t the true God love all of the people of the world even before, finally, somebody repents? He surely does. Of course, what you perhaps are saying is that unless a person acknowledges his sins and repents of them, the love that God has for him he rejects, and, therefore, he doesn’t have the blessed benefit of God’s love. Isn’t that so terribly unfortunate. Ibrahim would make a good Christian even as the apostle Paul was made to be a faithful Christian. If only Ibrahim would come to his senses as the apostle Paul did. I would vote for the idea that Jesus, risen from the dead, would, indeed, also appear before Ibrahim and tell him too: “Why are you persecuting Me?”
LeftisruiningCanada says
Hi John,
You’ll likely know this more throughly than i do, but from my understanding it would be correct to say that apart from the general love for mankind described in Matthew 5:45 (your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust), we are all under the wrath of God and are children of wrath by nature (John 3:36, Eph 2:3) until regenerated, (Titus 3), and who are currently being tolerated for the sake of the elect (Rom 9:22) and are awaiting the wrath to come (Matt 3:7).
It is, as always, something i would be happy to discuss with one who, i think, has been a Lutheran pastor.
It is my prayer also that Mr Ibrahim would be brought to repentance and faith in our Savior Chris Jesus. He so very obviously needs to be set free from the kingdom of darkness.
LeftisruiningCanada says
That should read Christ Jesus, obviously. I don’t know who Chris Jesus is, but he is unlikely to be much of a savior. Probably a nice guy, and perhaps a good one to find decent tamales with, but not God in flesh i’m sure.
Ray Jarman says
You are absolutely correct and one more for your list of our Savior is that through his atonement, we will stand next to him at our Heavenly Father’s feet. I really don’t expect the follower of the cult to change his mind.
Billy Chickens says
I think it was a partridge that landed on his head. They were releasing doves and partridges and the bird on his head definitely was not a white dove but rather a darker bird with striped feathers.
Older Canadian says
You are no longer entertaining.
Goodbye
Ray Jarman says
+1
Roderick MacUalraig says
Past glory of genocide.
Chand says
Ataturk was a major force in the modernization of Muslims and Turkey. People like Ataturk are needed in every Muslim nation. Muslims can only progress if they transcend Islamism.
gravenimage says
Pious Muslims were not modernized–they were sidelined.
And the problem is not “Islamism”, but Islam itself. Ataturk knew this.
Billy Chickens says
Big Black Mithra Mecca Rock worshiper Ibrahim:
Filthy Islam was spawned from the filthy mind of the filthy Devil who told filthy Muhammad that he was Filthy Allah and to write his filthy words down in the filthy Quran.
gravenimage says
Ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:
Erdogan is a hero restoring Turkey’s past glory and leadership in muslim world taken away by apostate idiot Ataturk (May Allah curse him).
…………………………
The Ottoman Empire was known as the “sick man of Europe” because it was so stagnant and backward. Ataturk tried to drag Turkey into the 20th century–imperfect, but this accounted for any progress Turkey made during the last century.
More:
with that Turkey Will continue recording tremendous progress as we have winessed highest economic growth during Erdorgan’s tenure, which Turkey ad never recorded throughout its history.
…………………………
Not really. Any gains Turkey has made in recent years are the result of residual secular policies put in place before Islamization.
Unless, of course, Ibrahim itace muhammed wants to see the economy there based on slavery of Infidels, as it was under the Ottomans. Given his often stated enthusiasm for enslaving unbelievers, it would not surprise me…
More:
Low IQ, you forget that the Satan (holy spirit) has reduced you filthy mithraist christians to beasts reviving Stone âge way of life. Hence, thé worst of mankind as you look líke monkeys.
…………………………
This is how pious Muslims like Ibrahim itace muhammed characterize freedom, democracy, and innovation. He much prefers oppression, tyranny, and brutality under the horror of Shari’ah law.
Ray Jarman says
Graven, You stated, “Unless, of course, Ibrahim itace muhammed wants to see the economy there based on slavery of Infidels, as it was under the Ottomans. Given his often stated enthusiasm for enslaving unbelievers, it would not surprise me…” You could have added that the Ottoman Empire was supported by the heavy taxation upon the nations/states it ruled. Without the taxes from all over the Middle East, the caliph would have never lasted very long. By the way, I hope you are not expecting our friend, Ibrahim, to actually think about the work you put into rebuffing his ill thought out writings.
gravenimage says
True, Ray.
And no–I don’t expect anything but threats and invective from the appalling Ibrahim itace muhammed.
I only counter his ugliness for any interested Infidels here.
dan christensen says
Erdogan will be visiting EU topdog Juncker in march.
He is trying to force EU to allow turkish nationals visa-free travel to EU.
In reality he tries to get rid of the rebel kurds without having to kill them.
utis says
I’m so surprised. I saw this coming years ago: the official bodyguards in their pretty dresses — historical uniforms, the return of religion in the schools (Ataturk must be rolling over in his grave).
So how do the sniveling modern globalists deal with this Turkish identity deal (there are echt Turks and then there’s everybody else). Not really one-world is it — unless you mean one world Ottoman Empire.
You don’t have to be psychic to know what’s coming next: appeal to the Turks in Europe (especially Germany) to unite under him, subdue the natives and call him Sultan. He has been campaigning in Germany for Turkish voters whom the Germans let vote in foreign elections. Wait till the “guest workers” vote for a Turkish Germany.
gravenimage says
Grimly likely. He has already made disturbing overtures to Turkish Muslims in Germany.
Infidel says
Erdogan is a DOG and a terrorist numero-uno.. A plainly disgusting Islamist supremacist… who would not hesitate to behead the next non-Muslim standing next to him if given even a slight chance of getting away with it..
Niftikhar Arsalift says
Experienced in goat husbandry.
END PC says
The Republic of Turkey is a continuation of the Ottoman Empire? They tried to conquer all of Europe for Allah, were stopped only by Christian forces. Since as early as the early 14th century the Turks raided the islands and cities of Greece for slaves. The Ottomans ended the Byzantine Empire with the 1453 conquest of Constantinople.
Its empire controlled most of Southeast Europe, parts of Central Europe, Western Asia, parts of Eastern Europe and the Caucasus, North Africa, and the Horn of Africa.
Erdogan is simply proclaiming Turkey to be the enemy of Western Civilization.
elee says
They didn’t start enslaving people in the 14th century. They did this from the beginning of Islam and never stopped.
Roderick MacUalraig says
I think END PC was speaking of the Turk’s slave raiding specifically.
We all know Muzz in general are fans of slavery and have been since Pisslam began.
Up into the present hour in fact.
cjk says
Unfortunately it looks like they’re gonna win it all this time.
Even an evil god like Allah will defeat no God like what The West currently has
Roderick MacUalraig says
Funny.
gravenimage says
All true.
seabird says
How interesting, by admitting “Turkey is a continuation of the Ottoman Empire”, it can now be held directly responsible for the genocide of about 3 million Christian subjects as well as its
mass-murder of Kurds and Yezidis and is legally responsible for hundreds of billions of dollars in reparations.
It would also mean that as the last indigenous minority in any significant numbers left in Turkey,
the Kurds (including the PKK) are not terrorists as Erdogan claims but freedom fighters bravely fighting against a criminal genocidal State.
Thank you Sultan Erdogan for your honesty.
Sons of Liberty says
Yes indeed !
Roderick MacUalraig says
Brilliant.
Gjallarhornet says
He could have added “We stole most of Turkey from Christendom – by violence. Let’s be proud of it”.
That just about would sum him up.
On a geostrategical note, the problem is that NATO needs Turkey. An Turkey allied with Russia is a disaster, speelingthe choke point of Bosporos gone and unrestricted access to the sea for Russia. Erdogan, of course knows this. He’s got us by the balls, and he’s enjoying the squeeze.
So, from the perspective of the west, with a Turkey that must stay in NATO and this guy, who clearly is not a friend – he will have to vacate the position sooner or later. It is a very dangerous game -islamising the one big country who had broken free of the shackles of islam, and turning it against his own people and his foreign friends, us, who is in no position to ass kick his country out
Indiana Tom says
Turkey allied with Russia is a disaster,
Maybe for Turkey as Vlad Putin is still in power.
Gjallarhornet says
Yes, but even tough Vlad (Putin) is tough on islam when Russia decides it is in their interest to be so they are equally lax on islam most of of the time. This due to the huge muslim presence in Russia and the fact the Russian state is constructed as an mulit-ethnic empire, not a Russian supremacy national state, which would not work. The country would unravel.
And the Russians would hardly give a rat’s ass for Erdogans islamism should Turkey turn around and hook up with Russia. It would be a *supreme* advancement for Russia, and you can bet the Turks would be given a lot of slack. Turke and Russia are traditional enemies. Imagine the enemy just coming over, with the major gift of enormously increasing your global power as well – Russia wouldn’t want to be mean to them then.
As for the West, I think they’ve decided to wait it out. Erdogan systems derives from him. Without him, it would cease. And, as any man, Erodgan can die of natural causes, be removed or something can happen. Pretty sure thats how NATO is thinking: just to wait and see, maybe something happens. The Gulen putch attempt shows that a lot of things can.
seabird says
NATO can’t afford to “wait it out”.
It’s scheduled to provide Turkey with about 120 F-35’s.
Only a lunatic would provide wmd’s to a megalomaniac wannabe Caliph like
Erdogan.
gravenimage says
True–Putin is very inconsistent when it comes to opposing Jihad.
elee says
Be aware that Erdogan’s AKP buddies have recently taken to proclaiming that he will be Caliph by 2023 and levy jizya on the world. Oh and also that he’s taken to quoting pro-Nazi poet Necip Fazil Kisakurek (1904-1983) in public of late.
After all the lives lost, did “we” really win the war in 1945?
Roderick MacUalraig says
Bought some time, maybe. With lots of blood.
Blangwort says
Nobody really “wins” a war. They lose less than the losing side. And since we fought against totalitarian genocidal hatred, we couldn’t bring ourselves to erase their culture. So we bought time.
The price of peace is eternal vigilance. We have been distracted of late. We are not as vigilant as we once were.
The only thing I would wish upon Erdogan is for him to get everything he asks for and have it all backfire on him.
Roderick MacUalraig says
True and good words. But sad, too.
Ray Jarman says
Blangwort, I agree with you sentiments but part of the reasons for WWI, WWII as well as Korea is that we were unprepared. There were many contributing factors for WWI as Von Bismark stated, those damned Balkans are going to get us into a war. England’s pushing the Russians to invade Deutschland through Danzig where General Samsonov’s army was totally defeated, the Italians invasion into Northern Africa and the only time I know about William Jennings Bryan ever being correct was when he stated to Wilson that America should build up for the European war for which he was rebuked. America was eventually forced into the conflict much too late to prevent the mass destruction and loss of life that took place. The only good thing to come out of that war was the Balfour Declaration. After the disastrous Treaty of Versailles America once again recused itself from the matters of the world and the Europeans and British thought they could appease Hitler and the results are well known. At the end of WWII, America withdrew once again and President Truman made the mistake of stating that Korea was not of our concern and within months Mac Arthur was asked to lead the UN forces to drive the North Koreans back to the 38th parallel. Once again as I stated above, Carter let the world down by sabotaging peace in the Middle East for which I hope he spends time at allah’s feet kissing muhammad’s behind in Hell.
Ray Jarman says
Correction: I meant to say in another opine rather than above.
Robin says
“Nobody really “wins” a war”.
NONSENSE. The arms trade wins ALL wars and needs them which is why they have to arrange a continuous supply of them. Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine… just some of the latest.
gravenimage says
I see “Robin” is pretending that Jihad is not a threat, but that it is all the fault of the arms trade. Uh huh…
Robin says
“I see “Robin” is pretending that Jihad is not a threat, but that it is all the fault of the arms trade.”
Whereas I see that “gravenimage” is incapable of stopping slanderously grossly misrepresenting others here, even after it being pointed out. He/she/it superbly exhibits his/her/its incompetence day by day here.
I pretended nothing of the sort. Few people spend more time than myself exposing the reality of jihad.
Two inter-related phenomena have been going on in recent decades. Firstly the quran-driven Jihad which has just continued from the time of when the “prophet” started it. Secondly the Military-Industrial Complex warned of by Eisenhower, which has been manufactuing a steady succession of profitable wars around the word ever since they nuked Japan and also bombed the “evil” North Korea back to the stone age (since when they have been further persecuting it for the resulting low living standards of much of the population). The full list of US-caused wars is far too long for me to remember here but just a selection is…
Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine. There have also been numerous “regime changes” such as the 2014 coup “revolution” in Ukr.
The problem for the US is that they don’t have a large, useful land area and are not separated by wide seas, and are consequently very vulnerable to invasion by evil regimes. And despite that they have a famously exemplary record of racial harmony.
I can imagine that this “gravenimage” lives in that same sector of the US, where the culture is to kick someone in the face and then sue for compensation for the damage to your boot.
gravenimage says
Yes–the free world *did* win the war against Fascism.
That does not mean that we will never face another threat–Communism and Islam have both threatened us since. That does not mean that our bravely facing down Fascism was in vain.
Robin says
“Yes–the free world *did* win the war against Fascism.”
Huhuhuh. The greed-globalist propaganda certainly won the war for your brain.
We have had the intolerant repressive fascism of Politically-Correct pseudo-democracy ever since its brute-force victory in 1945. Just no one ever told you so you didn’t notice it!
gravenimage says
I see that “Robin” describes our defense against Fascism as a “brute-force victory”–another creep lamenting that we didn’t just roll over for the Nazis. *Ugh*.
Robin says
“another creep lamenting”
another -> stereotypiing language
creep -> cheap abusive ad hom
lamenting -> I did not lament, I merely stated.
The fact is that your uncivilly-mannered style-attitude is not confined to that Ibrahim guy but your way of responding to another who brings a different perspective here.
And in what way was the defeat of the Third Reich not a brute force victory? Massive war crimes were committed by Churchill and co and yet you would prefer us to fantasise that the triumph of PC globalism was achieved by some victory of intellectual discussion instead.
Your delusory drivel about “the free world” speaks for itself. This is of course the “free world” in which RS and PG are “free” to be prevented from visiting the uk, and in which any prospect of democratic free debate about immigration was fascistically stamped out by the expulsion of Enoch Powell and sacking of anyone asserted to be “racist” ever since.
It remains the case that: “The greed-globalist propaganda certainly won the war for your brain.” All you can offer in response is childish insult-words.
gravenimage says
“Robin” wrote:
“another creep lamenting”
another -> stereotypiing language
creep -> cheap abusive ad hom
lamenting -> I did not lament, I merely stated.
…………………………..
“Robin” certainly appears to be lamenting that the Fascists did not win. As for my referring to “another”, we do occasionally find those here who opine that it would have been better if the Nazis had won. Luckily, they are vanishingly rare. As for considering someone who champions the Fascists to be a creep, really, that is quite mild language.
More:
The fact is that your uncivilly-mannered style-attitude is not confined to that Ibrahim guy but your way of responding to another who brings a different perspective here.
…………………………..
“A different perspective”–well, yes. After all, few people here consider our not having been conquered by the Nazis to be a *bad* thing.
And I see that he is castigating me for being “uncivil” to a Jihadist who champions Muslims raping women and children and mass slaughtering Infidels.
I see the company he keeps. Now, *that* is telling. *Ugh*.
More:
And in what way was the defeat of the Third Reich not a brute force victory? Massive war crimes were committed by Churchill and co and yet you would prefer us to fantasise that the triumph of PC globalism was achieved by some victory of intellectual discussion instead.
…………………………..
Oh, good grief. Yes, we had to use force in a defensive war to defeat Fascism and end the Holocaust. No, ending the Holocaust is not a “war crime”.
And characterizing the Allies as “PC globalism” is sickeningly false. In fact, “political corretness” was quite rare until recently, and this does not spring from our having defeated Fascism as “Robin” pretends.
More:
Your delusory drivel about “the free world” speaks for itself. This is of course the “free world” in which RS and PG are “free” to be prevented from visiting the uk, and in which any prospect of democratic free debate about immigration was fascistically stamped out by the expulsion of Enoch Powell and sacking of anyone asserted to be “racist” ever since.
…………………………..
Well, this is just calumny. Anyone who knows my posting history is well aware that I have *never* supported the erosion of free speech in the West, particularly as it endangers us re the Jihad.
The idea that there was more freedom of speech under Hitler, however, is just absurd.
Moreover, Hitler was quite enamored of Islam, as most people hear at Jihad Watch know very well. I suppose “Robin” hopes we have missed this.
And I see “Robin” is sneering at the whole idea of the free world. Does this surprise anyone?
More:
It remains the case that: “The greed-globalist propaganda certainly won the war for your brain.” All you can offer in response is childish insult-words.
…………………………..
No–standing against Fascism–just like standing against Islam–is *not* childish.
I stand against all forms of totalitarianism, as do all good Anti-Jihadists here.
Robin says
A person such as “gravenimage” who writes outrightly grossly slanderous gross misrepresentations of what another says does not deserve a reply.
You had the opportunity for mutually useful learning and teaching. Instead you turned it into an exhibition of self-shaming, just as well you hide behind a pseudo, because pseudo is all you are. So good riddance.
gravenimage says
The idea that good people here should “learn” from someone lauding Fascism is just sickening.
Most of us–including Robert Spencer–oppose Islam because we stand against all forms of totalitarianism. That someone is trying to use this forum to flog their fondness for the Nazis and sneering at the very concept of freedom is just appalling.
Robin says
“gravenimage” concocting a defence of his/her/its untrue slanders by following up with more of the same. Any decent readers can see for themselves that I said and did none of the things he/she/it falsely asserts I do.
gravenimage says
“Robin” is certainly correct that his comments speak for themselves. *Ugh*.
Ray Jarman says
Graven, Is this Robin another Ibrahim Muhammad? His arguments or maybe rants are about as ludicrous.
I yield to your opinion about our discussion over Turkey. Right now all that matters is that Erdogan is held at bay and that the US and other NATO forces there should prepare for a quick departure from Anatolia. Turkey is at this time trying to take on Greece over drilling rights off Cyprus and control of navigation. I think Turkey is playing a dangerous game in which it cannot win.
gravenimage says
Hi, Ray. “Robin” certainly seems like it–even if he is less illiterate.
I very much agree with you as regards Turkey today. Erdogan is involved in more and more saber rattling, with Israel, Greece, and other parts of Europe. And at this point, Erdogan is issuing lightly veiled threats to kill Americans allying with Kurdish forces against ISIS. Very troubling.
Clearly, Turkey is not an ally of the US or the rest of the West. They do not belong in NATO. I agree that we should pull out of Turkey. That may indeed make logistice in the region more difficult, as some have noted–but it is wiser than trusting Erdogan.
Ray Jarman says
Graven, If the US were to enlarge the Naval Air Station Sigonella, I think that Incirlik could be abandoned. The base is beautifully located and I still think that Mrs. Clinton and Hussein should have been held responsible for not supporting those in Benghazi for it was only an hour or so from there. I lost a very dear friend, Sean Smith, that day and the sad thing is that he voted for Hussein. We worked together in Baghdad and had many a discussion about him. He was like a girl watching the Beatles in the 60s and his mother Patricia was a hard core Hussein supporter. She learned the hard way about Mrs. Clinton’s perfidy and Hussein’s cowardice.
Jerry Zavage says
“The Ottoman empire, which eventually replaced the Arab’s caliphate, was a pure plunder machine. It had to continuously make new conquests and depredations to pay the soldiers upon which its absolute power depended.” —- from :”A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race, and Human History” – Nicholas Wade
gravenimage says
Spot on. Islam is stagnant when it is not brutally conquering Infidels.
Ray Jarman says
Mr. Spenser, you omitted an important part of the Kemal Constitution which was that the military was obliged to intervene when an Islamic based political/religious party attempted to gain power. Erdogan circumvented this by installing his own military leadership and smashing the last attempt of the military to rein in his ignoring the Constitution.
It seems that the Syrian Kurdistan people are in his sights now for destruction. They are the modern day Armenians in which he is using as justification to invade Syria and Iraq is probably not far behind. Were I to write a novel, I might use this background to juxtapose it with WWI and the Young Turks. Only more death and destruction lay ahead for Europe, the Middle East to include Turkey and much of North Africa.
I personally feel that none of this would be occurring had the Europeans accepted the Turks into the European Union in the 1970s. The Europeans were and are still myopic and history has proven this to be true. They were afraid of a Turkish influx into the workforce and the universities. Had these young Turkish men and women (Mustafa Kemal hated the hijab more than the Fes) been allowed at the time to travel to Northern Europe, they would most likely have returned home on visits to show off their new wealth to their impoverished villages where they could have made changes for the better. Erdogan has been able to use the European attitude against them to abolish the Kemal hope for a modern Turkey and a full integration into the European mindset is lost. Now the Europeans do really need a good optometrist to provide glasses or contact lenses for their myopia. They wanted cheap labour to be used in their factories and to use the taxes derived from the products to fund their welfare states but instead they have lost revenue and have paid billions to house and increase the police and internal intelligence forces. Maybe they will learn from Erdogan’s actions as well as a open new front to fight the plague of peccancy from the Middle East and Africa.
StellaSaidSo says
Good points, RayJarman. I believe you are right about Europe’s mistake in failing to accept Turkey into the EU in the 1970s, when Turkey was (relatively) modern, secular, and looking to be part of ‘the West’.
Roderick MacUalraig says
Lots of Muzz were wanting the secular capitalistic goodness decades ago, yes?
They were recently trounced though with their friends the Nazis so that’s to be expected.
But there’s always the knowledgable imams around to stir up the youngsters with the truth of the faith, yes?
So I think history has shown that even if there’s a time where a militant ideology can moderate itself for a small time, the blueprint of its design will eventually resurface.
It has founding stories, founding traditions & documents that will take charge.
For each Ataturk there are thousands of genocidal and superstitious zealots
ready to blindly lead and follow millions more into a bloody oblivion.
Ray Jarman says
Roderick, your point is valid but I think that had the peanut farmer from Georgia not stabbed the Shah of Iran in the back at the urging of his whining wife, the Middle East would not be where it is today and 9/11 would never have happened. I know it sounds far fetched but think about what happened as a result. Iran would have remained strong and Saddam Hussein would have never attacked Iran and draining its reserves and thus trying to steal oil from Kuwait. No American intervention under UN auspices and certainly no second invasion of Iraq. Also the Russians invaded Afghanistan later in 1979 and America’s aid to the mujahidin would never have occurred which Bin Laden credits for part of his 9/11 attack. I do not feel that there would have been an Arab Spring that Obama so dearly loved (who knows, maybe with no Iraq conflict there may have been no Obama in the WH) Turkey may not have felt inclined to elect a thug like Erdogan. So, I think that if I were to write a PHD thesis, I would choose this subject.
Roderick MacUalraig says
To speculate on alternative history scenarios can be fun & interesting no doubt. I don’t have all the answers, Mate.
Whether there are more secular & liberal minded leaders for a period of time or not, however, seems not to make much difference when so much of the culture is driven by a totalitarian & illiberal foundation.
I think faced with such a strong cultural current that what individual Western leaders do or don’t do amount to little. Actually I think the chief responsibility of a secular and liberal Western leader that cares about his countrymen should be to NOT be involved in the affairs of Islamic nations and to keep them out of OUR nations.
Having said that I am for helping the unfortunate people that find themselves persecuted by the Muzz in Islamic dominated lands. And I’m certainly for smashing terrorists that harm Americans wherever they have their camps and training & logistics facilities set up.
Other than that stay out of their business so they can all kill each other off. And the sooner the better for the rest of the human beings aboard the Earth that are tired of dealing with their fanatical, superstitious and genocidal bullshit.
Ray Jarman says
No argument except that when they fight each other, there seems to be a lot of collateral damage.
gravenimage says
Ray Jarman wrote:
I personally feel that none of this would be occurring had the Europeans accepted the Turks into the European Union in the 1970s. The Europeans were and are still myopic and history has proven this to be true. They were afraid of a Turkish influx into the workforce and the universities. Had these young Turkish men and women (Mustafa Kemal hated the hijab more than the Fes) been allowed at the time to travel to Northern Europe, they would most likely have returned home on visits to show off their new wealth to their impoverished villages where they could have made changes for the better. Erdogan has been able to use the European attitude against them to abolish the Kemal hope for a modern Turkey and a full integration into the European mindset is lost…
…………………………
*Really*, Ray?
There are plenty of Turks who started coming in to Europe–espcially Germany–in the 1970s, and lots of them have returned to Turkey either on vacations or for good since then.
Somehow, this never stopped the Turks from largely embracing re-Islamization under Erdogan. That idea that it would have if Turkey had become part of the EU in the 1970s. (Never mind that this would have been impossible, in any case, since the EU only dates to 1993).
This just would have allowed even more Muslim Turks to flood into Europe proper, just accellerating that Islamization of Europe.
In any case, the idea that Islam would have been defanged if not for the mean old Infidels is often flogged by Muslims–but is obvious bs. Islam has been waging violent Jihad against the Infidels for 1400 years now–is this all the fault of the EU?
The idea that the main thing driving pious Muslims is economics is silly, in any case–were this the case, then Muslims could have just rejected the retarding effects of Islam long since, and joined the modern world.
This is the usual “terrorism is caused by poverty”–but this has been debunked many times.
Ultimately, this is just more blaming the Infidels for Muslims victimizing them. I have to say I am surprised to see this from you, Ray.
As for Europeans being castigated for fearing a huge influx of Muslims, I believe that recent events have proven their concerns to be quite corrrect.
Ray Jarman says
Graven, You are correct in that I miss stated the year for the EU but I still contend that Erdogan would not have been elected in the first place had the EU accepted Turkey. The Turks that you mentioned as being in German as “Gastarbeiter” is different than the educated Turks seeking a real university education. The gastarbeiters were from the small villages and at the time I saw some of these young men boarding a bus to work in Germany, I thought to myself that they are courageous leaving home knowing nothing of the world past their village limits. Yes they revisited their homes in Turkey and they also caused a few problems because they were led to believe falsely that the Germans would offer them citizenship as they did not understand the term “guest worker” and Germany was put under pressure to change their rules as some in the US seem to think that because someone can pick strawberries, they should be given citizenship. But back to my assertion that Turkey would be different today if they had been permitted EU acceptance, I contend that the economies would have been intertwined in a way that would have made it more difficult for Erdogan to gain power as the comingling of the French and German economies after WWII helped to bring peace and relative prosperity to both nations. When a nation is shunned, it most likely will look to acceptance even if it is back to the past.
gravenimage says
Hi, Ray.
It was Turkey itself that pressured West Germany to include them in their guest worker program, that had originally just included European nations like Italy, Spain, and Greece.
And actually few Turkish Gastarbeiter ever returned to Turkey–that is, indeed, most of the problem.
And, actually, many of these original Muslim Turks have little interest in becoming full German citizens. Their children are now automatic German citizens if born there, as most of them are.
And I don’t believe that Europe is “shunning” Turkey by not accepting them as part of the EU–anymore than they are shunning Egypt, Morocco, or any other non-European Muslim country. (Of course, a sliver of Turkey is geographically in Europe, but most of it is in Asia–and it is certainly not European in culture).
And Europe has a population of about 500 million–I have to admit I don’t think that their suddenly having an additional 80 million Muslims–even if they are considered “moderate”–would have been in any way salubrious for Europe.
Given how aggressive Muslims are, I think it far more likely they would have influenced Europe for the worse, rather than Europe influencing them for the better.
And Turkey does not exist in a vacuum–many Muslim nations have become increasinly Islamized, including Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, and others. Most of these countries are not directly influenced by Europe or the rest of the West at all.
I can see why you would like to consider Turkey a bulwark against Islam, but I don’t think that Europe itself ever had the power to achieve that.
By the way, most European Gastarbeiter who worked in Germany either returned home or fully integrated inot German society. Despite arriving in many cases as illiterate peasants, they or their children are now often college-educated profressionals. This is far less likely to be the case with Muslims.
In any case, despite our difference of opinion here, I have enjoyed our exchange. I always look for your comments.
Indiana Tom says
“Islam,” said Ataturk, “this theology of an immoral Arab,
What more can I say?
Older Canadian says
Surprise? No.
Knowing what makes this guy tick, of course he worships the good old days and wants it back for his own grandeur. And like all leaders of all countries for his own personal egotistical and fiinancial benefit.
He wanted admission to the Eu. That didn’t work out……yet,……so……..
Ray Jarman says
It was Kenan Evren and other Turkish leaders who strove for Turkish integration into the European fabric. Part of Turkey is on European soil. I stated my reasons why I think that Turkey is under Islamic control today in an earlier comment.
gravenimage says
Turkey is under Islamic control because they are an almost entirely Muslim country, having slaughtered or driven out most of their Infidel population. Any blunting of the influence of Islam was bound to have been temporary.
The idea that if only Europe had been *even more* welcoming to hordes of Invading Muslims that all would have been well simply makes no sense.
MFritz says
If Erdogan means “Turkey is now going full shithole country”, he’s right.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Sadly, this is probably correct.
Sorry for all those freedom loving Turks who oppose the islamic takeover.
MFritz says
Alas, the problem already began with modern Turkey’s origins. Ataturk forced modern ideals on the Turkish state and guaranteed democracy through the military. So, the military was basically the keeper of Turkish democracy and Western laicistic standards for decades. Which isn’t actually very democratic (and similar to Spain).
Along came Erdogan who systematically replaced the military’s leaders with his cronies. And now the take-over is complete. His strongest voter base are now the islamists and through him they enforce sharia law upon the country.
And I don’t see a reverse of this development coming. Even if Erdogan was replaced, which is highly unlikely without his death and/or a revolution.
Over the years democracy has lost a lot of “grip” in Turkish society – which has its modern base mostly in the big cities. And the social issues (overpopulation, economic struggle) rather help the islamists. (Very similar to Algeria btw, just with the corrupt political leadership being in league with radical islam.)
And god knows who or what is coming after Erdogan!
No, Turkey will go very bad in the coming years. Think along the lines of Egypt and/or Iran.
MFritz says
Don’t troll me, Jay Boo.
MFritz says
Just look how LONG it took these countries to change! After DECADES of oppression – like Iran. And the process is not even finished, so they STILL could fall back to worse! I’m not optimistic. Not as long as our politicians pander to the leaders of Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. And sell them weapons.
gravenimage says
With all respect, Jay Boo, while Egypt would have been even worse under the Muslim Brotherhood, there is still little freedom there, and the opression of Christians and atheists there is rife.
As for Iran, while I have the greatest respect for those who marched against the Mullahs, they seemed to be a small group, and the brief flash of resistance there may already be over. Participants are now being imprisoned and murdered by the regime there.
If Egypt and Iran are the best we can point to as proof of “Islamism” making little headway in the Muslim world, I think we are in trouble.
Garfield says
I kept saying Turkey would pipe up and start being an agitator, squirmy opportunistic little tyrant that he is. But people don’t want to believe that these islamofacists smell power and start planning chaos. They don’t wake up, they don’t evolve. They live saturated in hate and act accordingly.
Con men. Liars. Deluded megalomaniacs.
Tired of Islamic supremacist bullshit.
Richie says
If Turkey were admitted into the EU, how long before Europe would completely collapse?
gravenimage says
It would certainly get a lot worse. Thank goodness Europe has resisted this.
Eric jones says
Erdogan and Futullah Gulan worked together for ten years to radicalize Turkey. Then they had a falling out. Gulan now resides in the USA under the welcome of the CIA. Gulan now has private schools here spreading Islam in the USA.
What will Trump do if Turkish troops kill American solders working with Kurds?
We must get our house in order. We must sever ties with Turkey. Erdogan has risen under the guise of being a NATO ally. Erdogan is an enemy of the USA, not an ally.
Eric
gravenimage says
Turkey is not our ally.
CRUSADER says
” Do not go gentle into that good night ”
( Dylan Thomas, 1914 – 1953 )
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
~ From The Poems of Dylan Thomas
(also, inspired presidential speech for….”Independence Day” 1996 movie)
sidney penny says
President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan,sorry I mean Sultan Recep Tayyip Erdoğan
Check out his palace and tell me why he likes Sultan Abdulhamid.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-29932148/erdogan-presidential-palace-in-60-seconds
A controversial new 1,000-room palace built for Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan cost about £385m ($615m) – nearly twice the previous estimate, Turkish officials say.
Baucent says
This all explains the recent actions of the Turkish army in northern Syria; expanding the borders to claim back old Ottoman territory. Turkey should be expelled from both NATO and any hope of EU membership rejected completely.
Nancy Albert says
Not mentioned in this article is Ataturk banned polygamy, the source of extra men who became Ottoman military conscripts. These fighters collected mercenary booty and enslaved women for harems. He also banned the head-scarf, opened universities to women and changed the curriculum to Western civilization.
It’s a miracle which led to economic prosperity without oil revenue. It quickly pacified the most warlike people on earth. The Muslim menace could be significantly ameliorated should this political revolution be adopted across the Muslim world.
Mario says
Erdogan himself is goergian.
Turkey as a nation was created literally by Ataturk, who was at least half Albanian.
Turkey is a a nation based on multi ethnic base…. even nowdays there are at least 6-9 million turks of ful and partial Albanian blood, 4 million of bosnian blood, 4-5 million of circissian blood and millions of assimilated kurds and local anatolians.
Ottoman Empire was a multi ethnic and milti religious empire based on e tolerant islamic caliphate.
If erdogan wants turkey to be the successor of the Ottoman Empire, he has to change the constitution and change the identity of modern turks
gravenimage says
Mario wrote:
Ottoman Empire was a multi ethnic and milti religious empire based on e tolerant islamic caliphate.
……………………………
Mario, I’m afraid you know little of history.
The Ottoman Empire brutally conquered large swaths of eastern Europe, and then imposed crushing Jizya and the barbaric Janissary system on Christians. Christians had to supply boys for the Janissaries and girls for the Harems and sex slave markets. This “tithe” was the Devshirme system.
And when the Ottomans finally ended this system under Western pressure, not long afterwards they turned on their Christian population and drove or slaughtered up to 1.5 million of them–almost the entire Christian population.
Surely you have heard of the Armenian Genocide?
There was *nothing* tolerant about any of this.
Mario says
Actuallu you are pretty ignorant about this.
It is known that the Ottoman Empire was multi ethnic and multi cultural and had no ethnic philia or domination officially in it, even though it was dominated in military and political posts by Albanians and anatolians.
It was much more tolerant that arabic caliphates for example that destroyed every path and evidences of christianity, while the Ottomans did not even touch the Orthodox Church for example.
As for the Devshirme, the Devshirme system did not work any more from 1556 and was even stopped officially in 1630. This system was abolished 350 years before the fall of the empire. Christian girls were taken in the harems, that is true, but many went with their own desire. Many serbian princesses went in harem with the approval of their own father for example
Janissary guard an dimperial guard was composed mostly by converted muslim Albanians ( that didnt give a shit too much about Allah anyway) and not by christian boys.
Ottomans did not ended because of western pressure, but because Albanians cucked the empire several times ( read about Halik Patrona, Ali Pashe Tepelena, Bushati rulers and Mohammed Ali of Egypt), because Albanians started to neglect the empire , especially after 1850, because of the corruption, because of the lack of industrialization and because of the intervention of Orthodox Russia.
The Armenian genocide is a big shame, but Armenians had 35 years that were working against the Ottoman empire, even though the sutlan had given them privileged trading positions.
You should have passed though arab caliphates to see what intolerance was.
gravenimage says
Mario wrote, among other things:
Actuallu (sic) you are pretty ignorant about this…
The Armenian genocide is a big shame, but Armenians had 35 years that were working against the Ottoman empire, even though the sutlan had given them privileged trading positions.
You should have passed though arab caliphates to see what intolerance was.
………………………….
Ah–we’ve heard *this* before–the claim that it was actually the Armenian Christians who were the aggressors, despite being a small and oppressed minority, and hence the poor Muslim Turks had no option but to slaughter virtually all the Christians left in Turkey–including Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, and Levantines–an estimated 1.5 million people.
There are only a small handful of Christians surviving in Turkey today.
Christians in Turkey fell from 25% in the late 19th century to 5.5% in 1927, to about 0.2% today.
Somehow I have a difficult time considering genocide to be “tolerant”, I have to say.
gravenimage says
Erdogan: Turkish Republic is continuation of Ottomans
………………………..
The Ottomans–barbaric, genocidal, stagnant, a failed state–what’s not to like? sarc/off
As noted, though, Erdogan is trying to position himself as the new Caliph.