While discussing the history of the Koran in Europe during a televised interview on the Arabic-language program, “Allah Knows,” Dr. Ali Gom‘a, one of Egypt’s foremost clerics, said that early European translations of the Koran were rooted in Christian desires to learn more about Islam and its language, Arabic. But then he made the following assertion:
The [European/Catholic] Church at that time was preoccupied with trying to distort the Noble Koran, for instance when Pope Urban II ordered a warped translation of the Noble Koran [to be made] into Latin so that Islam would not spread to Europe; and many knights of the crusades were returning to Europe as Muslims. All these matters frightened and caused the papacy to try to suppress the spread of Islam on the [European] continent since the sixteenth century.
Such claims must surely raise eyebrows, at least among those knowledgeable of true history. There is no evidence of “many knights” — one cannot even think of a single one — returning to Europe as Muslim converts.
As for the claim that Medieval Christians intentionally tried to disseminate distorted translations of the Koran in order to dissuade their coreligionists from converting to Islam, the only truth here is that Christians were indeed antagonistic to Islam — reciprocally so. However, and quite to the contrary, their way of opposing Muhammad’s creed was to translate the Koran with great and meticulous care — for they were convinced that nothing quite so discredited Islam as the Koran itself, which, as theologians like Thomas Aquinas argued, so obviously did not reflect the will of God.
Thus like his well-credentialed colleague, Dr. Ahmed al-Tayeb — who claims that until Israel came along in 1948 and manipulated them into killing each other, Muslims had lived in harmony for centuries — Dr. Ali Gom‘a is more proof that it is not merely “crazy” or “fringe” clerics who have an utterly paranoid and ahistorical sense of reality, but rather the most decorated and mainstream ones.
Hector Stull says
Maybe Dope Francis will apologize.
Benedict says
Maybe he will. Going by his ass kissing the muslims, last year at the washing of the feet he had muslims in the line of twelve. The Holy Bible does not have any muslim in the line up of twelve.. But this Dope brought muslims in.
Benedict says
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, good one.
esther says
IMHO—–winner of COMMENT OF THE CENTURY!!!
dumbledoresarmy says
Muslims are masters of what Martha Gellhorn called “Madhattery” or what Harry Frankfurt simply calls “Bull-sh*t”, in a book entitled “On Bull-Sh*t”.
The idea is to just make sh*t up. It’s not even ‘big lies’. It’s… non-rational, it has no interest in reality at all.
But one may note that the human subconscious is a very strange thing. In a way, the claim that the church distorted the Koran is projection: because what the maker/s of Islam did, is to take Biblical material (amongst all sorts of other borrowings) and.. invert it; turn it inside out and upside down, gut it of all of its original meaning, creating a malevolent and bizarre caricature of the original.
And then Muslims, forsooth, spin round and accuse Christians of taking this *caricature* and distorting it…
Evil rots the brain.
When Dante enters the Inferno he is told, by Virgil, that he will see “the miserable people/ who have lost the intellectual good” (il ben dell’intelletto).
That is what we see – in spades! – in the dar al Islam.
LeftisruiningCanada says
“The idea is to just make sh*t up. It’s not even ‘big lies’. It’s… non-rational, it has no interest in reality at all.”
We see this from certain posters here quite often…or should i say, from one in particular. Out right fabrications. When called on them. Out right silence.
No honor, no honesty, no shame.
Imagine living in a world where that’s all there is. Sounds like hell to me.
gravenimage says
Fine post, DDA.
Karen says
Brilliant post. Current madhattery includes the campaigns to glamorize the hijab in the West, citing its power as a feminist and civil rights enabler. Buzzwords of the moment are strung together creating “made up” slogans such as “I get my authentic feminist voice from my hijab”. Meanwhile, women in the non-West suffer violence for removing their hijabs.
Ezra says
I think this observation is on-track. I would add however, that muhammedism having been based on a lie from the onset cultivates lies thereafter – it can NEVER recover because it rests on a man-made lie. Take the claim of moslems for instance that their religion is monotheistic – yet the worship of the Kaaba refutes their own doctrine (it is a black rock in mecca that millions worship much as the old Babylonians worshiped a pantheon of gods). They are desperate to have everyone believe it is an ‘abrahamic’ religion when the evidence is shaky at best and non-existent at worst.
Qur’an (16:106); (3:28); (9:3); (66:2); (40:28); (2:225); (3:54) all reference the reasons moslems lie. Compare that to the Bible where truth is a virtue to be striven for in our dealings with our neighbors. A culture that makes a lie into truth and virtue cannot achieve success.
LR says
Ha! ‘Madhattery’….I just used that word today regards some other ‘bs’…And I had not seen that word before…I just kinda’ pulled it outa’ my hat….: )
Go figure.
Benedict says
The Koran as this cleric knows is the “art of lies”. It is no revelation, to Mohammed, it is a copy of the Old and New Testament with his own interjections as to what he thought was right in his twisted mind. The Koran is not from God. The god Mohammed believed in is a sex maniac, and vows to destroy everything that is not Muslim. As is known God is all knowing. He would not create something that He would send someone to kill. The spread of Islam was done by the sword and through intimidation as is written in the Koran
Michael Copeland says
Ah yes, Ali Gomaa, who said this as Grand Mufti of Egypt:
“Muslims must kill non-muslims wherever they are unless they convert to Islam”.
Where did he get that from?
One of those “warped translations” of Pope Urban II?
Or was it Koran 9:29, backed by the Hadith?
mortimer says
Thanks for that, Mike. Indeed, it is worse: Ali Gom’a was the TOP SCHOLAR IN ISLAM. The website http://www.dar-alifta.org/Foreign/default.aspx says: “Dar al-Ifta al Misriyyah is considered among the pioneering foundations for fatwa in the Islamic world. It has been the premier institute to represent Islam and the international FLAGSHIP for Islamic legal research.”
Ali Gom’a served as the eighteenth Grand Mufti of Egypt (2003–2013) as the head of Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah, succeeding Ahmed el-Tayeb.
Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah is the virtual INTERNATIONAL FATWA CENTER FOR SUNNITE ISLAM. When Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah makes a pronouncement, it is similar to the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith (the Office of the Inquisition) making moral pronouncements binding upon Roman Catholics.
As head of the Dar al-Ifta Ali Gom’a cannot be accused of being ignorant or uninformed about the teachings of Islam.
Ali Gom’a’s lack of concern for facts is ALARMING and SHOCKING in a scholar. IS THIS THE TOP LEVEL OF SCHOLARSHIP IN ISLAM? Then how CARELESS is the BOTTOM LEVEL of Islam teachers, if the top level cavalierly states OPINIONS and SURMISALS as ‘FACT’ ???
Can we place any trust in any Islamic scholar? The INTENTIONAL TAQIYYA of Ali Gom’a suggests “not”.
gravenimage says
Spot on, Mike. The idea that most Europeans would be inspired by such savagely is, of course, utter bs. Many Western converts to Islam are violent felons, who are *already* brutal creeps.
Charlie in NY says
So, where is this “warped” translation ordered by Pope Urban II? Dr. Gom’a must surely have consulted it before making his accusation, so he should be able to (1) produce a copy and (2) identify the deliberately inaccurate translations. I’m betting he can’t because it simply doesn’t exist, although it doesn’t hurt to ask the question.
LeftisruiningCanada says
+1
Provide evidence? What?
A filthy non muslim doubting the word of his superior?
Off with your head.
gravenimage says
Yes, Charlie–this is all bs.
Westman says
Who had any idea that Sunni and Shia had been living together in harmony for centuries until Israel was created? All that murder, after Muhammad died of poisoning, among prospective leadership is just a mis-translation from Arabic to English?
Of course, we should accept anything coming from Muslim clerics as the absolute truth. After all, they are so certain of their direct link to Allah – who hasn’t shown up for 1400 years – and their contradictory explanations of the Quran and Sunnah teachings, that when answering questions from the Ummah, they finish with, “But Allah knows best”.
And who is Allah’s spokesperson on Earth who will clean up Islam’s divisions and errors? Ahhh, errrr, ummmm. This has never been decided although wars have been fought among the Ummah over Islam’s own interpretations of the mess Muhammad left(or “scholars” invented in 7th, 8th, centuries).
Maybe Tayyip Erdogan can enthrone himself as Caliph and bring unity to Islam by conquering Egypt, Iran, and setting up his own center of “lslam authority”? If you believe that, I have an Uncle, a Prince, who suddenly died right after the revolution and left $15 million in a Swiss bank. I’ll share half of it if you’ll help me procure it. But Allah knows best.
elee says
Why would the Christians need to lie about the Kor’an when the Muslims do such a marvelous job at it?
Lydia Church says
Right, the koran could not possibly get any worse!
To leave it be is the best repellent for the good and sane person to avoid it.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
But Mr Raymond Ibrahim cannot dispute the fact that the church after its failure to destroy Islam during brutal crusade wars embarked on intellectual warfare by sponsoring churchmen to study Islam with intention of distorting and passing wrong informations about islam to the West. This is known as orientalism giving literal and twisted interpretations of Islamic sources. These wrong informations are exactly what Mr Raymond, Mr Spencer and CO have been disseminating. But those with critical minds in the West have gone to the original intellectual interpretations of Islam and dismissed the distorted informations by Christian evangelist liars as rubbish. such lies like “Allah was moon god “and that “prophet muhammad copied from Christian and jewish scriptures” are no longer tenable in the intellectual forums. Thus, the mission has woefully failed. Now Christian evangelists use the activities of terrorist groups holding perverted Interpretation of islam to blackmail slam by linking It to jihad fighting, which is not.misguided terrorist groups are now being decimated and their evil ideology being debunked, what Will the church do thereafter to sell pagan christianity to intellectuals with critical minds Again ? To revive brutal crusade wars again as some idiots are advocating at this site ? It Will not work .Then pagan christianity has to collapse.
elee says
Islam does not copy from Christian and Jewish scriptures. At least not accurately.
Kesselman says
Muslims believe the Quran is the literal word of Allah (the pagan moon god), therefore sacrosanct in perfection, Eternally immutable, and 100% mandatory in compliance for all humans on Earth. Nobody is allowed to selectively adhere to some directives while dismissing others.
Buraq says
@ Ibe itace Mohamed
Hi Habibi! Yet again, you are obscuring the truth! Answer this question honestly and make yourself an honest man, and not spend your life as a clown!
Why did your prophet feel the need to invent Islam? There were already 2 monotheistic religions – Judaism and Christianity. Why make a 3rd? Mohamed’s excuse was that Judaism and Christianity were no longer true to their original source. They had become twisted and perverted. And his proof? By delivering the plagiarized Al Qur’an in bits and pieces over 23 years while insisting on his unsubstantiated claim.
Show us absolute proof that Judaism and Christianity were falsified and I will recite the Shehada today and start hating all Jews, just as Allah commands in Al Qur’an! (Naturally, I feel that’s a very safe bet)
esther says
Itace—–I AM FASCINATED. I read translations of the Koran done by muslims—
Can you cite some specific “Christian Mistranslations” I never came
across a translation of the Koran by a Christian. I do have relatives who know
Arabic. —-not me. I AM REALLY FASCINATED by the mistranslation accusation. Arabic speaking non-muslims I know——never read the Koran—-but COULD. Saudi Arabia gives out FREE copies of the Koran in English—-is that one
mistranslated too? I worked and socialized closely with a few Shiite muslims
from south east ASIA—–MANY years ago—–They carried a LONG TERM
FAMILY LEGACY of Sunnis and Shiites killing each other over there LONG
before 1948. ——IRANIAN Shiites I have known all but SPAT at the word “arab”
which they equate with “sunni”. Christians created the problem?
All the version of the Koran I have read were translated by muslims. As to
shariah law interpretation as PRACTICED in muslim countries—–Christians
did that too? My hubby was born a dhimmi in a shariah cesspit BEFORE 1948—
and his parents, aunts, uncles and cousins——-LONG BEFORE 1948
gravenimage says
Great questions, esther.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Ibrahim.
No proof, no citations, nothing.
All you have are assertions and lies and sniveling victimhood.
You do not show us a world we want.
Granddaddy says
So Muhammed, molest any 6-year-old girls lately? You gotta keep up with the perfect example, you know.
gravenimage says
He has said before that Muslims have the right to “marry” any child, no matter how young. *Ugh*.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Well sure why not – if mohammad was 100%, achieving 150% can only be better, right?
gravenimage says
The nasty Ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:
But Mr Raymond Ibrahim cannot dispute the fact that the church after its failure to destroy Islam during brutal crusade wars embarked on intellectual warfare by sponsoring churchmen to study Islam with intention of distorting and passing wrong informations about islam to the West. This is known as orientalism giving literal and twisted interpretations of Islamic sources.
……………………………
What claptrap. The church had nothing to do with Orientalism, and Orientalism neither dates from the papacy of Urban II nor of the 16th century.
In fact, Orientalism dates from no earlier than the 18th century, and did not become widespread until the 19th century.
Moreover, Orientalists tended rather to romanticize Islam and the Muslim world–pretending that Orientalism represented some sort of coordinated attack on Islam is absurd.
Also, is he unaware that “literal” means accurate? Or was this just a Freudian slip?
More:
These wrong informations are exactly what Mr Raymond, Mr Spencer and CO have been disseminating.
……………………………
Notice that as often as Ibrahim itace muhammed has made this claim, he has been unable to point out a single thing that Robert Spencer or Raymond Ibrahim or any other Anti-Jihadists have gotten wrong–because he can’t. All he means is that neither Spencer nor Ibrahim characterize raping women and children or mass slaugtering Infidels in the name of Islam as *good things*.
More:
But those with critical minds in the West have gone to the original intellectual interpretations of Islam and dismissed the distorted informations by Christian evangelist liars as rubbish. such lies like “Allah was moon god “and that “prophet muhammad copied from Christian and jewish scriptures” are no longer tenable in the intellectual forums. Thus, the mission has woefully failed.
……………………………
Of course, such things as these are *the least* of Islam’s sins. But notice that Ibrahim itace muhammed is incapable of intellectually countering any of this–because he is unable to.
More:
Now Christian evangelists use the activities of terrorist groups holding perverted Interpretation of islam to blackmail slam by linking It to jihad fighting, which is not.misguided terrorist groups are now being decimated and their evil ideology being debunked, what Will the church do thereafter to sell pagan christianity to intellectuals with critical minds Again ? To revive brutal crusade wars again as some idiots are advocating at this site ? It Will not work .Then pagan christianity has to collapse.
……………………………
What a lot of tripe. Ibrahim itac muhammed has said before that Jihadists are actually “Americans” or “Jews”, while at the same time affirming that Muslims have the right to slaughter any Infidels who do not submit to Islam.
And his claim that Jihad is being “debunked”–at a time when Jihad is actually mushrooming–is just more prooof of how profoundly dishonest this Mohamemdan is.
Ralph says
Islam will soon collapse. Deus vult.
Kesselman says
Time and again, though not really surprised, I’m amazed by the muzzies stupidity (willed or unintended). This PoS is not an exception.
C says
If these people were not a physical threat, we would dismiss them for the fools they are. But because of the physical danger they pose we must learn to disarm them.
Dan Chomistek says
This clown’s towel is wrapped too tight.
mariam rove says
Muslims., once they have/had the upper hands never co-existed peacefully with anyone and that is the fact. m
mariam rove says
They sure do. m
gravenimage says
So true, Mariam.
Wellington says
Sura 4 alone which denies Jesus was crucified (never mind all the times in the Koran Jesus is treated as one of the greater Muslim prophets {even speaking from the cradle in Sura 19 announcing himself as a servant of Allah} before the last and greatest of the prophets, Mohammed) should be enough for any informed Christian to reject Islam as blasphemous. No need whatsoever to distort the Koran since the Koran itself, totally accurately translated, distorts Christianity most grievously.
Dr. Ali Gom’a is taking a page out of Joseph Goebbels playbook, i.e., repeat a really, really big lie rather than just an ordinary lie. That way many are more likely to believe it.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Ignorant dishonest Allen (not Ali),can you or Mr Spencer understand the Quran in its original Arabic version to know whether the translations from Arabic to English or Latin are correct. Remember, thé Quran is not an Arabic language book for anyone with basic knowledge of Arabic to interprete. It requires à specialised learning. knowledge of Arabic is only one of the 12 subject areas one is required to Master before he can even follow thé debate on the Quran. It is from the position agreed upon from différent interpretations that can be used to translate the Quran to another language. The Christian evangelist liars or orientalists just learn Arabic language and started translating the Quran to distort It to fight Islam and It is the same distorted materials Mr Spencer and CO have been using when citing Quranic verses and Hadiths to support his ignorant criticisms against islam.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Typical empty first grader dawa from Ibrahim.
He won’t dispute anything in any translation.
He will keep repeating that no one can understand the koran without his level of arabic.
(And he will claim to understand the Bible, in English, when it suits his needs)
Darryl Kerney says
so, the quran can’t be understood by untrained scholars who don’t know arabic ?
first, why would allah’s perfect book be so hard to understand ?
couldn’t he explain himself so average people can understand him ?
and second,
al Baghdadi has a Ph.D in islamic studies, in arabic, from a renowned islamic university,
how could he have possibly gotten it ALL so wrong ?
gravenimage says
The grotesque Ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:
Ignorant dishonest Allen (not Ali),can you or Mr Spencer understand the Quran in its original Arabic version to know whether the translations from Arabic to English or Latin are correct.
…………………………..
There are translations by Infidels–including at least one Jewish scholar–and there are translations by pious Muslims hoping the book would be used as Da’wa–and the translations are all *virutally the same*. Is Ibrahim itace muhammed trying to say that devout Muslims would translate the Qur’an to make it look bad to Infidels? What tripe.
Moreover, I’d like to see some examples. What, exactly, have the translations gotten wrong? Notice that Ibrahim itace muhammed does not say.
More:
Remember, thé Quran is not an Arabic language book for anyone with basic knowledge of Arabic to interprete. It requires à specialised learning. knowledge of Arabic is only one of the 12 subject areas one is required to Master before he can even follow thé debate on the Quran.
…………………………..
Let’s see–is Ibrahim itace muhammed a scholar in Classical Arabic? I really doubt it–few Muslims, even those who speak and read modern Arabic, are. Is he now saying that most Muslims understand nothing about their own faith? In that case, why do so many act on the diktats of the Qur’an that are clear to anyone who reads it in translation? Of course, he has no anslwer.
More:
It is from the position agreed upon from différent interpretations that can be used to translate the Quran to another language.
…………………………..
If there are approved translations, as this implies, then Ibrahim itace muhammed should name them, so we can see how they differ from other available translations. But he won’t.
More:
The Christian evangelist liars or orientalists just learn Arabic language and started translating the Quran to distort It to fight Islam and It is the same distorted materials Mr Spencer and CO have been using when citing Quranic verses and Hadiths to support his ignorant criticisms against islam.
…………………………..
Uh huh–again, not a single example of anything that Robert Spencer or any other Anti-Jihadist has supposedly gotten wrong.
In fact, Ibrahim itace muhammed has affirmed some of the most horrific aspects of Islam, such as pedophiles “marrying” little girls, raping Infidel women and using them as sex slaves, and mass slaughtering any non-Muslims who do not submit to Islam.
Darryl Kerney says
What language did bin laden read the quran in ?
I doubt he read translated versions, and i know that his interpretation was the same as the many great islamic scholars and experts before him that were educated in islam in the exact manner that ibrahim tells us is necessary to understand it properly, and they all agree that jihad is warfare against the unbelievers for the purpose of making the whole world submit to islam, by force.
Therefore ibrahim’s claim is rendered worthless, because islamic jihadists were practicing the same terrorist methods for the same reasons long before the quran was ever translated into other languages, long before the USA or Israel even existed.
Ray Jarman says
I am sure that you know that bin laden was from Saudi Arabia and that he spoke and read Arabic and if our resident clown is actually an Arab, he should know that. I am to a point that everyone should stop feeding his ego and completely ignore him. I know that Gravenimage has checked his background but I am not convinced that he actually believes any of his own ravings as they are beyond belief and having lived and worked in Nigeria for more than three years, I never met one person there like this one.
Darryl Kerney says
i see what you mean,
it could be he just enjoys saying ridiculous things and being a shit disturber,
he doesn’t reply to my comments, but i offer them once in a while even though
i realize the odds are very low that they will penetrate his brain….,
i do so more for everyone else here to consider than for him.
Karen says
If the Koran can’t be properly translated from Arabic, then there are only 2 options.
1) An imam must give a verbal translation from Arabic to the native population using language X in his weekly sermon. But how could that make any sense? Verbal messsges are notoriously less accurate in transmission than written documents. Dumb idea that leaves the ‘hearer’ at the mercy of the imam, who is often a fool or worse as we can see from many JW articles.
2) The whole world must have Arabic as its first language, since one can never understand the Koran unless immersed in the mysterious and undefined subtleties of Arabic from birth, according to the Islamists. But culture is largely based on language, our most important adaptiation to the world around us. But this would lead to the eradication of all the cultures of the world except one, of course. Ah, yes, Islamic supremacism, once again
ciudadano says
“distort the Noble Koran”
Bullshit. What is the need to distort something that is already evidently distorted?
FYI says
The koran can only be understood by specialist learning,so the muslim troll tells us.12 subject areas need to be studied.Sort of like some Gnostic text that only scholars can decipher.
What bullcrap!
Maybe this is because allah,unlike the Polyglot God,is monolingual.
The whole point of the Bible being available in ALL languages shows that God desires His truth to be revealed to ALL mankind.
In NO Koran in the world is there any mention of the supreme laws of God[the 2 chief commandments}
In contrast,you can pick up a Bible in ANY language{in Korean,Japanese,Chinese,Greek,latin..}open it up at Matthew 22 v 34-40:there you go.
“Pick a language any language”.
But these supreme laws are not found in the “perfect” koran or anywhere in islam because somehow,the monoglot allah COMPLETELY MISSED THEM.
This silly nonsense promoted by muslims that allah can only be understood through Arabic is moronic.
Besides, I am acquainted with fluent speakers of the language(including ex-muslims,an uncle who worked for the diplomatic corps ,who even collected and studied medieval islamic manuscripts whilst working in Saudi Arabia and Sudan..and he knew the koran was nonsense in any language)
Never be fooled by this idiot muslim troll and his pathetic “allah and his koran can only be understood through Arabic” nonsense.
As if the True God could somehow be limited to only ONE language!
allah is a god who doesn’t even get theology right or have any idea what the “Holy Spirit” is{through which ALL Biblical revelation comes}and since he dismisses the theology behind it,he has no understanding of Biblical Prophecy….which explains why the Iranians(desperately) pray to allah to destroy Israel:they just don’t get it!.
There are Theological errors in the “perfect” koran that muslims don’t get:they exist in Arabic too!!
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
FYI, tell me did your pagan mithraist god spoke in English, German, French, without translating his words from another language to these languages ? Prove with cogent and empirical evidence.
LeftisruiningCanada says
What is your point, Ibrahim?
Where do you see Christians using as a primary apologetic argument the idea that no one can ever truly understand the Bible without being a Hebrew or Greek scholar?
Your incredible audacity in demanding “cogent and empirical evidence’ is possibly the height of hypocrisy, since it is the main thing you consistently refuse to do yourself.
Indiana Tom says
A lot of people tell me that God spoke to people in 1611 Elizabethan English. Just ask any King James Only Bible church member. God loves Englishmen. I mean we are communicating in English, right? See God’s’ chosen language is indeed English. This has been predestined before the foundations of the Earth. Hmmm…..actually maybe God has indeed chosen the English language to communicate to the world. Hebrew and Greek is so yesterday.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Ok you got me. KJVO people do indeed make that claim.
Probably should have said “where do you see reasonable Christians using…..”
gravenimage says
Indiana Tom, I actually love the King James version of the Bible, for its poetry. But I have never met *anyone* who claims that the Bible can only be tranlated into 17th century English.
Unless you were being sarcastic, this is silly.
LeftisruiningCanada says
GI, it’s a real thing. Very really, and very divisive with the body of Christ.
King James Onlyism is irrational and nothing short of a cult.
https://www.gotquestions.org/KJV-only.html
James White may not have the best name within counter Jihad circles, but on KJO issues, he is one of the best:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=q7H_2eQC91kC&pg=PA11&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
gravenimage says
Well, anyone who thinks that either the KJV or any other translation of the Bible is the only valid one is just silly.
Also, while the language is different and occasionaly the emphasis–I’ve read several versions–any honest translation of the Bible says essentially the same thing. And why wouldn’t they?
LeftisruiningCanada says
Well exactly, why wouldn’t they. There are no doctrines effected by any textual variant, because no doctrine rests upon just a single verse. Even Bart Ehrman says no different:
“The position I argue for in ‘Misquoting Jesus’ does not actually stand at odds with Prof. Metzger’s position that the essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament.”
Appendix, p252, misquoting Jesus
gravenimage says
What utter rot. The Bible can be translated, and so can the Qur’an, or any other text.
Just because most Christians do not read Aramaic, Hebrew, and ancient Greek does not mean that Christians cannot read the Bible in their own languages, They can, and do.
And yes–God speaks in all languages. Jesus spoke Aramaic to make himself understood to those around him, not because there is something special about Aramaic.
LeftisruiningCanada says
And unless Pilate spoke Aramaic, Christ also was handy with Greek too…..
Ray Jarman says
Graven, You are correct and every English speaking person should remember William Tyndale as he died for translating the Bible into English. In early America, the primary reason for educating one’s children was so they could read the Bible since most people lived on farms with little need for a real education.
Indiana Tom says
Jesus spoke Aramaic to make himself understood to those around him, not because there is something special about Aramaic.And unless Pilate spoke Aramaic, Christ also was handy with Greek too…..
Romans forced Latin as the Official Language of the Roman Empire.
Jesus probably could speak in Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.
Other normal people probably could have more or less done the same at this time period.
Latin and Greek were widespread languages in the Roman Empire.
gravenimage says
Agreed, LeftisruiningCanada and Indiana Tom. I was not suggesting that Jesus was monolingual; far from it. I just focused on the language he probably used most frequently everyday, and the one that is probably the most obscure today.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Sure thing. I guess i just chipped that in as an expansion for all in general, rather than presuming you would not know it.
gravenimage says
🙂
boakai ngombu says
itace, the UNIQUE GOD (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) most often used the written word and humble humans to convey His WORD. He does this today, especially as people use the WORD.
You hate the Holy Spirit – even blaspheme the Spirit. there is an incident likely not known by you where the Spirit did an amazing thing.
i’m using Holy Scripture, written by a doctor, who reported this (in Acts 2, ESV):
(2:4) “They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and started to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them the ability to speak. … (v8) And how does every one of us hear his own language he was born in – (9) Parthians, Medes, Elamites, and people living in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and the province of Asia. (30) Phrygia and Pamphilia, Egypt and the country near Cyrene in Libya, the visitors from Rome, Jews and those who have accepted the Jewish religion, (31) people from Crete and Arabia? In our own languages we hear them tell about God’s wonderful things.” ….
These were peoples living long before English, French, and German were spoken and written languages.
The Spirit moved the people to speak. The Spirit moved others to write and inspired what they wrote, so as to present TRUTH but as the individuals spoke. The Spirit didn’t dictate what was to be written but what was written was what needed to be said about “God’s wonderful things.”
The Spirit did not inspire the Mother Book, the messenger that came to Muhammad (lately contrived; full of lusts; lacking compassion) to dictate from the Mother Book to your prophet himself. otherwise the koran would not contradict what is in the Bible – Old Testament and New Testament. the koran would speak well of the God/Man (two natures of Christ) and not diminish His importance.
Darryl Kerney says
as i pointed out earlier,
al Baghdadi studied islam in arabic and got his PhD in islamic studies from a renowned islamic university….
gravenimage says
Yep.
Ray Jarman says
Darryl, I have one thing to say about you opine; islam and PhD is an oxymoron. One earning a PhD means that he or she has attended a real university and earned a Bachelor’s degree plus a Masters degree. If learning how to be intolerant, hateful of all others and lying about perfidious pedophilic monster, maybe every inmate in prison for murder should be granted a PhD in how to murder, steal and perfidy.
Darryl Kerney says
The point is that al baghdadi studied islam in arabic at an islamic university, and does also have a master’s degree in islamic studies, so, by ibrahim”s own criteria he is indeed properly educated and fully understands real islam as taught by the highest authorities in islamic law and practice.
Therefore, isis, with him as leader, is in fact real islam, since he meets the requirements that muslims insist are necessary for a proper understanding of islam having studied it in arabic under the guidance of accepted experts.
Ray Jarman says
Darryl, I don’t want you to think that I disagreed with what you said, I just become irritated when academic and muslim is used in the same sentence for no could believe any of the nonsense if he or she were truly educated, especially in philosophy and all ministries and universities offering programs in comparative religion incorporates philosophy in its core.
Unlike Christians who freely admit that their belief in Jesus Christ is predicated upon a desire and deeply held faith whereas cult members have no concept of belief, they espouse that they have knowledge of their beliefs. I have never known a Christian who has not had doubts at times but cult members will never admit to this. Once again I did not take exception to your opine only my revulsion at the terms used together.
Darryl Kerney says
i knew you weren’t disagreeing Ray,
and i too share the same irritation,
much of what i read from the accepted experts of islam actually hurts my brain it is so insane.
gravenimage says
Agreed, Darryl.
Cynthia in California says
These taqiyya-type arguments simply waste our time. Medieval and Renaissance Christians in Europe (or elsewhere) didn’t need to deal with the Koran to “understand” Islam.
Muslim slave-raiders stole Christian people from the shores of the Mediterranean and from as far away as Iceland into at least the 17th century. Then the Barbara corsairs simply began attacking European galleys, merchant ships, etc. and selling their passengers/crew into slavery.
Read some history: the search string “Muslim slave raids in Europe” returns TONS of documented kidnappings, murders, etc.
The Christians knew what Islam was all about. Islam is still about the same stuff: enslaving young women, killing competent men/warriors and any nearby civilians. We don’t need any “massaged” translations of the Koran to know that it’s wicked, brutal, and non-humane.
My God. What a waste of time to counter such chicken-“stuff.”
gravenimage says
Good post.
Ray Jarman says
This is the most absurd crap that I have read other than that of our foul mouthed Ibrahim itace muhammed. Firstly, in the age of the Crusades, the Church was where everyone in a village would go every Sunday morning to listen to the priest lead them a better life and instill into them the principles taught by their Savior Jesus Christ such as to treat his neighbor as he would himself and to forgive even his enemies and even pray for their salvation. This was the one place, at for a few hours, that all men could feel equal before the eyes of God.
The etiologic Ali Gom‘a’s statement is a disgrace to all that is sacred and I don’t understand how anyone with a sixth grade education would ever refer to an imbecile like this as a professor. His saying that the Catholic Church spread false impressions of the evil cult is completely ludicrous at best. Before Constantinople fell, the hordes of locusts had already slaughtered most of the inhabitants of Aleppo, Antioch, Smyrna and every settlement from the Arabian peninsula to the Atlantic Ocean. None of the lands and cities were islamocized by proselytism but by the sword and every other evil torture known to the human race. The people of Andalusia where the great synagogue in Cordoba was turned into a grotesque mosque certainly did not welcome the cockroaches. They destroyed the great Byzantine crown jewel and turned the beautiful Santa Sophia into a disgusting mosque. For this pitiful excuse for an impostor academic to say that the Crusaders after returning home spread false rumours about the horde of locusts is unforgivable.
While I lived in Belgium, my son was born and I named him Roland after the poem, “The Song of Roland,” as a tribute to the turning of the tide by Charles Martel. While no church is perfect, not one comes close to the vileness and incubus nightmare of the one that has been allowed by the pusillanimous officials elected by our fellow countrymen to inhabit and destroy our once great and peaceful lands.
LeftisruiningCanada says
+1
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Buraq, as you know what jesus truely taught was never recorded in his presence or his disciples wrote It down unlike the the Quran recorded on the spot when revelations were coming. you know that before the canons from which the present day Christian Bible originated there were 200 books. It then became controversial as to which books were genuine. some christians accepted 20,some 27 ,some 30-40 and some accepted all the 200 ,but they were banned by Roman power. what caused such controversy ? This is because the chain of narration as to what jesus actually taught had been broken. It then remained speculative, ie one could not know what jesus truely taught. This gave room for human manipulations. As such one Will not be sûre what jesus taught. How can one get the truth. Since jesus was sent by the same God Who sent prophet muhammad like other prophets before Jésus, God creared the doubt through prophet muhammad with furqan (filter), which is another name for the Quran, to determine what doctrines jesus actually taught and the doctrines added after him. such doctrines líke Godman and begotten son of God were not taught by jesus as the Quran told us, they were imported into christianity from paganism, which negate the basic doctrine of monotheism taught by previous prophets and jesus upto prophet muhammad that God is Only One without partner or plurality.
Thank you
LeftisruiningCanada says
” you know that before the canons from which the present day Christian Bible originated there were 200 books”
List please.
“some christians accepted 20,some 27 ,some 30-40 and some accepted all the 200″
Citation please.
You really have no idea what you are talking about Ibrahim. We have Christians in Rome, Anatolia and elsewhere quoting from the 4 Gospels and most of Paul’s letters right from the start of the manuscript evidence. They don’t tend to quote from anywhere else, though a few other books (Shepherd of Hermas, for example) were popular. It is not clear that these other few were considered on the same level as the rest.
” such doctrines líke Godman and begotten son of God were not taught by jesus as the Quran told us, they were imported into christianity from paganism, which negate the basic doctrine of monotheism taught by previous prophets and jesus”
You have shown no support for your claim that pagan doctrines were ‘imported’ into Christianity, and NO, for the hundredth time, Trinitarianism does not negate Monotheism. It is Monotheism. Christians believe in one God. One.
Your refusal to listen to what we say on that matter makes no difference to us.
You go right ahead and do as your perfect man says. But you have been warned.
LeftisruiningCanada says
And i was almost forgetting all the times in the koran that mohammad was told to check with the people of the book to see if what allah gave him was true.
What about all the times that the koran assumes the reliability of the Torah and Injil that the Jews and Christians has WITH THEM at the time of mohammad?
We know what the Jews and Christians had in their Book at the time of mohammad. There are no manuscripts differing in any substantial way from what we have now. You have no proof that either the Torah or the New Testament has been changed since then.
gravenimage says
Ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:
Buraq, as you know what jesus truely taught was never recorded in his presence or his disciples wrote It down unlike the the Quran recorded on the spot when revelations were coming.
…………………………….
Of course, even by the tenets of Islam this is inaccurate. The “Prophet” Muhammed never received his “revelations” in the presence of anyone else, and he was famously illiterate. So no–anyone who took down Muhammed’s rantings must perforce have done so after the fact.
More:
you know that before the canons from which the present day Christian Bible originated there were 200 books…
…………………………….
Will Ibrahim itace muhammed back this up with actual facts? Of course not…
More:
It then remained speculative, ie one could not know what jesus truely taught. This gave room for human manipulations…
…………………………….
Yes–we hear this from Muslims all the time–that anything about the Golden Rule or a loving God was just “corruptions” by Christians.
More:
Since jesus was sent by the same God Who sent prophet muhammad like other prophets before Jésus, God creared the doubt through prophet muhammad with furqan (filter), which is another name for the Quran, to determine what doctrines jesus actually taught and the doctrines added after him…
…………………………….
As Muslims would have it, not only is Jesus not the Savior, he is not a healer or a peacemaker, either. Instead, his only real role in Islam is to *slaughter Christians* in the last days. *Ugh*.
Indiana Tom says
The Muslims should allow me to re-write the Koran as I have been properly inspired by Allah,
Indiana Tom says
It really would not be too hard to better the unmighty Mo. Doctor Seuss could better the Koran.
Phil Copson says
“…. many knights of the crusades were returning to Europe as Muslims. All these matters frightened and caused the papacy to try to suppress the spread of Islam on the [European] continent since the sixteenth century….”
Since the 16th Century ? The SIXTEENTH Century ?? This clown doesn’t even know when the Crusades were! Even if they started on a (non-existent) “warped translation” in the first year of the 16th Century, ie – the year 1500, it would have been a remarkably tardy response to any problem of Knightly islamic converts, given that even the most recent of the Crusades had been over by some 250 years at that point – and the first Crusade by around 500.
Mr Ali Gom’a may be touted an example of a “leading Egyptian cleric”, but wouldn’t “mis-leading” be nearer the mark ? (He sounds as though he’d have much in common with that famous novelist – (name escapes me…Gore Vidal ?) – who used to present himself as an authority on espionage, the intelligence services etc, and show-boat about his “expertise” on various TV and radio programmes. He was so fantastically expert that he didn’t even know that the “MI” in “MI5” and “MI6” stands for “Military Intelligence” – hilariously referring to them as “M one-five” and “M one-six”.
Ray Jarman says
Good one, I missed that when I read the trash.
gravenimage says
Good post.
gravenimage says
Did Medieval Christians distort the Koran to prevent Islam from spreading to Europe?
………………………………
What a lot of rot. Citations, please.
More:
While discussing the history of the Koran in Europe during a televised interview on the Arabic-language program, “Allah Knows,” Dr. Ali Gom‘a, one of Egypt’s foremost clerics, said that early European translations of the Koran were rooted in Christian desires to learn more about Islam and its language, Arabic. But then he made the following assertion:
The [European/Catholic] Church at that time was preoccupied with trying to distort the Noble Koran, for instance when Pope Urban II ordered a warped translation of the Noble Koran [to be made] into Latin so that Islam would not spread to Europe; and many knights of the crusades were returning to Europe as Muslims. All these matters frightened and caused the papacy to try to suppress the spread of Islam on the [European] continent since the sixteenth century.
………………………………
How does this even make sense? If knights had supposedly been converting to Islam since the late 11th century–never mind that there is *no* evidence of this–then why would the Popes have waited until the 16th century–*500 years later*–to have begun to suppress the supposed spread of Isla in Christendom? Moreover, if there were these supposedly wonderful translations already in circulation over the past half-millenium, why would this have made any difference?
Moreover, Pope Urban II died in 1099–not in the 16th century. Ali Gom‘a does not say how this would only have come to light so much later.
Of course, this makes no logical sense.
And note that Ali Gom‘a presents *no* examples of either type of translation, nor how they supposedly differ.
The claim that the earliest translations of the Qur’an into Western languages were Islamophilic are pretty easily disproven–the earliest known translation–into Greek, in the mid-late 9th century–was called, “Refutation of Quran”.
The first translation into Latin, in 1143, was called, “The law of Mahomet the false prophet”, which does not sound particularly Islamophilic, either. There were several other translations ove the centuries into Latin. Note that this was *not* during the reign of Pope Urban II, either.
Beginning in the 14th century, there were translations of the Qur’an into European venacular languages, such as Spanish, Italian, German, Dutch, French, and English.
Moreover, the papacy had no control over many of these translations, made as they were in Protestant countries.
More:
Such claims must surely raise eyebrows, at least among those knowledgeable of true history. There is no evidence of “many knights” — one cannot even think of a single one — returning to Europe as Muslim converts.
………………………………
So true. Surely this would come up–either in these knights being confronted by Christians, or in the spread of Islam among an influential class in Christendom–yet, neither of these things happened.
More:
As for the claim that Medieval Christians intentionally tried to disseminate distorted translations of the Koran in order to dissuade their coreligionists from converting to Islam, the only truth here is that Christians were indeed antagonistic to Islam — reciprocally so. However, and quite to the contrary, their way of opposing Muhammad’s creed was to translate the Koran with great and meticulous care — for they were convinced that nothing quite so discredited Islam as the Koran itself, which, as theologians like Thomas Aquinas argued, so obviously did not reflect the will of God.
………………………………
So true. Many Christians wrote about the savagery of Islam–both its texts and its dark history.
LeftisruiningCanada says
““The law of Mahomet the false prophet””
Now there’s a good title for a translation of the koran.
gravenimage says
🙂
Save Europe says
Answer – NO! However, current 2018 Cultural Marxist Leftards are quite happy to lie about the supposed ‘positives’ Islam brought to Europe under the Moors, Barbary Pirates and Ottomans.
LeftisruiningCanada says
and if you’ve a problem with handsome young muslim princes taking only vaguely reluctant young Irish or Icelandic maidens away to beautifully architectured sun traps on the southern Mediterranean coast to be dressed in fine silks, fed from the very teat of milk and flowing honey, all the while having a weekly, obviously loving and totally optional, servicing from said fine young prince, then you are nothing but a racist bigot.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Lifruinicanada, you are becoming deceptive like other Christian evangelist liars.The Quran never stated that scriptures in possession of christians and Jews during the time of prophet muhammad were reliable. It asked ignorant pagan Arabs to confirm from christians and Jews about the idea of divine revealation, because there are some guidance in these scriptures. other verses identified misguidance contained in Christian and jewish scriptures, which means Christian and jewish scriptures were mixture of guidance and misguidance. Eg, Christian doctrines líke Godman and begotten son of God are misguidance mixed with Doctrine of monotheism contained in the same christian scriptures.In other verses, anyone believing in these pagan doctrines líke Godman and begotten son of God Will never enter paradise (qad harama alaihil janna) ,Will be casted into hottest lake of hellfire together with the Satan(holy spirit) Who inspired them
Necrophage says
So what you’re saying is that your god dictated “divine revelation” to an illiterate thug (Muhammad) and I am supposed to believe it? You are brain damaged.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Did your mithraist jesus write your scriptures. Is there any story on what he wrote ? Will you not call him an illiterate if he could not read and write texts ?
LeftisruiningCanada says
You are illegitimately applying your own arbitrary, koran derived, standards upon how the NT ‘should’ have been composed.
Where in the Torah or NT does it say that a book should be written by a certain author to be considered revealed?
Did Adam write about himself? Did Abraham?
And of course Jesus could read. He did so several times in the NT.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Do note that Ibrahim has completely ignored my requests for him to support his many dubious statements. He ignored all of this:
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/03/did-medieval-christians-distort-the-koran-to-prevent-islam-from-spreading-to-europe#comment-1865243
Instead, while being obviously deceptive himself by dodging my questions, as usual, he has chosen to call me a deceptive liar by objecting to my referencing the many places where his own book tells him that both the Jews and the Christians have reliable revelations WITH THEM at the time of mohammad, and that they should be told to verify mohammad by looking in them.
Surah 5:44-48 is useful in this regards, but ill just quote 46-47:
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
The question is, how can the author of the koran tell the People of the Gospel to judge using the Gospel, unless the Gospel they had at that time was reliable?
And, because we know what the Christians had as their Scripture back then, and we know it hadn’t changed, we also know that the Scripture we have today has not been changed. It is reliable. Not changed, lost or altered.
Ibrahim, i would so like to see support for your claims about the Bible that you made above.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
Leftruinigcanada, Present day Bible is not exactly the same as guidance revealed to Jésus referred to in the Quran . It is a mixture of the guidance taught by jesus and pagan doctrines líke Godman and begotten son of God.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Which, outside of your confused and Biblically illiterate koran, you have no proof off whatsoever.
This is why islam required violence Ibrahim – it cannot survive reasonable debate.
Islam will always lose in an open and free market or ideas. Always.
Much like yourself actually.
gravenimage says
Ibrahim itace muhammed wrote:
Lifruinicanada, you are becoming deceptive like other Christian evangelist liars.The Quran never stated that scriptures in possession of christians and Jews during the time of prophet muhammad were reliable…
……………………
Yes–all Muslims claim that Jews and Christians have “corrupted” the Torah and Gospels, before which they were supposedly just as savage as the vicious Qur’an.
Never mind that their is absolutely no historical or archaeological basis for such absurd claims.
Necrophage says
How do you know a Muslim is lying to an “infidel”?
His mouth is moving.
Infidel says
Now Taqiyya in history….. Mind-boggling lengths to which these mad Muslims stoop to…. No hard work, no scholarship… Just cheating and stealing… so typical of these creatures,,
UNCLE VLADDI says
All the English translations of the Qur’an were made by native Arabic-speaking muslims.
LeftisruiningCanada says
I’m not sure that claim is quite true Vladdi.
Please see my response to Honest Ali, above a little ways.
Ezra says
Translations of the qur’an should be treated just like those of the Hebrew/Christian translations: side by side. Then the correct one should out.