Companies are still trusting the Southern Poverty Law Center. I’ve started an Indiegogo page now to finance a suit against the Southern Poverty Law Center. Will the SPLC pressure Indiegogo to drop a page critical of the SPLC? We shall see. My latest in PJ Media:
Patreon started the ball rolling when they deleted the account I had started to raise funds to renovate an old TV studio, which I had hoped to use for Jihad Watch videos. Patreon gave me no explanation for banning me other than that MasterCard had demanded that they do so, and the only explanation from MasterCard was published in Breitbart News:
A Mastercard spokesperson responded to a Breitbart News request for comment with the following statement. “As part of our normal process, we share information about websites that may have illegal content with the acquirer — or merchant’s bank — that connects them to our network to accept card payments. The acquirer would then review the site for compliance with legal requirements and our standards. They would then determine what action to take. In this case, the acquirer advised us that they decided to terminate acceptance.”
What “illegal content”?
Which website — Patreon or Jihad Watch? All I had at Patreon was a video stating my hopes to rebuild the studio, and a notice about an upcoming livestream. At Jihad Watch, all we have are news articles, almost all from mainstream news sources, with commentary. To what “illegal content” is MasterCard referring?
It is not (yet) illegal in the United States to criticize Islam and to oppose jihad mass murder and the Sharia oppression of women, gays, and others. It is, however, illegal to do so under Sharia. Is MasterCard operating according to Sharia blasphemy laws now?
Shortly after that, I started a GoFundMe page to make up for the loss of Patreon. But after a few days, GoFundMe canceled my account and refunded all the donations. GoFundMe sent me this explanation:
It seems you’re using WePay [GoFundMe’s service to pay those who receive donations] for one or more of the activities prohibited by our Terms of Service …
WePay is unable to process payments related to Hate, violence, racial intolerance, terrorism, the financial exploitation of a crime, or items or activities that encourage, promote, facilitate, or instruct others regarding the same.
There was, of course, no further explanation.
It’s very clear what’s going on. The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) claims that I am a “hate group leader,” and that’s that: when the SPLC says “jump,” Patreon and MasterCard say “how high?”
Indeed, the SPLC’s infallibility in such matters is taken for granted by all the social media giants as well. This is despite the SPLC’s massive admission of error in the Maajid Nawaz case, in which they paid a $3.3 million settlement to a Muslim reformer they accused of being an “anti-Muslim extremist” (which is what they call me). The SPLC’s far-Left political agenda, in lumping legitimate groups in with the likes of the KKK and neo-Nazis in order to discredit and destroy them, is also obvious.
But GoFundMe, like Patreon and MasterCard, allowed me no appeal, no discussion, no questioning of the SPLC’s fiat.
And of course, it isn’t just the SPLC. It is now taken for granted by large segments of the American population, and by innumerable people elsewhere, that to oppose jihad mass murder of innocent civilians and Sharia oppression of women, gays, and others is “hate” — or as GoFundMe puts it, “Hate” with a capital “H.”
I remember how flabbergasted I was in 2003 when I was on MSNBC with Keith Olbermann and Ibrahim Hooper of Hamas-linked CAIR, and Hooper called me a “hatemonger.” I thought, “It’s ‘hate’ to oppose jihad terror? That will never fly.”
But it has. And the outcome will be that more and more people will be afraid to oppose jihad terror and Sharia oppression for fear of incurring these charges, and this discrimination and libel.
I’m going to be doing what I can to challenge GoFundMe’s uncritical acceptance of the SPLC’s smear of me, and the likely same uncritical acceptance by MasterCard/Patreon. But the SPLC has hundreds of millions of dollars and I don’t. And many who don’t realize how vulnerable they are will applaud what is happening to me because they don’t realize or believe how easily the same tactics can and will be turned on them. But they will be.
This is getting very serious. It won’t stop with me. After my adventures with Patreon and GoFundMe, MasterCard and Visa stopped processing donations for the David Horowitz Freedom Center, with which I am affiliated, although they backtracked after an outcry.
Despite this small victory, it is clear that the Left is moving quickly to silence all dissenting voices in the run-up to the 2018 elections….
Read the rest here.
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
Free speech is dying a fast death. And that’s here in America, which has the 1st Amendment. It is only natural that opposition to Islam is the primary candidate for the post-1st Amendment regime. Now that Spencer is disposed, next up is helping rig the mid-term elections.
Andy says
All Patriots have to stand up and be counted, especially against the left!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zneN8fubRHE
Guy Forester says
Anything similar on the West Coast? I think there are plenty of people out west that could make an 8-12 hour drive to a strategic location. Not everyone can go cross country.
Charles says
“Companies” is the first word of Mr. Spencer’s blurb. Methought it was “the Left” that caused all the trouble.
jule says
Free speech does not protect threats to people. Especially not a group or a religion that threatens other. That is not what ‘free speech’ means. It isn’t even what freedom of religion means. We just never have before had a ‘religion’ that threatens. outright threatens in their holy book read every Friday in Mosque. Our freedom would not protect a Hitler today. It would not protect a Pol Pot etc. We are a Free country BECAUSE we will not allow that.
gravenimage says
Charles, it is quite possible for companies to have Leftist policies, especially when they have Leftist ownership. These days, many do.
mortimer says
SPLC has no problem with Islamic terrorist organizations … SEE NO JIHAD, HEAR NO JIHAD, SPEAK NO JIHAD.
SPLC acts as if it is IN FAVOR OF JIHAD.
Eventually, and perhaps sooner than they think, the JIHADISTS will turn on SPLC as well.
Are you reading this, SPLC ? The jihadists WILL TURN ON YOU.
James Lincoln says
Much to their chagrin, the far left will continue to be used by the jihadists until they are no longer needed.
NITZAKHON says
Not that I really want to see the Jihadis prevail, but it certainly would be entertaining to see all the Leftist SJW women who took their side suddenly chained, raped, and made into the sex chattel the Islamists see them as. And the men knelt down and beheaded.
All the while bleating “But we helped you, we took your side, we protected you!”
“Stupid Infidel”.
gravenimage says
It seems this poster has a sick sense of “entertainment”.
gravenimage says
But yes–this has happened before. In Iran, with the Communist Tudeh Party. After 1979, the Mullahs consolidated their power, then viciously turned on their former allies. Many of these poor fools went to their deaths screaming that they had always supported the revolution.
Grizzly says
“no longer needed.”… that’s why they’re also called “useful idiots”!
jule says
Thats what I think is strange…if I bring up a real hate group, against Jews for instance, how can they call me a hater. Well, of course I do not like hate groups. And when i read the Qur’an/Hadiths, I saw hate, persecution and SuperSupremacy. Maybe they ought to read it. Go straight to the source & refuse service to it when they read the hate. I mean Spencers book is something I would want to read but they really ought to look at the WHY it had to be written. Go to the source. listen to to the sermons. They cannot ignore. Thats just laziness or being afraid to lose MidEast Markets while people continue to be hurt…and that includes Muslims too. The excuse of islamophobia is like the aggressor calling the victim the cause. Its all too familiar and exactly why a group like SPLC was needed. Now they got hijacked. Tehy must read the Qur’an/Hadiths to see how they got right through the heart and no longer exist as a protection for people. I always wonder ‘HOW” but them millions of Germans joined up with the troops and turned in neighbors. Its just astounding. That phenomenon is almost more frightening than Islamist dictatorship. Almost.
I am so pleased you will sue them. Things have to be exposed as same like nazigroups, KKKlan because they are. It is not racist to say STOP persecuting Jews & blacks. That is the opposite of racism, anti-Semite.
pumbar says
Let’s just hope that Indiegogo doesn’t turn out to be finished too.
mortimer says
JIHAD is AGGRESSION against the human rights and civil liberties of all disbelieving KAFIRS and women.
SPLC is protecting those who want to remove the rights of SPLC.
Did they consider that yet?
SPLC is feeding the AGGRESSION that will, when emboldened, go after and persecute SPLC until it becomes the ISLAMIC Poverty Law Center.
gravenimage says
Robert Spencer: The Left Moves Fast to Silence Me
…………………..
Under pressure, MasterCard and Visa backed down. This is a good sign.
Terry Gain says
GI
They have not backed down from getting Patreon and GoFundMe not to provide services to Robert Spencer, have they?
gravenimage says
No, they haven’t, Terry. MasterCard and Visa backing down is just a first step.
I was not trying to paint too rosy a picture.
FYI says
Ah yes! The Leftard clansmen of the SPLC.
Busy,busy,busy working against our hard-won freedoms.
The Soviets would be impressed{..or the fascists..or the nazis}
Does the SPLC not know that Mr Spencer and JW have been fighting AGAINST islamic supremacist terrorism and AGAINST islamic anti-semitism?
Is that not a GOOD THING?
Do the Jewish members of the SPLC clan not get it?Let me explain..
islamic supremacist ideology calls for a GENOCIDAL WAR AGAINST the Jews.
This is OFFICIAL islamic teaching.It calls for the extermination of the Jews {and in the process..}the destruction of Israel
SAHIH MUSLIM 6985
“There is a Jew behind me..KILL him”
Got that?Remember a similar situation with the nazis?Did you ever hear of the phrase”All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”?Of course you did.
Do the Bright Sparks of the SPLC clan understand what that means?Would you choose,like at the time of the nazis to PRETEND not to see that or claim that it is “islamophobia” or “racist”?Would you not be fighting AGAINST such an evil racist and hateful supremacist ideology?Or would you prefer to accomodate the evil?
Choose!
Now surely those bleeding heart,virtue-signalling clansmen of the SPLC (especially JEWISH ones} can see that to fight AGAINST islamic supremacist ideology that calls for 1)the annihilation of the Jews{as nazism did}and 2)the destruction of our free society (which has been clearly expressed by muslim hate groups) is …..a GOOD MORAL THING.
No?Apparently the SPLC clansmen don’t get it:they appear to be on the side of those{by trying to shut down JW}who are the promoters of islamic anti-semitism and islamic TERROR!
Only those totalitarians,the communists,fascists,pro-islamic supremacists,globalists,Quisling leftard politicians ,terrorists,Jewish lawyers who don’t get Irony and nazis would try to STOP
anyone who fights AGAINST such evil.
So the SPLC:Is that now to mean..
The Society of Perfidiously Litigious Communists or something?
Who the hell do the SPLC think they are fooling??
How can any {especially JEWISH} lawyer be in opposition to an organisation {JihadWatch} that is working to fight AGAINST islamic anti-semitism?Where is the moral compass of the Jewish members of the SPLC clan?What next?Will there be Jewish lawyers defending nazis{I understand about Due Process etc,but seriously, lawyers need to have …or grow..a CONSCIENCE:like Jiminy Cricket….)
Excessive Litigiousness too is an absolute disgrace and makes a mockery of the Legal System.Shame on the SPLC and shame on any Jewish lawyers associated with such a spurious,hypocritical,hate-mongering organisation as the SPLC.
What do Jewish lawyers not get about the Irony of trying to silence an organisation{JW} that is fighting AGAINST islamic antisemitism and AGAINST islamic supremacist ideology that calls{sahih muslim 6985} for a GENOCIDAL WAR AGAINST THE JEWS?What do they not understand here?
I hate litigiousness, greedy lawyers and hypocritical,two-faced “social Justice warriors” who love to pretend they are virtuous.
I hate the fact that there are Jewish lawyers who are either too stupid or simply don’t get the irony of trying to shut down an organisation{JW} that is working to combat islamic anti-semitism and explain the reality of the GENOCIDAL WAR against the Jews that islamic supremacist ideology calls for[SAHIH MUSLIM 6985}
So there:is that enough “hate speech” for ya ?What’s that?
Ya wanna put the name on the list?Like those other people who loved lists?
The Soviets/nazis/fascists/pol pot ..so many lists!….??
Who the hell do the SPLC clansmen think they are kidding??
carpediadem says
Where is the moral compass and solidarity if Christian members of the SPLC members and Christian groups who support Palestinian and Islamic jiahd? Do they think they will escape jihad? Judging by events in the ME,clearly not.
Your obsessive fixation on Jews does not go unnoticed. With each post you increase your contempibility.
jule says
What do you mean ‘excessive fixation on Jews’ ? That is definitely the key to bringing down Islam…..but Jews can’t say anything or they fall into the trap set for them in the Qur’an. They just can’t and will not (officially) It has to be US. We just have to. In THIS case, the enemy (persecuted Jews & Judaism as being Cursed by Allah who they must fight till Judgment Day) of the enemy (Islam who declared War on the world) IS FRIEND.
jule says
Exactly, but please don’t turn this into Left vs Right because that takes the power away and many of us on the left see it but don’t speak up because we get clobbered. But Neonazigroups and KKKlan are on the right so its just something that happens in human groups. I can’t figure out why. Mob excitement/frenzy? Fear to say different? looking for a purpose & thats an easy one? I know some legitimate reasons for youth on the left to be very angry but the Enemy of what we are made at is NOT our friend. But they do not even know what it is with all the propaganda, starting with Carter. Carter got so confused but he did a goof ‘Habitat for Humanity’. And he did get Congress to officially approve the First half of the Universal Human Rights. (but not the second half yet)
jule says
YES!
Andy says
Lefty/Liberalism is a mental disorder!
University Caves to Mob. Deletes Study
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJeKH7UhQPI
Academic Institutions Have Been Infiltrated | Our Universities are Marxist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcCCmTMpVik&t=184s
jule says
Everyone is grasping to for help, fairness, opportunity to progress but no one has been helping our society and when there is weakness and need, the Wolves and Vultures flock to take advantage and promise help. NAFTA/WTO globalists ruined us, gutted out country both left and right. Everyone is in panic and grasping for change. Unless we DO America First and rebuild inside, for EVERYONE inside, American society will fall apart. But people do not know what the answer is? It isn’t just more capitalism with NAFTA/WTO. I am glad Trump is working on it!!!!! I am on the Left.
But the point here is that Islam will destroy us without Hope and we must show what it is….it is not just some benign religion (that fights against multi culturalism, other religions, choice, freedom and uses a Fake Authoritarian fascist Allah for fear and punishment) Islam biggest enemy is Israel first. Protecting Israel and American Jews from the antiSemititc CORE of Islam is the way to get it out and show what it is. A SuperSupremacist Religion that says Allah cursed Jews and wants Islam to take complete control of Abraham as the only ones worthy of his history. Thats their whole thing. Take control of Abrahams Jewish History (and therefor Christianity) and make a global Caliphate of Muslims only in control, with a few slaves who will not convert and manage to stay live. So SHOW what they are and do not allow them to take Abraham as their Supremacist excuse.
gravenimage says
We are *all* at risk from Islam.
needmorelampposts says
According to MasterCard’s statement, the entity that terminated Robert’s Patreon account was the bank that Patreon uses to collect payments from MasterCard.
“The acquirer would then review the site for compliance with legal requirements and our standards.”
Note the “our standards” which is broad enough to mean literally anything.
Frank Anderson says
PLEASE CONSULT A CURRENTLY LICENSED AND PRACTICING ATTORNEY IN YOUR JURISDICTION FOR ANY LEGAL ADVICE.
Money intended for delivery to DHFC or any other person is the property of the sender and recipient, never the “handler” or “intermediary” (possibly “bailee”). The intermediary is under a fiduciary duty to deliver it according to the instructions of the sender absent a clearly illegal or fraudulent purpose, in which case a report must be made immediately to law enforcement (see, 18 USC Section 4). Failing or refusing to deliver in accordance with the instructions is a “conversion” under state law. A conversion triggered by the defamatory statements of another is a conspiracy, both civil and criminal. There is also a mail fraud and wire fraud issue, 18 USC 1341 and 1343, giving rise under state law for a claim of “negligence per se” by violation of statutes. If SPLC were the first named party, with its headquarters in Alabama, all other parties would have to come to Alabama to defend if the suit were brought in Alabama. “Good as to one is good as to all”. Alabama law has several cases starting with the postmaster case, where a “federal” postmaster was sued and lost for refusing to deliver an item in accordance with the owners instructions.
If the reasons, motivations and resources are sufficient, and the commitment to nothing less than victory is present, there is at least law from previous cases to support a claim. I think I can find the cite of the postmaster case with a little effort if helpful.
jule says
wow, I forgot you were a Lawyer. I think you could be very helpful to Spencer. I’m pretty sure he read all this. Do you know about the case with that Muslim in Briton, Mawan Nar-something? he used to work for al Jazeera too but spent time in Egypts prison as a Muslim Brother and now supposedly works to reform or have people reinterpret what Islam is because he KNOWS how bad it is. So SPLC put him on the ‘hate’ list and he sued and won. The amount was sizable but secondary to Winning and making a POINT…the Same point Spencer can make.
Frank Anderson says
I am retired. I think the most effective help I can provide for the time being is to help others understand what is involved in a life and death struggle through a legal war. Some fights must be fought. Unless the fight is entered with Jeff Foxworthy’s “total commitment” it is lost before it starts. There are several people spoiling for our hosts to get into a fight. Some may even be on the side of SPLC looking to provoke a fight to tie up our hosts and stop them from their work while SPLC lines its pockets. In the fight that defines me today, my ex-wife was so impatient for it to be over she wanted me to surrender my license in one state just to get it over. That would have resulted in the automatic loss of my license in the other state without so much as a hearing. I kept both licenses, lost everything else and moved on.
But this is the kind of war that will go on until it is over. When is it over? *When I win!* Not one minute earlier. What will the war cost? Everything. Who is going to pay for it while it goes on, and on, and on, and on? All of us who see what is coming if it is not fought and will start writing checks or sending Post Office Money Orders as long as it takes. Asking one person or a few people to do the work and pay the bills while sitting in the stands is easy. Getting onto the field or into the ring takes guts.
jule says
You are right. I wonder if that Marwan guy only won Because he says he still a Muslim…but now wants to teach “Reformed Moderate’ Islam (which even MidEast Muslims think is laugh, a joke)
But I want a win! We must have a win.
Why does everything have to be about MONEY instead of truth or justice.
Frank Anderson says
jULE, many years ago I attended a CLE seminar on “alternate dispute resolution” that touted with great joy *volunteer* unpaid opportunities for lawyers to take the load off judges, attorneys and parties who would all be paid or save money as a result of the “volunteer” lawyer’s work. When I asked the question how was the “volunteer” lawyer to pay his taxes, rent, bar dues, license fees, CLE fees and expenses, alimony, child support and eat with “volunteer” work, a state supreme justice sitting close to me in the audience smiled and agreed with my question. Lawyers spent more or less a quarter of a million dollars in tuition, fees, expenses and lost wages when I went to law school more than 40 years ago, That number has now more than doubled. They have to pay for that somehow, expecting to *profit*, to increase their income as a result of their *investment*.Many never break even, much less see a profit.
WAR is won by 2 primary resources, 1) Total, Clear and Determined Commitment to Victory and 2)Resources necessary to complete the fight. I was part of a team that intended to handle a client’s case through 2 court systems. In my opinion, shared by the other lawyers participating in the case, it could not be stronger in the facts or the law for our client to win. After 2 years of work I won my part. Then when the second part of the case went to the second court, the client lost the will to win and ceased cooperating with the highly skilled and more experienced lawyer who was handling the second part. We had all the resources necessary to win in both parts of the case-but the client decided to quit. Tens of Thousand of Dollars in time were devoted to that case by multiple lawyers who were never paid. So money is a necessary part of a legal war just as it is necessary for any other form of war.
You can’t pay bills with “feel good”. Sitting on the sidelines encouraging someone else to commit everything that is now or may become in the future available while putting nothing into the fight raises the question, “Why should I fight because you want to watch?” Are you *and all others who encourage war* so interested in the fight that you are ready, willing and able to commit for whatever time it takes to support the fight with your time and money? If not consider other approaches to helping Horowitz, Spencer and company to accomplish their real goals.
gravenimage says
Frank, that legal fight you were involved in sounds brutal. I agree that law suits have top be carefully entered into. I am no legal expert myself, but I know that when people casually advise others to sue and assume that they will easily win and be awarded huge damages are often mistaken.
When Ezra Levant published the Danish Mohammad Cartoons in 2006, an Imam complained and he was, insanely, dragged before the Alberta Human Rights Commission. He and Mark Steyn–facing similar accusations–decided to fight.
They actually won–and this was an extremely important victory for free speech. That same Imam had been using the “Human Rights Commission” to intimidate large numbers of people–this essentially ended.
But it came at a high cost–Ezra Levant was essentially bankrupted by the case, and lost his magazine, the Western Standard.
I am immensely grateful for Ezra Levant and Mark Steyn’s fight–but I acknowledge that I did not face any of their losses.
The courts are indeed an important arena in the fight against Jihad–but it has to be entered with one’s eyes wide open.
gravenimage says
have to
Frank Anderson says
BTW I *am* this very minute a lawyer. Not was, were or used to be. I am retired and still bound by all the rules of my license. That is why I regularly add to my comments the request to consult an attorney who is active in your jurisdiction for legal advice. I worked two jobs before law school to save about a third of the money needed. At law school I earned another third and borrowed the final third. I worked hard to earn my license, and fought with everything I had to keep it when crooks who were stealing money used their power and influence to take it away. I won. Check with any bar if there is any confusion about “retired” status.
Renate says
The SPLC desperately needs to be shut down.
jule says
At this time they are s bad as the UN. Both great ideas that somehow got rotten. Amnesty Int has the same problem. (like our schools are not getting the same problem spread)
gravenimage says
Yes, Jule–my husband and I were members of Amnesty International for many years. They have changed, and not for the better.
Palu says
I was under the impression that such deplorable actions of Patreon, GoFundMe, and MasterCard are easy fodder for lawyers to reap loads of cash in compensation, no?
Frank Anderson says
P. only on television. A lawsuit against giants with unlimited financial support is going to be a toe-to-toe fight using every dirty trick the rules of “civil” procedure allow. It could easily take a decade or more, with a number of appeals even before any trial; and God only knows how many after trial. Going after SPLC would create for them a major publicity and fund-raising opportunity free of charge. Unless their malpractice and general liability deny coverage, which means SPLC would sue their own insurance companies, SPLC would basically get a free ride unless the judgment after all appeals is greater than the insurance coverage. That is provided that an “offer of judgment” for all available insurance coverage is *not* made by the plaintiff and refused; followed by a judgment in excess of coverage, If an “offer” is made and refused, the insurance company has to pay the whole loss, even above the contract coverage limits. *I speculate* the recent payment of $3,375,000 represents the insurance coverage they had available to pay the person they defamed in their activities and did not want to risk losing more.
A fair guess as to an expense budget, not including any attorney fees, would be in the mid six figure range that the plaintiff DH and RS would have to pay along the way. This would be for court costs, transcripts, travel, experts, Taking a case possibly a decade or more in duration on a contingent fee would probably stress any attorney.. . .
I suggest anyone who supports the idea of a suit should look hard at his checkbook, bank balance and pay stubs to see how much he can send each month for 10 years or so to pay for this fight. It is one thing to sit on the sidelines and encourage someone else to get into a fight, and another to join the fight in person, even through financial contributions. Obviously, I hope, I have personal experience in this type of long duration war.
Please consult a currently licensed and practicing attorney in your jurisdiction for any legal advice.
gravenimage says
Good advice, Frank.
Frank Anderson says
GI, I hope you understand that I consider you, Spencer, Horowitz and many others who are part of this community friends even though we have never met. We friends join in understanding what islam would like to do to us and seek to resist. I hope the people who have much to risk consider my advice. It is the advice I would give anyone in my office for the highest rates I ever asked anyone to pay when I was practicing, as it should be. It is always written with the full knowledge and expectation that it could be reviewed in court or by the bar at any time. Therefore my advice must be as correct and correctly given as I know and clearly stated and supported by my research and experience. We can win IF we get out of indecision and get on with actions toward winning. “Pray as though everything depends on God; Act as though everything depends on US.” What acts? Any lawful acts that get the word in the right minds to bring together enough people determined to maintain freedom and liberty NOW, not some nebulous, indecisive point in the future when it is too late to do anything but die. We have not lost, Yet. But will we know before it happens? Why wait to find out? Thank you for your compliment.
gravenimage says
Thanks, Frank.
I am still optimistic that freedom can prevail–but I am not sanguine that it will.
del says
Although there are well-meaning “Progressives”, those are better described as “Dinosaur Progressives”. The character which is characteristic of the character of a “Modern Progressive” character is: vicious sanctimony. SPLC minions, as “Modern Progressives” and acolytes of Saul Alinsky, have no shortage of vicious sanctimony.
Guy Forester says
One needs to follow the money. What entity (bank, transmitter, etc.) refused the transaction? Who are the major shareholders, who is on the BOD, and who are the top level executives?
I suspect that the unmasking of these details would encounter various levels of holding companies, intermediaries, and other roadblocks to find out who is really calling the shots here.
Hint: An OPEC member country would most likely be involved. Russia? Nah.
Relic says
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a8oi0Mi91Q
Felix Quigley says
Running through these Fascist groups like the SPLC and WSWS.org is a hatred of Israel. Israel is the Jewish Homeland and a first principle of a Marxist is to defend the Jewish Homeland.
Running through the writings of Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller is the theme that Marx was Antisemitic. That the SPLC and such are also Antisemitic, which we know they are, but that they are also “Marxist” or as often claimed “Cultural Marxists”.
This is the crux of the problem. In attempting to defend against the lies of the SPLC, and answers those lies, Spencer, Geller and many followers on their website like “Gravenimage” weld in another lie. That these Fascists like SPLC are Marxist, that Marx was Antisemitic, so they as followers of Marx (which they are not) are also Antisemitic.
As an aside, not once has Spencer or Geller ever once placed on paper the real, historical refutation of Islam by Karl Marx, even though it has been drawn to their attention many times.
In his recent book on the history of Islam Spencer has refused to place on record the opposition of Karl Marx to Islam.
The opposition of Karl Marx to Islam, the description by Karl Marx of Islam as a most repressive ideology is an issue of great historical importance. It is also very relevant to the present (one cannot deny that relevance)
jule says
I am going to look into this. It might be the way to show the Left a little of what Islam really is and isn’t. It surely needs to be done. There is no way Islam can be called anything but SuperSpremacist fascist dictators pretending ALLAH is their leader. The Leftist kids hear..”oh, they do not believe in interest collections, they make everyone pay charity taxes to help support the group so They Must be the Good Guys, Right?” They have no idea, I have seen Muslims here in town hear this from them and kind of blink in disbelief, try to choke down a chuckle, but just nod and say ‘ Right, we’re the good guys for the People.’
gravenimage says
Felix Quigley wrote:
Running through these Fascist groups like the SPLC and WSWS.org is a hatred of Israel. Israel is the Jewish Homeland and a first principle of a Marxist is to defend the Jewish Homeland.
………………………….
Actually, many Marxists have been extremely hostile to the democratic, capitalist nation of Israel. In the 1980s, I worked with Jewish “Refuseniks” who had been oppressed in the Soviet Union, including not allowing them to flee to Israel, even when they had given up their possessions to the state.
More:
Running through the writings of Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller is the theme that Marx was Antisemitic. That the SPLC and such are also Antisemitic, which we know they are, but that they are also “Marxist” or as often claimed “Cultural Marxists”.
………………………….
Both Marxists and Cultural Marxists have been hostile to both Jews and Anti-Jihadists (and Jewish Anti-Jihadists). One of Felix Quigley’s few good points is that he himself does not appear to be antisemitic (although he whitewashes the antisemitism of Marx and Marxists).
More:
This is the crux of the problem. In attempting to defend against the lies of the SPLC, and answers those lies, Spencer, Geller and many followers on their website like “Gravenimage” weld in another lie. That these Fascists like SPLC are Marxist, that Marx was Antisemitic, so they as followers of Marx (which they are not) are also Antisemitic.
………………………….
Marx *was* antisemtic–all on has to do is read his essay on the “Jewish Question”.
I have never said that the SPLC is Marxist, although they can likely be characterized as “Culturally Marxist”, which is not always the same thing as classically Marxist.
And no–I never said that the followers of Marx must be antisemitic because the SPLC is–where is Felix Quigley getting this from? Citations, please.
But classical Marxists *have* generally been antisemitic–this was certainly true in the Soviet Union.
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As an aside, not once has Spencer or Geller ever once placed on paper the real, historical refutation of Islam by Karl Marx, even though it has been drawn to their attention many times.
………………………….
Actually, Marx and Engels only wrote about Islam in passing. In fact, Engels rather confusedly referred to Jews as a “small Bedouin tribe” just like the Muslims, and claimed that Judaism was “an ancient Arab religion”.
https://espressostalinist.com/2014/08/06/marx-and-engels-on-islam/
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In his recent book on the history of Islam Spencer has refused to place on record the opposition of Karl Marx to Islam.
The opposition of Karl Marx to Islam, the description by Karl Marx of Islam as a most repressive ideology is an issue of great historical importance. It is also very relevant to the present (one cannot deny that relevance)
………………………….
Why is Felix Quigley always demanding that Robert Spencer shill for Communism? I guess he hopes someone respected will…
And Marx had no special issue with the savagery of Islam that I can see–he had a lot more to say about his hatred of Christianity and Judaism.
jule says
Neither Marx nor Engles had anything but a very superficial view of Islam and Judaism. They said Jews were Bedouin! It was unbelievable the garbage they wrote about people they had not researched. Spencer would put them to shame. I was embarrassed to read their descriptions but that was not their expertise anyway. Religions did not interest them at all so they did not get into it but with propaganda. I think they both disliked any religion but none of what they superficially described about religions means anything accept dog whistles to all sides.
gravenimage says
Agreed, Jule.
Felix Quigley says
WVinMN above writes the following. It is confused rubbish lined with many lies. let us examine it…
“But a whole lot of actual terrorists did indeed show up; your Marxist, Islamic terrorist embracing ANTIFA filth managed to bring several THOUSAND LEFTWING freaks to DC. And what happened “Jule”? Oh yeah, ANTIFA brutally attacked the press, cops and private security. Just like they always do.
Tell us Jule, which party embraces Islam, routinely defends terrorists, has their candidates endorsed by the SPLC and CAIR? Which party is in bed with the murderous BLM, another Marxist terrorist organization with active ties between themselves and ISIS? Which party’s members never fail to label anyone daring to critically evaluate Islam an “Islamaphobic Bigot!”? Yeah, that would be the MARXIST DEMOCRAT PARTY!”
It is obvious that this person is weaving in his lying hatred of Karl Marx and of “Marxism” every chance he gets and he is not alone on the website created by Robert Spencer. Nor is the above challenged by anybody apart from my good self.
Take another apt quote…
“Extracts From Mein Kampf by Hitler
…The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature
and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of
numbers and their dead weight. Thus it denies the value of personality in man,
contests the significance of nationality and race, and thereby withdraws from
humanity the premise of its existence and its culture. As a foundation of the
universe, this doctrine would bring about the end of any order intellectually
conceivable to man. And as, in this greatest of all recognizable organisms, the
result of an application of such a law could only be chaos, on earth it could
only be destruction for the inhabitants of this planet.
If, with the help of his Marxist creed, the Jew is victorious over the other
peoples of the world, his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity and this
planet will, as it did thousands of years ago, move through the ether devoid of
men. ”
http://www.yadvashem.org
The similarity to what this person writes on Jihadwatch and to what the Nazi leader and architect of the Holocaust wrote is very striking. Gravenimage is silent, takes up no struggle against this filth, perhaps because she agrees, and is coming out of the same stable. Her hatred of Marx trumps her interests as a Jew. That is most telling. A new leadership will be totally needed too among the Jews.
jule says
Modern Israel is not Marxist or Communist. It is Capitalist. Many Jews came from Marxist/Communist type countries & have used a few of the ‘group strength’ ideas. Did you know Russia has been in Gaza-West Bank because these guys want ‘group strength’ also and go for a heavier communist type system. But only so far as it helps spread Islam. So many groups USE each other for ‘group strength’ but each one thinks it can eventually win who they use over. Capitalist globalists use Islam at present. Even Conservative ones. The FACT is that poverty is the problem and poor people get pulled into anything that says ‘we will help you’. There really is No ‘Capitalism, Communism, Marxism, But just Elites who USE an idea to ‘make a better society’ but then really use it to help their control group. Capitalism/Globalism has gone way wild for elites. All so called systems do when someone finds a way to take advantage. Then we have boatloads of left out angry poor or at least way less than the top with no way, no right paying jobs, no training to move out of their misery. It is not just Lazy vs workers. Thats one reason people listened to Trump. Because he said he would bring jobs back. If he really can is something I doubt because elite will not let go. Its on the Right and the left. Highly paid, off shored, money laundering, stuffing shell companies and banks and using slave labor all over….. It makes us ALL mad. The biggest POINT that we must agree on is Islam has to GO and then get the Globalist Corporate Money (who are fueled by Muslim countries) out of Washington. Israel does want and need ‘group strength’ just like we do. Islam wants it to but wants to take over everyone according to a Warlord RELIGIOUS way of control. But Capitalism wants to take over too. China wants its system of athiests and elite to take over. But Israel does not want to TAKE over, just preserve themselves. They have the right.
gravenimage says
True, Jule.
gravenimage says
To Felix Quigley:
I do *not* agree with the way WVinMN rudely went after Jule, but he did *not* quote Mein Kampf, as Felix Quigley pretends.
More:
The similarity to what this person writes on Jihadwatch and to what the Nazi leader and architect of the Holocaust wrote is very striking.
…………………….
No, it’s not. The idea that WVinMN said *anything* in opposing groups like Antifa that imply he wants a new Holocaust is just grotesque calumny.
Grimly, a lot on the Left like Antifa *have* been supporting Jihad. This especially pains me, because I am in many ways a classic Liberal myself, which hard-Leftist groups like Antifa definitely are not.
More:
Gravenimage is silent, takes up no struggle against this filth, perhaps because she agrees, and is coming out of the same stable.
…………………….
I’m “silent”? WVinMN only posted his comments a few hours ago.
But no–I don’t think that being critical of Antifa is “filth”. In fact, I think Antifa is quite an appalling group, and is more Fascist than Anti-Fascist.
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Her hatred of Marx trumps her interests as a Jew. That is most telling. A new leadership will be totally needed too among the Jews.
…………………….
“As a Jew”? No, I am not Jewish–I’m Gentile. One does not have to be Jewish to abhor the murderous antisemitism of Nazis, Muslims, and many Communists.
I am critical of Marx for his wrong-headed and thoroughly discredited economic ideas, and for his hatred of Jews. He has a hideously ugly legacy. This is not all his fault–he was not, of course, directly involved with Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or Kim Jong Un.
But this being the legacy of Communism is not causeless, either–the roots of all this horror do indeed lie in his theories.
And no–my interests, were I Jewish or Gentile, do *not* lie in the Trotskyite tyranny you want to impose on us all.
Obbop says
Eagerly awaiting the day when the snakes slithering within SPLC appear at military tribunals to answer to the charges brought against them. Fund seizure will help rebuild USA infrastructure. Those found guilty can be sentenced to years of hard labor assisting with that rebuilding.
UNCLE VLADDI says
Well reasoned!
When they’re done rebuilding America, I need them to help rebuild my castle, too!
UNCLE VLADDI says
Robert: How dare you so-proudly hate crimes and the criminals who commit them, you hatefully racist bigoted infidel?! Getting naturally perpetually angry (“hateful”) towards ongoing crimes (like islam) should be the very worst sin, while pitying all “criminals” as equally helpless fellow victims should be the highest moral virtue!
Because there is no free will; like is too complex for any of us to ever really be able to understand cause-and-effect facts and logic (if they even exist) so, since all “facts” are really ever only opinions anyway, our entirely fact-free subjective libertine liberal opinions are the Diversely opposite equals to you conservatives’ silly objective facts!
Whee!
Re:
“WePay [GoFundMe’s service to pay those who receive donations] is unable to process payments related to Hate, violence, racial intolerance, terrorism, the financial exploitation of a crime, or items or activities that encourage, promote, facilitate, or instruct others regarding the same.”
So then, logically, (something leftopaths assiduously avoid) they won’t allow them selves to fund anything … islamic?
😉
jule says
Even the left knows there are facts. If people do not eat they die. If people get sick they Spread disease for pan epidemics. everyone knows the Facts. All the different groups that Promise to help things be fair to help avoid the bad facts are attractive. But none of them work because some group always finds a way to take advantage. NAFTA/WTO really really hurt us. The old Dems used to be against it. I protested in Seattle 1990s. I am happy Trump is trying to change it. Because I am on the left still but not the NEODems and high Tech traitors here in Silicon Valley. A problem is that now we are so weak, people grasp at things that pretend they will help like Islam, Marxism, privatization,globalism, capitalism…..which all make it WORSE but people are grasping for help. BUT WE ALL MUST COME TO AGREE THAT ISLAM WILL HURT SO BAD THAT WE CANNOT HAVE IT HERE AS IT IS. But people have to see what it is.
Felix Quigley says
Jule writes
“Even the left knows there are facts. If people do not eat they die.”
And you give some more examples.
But you leave out the key facts of history concerning that Karl marx fought for full political rights for the Jews in Prussia (the big issue of the time)
And the key issue there is how could an Antisemite be fighting all out for political rights for the Jews of Prussia?
Something does not fit there in the narrative presented to us by Graveniamge, and by his silence also Robert Spencer.
Could it be that Karl Marx was NOT an Antisemite but was a fighter to defend the rights of Jews?
That is in fact what the evidence shows.
But Gravenimage has in her head a narrative that is stating all the time that Marx was an Antisemite.
So she leaves that out and to leave it out she has to distort the essay which we have been discussing.
So Jule how can we get the truth of history out to these young people you talk about? Will we follow Gravenimage who seeks to distort, seriously, historical truths? Or go into things properly and tell the truth?
The moral Jule…question everything this woman says. In fact the person who hated Marxists and hated Jews was Hitler. I am saying Gravenimage is at least halfway there. Her hatred of Marx is equal to that of Hitler and so I cannot see of what use Gravenimage will be in defending the Jews. I suggest no use at all. She without any doubt shares at least a large part of the programme of Hitler and the Nazis.
jule says
I think its late and you got unhinged a bit. None of this is about Marx accept leftest kids think Islam is Marxist and they are mad as heck at the way things have turned out today, mainly I think because of NAFTA/WTO and Monopolied elites and globalists. We ALL are but don’t know how to fix it.
But to change the Subject…..This is about Islam and its Danger to us. Because it really is. no joke. Have you read the Qur’an/Hadiths?
(We had a good go round here tonight)
gravenimage says
And here’s more from Felix Quigley:
(to Jule) But you leave out the key facts of history concerning that Karl marx fought for full political rights for the Jews in Prussia (the big issue of the time)
And the key issue there is how could an Antisemite be fighting all out for political rights for the Jews of Prussia?
…………………………..
Jule is not obligated to shill for Marx, either, if he does not want to.
More:
Something does not fit there in the narrative presented to us by Graveniamge (sic), and by his silence also Robert Spencer.
…………………………..
“By his silence”? Robert Spencer rarely weighs in on comments, nor should he be expected to.
More:
Could it be that Karl Marx was NOT an Antisemite but was a fighter to defend the rights of Jews?
That is in fact what the evidence shows.
…………………………..
Alas, it does not. But anyone can read Marx’s own words about the “Jewish Question”, which I have now posted here several times. Anyone can read this essay in less than ten minutes, and see for themselves if they are so inclined.
More:
But Gravenimage has in her head a narrative that is stating all the time that Marx was an Antisemite.
…………………………..
This was not some sort of preexisting “narrative”. It is Marx’s own words.
More:
So she leaves that out and to leave it out she has to distort the essay which we have been discussing.
…………………………..
Actually, I have left nothing out. I have linked to the text of the whole essay, which anyone can read.
More:
So Jule how can we get the truth of history out to these young people you talk about? Will we follow Gravenimage who seeks to distort, seriously, historical truths? Or go into things properly and tell the truth?
…………………………..
I am not asking anyone to “follow” me. Marx’s words speak for themselves.
Felix Quigley’s only real problem with me is that I do not agree with his wanting to impose a Trotskyite dictatorship on the world.
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The moral Jule…question everything this woman says.
…………………………..
That’s fine with me. I have always believed that everyone should think for themselves.
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In fact the person who hated Marxists and hated Jews was Hitler. I am saying Gravenimage is at least halfway there.
…………………………..
Of course Hitler hated Jews and Communists. The latter he considered rivals for power.
Just because Communists and Fascists were rivals for power does not mean that they did not have a great deal in common–including totalitarianism and antisemitism.
Now, the Communists on average were less virulent in their antisemitism than were the Nazis–but that is putting the bar pretty low.
And claiming I am l like Hitler because I don’t enjoy the idea of having to live in a Communist dictatorship is just grotesque.
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Her hatred of Marx is equal to that of Hitler and so I cannot see of what use Gravenimage will be in defending the Jews. I suggest no use at all.
…………………………..
No, my antipathy for Marx is nowhere near as great as that I have for Hitler. While Marx’s ideas have led to a great deal of suffering, he did not himself preach mass slaughter and genocide, as did Hitler.
Moreover, he did not himself live to see his ideas put into practice, as did Hitler. He was purely a theoretician, and as such may have believed that this idea would be more benign than they actually proved.
Hitler, of course, had no such excuse. He saw the results of his ideas in their full horror.
And the idea that I can be of no use in defending the Jews because I do not want to see them–or anyone–forced to live in a brutal Communist dictatorship is just absurd.
More:
She without any doubt shares at least a large part of the programme of Hitler and the Nazis.
…………………………..
Well, this is just grotesque calumny. Where have I *ever* said any such thing?
He must mean that I did not want to see the Soviet Union enslave all of eastern Europe. In that case, you could say the same of men like Winston Churchill.
Here is Churchill’s famous speech from 1946, where he said, “From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent.”
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/churchill-delivers-iron-curtain-speech
I am not comparing myself to the great Winston Churchill, of course–except that he recognized that Fascism, Communism, and Islam were all totalitarian creeds, and any freedom loving person stands against them all.
Garfield says
What’s needed if for Trump to invite Mr. Spencer to the WH!
He is an expert! He should be in the WH advising.
Renate says
That’s an excellent idea!
Felix Quigley says
“The left Moves To Silence Me” announces Robert Spencer on this post.
But no I do not seek to silence Spencer. In fact I think his recent book is of great importance. I seek to promote his book because his book tells the story of Islam.
Moreover these are not the “feelings” or “opinions” of Spencer. In most part they are the words of Muslim Chroniclers themselves.
So what Spencer writes in this book are not his allegations. This is not proof of what happened int he past by means of “allegation”. Spencer has went back into the past and allowed Muslim Chroniclers tell the story.
This is the way to do everything in this field.
But Gravenimage does not follow this method, which is essentially the method of science, that is science applied to history, on the understanding that history is NOT relative, where everyone has an opinion. No for Spencer history can be understood. We can understand what happened in the past. But there must be a way of proceeding, which is to present the facts and not allegation based on nothing at all.
Based on nothing at all, that is the method of Gravenimage.
Let me give you a few examples of what I mean.
Gravenimage tells us that Marx and Engels just dealt with the Marx opposition to Islam in passing. Of no real value and significance.
Is that true Gravenimage? We have no way of knowing or even what she is talking about. Source totally absent. Method of an imposter right there.
Gravenimage says that she does not like the economic policies of Marx. But what does she not like? Does not bother to say. Building up a hate picture on Marx. Again imposter.
Gravenimage claims that Marx was responsible for Stalin. How? Nothing from Graveniamge again.
Did any Marxists fight against Stalin you may wonder? You will continue wondering. Gravenimage leaves that out totally.
The Marx essay much quoted in Marx hating circles…Marx was fighting in this essay so that the Jews would enjoy full political rights in the state of Prussia. Such as full voting rights. And remain as Jews in Prussia. The essay was directed against the Jew Hating views of Bruno Bauer who was at that time part of the left, and in fact looked upon as a leader and authority.
If that is the case and it is the case then Marx was fighting AGAINST Antisemitism.
At every point Gravenimage has lied about this simple fact of history.
Is it of any contemporary significance that Marx defended the Jews in Prussia. I think great. Gravenimage disagrees on that so much that she seeks that that truth not be told.
Big issues here for sure.
gravenimage says
Felix Quigley wrote:
“The left Moves To Silence Me” announces Robert Spencer on this post.
But no I do not seek to silence Spencer.
…………………………….
Robert Spencer never said that Felix Quigley was specifically trying to silence him. Certainly, there are those on the Left who are not. Sadly, all too many are, though.
More:
In fact I think his recent book is of great importance. I seek to promote his book because his book tells the story of Islam.
…………………………….
That’s great.
More:
Moreover these are not the “feelings” or “opinions” of Spencer. In most part they are the words of Muslim Chroniclers themselves.
So what Spencer writes in this book are not his allegations. This is not proof of what happened int he past by means of “allegation”. Spencer has went back into the past and allowed Muslim Chroniclers tell the story.
This is the way to do everything in this field.
…………………………….
I definitely agree.
More:
But Gravenimage does not follow this method, which is essentially the method of science, that is science applied to history, on the understanding that history is NOT relative, where everyone has an opinion. No for Spencer history can be understood. We can understand what happened in the past. But there must be a way of proceeding, which is to present the facts and not allegation based on nothing at all.
Based on nothing at all, that is the method of Gravenimage.
…………………………….
What rot. In all cases I have backed up what I say with facts, and I have a background in history.
More:
Let me give you a few examples of what I mean.
Gravenimage tells us that Marx and Engels just dealt with the Marx opposition to Islam in passing. Of no real value and significance.
Is that true Gravenimage? We have no way of knowing or even what she is talking about. Source totally absent. Method of an imposter right there.
…………………………….
The source was *not* absent. I posted it above, and will post it again here–this was an exchange of letters between Marx and Engels on the subject, cited not by an Anti-Communist site, but a Communist one respectful of the material:
https://espressostalinist.com/2014/08/06/marx-and-engels-on-islam/
And note that Felix Quigley does not say that these letters are false, because he knows they are not.
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Gravenimage says that she does not like the economic policies of Marx. But what does she not like? Does not bother to say. Building up a hate picture on Marx. Again imposter.
…………………………….
I don’t believe that workers represent a distinct class, nor that capital and labor are enemies. I grew up on welfare and was homeless as a teenager, pulled myself out of it though education and hard work in a free market society, have worked as an employee, an independent contractor, and an employer. I have been both a renter and a property owner. I do not fall into any discreet class, and neither do many other people. I don’t believe in oppressing people based on their position at birth.
And it is clear that freedom and capitalism lead to greater prosperity, *not* Communism.
I do not like the horrors of Communism. They have never once led to anything but poverty and oppression, as I have said here many times. That is not “hate”–that is observable history.
Stalin’s Soviet Union was not a model, nor was Mao’s China, nor Fidel’s Cuba, nor Pol Pit’s Cambodia, nor Kim Jong Un’s North Korea. All of these places have been based on the ideas of Marx, and all of them are pretty much hell on earth.
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Gravenimage claims that Marx was responsible for Stalin. How? Nothing from Graveniamge (sic) again.
…………………………….
I said that while Marx did not know Stalin, that Stalin imposed Communism in the Soviet Union, and this led to nothing good. This is pretty straightforward.
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Did any Marxists fight against Stalin you may wonder? You will continue wondering. Gravenimage leaves that out totally.
…………………………….
I don’t have to give a treatise on the whole ugly history of Communism every time I post here, as Felix Quigley pretends. Yes, Stalin had rivals, many of whom he had liquidated, including Leon Trotsky. But none of the notable Communist rivals rejected Stalin’s embrace of Communism. This was more a jockeying for power in most cases than any serious ideological difference.
Besides, no one brought Stalin down. This would be like arguing that Nazism was really fine, and the only problem was that Hitler himself rather than one of his rivals held power. Now, if one of the plots to assassinate Hitler had worked, we might possibly have found someone a little less avid about carrying out the Holocaust and the conquest of Europe–but they still would have been a Fascist–*hardly* an ideal.
In the same way, Stalin’s successor Khrushchev was less hideous than Stalin, but only in degree. The Soviet Union was still a totalitarian oppressive state.
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The Marx essay much quoted in Marx hating circles…Marx was fighting in this essay so that the Jews would enjoy full political rights in the state of Prussia. Such as full voting rights. And remain as Jews in Prussia. The essay was directed against the Jew Hating views of Bruno Bauer who was at that time part of the left, and in fact looked upon as a leader and authority.
…………………………….
Marx cites Bauer, who is a vicious antisemite himself. But pretending that Marx is defending Jews when he says things like the religion of Jews being “hucksterism” is itself antisemitic. And anyone can read it here:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
And no–the Marxists.org site is *not* part of a “Marx hating circle”–it is, in fact, a Marxist archive.
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If that is the case and it is the case then Marx was fighting AGAINST Antisemitism.
At every point Gravenimage has lied about this simple fact of history.
…………………………….
Except that slandering Jews is *not* fighting against antisemitism, as anyone who reads this short essay can clearly see for themselves.
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Is it of any contemporary significance that Marx defended the Jews in Prussia. I think great. Gravenimage disagrees on that so much that she seeks that that truth not be told.
…………………………….
What tripe. If I didn’t want the truth to be told, why would I have quoted from Marx’s work, and have linked to the entire essay? If I hadn’t wanted anyone to know what Marx actually said, then surely I would have used false quotes, or at the very least not have linked to the article. Of course, I did neither. Marx’s words are quite damning enough. He is probably not quite as virulent an antisemite as Bauer, but this is damning with very faint praise.
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Big issues here for sure.
…………………………….
I suppose this is the case for someone hoping to present the horrors of Communism as benignant.
Felix Quigley says
If a person goes into the essay On The Jewish Question, available free on the net, you will come on a part where Marx praises very highly the American system as laid down by The Founding Fathers. Why does he like it? Why does he say it is best for Jews in America AND in Prussia?
He says it is best because The Founding Fathers were so wise in separating the State from any Church because there was no persecution of religion. People were totally free to practice their religion, but not in any state structure, such as a school.
And so America became a very religious country.
So ultimate proof. The proof was in the practice.
Marx in this essay strongly argues for that in Prussia. That would mean that in Prussia there would be no official state religion and Jews would be totally free to practice their religion as they wished.
So practical. Such great insight. Of such great contemporary significance.
It is nothing less than a crime of the worst kind to have a person like Gravenimage hiding that, which is down in black and white in the essay by Marx.
I would have thought that Jihadwatch was a great upholder of the American Constitution. So why is Gravenimage given licence to lie about this great issue?
gravenimage says
Yet more from Felix Quigley:
If a person goes into the essay On The Jewish Question, available free on the net, you will come on a part where Marx praises very highly the American system as laid down by The Founding Fathers. Why does he like it? Why does he say it is best for Jews in America AND in Prussia?
He says it is best because The Founding Fathers were so wise in separating the State from any Church because there was no persecution of religion. People were totally free to practice their religion, but not in any state structure, such as a school.
And so America became a very religious country.
So ultimate proof. The proof was in the practice.
Marx in this essay strongly argues for that in Prussia. That would mean that in Prussia there would be no official state religion and Jews would be totally free to practice their religion as they wished.
So practical. Such great insight. Of such great contemporary significance.
……………………………….
Well, this is just ridiculous. If Marx really thought that the American Founding Fathers were right, then he would have wanted a society like the United States–whereas he did not. He quite clearly rejected most aspects of the United States, such as a free market.
Most absurd is Felix Quigley’s claim that what Marx really wanted was a very religious society–when, in fact, he famously despised religion.
In fact, Marx says this:
“Since, however, the existence of religion is the existence of defect, the source of this defect can only be sought in the nature of the state itself.”
Obviously, he is neither praising religion nor uncritical of the United States here.
And anyone can read his words at the link:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
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It is nothing less than a crime of the worst kind to have a person like Gravenimage hiding that, which is down in black and white in the essay by Marx.
……………………………….
No, I am not hiding anything about Marx. Again, I linked to his own words–in fact, to his full essay. And no–it is not a “crime” to disagree with Marx, as Felix Quigley pretends.
Of course, in a totalitarian Communist state, such opinions *would* be a crime. Thank goodness, I live in a largely free country.
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I would have thought that Jihadwatch was a great upholder of the American Constitution. So why is Gravenimage given licence to lie about this great issue?
……………………………….
Well, this is just bizarre. Let’s unpack this, shall we?
Firstly, of course, I do not speak for Jihad Watch. I am a poster here, just as Felix Quigley and hundreds of others are.
Then, the idea that one upholds the Constitution–including the First Amendment–by not allowing licence to speak is just grotesque.
Then, of course, Felix Quigley cannot actually point to anything I have said that is untrue–by ‘lying’ he means that I do not fawn over the ugliness of Marx and Trotsky.
Jihad Watch *is* a great upholder of the American Constitution, and it did not get that way by demanding that posters praise totalitarian systems or lose their “licence” to post here.
And note that Felix Quigley is demanding that Jihad Watch silence me–whereas, I have never once said that he should be silenced, nor would I. He has every right to express his views–and I have every right to counter them. That is how freedom of speech works.
Of course, sadly one cannot really expect a Communist to be able to grasp this fundamental concept of freedom.
jule says
I profoundly appreciate and respect everything Gravenimage has ever written here, Especially how she is so respectful of others and does not twist or lie about anything I have seen her written here
Felix Quigley says
GI
Please say
What was then position of Jews in Prussia?
Felix Quigley says
I will give Gravenimage all the time she needs to answer that question about the position of the Jews in Prussia up until the time of the Marx struggle against Bruno Bauer in defence of the rights of Jews. That will help us today to understand what Marx was fighting for.
But, the total ignorance of this woman continues to astound. This is a person who has no trouble reading this very difficult essay in ten minutes, she has told us!!!
Anyway she tells us…
“And Marx had no special issue with the savagery of Islam that I can see–he had a lot more to say about his hatred of Christianity and Judaism.”
The savagery of Islam comes from ts supremacism, that it seeks to destroy all other religions and political movements, in a physical war called Jihad, until Islam rules the whole world. It is an ideology.
This was identified by Karl Marx a long time indeed before Spencer, Geller, Bostom, or any of those.
I wrote about this fact some years ago so there is no excuse for anybody not to know it…
begin quote from 4international
“While Pamela Geller, Robert Spencerm Andrew Bostom and quite a few others do a good job in explaining what a Fascist Ideology is Islam…their websites especially the comments section become full of lies about Marx and Islam, Marxism and Islam. This has got HUGE dangers for the international working class, for Jews, for youth, for us all
I have filed a copy of what Marx actually said about Islam. It is basically what we say, what Spencer, Geller and Bostom also say.
Marx said that Islam divides the world into two, into the believers of Islam and into the rest, and that Islam wages a perpetual war on the rest (as Boko Haram in Northern Nigeria today)
I have filed the exact quote (enter the German into google and you get the source) which is taken by that particular blogger from the German and it reads:
(begin extract here)
http://www.mlwerke.de . . .(link in original on 4international)
It’s straight from one of his books:
Karl Marx, “Die Kriegserklärung – Zur Geschichte der orientalischen Frage”, Marx-Engels-Werke, Band 10, S. 170.
Discussions
A quote about Islam … by Karl Marx ! (karma: 3) en>fr fr>en
By Axel_Bavaria Comments: 9498, member since Wed Apr 16, 2003
On Wed Nov 24, 2010 03:47 PM
German original:
„Der Islam ächtet die Nation der Ungläubigen und schafft einen Zustand permanenter Feindschaft zwischen Muselmanen und Ungläubigen.“
English translation:
“Islam ostracizes the nation of the unbelievers and creates a state of permanent enemyship between the moslems and the unbelievers.”
— Karl Marx (1818-1883)
So Marx stated that Islam was permanent war between the Muslim and the Infidel.
He wrote much more, much much more which the ignorant Gravenimage is obviously ignorant of, about historical Islam.
Or the moral is stop your ignorant lying because to get at the truth on htese matters it is necessary to wade through many lies and some of these lies have been directed against Marx too!
As an example of how Pamela Geller allows this continual branding of Marx as being in favor of Islam these are examples from yesterday:
…Aside from the fact that you can’t even spell your lover-boy’s name, the only pathetic joke is that we’re stuck with a vile Marxist and Moslem sympathizer as President.
He is saying that Obama is a Marxist. This is very, very common in all of these circles in all of the ruling clases in every country especially Europe and America. Some of this is bias and somewhat unconscious and of course some is very conscious. You often see one person on these blogs pushing this idea with great regularity as if they were on a mission.”
https://4international.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/what-karl-marx-really-said-about-islam-and-an-answer-to-bloggers-like-pamela-geller/