Having followed the recent trends in Saudi Arabia, I do think at least the attempts on MbS’ part is for real. A few weeks ago, there was the story here about how the ‘Muslims ↖️, Non-muslims ↗️’ signs are gone
There have also been reports on the Saudi education system being tweaked to start teaching the basics of religions like Buddhism and Hinduism, and not just insulting them as they did in the past. While one would wish that they provided the same courtesy to Christianity and Judaism, I can see why they haven’t so far: since the quran already makes bizarre claims about those 2, it’s impossible to teach the truth about these 2 w/o flying in the face of what the quran says. Note that I’m not condoning that omission, just explaining it. And while we’d all like to see a total overhaul of that country, it’s not possible unless that country has been conquered and occupied, something that nobody has a taste for. Given that, the crown prince is doing what he thinks is even remotely feasible
The other thing about this shift is that it comes at a time when the Saudi leadership of islam is being challenged by both Turkey and Iran. Given such a threat, any traditional Saudi ruler would have doubled down on Wahabi control, as opposed to trying to water it down. Particularly since in the US, what they have is no longer a president Trump calling on them to drive out extremists from their mosques and squares, but a squad which would be perfectly happy to endorse shariah supremacy anywhere. So they could have thrown their lot in w/ Hamas and cut recent links w/ Israel, but didn’t. That’s pretty noteworthy
I have a theory on this, and think that MbS might have a better chance at success than what RS or JS think. We’ve occasionally seen videos on social media of Saudi clerics berating non-Arab muslims: I once saw one on Twitter that showed one describe muslims from the Indian subcontinent as cowards for converting to islam ? I think that the Arabs don’t like the fact that they are a mere 30% or less of the world’s ummah, and w/ that increases the possibility that a majority of the world’s muslim population would be more open to a non-Arab leadership of islam than they are. Which is why they are not supportive of a world jihad against non-Arab muslims: the price of success would be the Arabs being even more outnumbered within the ummah. After all, when the Ottomans owned the caliphate, there wasn’t quite a universal allegiance to the Arabs.
So while the quran and sunnah may well prescribe jihad or conversion, chances are that the Arabs – particularly the Gulf Arabs, who’ve wasted trillions on foreign mosques and dawa projects – are starting to see how that has resulted in making them an even smaller minority of the world’s muslim population, and no longer have the taste for it. In recent years, except Qatar, most of the Gulf countries have stopped funding foreign mosques and dawa missions. While part of that may have been crashing oil prices, another major motivation would have been this realization. Sure, islam may well provide for that special status for Arabs, but that would be unsustainable in the long term as more foreign races become muslim. And since this attraction for islam happens when jihad is active, those Arabs are probably getting more aware that the real threat to them comes from Turkey, Iran and Pakistan, rather than Israel or India or Greece
That said, I don’t expect Saudi Arabia to ever become de-islamized per se, but I do think there is a good chance that they’ll one day become as relaxed as Bahrein, Emirates or Oman
gravenimagesays
Video: Jay Smith and Robert Spencer discuss Muhammad bin Salman’s proposed Islamic reform
…………………
Not sure I’d put a lot of stock in this “reform”–and it doesn’t seem to be taking on Islam itself, in any case. Saudi Arabia is still one of the most oppressive of all Islamic states.
Of course, I’d be happy to be wrong.
Wellingtonsays
My take for what it’s worth: Islam is hopeless and all attempts to redeem it, and some are indeed cleverer, even more tolerant, than others, are ultimately futile. Islam can no more be reformed than can Marxism or Nazism BECAUSE it is a totalitarian ideology and there is no reforming a totalitarian ideology.
So, MBS is, in effect, whether he realizes it or not, just buying time and not much more. And frankly, I also don’t trust this man. I trust no one, Muslim or non-Muslim, who attempts to “validate” Islam.
Truth and Islam are incompatible. This has long been my “starting point” and to date this assumption has never let me down.
My absolute minimum for looking the other way about Islam is that is should be able to be mocked, criticized, denigrated, etc. without any retribution for this by virtually any of Mo’s followers—same as with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, et al. The rare wacko is not what I am addressing here, rather it is the aggregate Muslim portion of mankind which I continue to see, with good reason I would argue, as a menace to liberty such as followers of other religions en masse are not.
Jodie Lindellsays
Well said and accurate.
Ade Fegansays
It will help islam ..
islam needs the smoke screen that moderates conveniently provide
jimjfoxsays
Varied opinions, all informative and interesting. It seems that something is afoot, with even the UK showing signs of realising what a cock up they’ve made. We can but hope.
E. Mariasays
Apparently this Jay Smith is a Protestant since he brings up Martin Luther & the Reformation. Then he says, ‘that’s how we got back on track.’ Really? Martin Luther was not a reformer but a distorter of the Church Jesus Christ founded; It’s NOT the bible alone. Christ did not institute the Bible but He instituted His Roman Catholic church. Catholic monks are the one’s who compiled the Bible together. If it wasn’t for the Catholic church, Protestants would not have a Bible today.
That’s why today, we have over 30,000 plus Protestant denominations because what they don’t like or believe, they start another Protestant church. I believe by Jay Smith bringing up Martin Luther, he should except comments from Catholics like myself.
gravenimagesays
E. Maria, are you *really* more concerned about castigating Protestants than you are opposing the threat of Islam? This seems a tad misguided…
stevosays
Not impressed with the protestants, particularly when they threw catholics and orthodox christians under the bus during the ottoman invasions of europe. they actually helped finance the ottomans, such was their hatred. Thank god the catholics prevailed at lepanto and gates of vienna with much blood shed. Buti must add, todays Pope is an extremely weak link, almost complicit in the takeover of the west, unlike his counterparts.
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Infidel says
I watched that video last night and was impressed
Having followed the recent trends in Saudi Arabia, I do think at least the attempts on MbS’ part is for real. A few weeks ago, there was the story here about how the ‘Muslims ↖️, Non-muslims ↗️’ signs are gone
There have also been reports on the Saudi education system being tweaked to start teaching the basics of religions like Buddhism and Hinduism, and not just insulting them as they did in the past. While one would wish that they provided the same courtesy to Christianity and Judaism, I can see why they haven’t so far: since the quran already makes bizarre claims about those 2, it’s impossible to teach the truth about these 2 w/o flying in the face of what the quran says. Note that I’m not condoning that omission, just explaining it. And while we’d all like to see a total overhaul of that country, it’s not possible unless that country has been conquered and occupied, something that nobody has a taste for. Given that, the crown prince is doing what he thinks is even remotely feasible
The other thing about this shift is that it comes at a time when the Saudi leadership of islam is being challenged by both Turkey and Iran. Given such a threat, any traditional Saudi ruler would have doubled down on Wahabi control, as opposed to trying to water it down. Particularly since in the US, what they have is no longer a president Trump calling on them to drive out extremists from their mosques and squares, but a squad which would be perfectly happy to endorse shariah supremacy anywhere. So they could have thrown their lot in w/ Hamas and cut recent links w/ Israel, but didn’t. That’s pretty noteworthy
I have a theory on this, and think that MbS might have a better chance at success than what RS or JS think. We’ve occasionally seen videos on social media of Saudi clerics berating non-Arab muslims: I once saw one on Twitter that showed one describe muslims from the Indian subcontinent as cowards for converting to islam ? I think that the Arabs don’t like the fact that they are a mere 30% or less of the world’s ummah, and w/ that increases the possibility that a majority of the world’s muslim population would be more open to a non-Arab leadership of islam than they are. Which is why they are not supportive of a world jihad against non-Arab muslims: the price of success would be the Arabs being even more outnumbered within the ummah. After all, when the Ottomans owned the caliphate, there wasn’t quite a universal allegiance to the Arabs.
So while the quran and sunnah may well prescribe jihad or conversion, chances are that the Arabs – particularly the Gulf Arabs, who’ve wasted trillions on foreign mosques and dawa projects – are starting to see how that has resulted in making them an even smaller minority of the world’s muslim population, and no longer have the taste for it. In recent years, except Qatar, most of the Gulf countries have stopped funding foreign mosques and dawa missions. While part of that may have been crashing oil prices, another major motivation would have been this realization. Sure, islam may well provide for that special status for Arabs, but that would be unsustainable in the long term as more foreign races become muslim. And since this attraction for islam happens when jihad is active, those Arabs are probably getting more aware that the real threat to them comes from Turkey, Iran and Pakistan, rather than Israel or India or Greece
That said, I don’t expect Saudi Arabia to ever become de-islamized per se, but I do think there is a good chance that they’ll one day become as relaxed as Bahrein, Emirates or Oman
gravenimage says
Video: Jay Smith and Robert Spencer discuss Muhammad bin Salman’s proposed Islamic reform
…………………
Not sure I’d put a lot of stock in this “reform”–and it doesn’t seem to be taking on Islam itself, in any case. Saudi Arabia is still one of the most oppressive of all Islamic states.
Of course, I’d be happy to be wrong.
Wellington says
My take for what it’s worth: Islam is hopeless and all attempts to redeem it, and some are indeed cleverer, even more tolerant, than others, are ultimately futile. Islam can no more be reformed than can Marxism or Nazism BECAUSE it is a totalitarian ideology and there is no reforming a totalitarian ideology.
So, MBS is, in effect, whether he realizes it or not, just buying time and not much more. And frankly, I also don’t trust this man. I trust no one, Muslim or non-Muslim, who attempts to “validate” Islam.
Truth and Islam are incompatible. This has long been my “starting point” and to date this assumption has never let me down.
My absolute minimum for looking the other way about Islam is that is should be able to be mocked, criticized, denigrated, etc. without any retribution for this by virtually any of Mo’s followers—same as with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, et al. The rare wacko is not what I am addressing here, rather it is the aggregate Muslim portion of mankind which I continue to see, with good reason I would argue, as a menace to liberty such as followers of other religions en masse are not.
Jodie Lindell says
Well said and accurate.
Ade Fegan says
It will help islam ..
islam needs the smoke screen that moderates conveniently provide
jimjfox says
Varied opinions, all informative and interesting. It seems that something is afoot, with even the UK showing signs of realising what a cock up they’ve made. We can but hope.
E. Maria says
Apparently this Jay Smith is a Protestant since he brings up Martin Luther & the Reformation. Then he says, ‘that’s how we got back on track.’ Really? Martin Luther was not a reformer but a distorter of the Church Jesus Christ founded; It’s NOT the bible alone. Christ did not institute the Bible but He instituted His Roman Catholic church. Catholic monks are the one’s who compiled the Bible together. If it wasn’t for the Catholic church, Protestants would not have a Bible today.
That’s why today, we have over 30,000 plus Protestant denominations because what they don’t like or believe, they start another Protestant church. I believe by Jay Smith bringing up Martin Luther, he should except comments from Catholics like myself.
gravenimage says
E. Maria, are you *really* more concerned about castigating Protestants than you are opposing the threat of Islam? This seems a tad misguided…
stevo says
Not impressed with the protestants, particularly when they threw catholics and orthodox christians under the bus during the ottoman invasions of europe. they actually helped finance the ottomans, such was their hatred. Thank god the catholics prevailed at lepanto and gates of vienna with much blood shed. Buti must add, todays Pope is an extremely weak link, almost complicit in the takeover of the west, unlike his counterparts.