From the looks of this article, Welby didn’t say a word about Muslims’ history of “the tragic sin of force,” or about the ongoing Muslim persecution of Christians in Nigeria and elsewhere today. Nor does there seem to have been any reciprocal appeal from any Muslim leader. The outreach, in this case as in every other case, is all in one direction only. But no one ever seems to notice, care, or ponder the implications of that.
“Welby in Egypt: Christians and Muslims must work together for peace,” by Gerald Butt, Church Times, October 11, 2021 (thanks to Henry):
THE Archbishop of Canterbury has urged Christians and Muslims to work together in the cause of peace, acknowledging that, at times in the past, Christians had failed to live up to the ideals of their faith in encounters with Islam.
Archbishop Welby’s call came in a sermon at All Saints’ Cathedral, Cairo, during a service of thanksgiving for the new Anglican/Episcopal Province of Alexandria.
“Christians are to be part of a Church that is told to conquer with love and peace,” he said. “Never, never with a sword, a bomb, or a plot. Either Christians demonstrate the truth of God or they demonstrate nothing by the quality of their lives.
“And I say to our dear friends from the Islamic community: how often have Christians got this wrong. Our history is one of the tragic sin of force. Let us be people of peace together.”…
Accompanied by Dr Fawzy, Archbishop Welby had talks with the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shawky Allam, and Ahmed al-Tayeb, Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar, the main seat of Sunni Islamic scholarship. “At this time of great crises in our world,” the Archbishop wrote after the meeting, “it’s especially important that we keep building bridges of friendship across different faiths. Grateful for the Grand Imam of al-Azhar’s deep commitment to this vision.”…
somehistory says
All of these modern-day wolves have completely thrown off their sheep’s clothing and have exposed themselves as just what they are: false shepherds, misleading the flock which belongs to our Holy God and to His Holy Son, Jesus Christ.
Christ warned us about these wolves wearing the clothing of sheep…pretending to be Christians and a part of God’s flock. They are like Queen Jezebel and her king husband, ahab. They cared only for the interests of those who worshipped ba’al, and these modern false shepherds are looking out for the interests of the same group…ba’al worshippers… calling their false god by a different name, but he is the same demon snake Jezebel worshipped and killed for.
No Christian should pay any attention to these sons of the demon snake.
mortimer says
He isn’t snake or a wolf. The UK government wants him to speak for them sometimes for political purposes. Welby understands Islam.
somehistory says
You are so very, very, very wrong. He is both snake…son of satan the original serpent….and serpents are snakes, fyi….and Jesus said these creatures are “wolves in sheep’s clothing.”
You should try to ***learn**** something and stop being such a know-it-all.
Christians are not to “speak for politicians.” Again, go away until you learn something and know how to comment to others.
It’s curious to me that you know more about islam than anything else you might know and to me that is also suspicious. Perhaps that is why you so often write of mozlums learning that their book of filth…which you quote so well…is man-made and that they can be programmed out of it. But, the programming doesn’t work, does it?
mortimer says
GI, you did not read Welby’s nuanced words carefully.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/archbishop-canterbury-justin-welby-london-attack-islam-twisted-misused-muslim-faith-a7772916.html
He said the opposite of what you think he said. He said that ‘it is also an ideological problem.’ He said Muslim leaders should deal with it.
Welby does not deny jihadism but acknowledges its existence. He is very cautious in his wording. You think he is too careful. His position makes diplomacy a necessity.
About half of Christian clergy ‘get’ Islam is not benign and about 100% of clergy who were military chaplains ‘get’ it too. Welby ‘gets’ it.
bill says
The bible is also man made as it clearly show the level of knowledge of the men who wrote. As ‘god’ is supposed to be omniscient he she or it would not have written nonsense and things showing lack of knowledge
gravenimage says
Mortimer, your idea that excoriating Christians for something they are not doing while giving oppressive and violent Islam a pass is good for the UK is just bizarre. How is this falsity beneficial for Britain, for Anglicans, or for any Christians suffering in the Muslim world?
Besides, any Christian who cared about his flock would ignore such demands from a government, and would say so. Then, do you have any proof that these are not his own views, but instead threats from the British government? Citations, please.
mortimer says
Reply to GI: The fact that Christians don’t spread Christianity with the sword is not controversial. It is from the New Testament and is the view of Jesus.
What this forum is objecting to is that Welby was obliquely referring to the Crusades without mentioning the word, because for Muslims, Christians are all evil, impertinent Crusaders by popular Muslim prejudice. They see the flag of the United Kingdom as three Crusader flags in one. Whether we like it or not, that’s how Muslims see us before we even open our mouth. That accusation is always in their minds. Addressing that misconception in the minds of Muslims was a smart thing to do, and it was likely suggested to him by someone who helped with the speech and who knew the territory. He was teaching the Egyptians something they do not want to hear or believe. Their minds are made up: Christians are kafirs and Crusaders, that’s that … Muslims feel no need to question it … but Welby actually challenged that incorrect view.
Welby is a not only the leader of the established, national church of England, but a member of the House of Lords and as a politician, he is in constant contact with leading politicians. This international event was not only a church matter, but a matter of international diplomacy, so the Foreign Office would surely have been involved and asked for a rundown of his remarks in advance. If they didn’t, they would have been negligent.
This archbishop’s office is political whether anyone likes that or not. He represents the nation whenever he is abroad.
somehistory says
Christians …those people who really are…know that they must always speak the Truth…even if it means they are putting their life in danger.
If welby couldn’t speak the Truth, he should keep his mouth shut.
Of course, he doesn’t seem to know Christianity’s teachings very well. He speaks more like a “wolf in sheep’s clothing”…one who “does not treat the flock with tenderness.”
He went their to scold Christians for something that the mozlums are doing. That makes him a liar.
gravenimage says
Welby said that Christians have so often gotten not spreading the faith by the sword wrong. He was not affirming that Christians do not do this as you claim.
And while Muslims do often call all Christians Crusaders (never mind that the Crusades were largely defensive wars), the fact is that no honest Muslim (a stretch, I realize) actually thinks that oppressed Christians in Egypt are actually Crusaders–and Welby’s implying that they are does not help Christians as you bizarrely continue to assert.
And your claim that Robert Spencer is fine with Welby lying about Christians but is simply upset that he didn’t specifically excoriate the Crusaders while he was at it is utterly bizarre.
somehistory says
What he said is very much like what ‘o’ said….right here in the U.S. where we can still tell the Truth about some things….about Christians getting “on their high horses.” ‘o’ was referencing the Crusades when Christians were just protecting themselves from the onslaught of mozlums intent on taking every Land…from Jerusalem to…the ends of the earth, wherever Christians lived…but lyingly, intimating that Christians are just as bloodthirsty as mozlums, so we shouldn’t complain about what mozlums are doing **today**
Absolving mozlums of their murderous ways by pretending that Christians go about murdering to “spread the word,” at the same time Christians are being slaughtered in many places…while mozlums live free and easy wherever Christians may be in the majority.
Stabbing in the back those who have to live there, by one who pretends to be of the “flock” and gladly castigates them to their enemies.
somehistory says
Well, he’s a politician…not a Christian, so he can go soak his ugly head. He’s a snake and a wolf who is speaking lies to the same group that the pope has kissy face with.
What he is sowing, he will also reap.
mortimer says
GI, you are using European glasses, rather than Muslim glasses to view this.
In negotiating with someone who hates you, it is common to start by mentioning something both parties can agree on, then move on to find other agreement. Muslims agree that Christians used barbaric force against Islam in the past. That is where THEY want to start.
Welby wasn’t lying … he was talking to Muslims from their starting point in an attempt to open their minds to what the church actually teaches. He started where THEY are at, not where WE are at.
Muslims have many unexamined prejudices against Christians. Welby’s words are very carefully chosen to invite a Muslim audience to lay aside adamant prejudice against Christians and open their minds if only a little. He asked that they entertain that the church actually teaches non-aggression. Muslims have probably never considered that the church opposes the use of force to spread Christianity. This may be obvious to you, but it’s radical, if not heretical to them.
Changing a Muslim’s prejudice is not easy to do, since they hold on so tenaciously to their closed minds.
gravenimage says
Mortimer wrote:
GI, you are using European glasses, rather than Muslim glasses to view this.
In negotiating with someone who hates you, it is common to start by mentioning something both parties can agree on, then move on to find other agreement. Muslims agree that Christians used barbaric force against Islam in the past. That is where THEY want to start.
Welby wasn’t lying … he was talking to Muslims from their starting point in an attempt to open their minds to what the church actually teaches. He started where THEY are at, not where WE are at.
Muslims have many unexamined prejudices against Christians. Welby’s words are very carefully chosen to invite a Muslim audience to lay aside adamant prejudice against Christians and open their minds if only a little. He asked that they entertain that the church actually teaches non-aggression. Muslims have probably never considered that the church opposes the use of force to spread Christianity. This may be obvious to you, but it’s radical, if not heretical to them.
……………………….
Mortimer, Welby spoke these words in a sermon at All Saints’ Cathedral in Cairo–your claim that he was adressing a Muslim audience is mistaken.
And if this were said to a Muslim audience it would have been even worse–the implication that Christians in Egypt or anywhere else are forcibly converting Muslims–completely untrue–would just further endanger Christians there.
Then, if you *really* want to talk to Muslims “at their starting point” why just say that Christians are forcibly converting Muslims–why not go all out and just affirm that Muslims have the right to slaughter Christians? After all, if your aim is to enforce the Muslim point of view, this is how they see things.
More:
Changing a Muslim’s prejudice is not easy to do, since they hold on so tenaciously to their closed minds.
……………………….
There is absolutely no indication that this is Welby’s aim, save for the vague and pro forma reference to Christians and Muslims “must work together for peace”–as though Christians were the impediment to that.
He has spouted this sort of false moral equivalence before:
“Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby: London attack link to Islam as Christians killing Muslims is linked to Christianity”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/archbishop-canterbury-justin-welby-london-attack-islam-twisted-misused-muslim-faith-a7772916.html
MR ELTON S CLOUGH says
All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
Keys says
What does he know about the past with his pampered ivory tower living in his ‘no-skin-in-the-game’ life ?
mortimer says
Welby should stand up for the persecuted Christians in Nigeria which has the largest national Anglican church in the world.
JOEYN says
There are plenty of idiotic liars like these among the clergy in Christian churches. In fact the current Catholic Pope is one of them.
There are even some who invite the big-time Muslim liar and crook Reza Azlan into to their churches to give sermons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zi4o242d2s.
Unbelievable but true!
mortimer says
Any Christians behind Muslim lines are hostages, whether we like it or not. That is something People in this forum should consider here. Christians in Muslim countries know all about it. The Coptic Church of Egypt has a long history of regular martydoms, often provoked by the slightest of caused perceived slights or merely inaccurate rumors.
Welby is trying to open a new relationship with Egypt and so his tone is conciliatory and uncontroversial, since his hosts are present. It would be foolhardy to scold Muslims about Islamic terrorism on the home turf of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim vigilantes would as night follows day burn down all the Anglican churches and buildings in Egypt and then attack Coptic, Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches as well … perhaps with the people in them.
Probably people in this forum have forgotten the violent reactions of Muslims following the Regensburg Address of Benedict XVI, a rather dry lecture called “Faith, Reason and the University – Memories and Reflections”. Mullahs took aim at it and stirred up the Muslims mob. People were killed and decapitated, one an Assyrian priest, Muslims and Muslim governments protested and many Muslims rioted, churches were attacked and the Vatican beefed up its security.
When high-ranking Christian clergy complain about Islam, expect fireworks and vigilante killings.
gravenimage says
Mortimer, your idea that it helps Christians in the Muslim world for Christian leaders to lie about their forcing conversions is *utterly false*–if anything, this lie would put them in further danger.
If Christian leaders are worried about Christians in the Muslim world being in further danger, they should simply say nothing.
mortimer says
Reply to GI: Welby’s remarks are more challenging to Muslims than you know. Welby took on the most common prejudice of Muslims (namely, that all Christians are vicious, evil, dirty Crusaders looking for a chance to attack Muslims who are the moral superiors to dirty Christians and that this is what the church teaches them to do). Welby admitted that the use of force historically has been used by European rulers to make new Christians, but their use of force was not sanctioned by the New Testament. The church of today is honest enough to admit the errors of those Christian rulers in the past. They were not, he explains, following church teaching as understood today. That was his point: namely, Muslims should understand what the NT actually says, rather retain their prejudices against Christians. They should realize that the NT doesn’t sanction the abuse of Muslims. That the obstinate belief and prejudice that most Muslims actually have. Welby was attempting to educate the Muslims to question their unexamined prejudice. Nonetheless, I don’t the speech changed Muslim minds. Muslims don’t read the NT much and so few of them will understand the archbishop’s remarks, and they will reject him as another kafir, and continue rigidly to believe that all Christians are barbaric Crusaders and dirty kufaar, etc.
Opinion polls and surveys show most Muslims are extremely bigoted against Christians and have a horribly unfavorable opinion of them.
gravenimage says
Mortimer, Christians and others in the West have been publically castigating themselves for the Crusades and ignoring the history of Islamic savagery for well over a century now, and increasingly over the past few decades. This has not actually proven “challenging” to Muslims–instead, it has if anything further emboldened them.
Then, the idea that Muslims are only violent towards Christians because they believe that Christians are violent is not borne out, historically or otherwise. There is no claim even in the Qur’an that Muslims were violent towards Christians due to Christian violence.
Moreover, many Muslims castigate Christians over any idea of self-defence, claiming that Christianity demands complete pacifism in the face of Islamic aggression. Clearly, these are not Muslims who think that Christians are violent, and violent due to their scriptutes.
And Muslims are bigoted against Christians because their vicious creed demands it, not because they think that this is still the 12th century.
somehistory says
Oh my goodness. Such excuses for those people …welby included…who have the false idea that they have to walk on eggs so that Christians don’t get persecuted….(this isn’t happening, he and the pope are both doing something entirely different)
Christians are persecuted….for the simple reason that they are Christians, Jesus said this would happen; in fact, He said it many times that this persecution, even to death, is due to “hatred” of Him. mozlums don’t **need** a reason to murder, rape, burn, torture, …they have their book of filth that demands that they do so and they enjoy carrying out the commands.
So, if this guy…and others…go to a mozlum country and speak “peace’ to the mozlums in the false belief that they can’t speak Truth or “Christians will be persecuted,” they don’t have a clue about anything, much less what Jesus said regarding persecution.
But, this is not the “reason” they are doing this…it is not to “protect” the Christians in mozlum lands.
Your comment to “people in this forum,” I must say, is full of bologna.
mortimer says
Pope Benedict’s Regensberg Address led to people getting killed and churches torched. The address was not even given in a Muslim country.
gravenimage says
Muslims murdering people was not due to Pope Benedict. He did not call for violence–he simply noted that Islam is violent, and pious Muslims proved him right.
Mortimer, your idea that if only Infidels are big enough dhimmis that it will assauge Muslims and make them peaceful is incorrect.
somehistory says
You never learned that it is not possible to “win the hearts and minds” of mozlums.. Telling them what they believe as though it is true, gets one nowhere fast.
Keep making excuses for the lies, and for your mozlum friends and it will get you nowhere fast.
You pretend to believe in Jesus, but you use the Scriptures to misapply them in an effort to prove your false points.
True Christians have ****never**** spread the Word with the sword. You should begin with that fact before you try telling others what the Bible says and how this should be used as a lying way to change the minds…loose term used here…of mozlums.
Liars have a place in the Lake of fire. lying to the mozlums…even if you mistakenly believe what you say is true…in order to “win them over” is a fool’s errand.
But, you won’t get any of this because you have the arrogance of mozlums.
mortimer says
Some people think Pope Benedict retired due to threats from the Muslim world.
somehistory says
And some people **know** that george soros paid the cardinals to oust benedict so he could get the guy from Argentina in as a pretend Christian who would work for the nwo.
Some people say that “every man has his price.”…and that goes for groups of men, also.
mortimer says
GI mischaracterizes my points: “your idea that if only Infidels are big enough dhimmis that it will assauge Muslims and make them peaceful is incorrect”.
No, it isn’t a matter of being a dhimmi. It’s a matter of starting where the Muslims are at. In negotiation, that’s where you start. You start with some point of agreement.
No, GI. Choosing your words carefully is not ‘lying’. It’s a good thing to do at all times, especially if it helps orevent fanatical Muslims from killing many innocent people and doing a lot of property damage. I see you do not use your legal name in this forum and for the same reason. When we use a pen name, are we lying?
Unfortunately, you have made a straw man mischaracterization of my points and then attacked the mischaracterization.
You probably know the quote that ‘Diplomacy is the art of allowing our opponent to have our point of view.’
somehistory says
Oh, so welby “used a pen name” when he went down and accused Christians of being the ones who murder in order to “spread” their belief.
He was just doing as most others do when writing books or making comments on a thread where they don’t want to allow all of the world’s psychopaths to know who they are so they can be harassed, have their identity stolen, etc. welby didn’t want the mozlums…or the Christians…to know who he was.
In case you didn’t know, it is a dangerous thing to agree with a psychopath, but especially if 1, he can use the information to hurt you and 2 what he believes isn’t true.
Agreeing with a psychopath when he is wrong is not the way to disabuse him of his wrong ideas.
welby accusing Christians of something they never did is not the way to help them not be slaughtered by mozlums who are going to slaughter whenever they have the opportunity.
welby is just making things worse…giving the idea that Christians are guilty of murder, and reinforcing this in the minds of those psychopaths who seek every “offense” they can in order to prove to the world that they have just cause on their side; that Christians deserve everything mozlums dish out.
Don’t eat the pork…mozlums will be offended. Don’t look mozlums in the eye….they get offended by that.
Don’t tell the Truth whatever you do because it really offends mozlums. Sure, mortimer; those things work…not.
gravenimage says
Mortimer wrote:
GI mischaracterizes my points: “your idea that if only Infidels are big enough dhimmis that it will assauge Muslims and make them peaceful is incorrect”.
No, it isn’t a matter of being a dhimmi. It’s a matter of starting where the Muslims are at. In negotiation, that’s where you start. You start with some point of agreement.
…………………….
Mortimer the idea that Christians are forcibly converting Muslims to Christianity is false–no Christian is doing this today, nor for a very long time (and as you note, this was never according to Christian scripture). The claim that this accusation against threatened Christians in Egypt is somehow intended to help them makes no sense.
And Muslims want to force Christians and other Infidels to submit or die–the implication that these are reasonable people to negotiate with is just bizarre.
Given that Christians in Egypt just want to be allowed to live free of opression and violence, what would such an agreement even look like? Please just persecute and murder us a little bit less?
More:
No, GI. Choosing your words carefully is not ‘lying’. It’s a good thing to do at all times, especially if it helps orevent (sic) fanatical Muslims from killing many innocent people and doing a lot of property damage.
…………………….
The Archbishop of Canterbury could just have stayed quiet instead of spouting dangerous calumny against his fellow Anglicans in Egypt.
The very fact that you note the default treatment of Christians by Muslims being destruction of property and threatening murder *should* give you a clue that pious Muslims are not to be reasoned with.
More:
I see you do not use your legal name in this forum and for the same reason. When we use a pen name, are we lying?
…………………….
No one here has ever thought that my given name is “gravenimage”, nor have I ever presented it as my legal name.
I found this site and began reading and commenting here in 2006–this was after the Fatwa on Salman Rushdie, the murder of Theo van Gogh, and the Danish Muhammed Cartoons. I am also, while not famous with a capital “F”, somewhat well known for my art and literary work. I knew that I could not afford ’round the clock security, nor did I want to endanger myself and my loved ones more than necessary.
I am not going to apologize for protecting myself against ravening Jihadists–why should I? The idea that this is dishonest is absurd.
Then, I don’t know if your name is really Mortimer–it might be, but this is not a common name, so I imagine it is likely a pen name. And even if it is not, you don’t post as “Mortimer Smith”, say. (Even some people who use full names here are actually using psuedonyms–I am in touch with some posters here and know this first hand). And you have never said where you are from–I assume you are likely an American from your phrasing, but I don’t even know that for certain. Please note that I am *not* faulting you for this–it is none of my business, and is only prudent.
But I have *always* tried to be scrupulously honest here. This does not mean that I cannot have been mistaken on some points, and some of my views have evolved over the years (for instance, I was somewhat more hopeful over the idea of Islamic reform when I first came here). And I have certainy learned a great deal about the texts and tenets of Islam and its history since arriving here.
But given these small caveats, I have always tried to be honest in everything I say here. Can you point to any case where you believe I have not been?
In fact, I think that we have truth on our side, and that telling the truth about Islam and the threat it presents to us is our greatest asset in our fight to survive the threat of Islam.
More:
Unfortunately, you have made a straw man mischaracterization of my points and then attacked the mischaracterization.
…………………….
How so?
More:
You probably know the quote that ‘Diplomacy is the art of allowing our opponent to have our point of view.’
…………………….
I don’t know this quote–I know David Frost said, “Diplomacy is the art of letting somebody else have your way”.David Frost is probably best known here in the US for inteviewing Nixon in 1977. He worked for Al Jazeera towards the end of his life. He also sneered at the idea that the deaths at Beslan were caused by the Jihad terrorists.
In any case, the idea that if you lie about Christians that this will somehow lead violent supremacist Muslims to come around to the idea of peace with Christians makes no sense at all.
In fact, Mortimer, you yourself have affirmed the hatred of Christians and other Infidels in Islamic texts. How has spouting false moral equivalence *ever* led Muslims to reject Islam and embrace equal religious rights for those they regard as the “filthy Kuffar”?
Michael Copeland says
“Does Islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit….? Yes!”
Osama bin Laden
“Holy war… a religious duty to convert everybody …by persuasion or by force.”
Ibn Khaldun
mortimer says
Yes, Michael and that is why you don’t provoke Muslims with any critical comment when you are outnumbered 99 to 1, especially not in the home country of the fascist Muslim Brotherhood.
gravenimage says
Mortimer, your idea that Christians and other Infidels are only in danger in Dar-al-Islam if anyone dares to cite the truth about Islam is much mistaken. Christians are indeed persecuted and oppressed in Egypt, and it is not the fault of Christian clerics. Islam itself calls for this treatment of non-Muslims, as you well know.
somehistory says
mortimer is carrying the banner for mozlums who say that they have “reason” to murder….it’s the victims’ fault for having the temerity to speak the Truth.
mortimer says
To GI and somehistory: First of all, you don’t seem to appreciate that Egypt is the home base of the Muslim Brotherhood, a leading terrorist organization. The Muslim Brotherhood is virtually the Egyptian Nazi Party. They are always looking for excuses. Egypt is a powderkeg because of the MB. The MB is the second largest political movement in Egypt. It was the best-organized political force in Egypt, with adherents estimated to number between 2 and 2.5 million.
If GI and somehistory want to take on the MB, they should hire a platoon of bodyguards, before they do it and find a new home built like a fortress.
If Welby had made the remarks that they would like to hear, he would not have left Egypt alive. His diplomatic mission would have failed. Members of this forum don’t seem to like diplomacy, but diplomacy often changes things better than a war.
We still don’t have a way around Muslim vigilantism. Don Corleone said, ‘You can kill anyone, even the president. You just have to be willing to give up your own life.’
Muslims are experts at using the Heckler’s Veto.
somehistory says
mortimer is implying that he knows everything about everything.
The mb were banned until you best bud went down to Egypt and had them sit in the front row of seats while he gave his infamous speech.
The mb spawned al queda, sending bin laden to afghanistan to train to fight.
The mb have their operatives in the U.S. and elsewhere.
And you wrote, “f Welby had made the remarks that they would like to hear,”
I didn’t say I “would like to hear” him say a word. He should keep his mouth shut if he can’t do other than lie about Christianity.
One day, hopefully sooner than even I believe, mozlums the world over, and those who speak for them, and lie for them, will find out just where it all ends.
gravenimage says
Mortimer wrote:
To GI and somehistory: First of all, you don’t seem to appreciate that Egypt is the home base of the Muslim Brotherhood, a leading terrorist organization. The Muslim Brotherhood is virtually the Egyptian Nazi Party. They are always looking for excuses. Egypt is a powderkeg because of the MB. The MB is the second largest political movement in Egypt. It was the best-organized political force in Egypt, with adherents estimated to number between 2 and 2.5 million.
……………………
Your implication that I am ignorant of the Muslim Brotherhood makes no sense at all–I have been writing about them here for years, and have read original works like Sayyid Qut’b’s “Milestones”.
I certainly don’t expect you to have an encylopedic memory of my posts, but I cannot believe that you really think I am ignorant of their existance or their threat.
But the idea that it is only the Muslim Brotherhood that is a threat to Christians in Egypt is mistaken. Often entire villages of Muslims attack Christians–this is mainstream Islam, not just the MB.
More:
If GI and somehistory want to take on the MB, they should hire a platoon of bodyguards, before they do it and find a new home built like a fortress.
……………………
I am well aware of their threat. I never said that I intend to go to Egypt and take on the Muslim Brotherhood–whatever gave you that idea? I have long said that Muslim-majority polities cannot be civilized. Al-Sisi is likely the best one can hope for–and yet the presecution of Christians still procedes apace under his aegis.
More:
If Welby had made the remarks that they would like to hear, he would not have left Egypt alive. His diplomatic mission would have failed. Members of this forum don’t seem to like diplomacy, but diplomacy often changes things better than a war.
……………………
I merely said that I didn’t like his further endangering Christians by lying about their forcibly converting Muslims. The idea that not lying about Christians would have immediately have led to his death is not bourne out–and if this *were* the case, then it would have been better for him not to have gone to Egypt at all.
More:
We still don’t have a way around Muslim vigilantism. Don Corleone said, ‘You can kill anyone, even the president. You just have to be willing to give up your own life.’
Muslims are experts at using the Heckler’s Veto.
……………………
This is certainly true–in which case lying about Christians forcibly converting Muslims just put them in more danger.
And the Grand Mufti of Egypt has engaged in false moral equivalence himself, claiming that “that terrorism and extremism are not confined to a specific religion”–completely pretending to Infidels that Islam does not preach violence.
Michael Copeland says
“Allah’s true religion should be spread by the sword, by force.”
Sabah Shabr, Shiite Cleric
https://ne-np.facebook.com/memri.org/videos/10154174109479717/
“Our Prophet has taught us that the sword should be raised against kafirs ….for the enforcement of the religion of Islam on this earth.”
Khabeebur Rehman Qazi, Pakistani Cleric
https://www.memri.org/jttm/pakistani-cleric-khabeebur-rehman-qazi-says-allah-has-ordered-muslims-take-weapons-and-has
somehistory says
A boatload of evidence, but these ‘clergy’ can’t read, hear or understand.
E T says
Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, the Secretary General of the Government of Vatican City has a realistic, strong opinion of what the Pope is all about.
somehistory says
Yes, there are a; few who recognize the truth when they hear, read or see it and understand. But the vast majority seem to be what Jesus called, “blind guides, leading the blind, so that they all fall into a pit.”
Jim says
Moral equivalence is of no use in talking to enemies who want to destroy us. The best thing is to meet fire with fire. Show commitment to Christian values and not apologize to the prophets of jihad. Let the Muslim clerics come out with such apologetic rhetoric before the Christian clergy get too obsessed with apologizing to barbarians.
mortimer says
Welby was not grovelling. He was stating Christian doctrine. Jesus told his followers not to use the sword to spread the Christian message.
gravenimage says
Mortimer, implying that Christians in Egypt are violently forcing converstion of non-Muslims is pure calumny.
somehistory says
You seem to forget, Jesus asked His followers if they had a sword, and later, told them to sell something they owned and “buy a sword.”
He was not telling His disciples to wage war to “spread the Word,” but they had need to ***protect*** themselves, they were allowed to use self-defense.
E T says
Yes, that would be nice, no more clergy, politicians, media bashing Christianity. Who ever said politics and religion don’t mix. Stand up for the love of God.
somehistory says
this rather reminds of the mentally, emotionally, unstable and fearful woman who apologizes to her abusive husband who has choked her, beat her, burned her, threatened her, and says how sorry she is for being so mean to him.
she begs him to be her friend and says how they can get along if only she will behave herself. (she needs help to escape)
The twisted thinking of these “clergy” that causes so much trouble for Christians…should be enough for sane people to call them out for their lies.
Beneath the Veil of Consciousness says
Shameful lunatic.
Frederick Middleton says
Welby is an apology not an apologist.
GreekEmpress says
What is this Bishop even talking about? If it’s the Crusades, he should learn some history. The forefathers in the Byzantine Empire sent a plea for help to the west to stop the invasion of the Muslims. But I guess in the twisted logic of today,
protecting home and family is “failing to live up to our faith in our encounters with Islam.”
Wellington says
Confirming again what was said in that wonderful film, Kind Hearts and Coronets (1949), to wit, that the fool in the family would be sent into the church.
gravenimage says
Archbishop of Canterbury decries Christians’ ‘history of sin of force,’ says to Muslims: ‘Let us be people of peace’
From the looks of this article, Welby didn’t say a word about Muslims’ history of “the tragic sin of force,” or about the ongoing Muslim persecution of Christians in Nigeria and elsewhere today
……………
He doesn’t say anything about the terrible persecution of Christians in Egypt, either, which is where he spewed this tripe. No Christians are forcing conversions.
Welby is marginally less appalling regarding Islam than is his predecessor, the egregious Rowan Williams–but this is damning with faint praise.
janwoG says
All these decadent churches will be history at the end of this century. Also official Catholic church has become a facilitator of islamization of Western Europe.
Trevor Morgan says
His predecessor, Sigeric the Serious was as naive. He proposed Danegelt to stop viking attacks.
That ended in conquest!
James Lincoln says
Archbishop Welby’s said:
“And I say to our dear friends from the Islamic community…”
Imagine, if during World War II, the Archbishop then had said:
“And I say to our dear friends from the Nazi community…”
Islam and Nazi-ism are both Far Right totalitarian anti-Semitic ideologies.
somehistory says
James Lincoln,
He should choose his “friends’ more carefully if he wants to be seen as a True Christian. Alas, I don’t believe he will retract any of what he said. No repenting in “dust and ashes” for welby.
somehistory says
From the Master, Jesus Christ to His disciples
John 15 “14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. “
gravenimage says
+1
SAFI says
Muslims: “We are the best of people, you(Christians) are the worst of created beings.”
Christian leaders: “That’s absolutely right! (yes massah)