There is an entire cottage industry of Islamic apologists who claim to know Christianity better than Christians themselves do; their arguments in this line usually consist of quoting various passages from the Mosaic Law and claiming that the Christians are being dishonest or ignorant when they insist that such passages do not apply to Christian belief and practice, and never has.
Recently one of these Islamic apologists, Paul Williams, who professes to be an ex-Christian, published a video claiming that what I stated on the Patrick Bet-David podcast recently is false: that Christians do not consider Deuteronomy 13:6-11 to be a law they are bound to follow, and never have. That passage says this: “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, `Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.”
In making his case, Williams makes arguments that are common among Islamic apologists, claiming that Christians are, in fact, actually bound to keep the Mosaic Law. This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Christianity and an unfamiliarity with both its scriptures (aside from a few proof texts cited with no genuine understanding of the way they’re understood in Christian theology) and its history. Williams is apparently unacquainted with Acts 10 and Acts 15, and should read and ponder them if he really has any interest in understanding the basic Christian position on the Mosaic Law.
Williams also cites Thomas Aquinas’ argument in favor of the execution of heretics, claiming that it was the Catholic Church’s teaching at the time. There are several fundamental problems with this:
1. Aquinas, though he cites numerous scriptural passages in making this argument, does not mention Deuteronomy 13:6-11. Why not? Because contrary to Williams’ claim, even Christians in the High Middle Ages who believed heretics should be executed did not believe that passage to have mandated a practice that was valid for all time. Aquinas clearly did not think that a localized command God issued to the Israelites to execute His wrath upon a particular group of people had any relevance to the question of whether or not heretics should be executed.
2. Aquinas’ position was never the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. The common claim that the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 endorsed the execution of heretics is based on a mistranslation. The 1911 (that is, before the modern-day madness) Catholic Encyclopedia states: “Canon law has always forbidden clerics to shed human blood and therefore capital punishment has always been the work of the officials of the State and not of the Church. Even in the case of heresy, of which so much is made by non-Catholic controversialists, the functions of ecclesiastics were restricted invariably to ascertaining the fact of heresy. The punishment, whether capital or other, was both prescribed and inflicted by civil government.”
3. Williams claims that at the time Aquinas wrote (he died in 1274), the Roman Catholic Church was the only Church. Then, perhaps aware of how false his statement was, quickly amends it to the claim that the Roman Church was the only Church in Europe at the time. He is either unaware of the existence of the Orthodox Church (as well as other Churches, such as the Coptic Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, and many more), or ignorant of the fact that Orthodoxy was quite prevalent in European Russia and Southeastern Europe at the time of Aquinas.
Aside from its numerous inaccuracies, however, the worst part of Williams’ video is the underlying reason why he considered it important to make it: he wants to justify the murder of those who leave Islam today, as his friends Daniel Haqiqatjou and Jake Brancatella did on the Bet-David podcast. While the Roman Catholic Church, as well as other Churches, through long meditation on the implications of the idea that human beings are made in the image of God and have equal dignity before Him, have decisively rejected coercion and force in matters of faith, Williams and his coreligionists want to justify and normalize the idea that people should be forced and even terrorized (as per Qur’an 3:151, 8:12, and 8:60) to remain in Islam. Underneath the calm veneer of intellectual debate, Williams’ agenda is nothing short of monstrous.
James Dean says
Gnoti se autoon
"T" says
They don’t know the OT.
They ” Wrest Scripture unto their
own accord “
FYI says
Williams is someone who apparently likes to ‘blog theology’ so perhaps he can explain to us the problem with allah’s epic misunderstanding of Christian Theology in koran 5:116 where allah mistakenly [and laughably}has MARY in the Christian Theology of the Trinity or how allah completely missed the whole of the Law given to Moses despite claiming he gave the ‘scripture’ to Moses{koran 2:87}.. which contains the whole of the law!:
islamic ‘scholars’ are unable to explain these enormous errors in the koran..not that Theologians will be able to either…
"T" says
Mo was demon possessed
FYI says
Further..regarding allah’s EPIC theology fail of koran 5:116:you can see that the author has no understanding of what Christians believe.The moronic question asked of Jesus..
“Oh Jesus son of Mary!Didst thou unto mankind;take me and my mother for two gods
beside allah”.You can see that he is not sure about it.Just like when allah{or i call him Mr Allah Akbar}overheard some Jews and insists”And the Jews say Ezra is the son of allah”
Mary?Ezra?I thought allah was omniscient.!
allah has to know that is wrong and how moronic is the question asked of Jesus because if he is omniscient he would ALREADY KNOW how stupid that question is.
koran 5:116 is like the wizard of oz moment when the curtain falls
allah the omniscient doesn’t know he has it wrong.
“Allah knoweth all things”
koran 2:29
No you don’t allah.
allah’s ‘omniscience’ is like this.
“i’m allah and i’m god and i know all things…except science,Christian theology etc
Hey wait a minute..where do babies come from again?Ah yes the backbone.truly i know ALL things”
"T" says
Muslims don’t know all things. Their ” allah” is a demon. Likened to the Chinese god of war.
Different culture
somehistory says
An “ex-Christian”…imo, they don’t exist. Either a person is a Christan, or that person is not one. The heart decides, and if the heart is not in it, the person doesn’t really and truly understand and believe. That person never came to *know* God and His Son, Jesus.
As the Apostle Paul wrote about those people, “Having a form of Godly devotion, but proving false to its power.”
These people, such as this lying creep, don’t know God or His Son. They are like their “father the devil,” who twisted and misused Scripture in order to try to cause Jesus to sin against God. (Matthew 4)
Jesus Himself made it clear that Christians are not under the Law. He said for all to hear, and for us today to read, “I came to fulfill the Law.” He is “Lord of the Sabbath.”
The Law was nailed with Jesus when He was put to death for the Redemption of mankind.
Other Bible Scripture add to the evidence…if it is needed for people to fully understand what Jesus meant:
When Peter was told to “eat” those foods which had been unclean for the Jews, and was told that, in God’s eyes, ‘Gentiles’ were the same as the Jews; when Paul wrote that no one has to keep the festivals and other Holy days which had been a part of the Law;
When John wrote in Revelation, for “everyone” to come and “take life’s waters free.”
Christians are not under the Law and never have been…right from the beginning, Christians were given “the Kingly Law of Love.” Jesus said to obey the first two commandments and that would be “keeping the whole law.”
“Love Jehovah your God with your whole heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself.”
There is nothing in those two commands that says one should be killed for leaving a religion.
This creepy scum, trying to make it okay for mozlums to murder, is “doing the desires of his father, satan the devil.” Jesus said that satan “was a murderer when he began,” and did “not stand fast in the Truth because the Truth is not in him.”
Neither is the Truth in this creepy snake.
Hoi Polloi says
Right you are: Luke 9:62 “Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
somehistory says
Than you, HP. And thanks for the Scripture reference.
Vishnujana says
Christian’s made that up that they don’t have to follow Jewish laws. How do you know what gospels are real or not? There were 70. Some bishops chose them. Do you believe in the authority of bishops? Abrahamic religions are full of contradictions and illogical statements. Do you really believe an all-good God would punish all creation if m because of Adam and Eve? No sensible human could believe that. People just believe because their ancestors did.
In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
Mark Twain
Hoi Polloi says
Sorry, but the idea that anyone can personally know the source and the reasoning of most people’s beliefs, billions upon billions of people, as in, “people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination” is a matter of making oneself a god. This is a logical impossibility and an attribution of godlike powers to the self.
somehistory says
So right, Hp
somehistory says
Bologna.
And, if you believe “Mark Twain”…which wasn’t even his real name, over what the Bible said centuries before that fiction writer was born, you are the one making up stuff.
"T" says
Add ” Those who don’t believe Jesus has come in the flesh is of the anti christ “. Which means muslims also.
Hoi Polloi says
TR had about 25 minutes of RS with Daniel Haqiqatjou and Jake Brancatella on the Bet-David podcast and I searched youtube for the rest. Interestingly, I primarily found islamic gloating that RS had bombed.
They don’t comprehend in the least that RS did a great job of letting them show themselves as bloodthirsty. The only Biblical teachings that interest them are those that they can twist to support islamic/tribal kill and be killed commands. They openly admitted that they would kill the convert there for leaving islam. They ignored any issues involving the convert’s revulsion at Islam’s treatment of women.
They also repeatedly lied about Christianity. My favorite failure on their part was their insistence that muslims revere Jesus, which they quickly followed up with sneering that Christians believe Christ to be the Son of God. So they revere a liar and a lunatic? Logic must be suspended to be muslim. They also acknowledged that they believe the return of Christ is solely intended for slaughter of Christians. It was easy to imagine them with blood dripping from their fangs.
FYI says
Logic and islam were separated at birth.The dawah folk should always be considered as being like square tire salesmen and the convert to islam like someone who has bought a set of square tires.
muslims who use critical thinking are likely to become ex-muslims.
Of course islam has a death penalty for such critical thinking which is why i am always impressed by ex-muslims:they are a much more intelligent bunch of people than these islamic apologists.
I mean /imagine if your job was to sell square tires:you HAVE to lie to try to sell the product,hoping they won’t see how bogus a product it is.
Hackapickachu and his ilk are salemen for that business.
Intelligent {and nice people} seem to leave islam.
Ignorant and stupid/naive folk either convert to it or stay in
it is not a cult for people who like critical thinking.
Hoi Polloi says
Truth regarding the difference between those who stay and those who leave.
FYI says
I simply laugh at converts to islam or reverts.
I mean, the fact that allah sends good people to hell {koran 98:6} and does not permit final penitence[koran 4:18}..the OPPOSITE of the Biblical God then-thus showing allah is UNJUST AND UNMERCIFUL.
The fact that allah’s teachings VIOLATE all the laws in the Torah which he claims he gave to Moses{koran 2:87}…and which muslims accept as true!
The ex-christians who fail to see the problem allah’s EPIC theology fail in koran 5:116?What was it:difficulty understanding the Trinity?
allah thinks MARY is in the 3 god ‘trinity’ he misunderstands so epically..
And the ‘theologian’ cannot see the problem with that?allah has it WRONG.
The sage advice is to either stay away from this perverse cult of islam or do something else{i am not suggesting religion necessarily}
somehistory says
They lie so easily about Christ and Christianity and the Bible.
I was watching an episode of Midsomer Murders a few days ago. It was all about demons, witchcraft, women chanting sufi, and other stuff and the dci Barnaby said to the younger detective, “Witchcraft was started by Christians.”
I said, to the program where I would have liked to be heard, ‘No, it wasn’t, you idiot.”
Looking for omens, casting spells, foretelling the future, etc., was condemned in the Hebrew Scriptures (OT) and King Saul went to the witch of Endor in order for her to ask Samuel, who was dead, what he would prophesy.
The Witch of Endor lived and worked her “craft,” long before Jesus was born, and even longer before He began preaching “the good news.”
But, people believe what they want to believe and tell lies to support their wrong belief. This guy has shown himself to be a bloodthirsty liar.
somehistory says
And there in the Book of Acts of the Apostles, the new Christians were said to burn their books on the practice of magic. (chapter 19) They couldn’t/wouldn’t have done that if Christianity was responsible for the practice.
Hoi Polloi says
I love the backdrop on MM but many of us complain that it’s so very anti-Christian; like the BBC on the whole, say Brits. The Great British Baking Show for amateur home baker contestants, installed a muslima cooking school grad winner, and I quit it then. I’ve complained to the BBC, but they’re virulently leftist.
somehistory says
Yes, they often made the villain Christian…or their version of one.
And the main inspectors were both anti-Christian in their comments to their assistants.
Their portrayed attitudes are very much in evidence today in society. Shows like MM make it easier for people to voice their dislike of anything related to Jesus.
Vishnujana says
All the Abrahamic religions have violence in them and have acted on it in their history. Christian’s today aren’t like that because of the enlightenment and renaissance.
somehistory says
You know absolutely nothing about Christianity and Christians.
Hoi Polloi says
Christianity most certainly does not have its roots in mere matters of men, such as the Renaissance or any other such period.
As to “All the Abrahamic religions have violence in them and have acted on it in their history,” Islam claims Abrahamic status but negates that claim with its violence. Christian laws and history address violence as a factual matter but do not invite, command, or incite it. Putting a murderer or child rapist to death is not violence; it is justice. There’s a difference.
Vishnujana says
All Abrahamic religions are violent starting from the very beginning as this quote in the original article points out
Violet says
To me, I see this fool as a product of the western school system that was infiltrated by Marxist ideology in around the 1960’s – 1970’s. In those days the ‘cool’ people studied and/or took on beliefs/religions of anything but Christianity. The school system that has taught or should I say brain washed many white western people to be filled with ‘white guilt’.
This guy is pathetic. He never grew up…thinks this is his way to be interesting…
Maybe we should pray for him to snap out of it…get free from the wickedness.
Nathaniel Winterson says
Very fine riposte by Robert Spencer. Glad to see it and thankful for it.
Jim says
My experience is that people who want to prove that Islam is just as good as Christianity and Judaism try to find texts in the Old Testament where God commands the Israelites to do something similar to jihad, like the Twin Towers attacks. Destroy a whole city. But of course the difference is that modern theologians of either faith do not say that modern Christians and Jews should follow commandments made thousands of years ago about wars that are long since over. Those commandments were superseded by later commandments and interpretations of scripture.
Vishnujana says
Because they are all the same. They pretend they are not but all have violence in their “holy books”
SJ says
As YOUR books do now, and still do!
Hoi Polloi says
No one pretends that the Bible does not “have violence in” it. A physics book that examines the motion of a projectile that can then be used to develop weapons or a medical textbook that describes a criminal injury both meet this meaningless standard. Children’s books, news reports, and horror stories do as well. The list is long. It’s the commanding, incitement, and justification of violence against disfavored individuals and groups that concerns better people.
FYI says
The OT contains the law of Moses which is explained by Jesus Christ as being based on the 2 chief commandments and having a MEANING which is the Golden Rule but these are NOT found in islam despite allah’s insistence he gave the ‘scripture’ to Moses in koran 2:87 and confirming the Torah{koran 3:3}..which contains these Laws!
The Whole of the Law=Matthew 22 v 40{=the Two chief commandments}
The Meaning of the Law=Matthew 7 v12{=the Golden Rule}
So the Law behind the Bible =LOVE GOD,LOVE OTHERS AND DO FOR OTHERS WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO FOR YOU
The OT contains these laws:Jesus Christ explains them
These laws are IMPOSSIBLE in islam
allah permits violations of the Exodus laws {10 commandments}{So chief Law#1 is impossible}
allah insists non-muslims are ‘the WORST of created beings”{So Chief Law #2/Golden rule is impossible
Note that Jesus Christ knows MORE about the law of Moses than allah does.
SJ says
While Jesus was alive, not only was Christianity not yet invented, but Islam was centuries away from even being thought about.
Moham was the jealous psychopath, like his followers are, even today.