Jihadists may not have set the fire, but they’re certainly celebrating it. Many Muslims believe that the ruins and destruction of non-Muslim structures testifies to the truth of Islam, as the Qur’an suggests that the destroyed remnants of ancient non-Muslim civilizations are a sign of Allah’s punishment of those who rejected his truth: “Many were the Ways of Life that have passed away before you: travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who rejected Truth.” (3:137)
“‘ALLAH EST GRAND’: Muslims laugh as blaze destroys Notre Dame cathedral during Holy Week,” by Kyle Olson, American Mirror, April 15, 2019 (thanks to the Geller Report):
A whole lot of people with Arab names are finding the historic Notre Dame ablaze very funny.
Twitter user Damien Rieu posted a video showing the amount of people responding to a video of the Paris church with a “laughing” face emoji.
Watch:
https://twitter.com/DamienRieu/status/1117852138531479552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1117852138531479552&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theamericanmirror.com%2Farabs-laugh-at-burning-notre-dame-cathedral%2F
A sampling of the Facebook users taking delight in the tragedy…see if you notice anything in common:
- Wahid Hadji
- Oubbad Jsk
- Yusuf Mohammedzai
- Hessam Massa
- Mohamed Hiadi
- Mohamed Bensalem
- Alaa Atfeh
- Raidh Khaled
- Ammar Sofiane
- Abdelhakim Noui Oua
- Mohamed Amin
You get the picture.
Witnesses say the fire broke out at the 850-year-old cathedral earlier today.
The roof and spire have collapsed and officials believe “nothing will remain”.
Rieu posted other examples of Muslims cheering the demise of the Christian relic during Holy Week.
“Allah est grand,” Mohamed Mouara commented at the sight…
Ferdinand Brexit, Trump, Deplorable, anti-Marxist (@StFerdinandIII) says
Saint Sulpice set on fire 2 weeks ago by Moslems. 300k Moslems in Paris central. 1000 churches in past year attacked by Moslems. Moslem workers on ND restoration…..
Do the math.
Westman says
The scaffolding to the roof restoration would have been accessible by anyone, so arson is possible. On the other hand, considering the historic value of Notre Dame, it seems incredible that fire extinguishers and hoses were not available right at the points of construction since construction-caused fires are very common,
Carol the 1st says
What a coincidence that this should happen the day after we celebrate Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem!! Stefan Molyneaux has some experience in the safety measures involved with serious construction sites and he is cynical:
Notre Dame Burns!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlaxZtwUpVc
somehistory says
Have to agree with this guy. Thanks for posting the video.
gravenimage says
In the United States alone, there are 4,800 construction site fires every year, which cause approximately $35 million in property loss.
Construction site fires are sadly common–there is a lot of flammable material at even the best maintained construction site. Both my father and one of my brothers work in construction, another brother as an engineer, and they have all dealt with construction site fires, albeit all fairly minor ones.
That being said, I hope this cases is properly investigated, because arson and other tampering are also common at construction sites.
somehistory says
As I posted below, from NBC News:
“The entire roof is fully destroyed,” Picaud said. “The fire started up near the roof top while another fire started in the north bell tower.”
**********************************
This is typical of arson….fires beginning in more than one location at the site This one had at least two.
And the “prosecutor” has already “ruled out arson and terror related motives.” That is typical when they wish to hide the terror from moslims.
The “Paris prosecutor’s office” said it was an accident. Before an investigation has really had time to determine.
sheliak says
Tomorrow’s world news headline: Construction accident fire burns down Saint Peter’s in Rome.
warren nicodemus says
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2017/jun/14/grenfell-tower-blaze-video-explainer
christianblood says
(…Allah est grand”: Muslims laugh, celebrate as blaze destroys Notre Dame cathedral during Holy Week…)
Your hearts should bleed! This is far worse than muslims laughing at some burning church!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f35TUFmCtYY
jayell says
I didn’t realise that creative genius in the West had slipped so badly – 75% – over the last century, but now it’s blatantly obvious and some other pieces of evidence now make sense. I bought a book of reprints of 11+ Examination papers that were regularly attempted by UK school pupils (age 11) in the 1950’s (I was one on them!), and they make the exams given to the current 16-year-olds look pathetic. Something has clearly gone wrong. Likewise, I have a collection of Bing Crosby’s ‘Philco’ radio shows recorded in Hollywood at about the same time; it’s mass-entertainment, but the scripts are sophisticated and witty (no invective), the (live) music is faultless, and the general presentation is elegant and polished. BBC show of the same time were similar. What do audiences get these days? Everything has dumbed down and that goes with the level of civility on the streets as well, as Londoners now know as they see their city descends to a jungle. And now Notre Dame in Paris has gone up in flames; I don’t know if people realise that the destruction of Notre Dame figured in Hitler’s plans if Nazi forces had to withdraw from Paris. If this turns out to be arson, you could say that Hitler’s heirs have now got their way.
♪ᴋɪᴍᴀʀɪᴇꜱɪɴɢꜱ♪ (@KimarieSings) says
Please let’s not start misinforming anyone. There is barely ANY information available yet, just speculation.
@somehistory–I have seen that same quote by Michel Picaud who claimed: “”The fire started up near the roof top while another fire started in the north bell tower.”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/devastating-notre-dame-cathedral-fire-fully-extinguished-after-9-hours/ar-BBVXM4v
HOWEVER–there is NO WAY he could possibly know that for sure, and he seem to be the ONLY person who has made any type of definitive statement. If you consider other sources, they contradict Mr. Picaud’s claim as shown here:
“TV images showed firefighters atop ladders pouring gallons of water onto the blaze but also onto parts of the cathedral that were not ablaze in order to try to prevent it spreading, notably the north bell tower.”
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190415/do-we-know-how-the-notre-dame-fire-started
That report claims that not only was there not fire that STARTED in the North Bell Tower, but that it was one of the few locations that were NOT on fire.
I would really just like if we could collect all of the available information before commencing with the theories and speculation.
J D.S says
I have no idea how many muslim workers were involved in the construction but if any of those workers follow to the letter what’s in their book of hate, the Koran, hadath sira, etc then there alone is plenty of evidence that this could be arson (terrorism) ….Already officials are saying it was an accident before the building, or whatever, is left of it, has cooled down and investigators have inspected and drawer a conclusion…Too many Muslims in Paris .and May be the Pope has directed Paris officials not to say it was arson by muslims
somehistory says
♪ᴋɪᴍᴀʀɪᴇꜱɪɴɢꜱ♪
“Please let’s stop misinforming”
*************************************
I haven’t “misinformed” anyone. You seem to believe that you are some sort of authority on this subject. Perhaps in your haste to call me out for supposedly “misinforming” you are doing so. After all, You shouted several times…that is a sign that you are singing way out of tune…and don’t really know what you pretend to.
When a fire begins in more than one place…and flames were seen in the bell tower…i saw on the news footage as it was happening…firemen turning their hoses on the towers…it is likely arson.
this fire not only smells of smoke and water ruin, but it smells of terrorism and cover-up by the authorities that will have the “final say.’
Go do your off key singing to someone else. I don’t buy your “self proclaimed expertise.”
gravenimage says
I see that christianblood is fine with Muslims laughing at the destruction of the great Cathedral of Notre Dame–which he sneering calls “some burning church”.
Why does christianblood even pretend at this point that he is an Anti-Jihadist?
Wellington says
Gravenimage: Seconded about the pathetic christianblood.
Even though America has to make alliances with despicable Islamic regimes (e.g., Saudi Arabia) for reasons of Realpolitik, when Russia does this with a despicable Islamic regime (e.g. Iran) this is passed over again and again by christianblood because Holy Mother Russia (and I for one am so sick of Holy Mother Russia which missed an enormous opportunity to align with freedom as so many Eastern European nations did after the demise of the almost entirely Russian-controlled USSR) is just wonderful and the West is evil.
Blah, blah, blah. Oh, and let’s not forget, a la christianblood, “God bless Hezbollah.”
What a clown.
gravenimage says
christianblood just keeps getting worse, Wellington.
TheBuffster says
“…since construction-caused fires are very common.”
Which is why people should hold their horses and not draw what seems to them to be obvious conclusions before *all* the evidence is available. At this point it’s way too early to be sure that we know everything we need to know to draw the true conclusion. Ferdinand says “do the math”, but math only gives an accurate answer if all of the factors are known. The rational, intelligent thing to do is to wait. There’s no reason to rush to conclusions.
I don’t know whether it’s true that, as Ferdinand says, “1000 churches in past year attacked by Moslems” or that Moslems were among the workers working on the restoration, but even if those are facts it’s still possible for the fire to have been caused by accident.
If we’re taking jihadwatching seriously, we ought to be squeaky-clean rational and just. If we want to have others take our concerns seriously, we also need to be squeaky-clean rational and just. We should not allow confirmation bias to rule us.
TheBuffster says
Peggy said: “Agree but can we trust the French authorities to be honest with us?”
Of course not.
And because of this, people will speculate and draw conclusions on less than sufficient evidence. If people had good reason to trust their public authorities they wouldn’t be so tempted to do that.
It’s not wrong to speculate or to grade one’s speculations as to what seems most likely, but it’s the confident drawing of conclusions on less than conclusive evidence that worries me. Even good people need reminders under highly emotional circumstances.
And the authorities (and everyone else) do have reason to be concerned that if Notre Dame has been burned down by a Muslim that there may be riots and attacks against Muslims, and that would be a bad thing.
Keys says
Peggy –
A. My experience has been to not trust any politicians, not even the
French kind.
B. My experience would led me to bet money that “some people did
something” in the case of this fire.
C. Because of A., do not do B.
smoris says
The rush to judgment seems to have been on the part of the officials and the government – not “jihad watchers”. Something as huge as this fire would not be possible to assess within a few hours, and that while the blaze is still ongoing. That this was already pronounced an “accident” or related to construction before the cinders have cooled and the flames are out is absurd. And why should a building of the importance of Notre Dame not been secured? This is ridiculous and insulting.
cfrread says
Yeah defending those Moslems. No patterns to see ? Churches attacked every day in France. Christian holy week.
2 Fires started on the roof immediately…immediately after closing time. 2.
So let’s be a good Atheopath/Ir-rationalist and do some probability calcs of that happening.
Very unlikely.
However, instantly, the Frog authorities ruled out Moslem Jihad. Why?
And all those pious ‘balanced’ posters here, articulating their ‘fair’ bona fides.
None of whom give a shite that Churches are attacked daily in France. Why wouldn’t ND be attacked, sitting in the middle of a Moslem enclave?
Pragmatist says
Over three serious attacks PER DAY on churches in France in 2018 – check out Gatestone Institute article – news of which was suppressed, as far as possible, by the authorities. In the rare cases where the news was exposed, and the culprit’s ethnicity revealed, the official line was the old ‘mental illness’ trope. This has been happening in many places – Germany has many serious incidents recorded.
♪ᴋɪᴍᴀʀɪᴇꜱɪɴɢꜱ♪ (@KimarieSings) says
I have not seen any news sources claiming the origin of the fires, never mind that there were 2 “started on the roof immediately…immediately after closing time.”
Do you have a link you can post to the source where you read that information so that we can access it for ourselves? That would be very helpful.
If you really are concerned with “fake news” I implore you to consider what you are posting if you have no reputable links that support them.
gravenimage says
cfrread wrote:
And all those pious ‘balanced’ posters here, articulating their ‘fair’ bona fides.
None of whom give a shite that Churches are attacked daily in France.
……………………….
The idea that if anyone thinks this may not be Jihad given what we know so far that they care nothing about Muslim attacks on Churches in France is utter calumny.
Terry Gain says
If the French authorities have already denied that there was arson, this would both be suspicious and expected.
Lydia Church says
Yeah, we sort of can infer the cause.
And for those laughing infidels…(the muslims)
the one true God, the God of the Christian Bible…
will one day destroy all things muslim, all mosques, korans, anything islamic…
to show his punishment and judgment on all those who reject His truth:
Christianity, and on those who instead receive the lies of the devil… such as islam!
They will see themselves outside of God’s heavenly kingdom while we are inside.
So it is we who will have the last laugh!
This time on earth is just for people to show what they truly are, even as Christians.
That is why sometimes God allows things to just follow their course.
Then one day God can play back the video to them when they have questions about their
surprise ending.
To those in France and anywhere who are mourning, I say fret not!
That building has been destroyed and rebuilt before. I heard on the news that they had just removed some articles of art a few days ago because they are renovating and some of the best items were not destroyed. On top of that, it is just a building and material things. I understand that the French feel hit below the gut because they have identity attachments and many emotions regarding this. But don’t let the infidels win. They will never win unless you give in.
: )
Laura says
‘Don’t let them win?’ But they are winning, they strike at will and we never fight back, because we are not allowed to.
andra says
Well, I guess that at some point some people won´t ask anymore for permission.
Lauren Hermann says
Laura, you are so right! When will the masses wake up? It disgusts me.
Reziac says
The authorities already surrendered when they decided to declare the cause ‘accidental’ before the fire is even out. That’s tantamount to begging, “Please, sir, may we have another?” and that’s exactly what they’ll get.
Also, word from a Frenchman on Another Forum was that le authorities required half the workforce be migrants. Gee, where’s the opportunity in that??
Seeking Deliverance says
A muslim terrorist was sentenced to incarceration three days prior to this fire breaking out in the scaffolding of Notre Dame Cathedral. Couple this fact with the amount of Muslims attacking Christians and Churches and Jews and Temples across the globe JUST over the past twenty years. Saudia Arabia built a mosque in Los Angeles in 1998 and within three years… the nearby Churches were all vandalized/attacked by Muslims worshipping in that very same nearby Saudi mosque. Furthermore, this Saudi mosque was involved in funding terrorist groups around the globe to include two of the 9/11 hijackers. So yes… DO THE MATH! Someone has to… because our western world leaders are not doing their job. Even the Pope himself has succumbed and capitulated to Islam.
kimariesings says
I have seen many claims to facts here and not ONE link to an actual news source. Do you have a link referring to the Muslim terrorist you are referring to and his arrest? I am sure many of us would like to see it for ourselves.
elee says
Kim Marie, I urge you to challenge your belief in “actual” or “reputable” “news sources.” I suggest this: go to one of the sites that crank out defamatory statements about the news media excerpts that appear here—-not just the computer rubber stamp graphics they cyberstamp at the top and bottom of their postings. Read the actual texts, read what passes for reasoning. I suspect if you examine these you’ll find technicalities, sophisms, misrepresentations, overgeneralisations…..in general, pardon my French, an ocean of piss-thin drivel. IMHO, I’m asking you to form your own opinion. Or if you want to know about Islam you could just read some Muslim sites…….which is how I come to assert: ISIS has never lied to me.
gravenimage says
kimariesings wrote:
I have seen many claims to facts here and not ONE link to an actual news source. Do you have a link referring to the Muslim terrorist you are referring to and his arrest?
………………………….
kimariesings, here is the story, covered here at Jihad Watch yesterday:
“France: Muslim girl “in search of love” plotted to blow up car packed with gas canisters near Notre Dame cathedral”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/04/france-muslim-girl-in-search-of-love-plotted-to-blow-up-car-packed-with-gas-canisters-near-notre-dame-cathedral
That she was sentenced for a Jihad plot does not, actually, mean that she was responsible for the fire at Notre Dame yesterday. The plot actually dates to 2016.
And despite what elee implies that no reputable news sources are actually reputable sources of news, this story was reported by Agence France Presse.
The fact is that Jihad Watch regularly relies on mainstream news sources.
Anne Wilson says
I think a lot of people are saying that we don’t know the cause of the fire. As many have said, the news announced it was caused by renovation error as it had just started. Picture a house fire and the news telling us as it starts that it was caused by a cigarette. It’s stupid as the fire experts need to investigate. Stop being sheep and following nonsense that you here until the investigation is complete. They will have to be forthright on this as it’s not just your neighborhood church. It’s a church very important to all Catholics throughout the World. If it was terrorism we will know and if not we will know. This is way too important to be hidden under the rug. My heart goes out to all Christians in this holy week.
Lucien says
These morons forget that the Kaaba, which they believe being the house of God, was destroyed more than 4 times during the course of history. How do they answer to that?
Hari Singh says
The Muslims are idolaters-they worship (bow,kiss,circumambulating, and dress in costly fabrics) and commit “ shirk” . Not only is Allah eternal as is the “original” eternal Koran is in heaven, the Muslim heaven has two eternal gods, Allah and the Koran ,that is shirk-polytheism.
Perhaps the Blessed Virgin Mary is unhappy at all the Muslims in Catholic France,after all the Blessed Virgin Mary was the patron of the Christian fleet at the battle of Lepanto, that turned back the Muslim OttomannTurkish fleet.
Hari Singh says
Corrected submission The Muslims are idolaters-they worship the Kaaba (bow,kiss,circumambulating, and dress in costly fabrics) and commit “ shirk” . Not only is Allah eternal as is the “original” eternal Koran is in heaven, the Muslim heaven has two eternal gods, Allah and the Koran ,that is shirk-polytheism.
Perhaps the Blessed Virgin Mary is unhappy at all the Muslims in Catholic France,after all the Blessed Virgin Mary was the patron of the Christian fleet at the battle of Lepanto, that turned back the Muslim OttomannTurkish fleet.
eduardo odraude says
They didn’t just turn back the Ottoman fleet. I believe they largely destroyed it, did they not?
Isabellathecrusader says
Eduardo, yes, you are correct, the Holy Alliance under Don Juan of Austria destroyed the Muslim fleet at Lepanto. I think Hari meant that the Muslims did not achieve their goal of Europe domination, that time.
elee says
Highly commending G.K. Chesterton’s short epic poem about Lepanto. Not politically correct. Saving decency and civilisation isn’t “value neutral.” Intrinsically and inherently.
gravenimage says
Here’s the poem, elee:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47917/lepanto
Unknown says
Should get nuked at night. At least no one would be there to get hurt but would be destroyed with no chance of being reconstructed.
gravenimage says
What should be nuked at night?
julea bacall says
When will our governments protect us? its so late.
James says
Is it certain Muslims are not responsible ?
https://gellerreport.com/2019/04/muslims-laugh-notre-dame-inferno.html/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
mortimer says
Even if Muslims are not responsible, they are the first suspects. France is a country under internal siege.
The French could lose MUCH MORE than this if their SIX MILLION Muslims decide to attack France from within. I predict there will be many very grievous jihad attacks in the summer of 2019.
After the defeat of ISIS and Al Qaeda and Boko Haram, the die-hards will take on European targets.
They should hire more police.
Churches will all need to have more surveillance cameras and security present for all services.
TheBuffster says
Mortimer, I agree with your post.
Matamoros says
Coming from the wife of a police officer, can Mortimer tell me, specifically, why anyone should even become one of the French police?
From what I understand, the majority of their police force aren’t even allowed to bear arms to defend *themselves,* let alone other people from any kind of attack.
France is mostly lost. And I feel so sorry for those who are still protecting it, as it’s been fairly public that they are in a, “policing crisis.”
andra says
On top the suicide rate within the French poilice is raising day by day.
observer says
I fear you are very probably right Mortimer.
And all the returning jihadis…
Mick says
Early reports say an acident by cleaners i wonder were the cleaners believers of Islam ?
lebel says
The cleaners were Muslims but the media is hiding the truth. Its called the squeejihad.
*Note for GI:
1. Yes, the fact that I do not bemoan this tragedy is clear evidence that I rejoice in the destruction of this Church
2. Yes, any bemoaning would be taqqiya and clear evidence that I rejoice in the destruction of this Church
Terry Gain says
Libel
Why are you unwilling to condemn your co-religionists who are celebrating the destruction of this Cathedral.
elee says
lebel, you fill me with such interfaith multicultural love that I dearly wish I could give lots of Muslims what they most aspire to. I could send them straight to 72 virgins for eternity and boys like scattered pearls. Guess I’ll have to wait till your buddy gathers his mighty army of Islam. Bring ’em on. Hurry, I won’t live forever.
observer says
Hello lebel
I hand you over to the Triune God. May He grant you light and life.
Mirren10 says
Well, lebel, do you have anything to say about all those mohammedan laughing emoji’s ?
No, thought not. You are such a despicable *twat*.
gravenimage says
lebel has said before that Jihad Watchers are–somehow–preventing him from saying anything critical about Muslim savagery.
Heidi says
Mick, according to this report there should not have been any workmen in the cathedral. If the fire was started by a cleaning crew I have to ask myself what were they doing in the attick. Even a German cathedral builder said that there had to be another source of the fire. This is what Miss Hartkopf said among other things “I do not mean that it could have been arson. But you have to assume that there was another source of ignition. This is not how a fire arises in a wooden roof truss.”
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190415/do-we-know-how-the-notre-dame-fire-started
Brian hoff says
The wood use as beam and the frame of the church is older than the church itself it the wood was dry rot it would burn every easy and very fast and hot. The stonework is in decay and falling apart. Some of the stone statue on the wall where fallen down by itself. They wherenot send enought money to restore it than full restore the church would have cost 200 000 000 ecu. The cost too rebuilt it can be as hight as 20 000 000 000 ecu as they donot have craftman as skilled as in the past or the old builting style. They would have to have engineer look at remain part of the building. They mighr need to tear down the church and rebuilt from start than whole new church.
gravenimage says
I see that “Brian hoff”–really, “DefenderofIslam”–is here to sneer at the Infidels. *Ugh*.
medforth says
Germany: Catholic Church vandalized+++
Yesterday, Sunday, between 2 p.m. and 6 p.m., unknown persons visited the Catholic Church at Wilhelms square in Dillenburg (Photo). They damaged a holy water bowl, candles and scattered several info sheets on the floor. Repairing the damage will cost around 200 euros. The police are looking for witnesses who could observe the perpetrators in or around the church or who could otherwise provide information about their identity. The Dillenburger police requests information by calling (02771) 9070.
Read more:
https://searchlight-germany.blogspot.com/2019/04/germany-catholic-church-vandalized.html
owensgate says
They (the French) will never find the “motive” for this, I assume, islamic jihad attack.
mortimer says
The ‘motive’ of jihad is AL WALAA WAL BARAA.
We all should MASTER this ‘ESSENTIAL TEACHING’ of Islam … if you do not, you do not understand Islam.
gravenimage says
At this point it looks as though the fire was an accident related to construction work. But of course Muslims are thrilled about it.
Mockingjay says
Yeah. Construction workers. Wonder if there could have been workers among them who are called Mohammad?
To deny them the job or doing background checks of course would have been racist and islamophobic, and we’d rather sacrifice the grandest cathedral of France then being accused of harboring suspiscions towards muslims.
StacyGirl says
And the possible Muslim firefighters took 2 hr to arrive. ???
Mockingjay says
– Just confirmed by a french man who says to have worked on this project:
There were not a few, but MANY muslim (“Maghrebi’s”) workers present at the Notre Dame. And the ”cooperation”, according to him, wasn’t exactly “harmonious”.
This fire was set intentionally. No doubts. WHATSOEVER.
Sylvia says
According to sources French President Emanuel Macron insisted that Middle-Eastern Migrants be a large part of the current Notre Dame Cathedral Restoration Project. Was the fire intentionally set??….developing
Carol the 1st says
And it looks like the hero Macron hopes to emerge from the ashes! Isn’t life just full of irony.
gravenimage says
Actually, Stacy Girl, the brave firefighters were able to save much of the church and its contents. I am not going to sneer at their bravery.
Gary Powell says
Could this be a revenge job for the NZ attack? Houston! We got a problem…..
hugheaston says
From the mosque shooter’s manifesto:
Were/are you a conservative?
No, conservatism is corporatism in disguise, I want no part of it.
Were/are you a christian?
That is complicated. When I know, I will tell you.
Were/are you a fascist?
Yes. For once, the person that will be called a fascist, is an actual fascist. I am sure the journalists will love that. I mostly agree with Sir Oswald Mosley’s views and consider myself an Eco-fascist by nature. The nation with the closest political and social values to my own is the People’s Republic of China.
Was there a political figure or party in history you most associate yourself with?
Sir Oswald Mosley is the person from history closest to my own beliefs.
…
Were/are you a socialist?
Depending on the definition. Worker ownership of the means of production? It depends on who those workers are, their intents, who currently owns the means of production, their intents and who currently owns the state, and its intents.
Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump?
As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no.
Despite giving a vague non-answer (like he did for several other answers I haven’t shown), it’s doubtful whether he’s a practicing Christian. Christianity, unlike Islam, doesn’t advocate pre- emptively massacring non-Christians. Also, Fascism and socialism are atheist ideologies. In fact, judging by his words and actions, I think the best way of summing up the mosque shooter is to say that he’s a legitimately mentally ill lone wolf!
Why would an attack by a mentally ill Australian atheist in New Zealand provoke attacks on a Christian cultural icon in France?
Besides, the reason moslems attack churches and synagogues (and Buddhist/Hindu etc temples) has nothing to do with attacks against them. It’s because they consider observance of religions other than Islam as an affront to Allah, so they attack both the worshippers and the places of worship of all other religions. No matter how much you try to appease moslems, it won’t make a blind bit of difference to them. It’s written in their holy book that we are their enemy, and since the Koran isn’t going to change, we will always be their enemy, and they will continue to attack and kill us at every opportunity, until we’ve all either converted or been killed. Or we turn around and drive them out of our countries. The choices are that simple.
gravenimage says
The unhinged NZ shooter was a nasty piece of work.
medforth says
Germany: Historic church vandalized+++
Already last week there was damage to property at the church in Burg (photo). The police are now looking for witnesses who can give information about the perpetrator. In the period from Monday, the 8th of April 2019, midday until Friday, the 12th of April 2019, 10.00 p.m., an unknown person threw a stone into a window of the church in the street Am Markt. The resulting damage to property should amount to 200 euros. So far there are no indications of the perpetrator. Witnesses should therefore call the police in Burg on 04825/23 10.
Read more:
https://searchlight-germany.blogspot.com/2019/04/germany-historic-church-vandalized.html
gravenimage says
Yes–these are not *all* accidents.
Carol the 1st says
Today’s article by The Guardian should interest everyone:
Notre Dame Cathedral fire – a visual guide and timeline
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/16/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-a-visual-guide-and-timeline
somehistory says
Carol the 1st
Thanks for the link. It does have some interesting info.
J_not_a says
I just knew Id be hearing about these scum celebrating. Reports of them dancing and handing out candy will bound to be heard, bet on it
gravenimage says
As did I, J_not_a.
Susan Bolle says
This is like 911 to them. They were not successful in destroying the crown of thorns, however. Violence to French churches and priests over the past 2 years, Holy Week, scaffolding, building just closed….suspicious.
Carol the 1st says
Why do we hear NO mention at all of SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS? Surely they would be on and around the grounds of such a monument to – especially when the area is increasingly encased by those of of a predatory “faith” that is innately, “died-in-the-wool” hostile to what is non-Islamic?
Daughter of Mary says
Yes,by a very brave priest and he manged to save the Blessed Sacrament, the Host of Christ Himself,thanks be to God.Plus, no one was hurt AND the Cross survived, so,it’s a thin victory for the anti-Christians.They wouldn’t allow Catholic Churches in Britain or Ireland for centuries but yet Christ’s Church survived in the hearts and minds of His children.DUES VULT!
gravenimage says
Yes–that no one was seriously injured is a tribute to the first responders.
CogitoErgoSum says
….. and yet Christ lives. His Church is more than stone and wood and glass.
gravenimage says
+1
abad says
That is something no Moslem can comprehend due to their carnal religion.
Even though a part of me died when I heard the news, all that is lost is a building. A magnificent building, to be sure, a landmark, no doubt, one that took 200 years to build from start to finish.
But the Christian Church is a living, breathing entity, according to the Bible.
Christians need not attend a physical church nor be a member of one; what comes first and foremost is the Christian’s relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. And that spans well across Christian denominations – yes, even Roman Catholics.
Not surprisingly, Moslems cannot grasp that last part, because:
Islam has no such relationship between believer and Allah; all it has is submission.
Something to think about.
Mitchell Stone says
‘Roman Catholic’ is a slur term . We are Catholics. The Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is actually historically the nomination.
Wellington says
???
Joss says
Of course. Think of the Apostles’ Creed – “I believe in the Holy Catholic Church…”As Christians we are all members/a part of, that Holy Catholic Church, and Islam, with all it’s evil and violence can never defeat it. Islam is fighting a losing battle against Almight God, not the false god Allah!!
gravenimage says
The mention of the Catholic Church is, unsurprisingly, only in the Catholic translation of the Apostle’s Creed.
And Wellington, Mitchell is saying that only Catholics are real Christians.
Many non-Catholics–and non-Christians–stand with Catholics about Notre Dame.
With all respect, I don’t think this is the time for division.
FYI says
“God, who made the world and everything in it,is Lord of Heaven and Earth and does not live in man-made temples”
Acts 17 v 24
It is quite symbolic of what is happening in France.
It is no surprise that some of the children of allah{“the BEST of deceivers”k3:54},the demonic,pagan,savage,murderous and evil Arab god of islam would rejoice.
islam is the religion of antiChrist: a false god of hate,a false pedo “prophet” and a false scripture,the unholy commandment-of God violating plagiarized trash of the koran of EVIL.
The falsely pious,Godless savages of islam worship a pagan demon-god:al-ilah the Great Deceiver
allah the demon god of islam must NEVER be confused with the actual Biblical God!
allah..
THAT is the god the islamic hypocrites “pray” to when they “pray” in their Temples of Hubaal.
THAT is the god of the islamic call to “prayer”
Proof that islam and its god are EVIL and of antiChrist:
“The man most hated to {allah} will be a man called MALIK AL AMLAK,for there is no king but allah”
Sahih muslim vol 5 hadith # 5611
MALIK AL AMLAK{“The King of kings” ….a title given ONLY to one person:Revs 19 v 16}
If Jesus represents good and allah is his enemy then allah and his cult are EVIL.
allah et son “prophet” muhammed sont merde.
Terry Gain says
….. and yet Christ lives. His Church is more than stone and wood and glass.
……….
And yet, His Vicar is a turncoat.
FYI says
He is a turncoat,a judas pope,but only for a short while..
This is permitted by God in order to separate the faithful{wheat} from the unfaithful{chaff}.
I mean,can you imagine how outraged Jesus would be by this “pope”?
Mr Bergoglio is allowed to do his sinister work but only for a short time..
It was a cunning trick to call himself francis to give the impression that he was going to be like St Francis of Assisi when in fact he has shown himself to be the opposite:he is a panderer to islam,promoter of Apostasy and Heresy within Catholicism,denier of the Gospel and preacher of falsehood.
The recent picture of the Fraud Frankie on his knees kissing the feet of Sudanese politicians was disgraceful and unbecoming of any pontiff:He pretends to be all about Humility but no one does more to undermine Catholicism and Christianity than Mr Bergoglio.In fact,his attempt to equate islam’s allah with the Christian God is heresy and subverts Christianity.
I wouldn’t worry about the vatican:in terms of what is revealed in Catholic prophecy{Fatima 1917,la Salette,St Francis prophecy of a false pope “the Destroyer”..}it’ll be #1 on God’s hit list for scattering the flock.It all began at Vatican 2 and what Pope Paul VI was talking about,”the smoke of satan” is clearly manifested in the errors coming from this “pope”.
Wellington says
I think it arguable, FYI, that Pope Francis is the most destructive pontifex maximus in history. Oh yes, you have execrable Popes like Benedict IX, Urban VI and more than a few Renaissance Popes (e.g., Alexander VI) who are “contenders,” but none had the attention of the world stage as Francis does nor did any of these worst of Popes, whatever other sins they were guilty of, have a contempt for Western Civilization or any admiration for Mohammedanism, two “proclivities” that Francis certainly stands guilty of.
If Roman Catholicism is the true faith, then God does indeed act in very mysterious and inscrutable ways to allow a man like Bergoglio become the head of the ecclesiastical organization that Jesus entrusted to Peter and his successors per Matthew 16:19.
FYI says
@wellington
Absolutely true about pope francis.Surely he is the worst pope in the history of catholicism.
It all began with vatican 2…..
Christopher Polly says
As a Catholic, I feel nothing but disgust and humiliation because of him. He is a traitor to God. He acts as if we do not read our bibles. He acts very much like the narcissistic behavior of all the liberals and communists that are trying to destroy Christianity.
Anyone that can’t see the evil, will be led to slaughter by this Pope. He will destroy the church in the name of liberalism. One can not side with the enemies of God and expect no repercussions.
I for one believe Notre Dame was arson. Without a doubt in my mind, I know it was by Muslims. I know the French government will hide the truth. And I know the fool in the Papacy will never tell us the truth. He rather kneel with a satanic mullah than be a leader of Our church.
CogitoErgoSum says
Did Christ Himself not choose Judas to be one of the Twelve Apostles? And yet Christ lives.
Kay says
Yes, I was heartened to hear that Parisians were singing Ave Maria in the streets and that the relic of the crown of thorns was saved.
gravenimage says
Hear, hear!
Guy Jones says
Whether or not terrorism is responsible for this incident, I submit that you’d be hard-pressed to find a better visual metaphor than Notre Dame burning, to symbolize Europe’s current cowed, perpetual dhimmitude towards Islam, and, the total crushing of secular democracy and the values of the Enlightenment, under the bootheel of totalitarian and supremacist Islam.
Joe says
Yeah, the only thing left is for Francis and the Church to sell the site to lefties, and they build a Mosque on it to ridicule the Christians.
eduardo odraude says
Guy Jones,
Yes. This is a case where the persistent murmurings of Europe’s death suddenly seem concretized and made visible in a monstrous historical spectacle, the visible destruction of part of the physical, artistic, and spiritual heart of Europe. Notre Dame was no ordinary cathedral. It is part of Europe’s essence, and it has just burned down. One can often ignore or be indifferent to abstract statistics about the affects of Islam on Europe, but the site of Notre Dame engulfed in flame really brings it all home, becomes an incredibly powerful symbol or emblem of what is going on in Europe.
dumbledoresarmy says
It is *not* “burned down”. Far from it! The core structure – which is stone – held. The ancient medieval stone vaulting held, even when the wooden roof burned and the spire (which was a much later addition – 19th century) crashed down through it.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-16/notre-dame-medieval-design-innovation-saved-gothic-cathedral/11020228
“…the cathedral’s structure was “saved from total destruction”.
According to architectural historians, the cathedral’s medieval stone vaults — which served as a buffer for the fire after it burned through the wooden roof — had a hand in this…”. END QUOTE
(Click on the link – read the whole article – be encouraged).
The bell-towers are intact; I would not be surprised if, on Easter Sunday, the bells of Notre Dame – or perhaps just one, rung very carefully – ring out over the city. And: it will be rebuilt, restored, re-beautified. Furthermore: there are stories of crowds of non-Muslim Parisians gathering, singing, praying, in the streets. Perhaps in response to this great shock the Church in France will rise like the Phoenix (where wil the Easter liturgy – Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday, the great Triduum, be held, that would have been held within Notre Dame, this year? – it will, I would guess, be held.. nearby, out of doors.. and I would not be the least bit surprised if it were hugely attended).
Notre Dame herself, Our Lady of Paris, will rise like the phoenix. Let us remember that, like the House of Israel, Christendom lives under the sign of the “burning bush” – that burns with the fire of God, but is not consumed. Medieval poets imagined Our Lady herself as “the burning bush”, because during her pregnancy she carried the Incarnate Word.
Donations are already pouring in for the reconstruction fund. The money to clean, repair rebild, restore, will be coming not only from prominent persons and businesses, but from thousands – millions – of ordinary French people and *also* from many, many many people – Japanese, Australian, American, Canadian, you-name-it – who have been to France, and encountered the beauty of the infinite, as declared by the lovingly hand-made beauties of Notre Dame.
eduardo odraude says
Thanks for those encouraging words.
Carol the 1st says
Nice piece.
gravenimage says
*Very* true, Dumbledore’s Army!
Renate says
Funny, but I don’t remember Christians celebrating when 717 people were crushed and hundreds were injured at the Hajj just a couple of weeks after a construction crane toppled at the Grand Mosque, (Islam’s holiest site) and killed 109 people in Mecca in 2015. What did Muslims think of Allah when that happened?
gravenimage says
So true, Renate.
Carol the 1st says
That crane collapse happened on September 11. Since April 14 Palm Sunday 2019 was undoubtedly quite well attended somehow It’s not very surprising this happened the following day.
Paulo Bento says
Is it just a coincidence that Ines Madani was condemned today?
overman says
lt’s too much of a coincidence for it not to be a jihad attack.
gravenimage says
So far it looks as though this is not a Jihad attack.
Terry Gain says
It’s much too soon to draw any conclusions. And. It would not surprise me if the authorities lie because of a fear of a backlash just like Bush lied after 9/11 about Islam being a religion of peace.
alex says
The blacked-out portions of the official reports on Saudi involvement in the 9/11 terrorist attacks should be exposed. If it turns out that high-level Saudi officials and princes facilitated and supported the attacks to a considerable degree, then the families of 9/11 victims, and the U.S, in general, should sue the living crap out of them. I hope that President Trump’s administration does exactly that. As for the Notre Dame fire, we will be told that the Muslims who are cheering, do not represent most Muslims. All right, that *may* be possible. However, when there was the mosque massacre of Muslims in New Zealand a few weeks back, and some racist trolls were cheering that despicable attack online, there were plenty of Muslims who were blaming all Australians, Westerners and Christians for it, despite it being the crime of a rare white supremacist wingnut. Christians are something like 143 times more likely to be murdered for their faith in the Muslim world, than a Muslim is to be killed for his/her religion in the Western world.
Rufolino says
The French Authorities will already have decided that the Notre Dame fire must have been an accident.
To admit that it might have been arson, or that it was committed by Islamic malice, would be far too explosive for the public in today’s France.
Reziac says
Someone who credibly claimed to have inside knowledge made this statement: The reason the U.S. hasn’t had more terrorist attacks on this scale is because the morning after 9/11, Bush called the Saudis and said: “We know you were behind the attacks. If it happens again, we’ll nuke Mecca.”
And they believed him.
Ashley says
Muslims are having a VERY good day, indeed!
The Boston Marathon happened six years ago today…Monday, April 15, 2003.
Carol the 1st says
As all here know, Christian Holidays are the absolute favorite for Allah’s minions fulfilling his dirty work.
Carol the 1st says
In 2015 Palm Sunday fell on March 29 – but the principal remains valid.
Ashley says
If (big IF) this was just an unfortunate accident imagine being the guy who burned down the Notre Dame Cathedral.
Ouch!
Anjuli Pandavar says
The last time France had a funny little king and a major Parisian landmark caught fire, social discontent that had been close to boiling point for a long time, finally erupted, and set in train a series of events that freed Europe from an ancient curse.
JMB says
Please explain.
gravenimage says
I think that Anjuli is talking about the French Revolution–hardly entirely a good thing, though.
Ashley says
Oh…but it is okay to “speculate” the fire was sparked during construction work.
https://dailycaller.com/2019/04/15/shep-smith-france-notre-dame-cathedral-fire/
JMB says
Yes, but because if this is a terror attack it would have the same grave consequences as a terror attack on the Grand Mosque in Mecca or an attack on the Dome on The Rock in Jerusalem. Those grave consequences could of course be World War 3. Perhaps this is why the media has been told to be cautious about any speculation.
lebel says
Muslims did this but the media is hiding the truth.
Fires did not happen before the influx of Muslims into the west.
+Note for GI: yes the fact that I do not display any concern for the church itself is a clear sign that I support its destruction. +
gravenimage says
lebel has now sneered several times about his not saying anything critical about Muslims gloating over this tragedy.
Carol the 1st says
Do you ever feel like a “nethernik” lebel? I think that designation might help account for your strange posting blanks. I myself have fashionably chosen to be “trans-aged”, feels really good!
Reziac says
WW3 is already in progress in Europe. The shooting might not start for another 50 years, but it’s long past the point of no return.
gravenimage says
Muslims are brutalizing and murdering Europeans *now*.
Tricia Stuercke says
I’ve read & studied The Holy Bible. I’ve read much of The Koran. I’ve been “called” throughout my 12 bedridden years (of 24 total years battling Lupus & a rare Cancer-like Bone Disease Trio) to deeply study Biblical Prophecy…you’d be amazed what you can learn in 12 bedridden yrs! Muslims ARE Satan’s Militants, & yes, they will laugh & feel victorious over everything they cause, or did not cause, thinking their overall dominance is imminent… but, again, I’ve read Holy Scripture… JESUS WINS. ?
somehistory says
Tricia Stuercke
I agree with you. He was “winning” even when He was dying. He is winning now and will keep on winning until all evil has been defeated and destroyed and on into forever. Like you, I have studied the Bible and like you, I have Lupus and a mgus…which after many years with it, has not developed into cancer. I’m sorry your illness has caused you to be bedridden, but you have put your time to the best of uses.
We are about to see marvelous and miraculous things.
FYI says
@Tricia Stuercke,somehistory
There can be a use for illness:Redemptive suffering that purifies the soul…
This Wisdom is explained in 1 Corinthians 1 v 18-31
Romans 12 v 1-2
Romans 8 v 18-19
John 16 v 33
somehistory says
FYI
Thank you for the encouragement.
Paul said, “When I am weak, then I am powerful (2 Corinthians 12:10).” Whatever strength I have comes from my God and He sustains me. Like David wrote, “upon a divan of illness.” (Ps. 41:3)
gravenimage says
Tricia and Somehistory, I am sorry to hear about your illnesses–but glad to hear that they have not beaten either of you.
somehistory says
Thank you, g.
Wellington says
I would like to second what gravenimage conveyed to Tricia Stuercke and somehistory.
somehistory says
Thank you, Wellington.
Spiro says
Jesus is
And
Will always win
abad says
+1
Kay says
Thank you Tricia
Lydia Church says
Good for you!
Yes, Jesus wins. When they thought the most that they had defeated Him, was exactly the moment that He won. By the cross He defeated: sin’s power over us and past guilt by the atonement, death, the curse on the earth, the devil, and He opened the gates of heaven to all who will receive Him!
That spells: Victory!!! And He rose again proving He was successful.
For us too, we have a ‘win-win’ situation.
If we live peaceful lives as Christians, we win.
If we die as martyrs, we gain the glorious martyr’s crown and… we win!!!
We can’t lose unless we renounce Jesus and voluntarily give it all up.
The victory in the future belongs to Jesus at His return, and to us!
: D
Our God is greatest!!!
somehistory says
As soon as the ground has cooled enough, investigators should go in and Look for evidence of arson, for multiple sites of origin, for signs of the use of accelerants, for any signs of fire starters such as cell phones or other kinds, etc. If it was arson, there will be evidence. If they want to find the… truth, they will look carefully. One might just be surprised what all survives the blaze to point a finger at the guilty.
It’s no surprise that moslims are laughing and celebrating and giving credit to satan. The demon is behind all of the evil on earth.
eduardo odraude says
Readers of the news should watch to see if the government decides not to investigate the cause or decides to do so in the most cursory fashion. If this was arson, a cursory investigation would be the safest way to avoid revealing that. Also, to mount a more than cursory “investigation” might suggest government suspicion of foul play, and the French government might be loathe to give that suggestion to the French public. French politicians under whose watch this happened — Macron on down — might hemorrhage votes at the polls, and may also fear how the event could foment civil war or just a further breakdown of the French social order if investigation determined this was jihad.
JMB says
Not even a hint of terror involvement from the mainstream news sources but it will not surprise me if we soon see a “poster boy” picture of a Muslim fireman fighting the blaze.
somehistory says
JMB
I did hear a news anchor mention the prior terror attacks in Paris, suggesting this burning could be terror also. I could not see the specific channel number, but I believe his first name was David, and he spoke with a guy in Paris by the name of Max.
Crusades Were Right says
“Diversity” isn’t OUR greatest strength…
…it’s THEIRS!
gravenimage says
“Allah est grand”: Muslims laugh, celebrate as blaze destroys Notre Dame cathedral during Holy Week
……………….
Of course Muslims are cheering this tragedy. Damn barbarians.
Wellington says
Seconded, gravenimage. And I’m sure that you are no more surprised by this than I am or so many others who know the “real worth” of that bastardized version of the Judeo-Christian tradition,”Islam” by name.
Islam is a rip-off off of two enlightened religions, Judaism and Christianity. It’s the dumbed-down, problematic and often times just plain wicked flip side of these two earlier faiths. The wonder of it all is that more don’t realize this by now.
That Islam is evil does not stun me. But that this is not almost universally known by now does. Wow, ignorance is a very powerful phenomenon, otherwise how explain anyone having any respect for this religion who is not deluded enough to be a follower of it?
James C says
Sometimes people refuse to face facts that, if admitted, would require them to change their ways. This is not nescience (the state of simple not knowing), but of more or less deliberate shying away from what one is conscious may be true, and does not want to be true.
If one has built a career, or a tradition, or a life, on shying away from what one is at last conscious may be true, and does not want to be true, changing course may be extremely difficult. When such people exercise great authority in Church or state, there is a problem.
warren nicodemus says
Why have our leaders forsaken us ? Today it’s Notre Dame cathedral . Tomorrow its the Sistine Chapel . Islam’s hate will spread until it touches all our lives . Don’t be fooled , Allah will use this SATANIC army of hate , blood , pain & misery to inflect the greatest evils on every non -believing Kafir on earth . Wake -up people , because Jesus is not coming to save us .
lebel says
“Many Muslims believe that the ruins and destruction of non-Muslim structures testifies to the truth of Islam”
Bullshit, just spreading hate against Muslims on your site.
owensgate says
Definitely un-Christian to hate the Musselman, but 100% Christian to HATE ISLAM.
AnneM04031959 says
Pray for the CONVERSION of ALL to Christ!
duh swami says
Anything from the ‘age of ignorance’, must be destroyed…
CogitoErgoSum says
Lebel, Do you think you could persuade Erdogan to give the Hagia Sophia back?
gravenimage says
What crap from lebel. Islamic scripture is full of gloating over the ruins of pre-Islamic structures.
Then there is the whole concept of Jahilyya–“pre-Islamic ignorance”.
Muslims destroy such symbols of Jahilyya all over the world–the destruction of the famous Bamiyan Buddhas is one of the most famous examples, bu there are thousands more.
Note that lebel seems to have no issue with Muslims cheering the destruction of this great landmark. But then, why would he?
Wellington says
So, lebel, are you asserting that Muzzies never celebrate bad stuff that happens to us kuffaars? If you do, you’re full of shit because Mo”s deluded followers regularly extol non-Muslims getting their come-uppance.
In fact, no group of religious followers, not even a close call here, routinely celebrate bad things happening to non-believers. Just reflect for a moment, as an example, all the Palestinians celebrating 9/11 on that terrible day, courtesy entirely due to Mohammedanism, and which is why Arafat has to make a point of giving blood to 9/11 survivors to counter what he knew only too well was a PR disaster in the making. It’s all part of the sickness which is Islam, but of course this will go over your head as so much else does.
eduardo odraude says
lebel,
Muhammad is the spreader of hate, torture, rape:
Your own core Islamic texts describe how Muhammad tortured a man to get hold of a treasure, then had the man beheaded, then within a day or so “married” the beheaded man’s widow, whose father and brothers Muhammad had also killed. Why do you defend this?
In the video below, an ex-Muslim, fluent in both Arabic and English, takes us brilliantly through the various Islamic texts that refer to Muhammad’s torture of Kinana and rape of Kinana’s widow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSV-0HdiFEM
Wellington says
I’ve often thought, eduardo, that the weakest link in Islam is Mohammed himself. Destroy Mohammed and you destroy Islam.
The “Kinana story,” which you brought up, is as good a place to start as any, though reasonable minds can differ which account of Mo is the best place to start to discredit Mo. After all, there are so many to choose from. What he sanctioned where Abu Afaq is concerned constitutes another “fine beginning” as is the account of what Mo gave his blessing to respecting what happened to Asma bint Marwan. I personally like Mo’s assessment of blacks (e.g., “raisinheads”) and most of the people in Hell being women as also first-rate places to start.
You gettin’ any of this, lebel? You see, though you seek to discredit those who regularly post here at JW, the weakest link in your pathetic attempt to achieve this is that way too many people here at JW, people like eduardo, gravenimage, mortimer, James Lincoln, somehistory, Ashley, Cogito Ergo Sum, duh swami, FYI, Mirren 10, dda, Roland B, ecosse 1314, demsci, epistemology, Frank Anderson, Terry Gain, yours truly, et al. know far too much about Islam to ever accord it as something positive in mankind’s history.
Yeah, learn this. Do so. Give it a shot.
Raymond Lee Jackson says
I’m not a religious person myself, but anybody who would laugh at a religious building being destroyed needs to have their internal organs removed while they live. Muslims are evil. They are the only religious people that take happiness from destruction of “infidels”. Muslims are cowards. They don’t fight honorably nor do they fight like real men.
lebel says
“The “Kinana story,” which you brought up, is as good a place to start as any, though reasonable minds can differ which account of Mo is the best place to start to discredit Mo.”
Pretty good place to start since it’s baseless.
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/177694/the-story-of-the-killing-of-asma-bint-marwaan-is-false
Wellington says
lebel: Are all the stories of Mohammed having people killed or sanctioning the death of others false? Was Mohammed nothing but a choir boy? Oh, forgot, music is haram in Islam and I guess that’s why Islamic musical theater is a very thin repertoire.
And how about good ole’ Kinana burnt to death? Is that false as well?
Look, lebel, a person like Mohammed had no business founding a religion and any deity who would choose a delusional psychopath like Mohammed to be the last and greatest of the prophets is a deity which deserves no respect.
Demsci says
Nevertheless lebel, the link you provided said that the story you call “baseless” is from a HADITH. A weak one, but still …….all the Hadith are in the sacred texts.
This sullies Islam. Since there is no central authority that can unequivocally denounce this, it is still possible for, say, ISIS, to claim that this HADITH is valid and prescriptive, not baseless as YOU and others say.
that then would be an example of differing explanations of parts of sacred texts. This is weakness of all of Islam; unclarity, ambiguity, contradicting explanations, obsoleteness because of immutability and lack of updating, even in the face of embarrassing Hadiths.
Demsci says
Wellington, nice touch to mention the JW-posters who indeed know a lot about Islam, of course also, but certainly not exclusively through Robert Spencer.
I appreciated the compliment, it meant a lot to me.
Wellington says
Good points, Demsci.
eduardo odraude says
I checked out lebel’s link which supposedly refutes that Muhammad tortured Kinana to get hold of a treasure, then killed Kinana, then “married” (raped, in this case) Kinana’s widow, whose father and brother Muhammad had also executed.
Guess what. The webpage lebel links to says NOTHING about Kinana. The webpage is all about Asma bint Marwan. So lebel has no answer about Kinana and just posts a phony link, knowing few people will bother to check his link out.
I urge people to watch the video I posted above (also below, for your convenience) where an expert fluent in Arabic, English, and in the core Islamic texts takes the viewer quickly through the texts that tell the story of the torture of Kinana and the rape of his widow.
Lebel cannot deny this story, and so many others that are in his own core texts! He ridicules claims about taqiyaa (religiously sanctioned deception on behalf of Islam), but then engages in it himself.
Learn about Kinana:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSV-0HdiFEM
gravenimage says
lebel wrote:
“The “Kinana story,” which you brought up, is as good a place to start as any, though reasonable minds can differ which account of Mo is the best place to start to discredit Mo.”
Pretty good place to start since it’s baseless.
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/177694/the-story-of-the-killing-of-asma-bint-marwaan-is-false
……………………
This is grimly hilarious. lebel doesn’t say why all the references to the killing of Asma bint Marwan come from Islamic sources.
Then the link lebel provides at Islam Q & A cites this “Torah” quote:
In the Torah it says: “O Prophet! We have sent you as a witness and as a bearer of glad tidings, a saviour to the unlettered. You are My slave and My Messenger, and I have named you al-Mutawakkil (the one who puts his trust solely in Allah). He is not coarse or uncouth, shouting in the marketplace; he does not repay evil with evil, rather he overlooks and forgives.”
Of course, there is no such quote in the Torah.
Why isn’t lebel embarrassed by presenting this twaddle?
gravenimage says
And, as Eduardo notes, his link actually has nothing to say about the “Prophet” torturing Kinana to death and then “marrying” his poor widow that same night.
WPM says
Why is it untrue if they are posting on line they are think it is Allah will ?I see many happy people who look middle eastern pointing and laughing at the fire on line? They are posting it is Islam truth that the fire destroyed the church. Truth = hate speech ,right, it a plot by Jihad watch ,Jihad watch writers must have done a false flag to get all the Moslems to celebrate on line on tweeter, face book about the fire? Maybe it was a Jewish plot ,or a right wing white supremist who is forcing the Moslems to celebrate on line? It must be Trumps fault some how we all know it!
scherado says
Well. They really don’t even know what the problem IS; In grand, general terms, that is, the overlying conflict that is the root of ALL the violence, is this: Each party thinks THEY have the MEANING to Existence; One side EXPLAINS all of it (Existence) by a Creator, the other believes in Darwanism.
Any Religions, all their religions are expressions of their statement I believe THIS and you do NOT.
scherado says
Let the fighting begin.
gravenimage says
There are many religious people who accept evolution.
Wellington says
Evolution and the Judeo-Christian conception of existence are not at all incompatible as long as one understands, as Thomas Aquinas did back in the 13th century, that the Bible was never meant to be a scientific treatise. Think metaphor here.
Deny evolution and you might as well deny that the earth revolves around the sun. In fact, denying evolution, for which the evidence is voluminous by way of such things as radioactive dating, stratigraphy and the fossilized evidence for hominids going back at least 7 million years, only sets one up for mockery, which in turn will assuredly cast doubt on any Judeo-Christian theological interpretation of existence.
Reconsider, scherado.
owensgate says
Evolution is a Satanic LIE. A single celled organism cannot happen by itself; there is such a thing as “irreducible complexity”, ALL the parts have to come into existence at the same time. The chance of even ONE protein “assembling itself” from slime swamp water is something like 1 in 10^160, and any chance greater than 1 in 10^50 is defined as “impossible”. Even if it were possible, it can’t explain where INFORMATION comes from. Information comes from a MIND, in this case, GOD. Get over it. Darwin was an idiot.
lebel says
Bonus question:
Biggest Satanic lie, Islam or evolution?
I guess Islam since its more evil than evil?
Kay says
@ libel
Biggest satanic lie: you are equal to God.
“Be still and know that I AM.”
Wellington says
Darwin was an idiot? Rather says it all about you, owensgate.
And consider this: Evolution only quite arguably testifies to the greater power and subtlety of a possible higher intelligence or Supreme Being who orchestrated the evolutionary process. Evolution, if one is inclined to be religious, bespeaks of God’s omniscience and omnipotence all the more. Besides, what are you going to do with the mountains of evidence we have for evolution, such as at least six species of Austrlopithecus and over 80,000 skeleton remains of Neanderthal Man? Just wish this evidence away? Is this your “plan?”
eduardo odraude says
While I agree evolution happened, I think the materialist, Darwinian, and neo-Darwinian explanations are inadequate. I don’t think one can in a fully coherent way derive evolution from purely physical causes, though natural selection no doubt did play a role. As for the non-physical causes, I doubt they require God to possess omniscience or omnipotence. Perhaps those characteristics are even precluded from a fully coherent interpretation of evolution. I also think that in evolution, as counter-intuitive as this will sound, the lower is in a sense derived from the higher more than the other way around. Specifically, the human being, though not physically present at the beginning of evolution, was spiritually present in a primitive yet universal (unspecialized) form. The various organisms that evolved during the course of evolution are as it were fragments extruded from that universal spiritual human being. Those fragments became fixed and thus were pushed out or excreted from the mobile, nonphysical human form and therefore descended early into matter, while the spiritual human being remained mobile and merely passed through the various forms of evolution without actually becoming fixed or physically incarnating in any of them. To varying degrees, the various forms beneath the human all descended too quickly and deeply into matter and that is why they are all narrowly adapted to more or less particular evolutionary niches beyond which they cannot venture and without which they tend to go extinct. The human being only incarnated at the latest stage, when a physiological form had been attained that did not specialize in any particular niche. The human form is unspecialized and in that sense “primitive,” but also for that reason universal. The invisible human form is the universal building plan from which every organism in nature is derived. The human organism alone actualizes, more or less fully, that invisible bauplan. All the other organisms emphasize a particular aspect of the bauplan and thus specialize in one or another particular direction.
Wellington says
Well, eduardo, and I write this with respect for you, the Darwinian and Neo-Darwinian explanations for life and existence may be inadequate, but the same could be said of ANY religious explanation of the cosmos. In fact, I would argue that religious explanations, though admittedly possibly true, are the MOST inadequate of ALL explanations for existence.
I proceed on the basis that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Of the three main routes to decipher why there is anything rather than nothing, they being religion, philosophy and science, religion comes in third place here as I determine matters. Both philosophy and science (science even more than philosophy) make more of an effort than religion to establish extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims.
Moreover, and this is key for me, philosophy and science don’t threaten one for not accepting their conclusions, but religion regularly threatens one for not accepting its conclusions. This is wrong per the religious route (and virtually all religions engage in this) and evidence to me that religion doth protest too much.
Your turn, my friend.
eduardo odraude says
Hi Wellington, thanks, friend, for the very kind and tolerant reply.
I suppose my earlier post sounded religious, as in based on faith. But I come to it based on my current assessment of my own direct experience. I too prefer the scientific attitude, but I think it should be extended as far as possible beyond the physical aspect of things. Everything in this discussion you and I are having hinges on whether one feels justified by reflection and experience in acknowledging that there exists a non-physical side of the world, a realm that cannot be reduced to the material world, indeed a realm from which the material world itself gradually derived by something like “condensation” or “coagulation.” Once one concludes one has arrived at the point where one knows from one’s own experience that the non-physical world is independently real and at least as rich, multifarious, and orderly as physical nature, then much of physical science appears, not wrong — certainly physical science is one of the most magnificent achievements of the human mind — but incomplete.
Perhaps the best way to just dip one’s toes into the vast sea I’m hinting at would be to read Owen Barfields’ Worlds Apart. It is a fictional dialog (about 200 pages) between a physicist, a biologist, a Freudian psychiatrist, a theologian, a lawyer-philologist, a linguistic philosopher, a retired Waldorf school teacher, and a young man employed at a rocket research station. The fact that Barfield (whom C.S. Lewis referred to as “the wisest and best of my unofficial teachers”) could brilliantly ventriloquize all those characters gives an idea of the vastness of his erudition. T.S. Eliot called the book a “journey into seas of thought very far from ordinary routes of intellectual shipping.” True, and yet the book is only the beginning of a path that can eventually lead very far, to sojourns beyond the body into non-physical worlds that transform one at all levels, thought, feeling, and will. Barfield’s book indicates what to read after Worlds Apart if one wishes to proceed further on a path of spiritual empiricism.
Mark Swan says
To Evolutionists
First, be upfront and more openly public with the difficulties of your theories and the disagreements within your ranks. The robust discussions and strong differences of opinion need to appear in the public square, not just in the journals of your profession or niche periodicals. When a popular channel wishes to feature your favorite idea as “the” solution above all others, resist temptation. Those among you who publicly paint their preferred explanations of life’s phenomena as the “one true way” (even while giving occasional lip service to other possibilities) are damaging your profession and the credibility of scientists everywhere.
Many want to blame the loss of “faith” in experts on a gullible public willing to believe anything; they should consider, instead, the fact that the public has grown both weary and wary—tired of experts who make larger claims than they should, and increasingly cautious about which experts to believe. Instead of blaming the public, look to your own house and clean up your own act.
Hiding the difficulties and disagreements for fear of what “creationists” may say is not the solution. Radical truth, honesty, and transparency is the solution. Consider where the facts end and your interpretation of them begins and understand how both mix and mingle in what you communicate. It doesn’t mean that all your interpretations are wrong. It simply means that they must be honestly communicated as that: your interpretations, based on your presuppositions and your worldview.
Part and parcel of this is being willing to stop infantilizing your audience with words meant to shape their understanding without their involvement and active engagement. Stop quibbling over words like fact, theory, and hypothesis (even if “they” started it) and stop crafting your “message” in ways that are motivated more by fear of creationist “spin” than dedication to accurate communication. The words of Stephen Jay Gould may be quoted by thousands of young-earth creationists, but there is a reason why he is seen as an honest communicator about evolution, a theory in which he believed, while Richard Dawkins is seen… well, let’s just politely say that Dawkins is seen differently.
All of that may be a lot to ask, but if you want your work to retain any sort of credibility, it is essential. And there are larger challenges ahead for you.
For example, you need to admit that it is not inherently unscientific to claim that life—in all of its many facets—displays elements best understood as the result of some sort of intelligence. To avoid even the admission that such a conclusion can be scientific is ridiculous. Not only does it add to the above-mentioned distrust of experts, it radically cuts you off from valid avenues of research and discovery.
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Can we all agree that—whether it is true or false—this is a scientific statement, capable of being evaluated scientifically?
If the motives of Intelligent Design theorists are suspect because some, even many, of them believe in God, should not the motives of many evolutionary theorists be suspect because some, even many, do not believe in God? Many of Darwin’s most ardent and passionate supporters were motivated to celebrate and advance his theory because it matched their metaphysical leanings. Evolutionist and philosopher Michael Ruse noted of the early naturalists and researchers who latched on to evolutionary theory that, “like everyone else, they had been initially attracted to evolution precisely because of its quasi-religious aspects….”
Should the work of these early evolutionists be called into question due to their “metaphysics” or “philosophy”? Should their ideas and research be discounted because they found the “quasi-religious aspects” of evolution appealing? Don’t such standards apply in both directions?
Call me an optimist, but I believe that most evolutionists, deep down, recognize that the philosophical barriers that they erect against Intelligent Design are mere tactical maneuvers—positions taken to ensure that the enemy has no comfort, not to serve the purposes of science.
Reconsider. Embrace the Intelligent Design movement as a scientific endeavor, at least in principle, and thereby reclaim some authority for the concept of following the evidence wherever it leads. That idea is far closer to the heart of what science should be than the “deny the apostates and burn the heretics” approach so often seen today.
And there is real evidence to suggest that Intelligent Design has merit. We will not attempt to summarize all of it here, but it exists. If anything, let the words of evolutionary heavyweights Francis Crick and Richard Dawkins guide you. For his part, Crick admonished, “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved.” Dawkins’ words provide similar testimony: “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
When considered carefully, their denials become ironic confessions. In fact, combined with a hard look—dare we say, a scientific look—at the actual evidence, their “confessions” point more strongly to design than many care to admit. After all, if biologists must “constantly” keep in mind that life was “not designed,” perhaps it is because the evidence they routinely encounter forcefully argues in the opposite direction.
Appearances are not always deceiving.
Imagine the benefits that could come from taking seriously those currently developing Intelligent Design theories, even if you don’t agree with their conclusions. As we’ve highlighted, many of your colleagues and ideological brothers and sisters have already confessed the benefit of their work. The late Lynn Margulis admitted that their analysis of evolution’s weaknesses was valid, even as she disagreed with their solution. Thomas Nagel has argued of evolution and Intelligent Design, “Either both of them are science or neither of them is.”
Can science be set free to pursue the truth again—to truly follow the evidence wherever it leads?
To Creationists
Concerning your approach toward evolutionists, it is certainly true that there are those who act as living, breathing examples of Paul’s condemnation: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them…. [A]lthough they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened” (Romans 1:18–19, 21).
But these words do not match all evolutionists. Many of them are sincere admirers of the same creation you admire, even if they don’t understand that it actually is a “creation.” They see the world through the lens they have been given—the only lens made available by the educational systems of much of the world.
There are times to rail against words, ideas, and speakers in the same way that Elijah confronted the worshippers of Baal. Ridicule is indeed sometimes the weapon of choice for even a godly warrior.
But so, too, is kinder speech, even when spoken to those who disbelieve: “Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time. Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one” (Colossians 4:5–6).
Concerning the Bible, you are to be commended for your understanding that “the Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35). God is true, and what He reveals is true.
You need at least two things to get your own house in order in this respect. First is the understanding that, while God’s word is truth (John 17:17), we must let it speak to us—not dictate to it. At the same time, we must recognize that respecting the Bible also means respecting where it is silent.
Many of you have long resisted absolutely enormous pressure to give up and embrace a worldview that makes no room for God—that seeks to evict Him from His own creation. That sort of courage is not common today. It is the sort of courage that God is looking for in a world where individuals willing to stand in the gap are increasingly rare (cf. Ezekiel 22:30).
The advice to you is not to abandon your devotion to the Bible, but to expand and deepen that devotion—to build on the love for Scripture you already possess.
A life dedicated to the truth of God requires a willingness to change and to passionately pursue possibilities that sometimes feel unnatural and uncomfortable—possibilities God Himself may be revealing to us through His word. In Acts 17, we see that Dionysius the Areopagite and Damaris, first-century Athenian converts, abandoned the modes of worship they had known their whole lives to follow the sound words they heard from the Apostle Paul. Their idols may have been comfortable, but the truth was more important to them.
Truly respecting God’s word means respecting what it actually says, not clinging to the things we only thought it said. Many Jews of the first century faced such a challenge when their Messiah walked among them explaining that their ideas about what Scripture said were wrong, and that what He was telling them was what it truly did say.
In the search for truth, it is vitally important to be open to the possibility that the teachings of the Bible are sometimes different from what we may long have thought they were. The Bereans to whom Paul preached were praised for their fair-mindedness and their willingness to examine Scripture to confirm the truth of his message (Acts 17:10–12). But what can be missed in their example is that they weren’t simply proving Paul’s message by turning to the Bible. They were demonstrating a willingness to change their minds about what they previously believed the Bible said, based on new evidence about what it actually did say.
And they weren’t looking merely into the age of the earth. They were evaluating some of their deepest understandings of the plan of God, how He worked in the world, how He didn’t, and the nature of their true obligations to Him. In truth, these matters of belief are far more important than whether the earth is old or young—and the Bible’s answers, far more surprising.
If you have the courage to begin exploring those matters, I would encourage you to do so. If your devotion to God’s word is as passionate as you believe it is, you’ll want to understand what the Bible truly says.
But those facts mean nothing if those who believe them do not act in accordance with the truth they reveal. If God created you, He did so for a purpose, and He is ready to reveal that purpose. It is on display in the pages of your Bible.
Perhaps we may wish to begin exploring the larger question: Why did God create us?
Wellington says
A thoughtful analysis, Mark. My compliments.
Taking your last sentence first, one thing is for certain and that is either God created man or man created God. Reasonable minds can differ about which is the more likely—which takes me to the matter of doubt, specifically how much doubt can a theist have about God existing and still be a theist? God existing as a 90% likelihood OK? What about only 10%? 1%? I’m reminded here of David Hume’s observation that the only true Christian is a skeptic, but of course it still adds up to dealing with percentages. (If one is 100% certain that God exists, I am not only intellectually wary of such an individual but would query such a person to the effect then what is the point of faith since certainty does not require faith? In short, faith not only implies doubt but actually demands it.)
Respecting Intelligent Design (also known as the teleological argument for the existence of a Supreme Being), it is a perfectly logical argument but it belongs in the realms of philosophy and religion and very likely has no place in any science class (unless mathematical possibilities are taken into account). But this argument has two defects, logical though it is.
Defect #1 was indicated by Immanuel Kant, who himself believed in God, but noted that existence is not necessarily a category of an idea and that is why all intellectual arguments for the existence of God, however clever (and some of them are very clever like Anselm’s ontological argument), ultimately fail.
Defect #2 is that when one puts forth the Intelligent Design argument such a person points to the complexity of existence, what with such things as gravity, the electromagnetic force, the strong and weak forces, the existence of billions of galaxies, the elaborateness of life on earth, especially human life and in particular the wonders of cognition, but then it can logically be asked if an entity designed all this who designed the designer? Ah, that is where one invoking this argument has to maintain that the designer just exists in the first place but this is wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
Ultimately, “all” a theist has is faith because there is no way to prove that God exists (there is of course no way to prove that God does not exist and why, in a nutshell, denial of God’s existence is intellectually arrogant, illogical and ultimately insupportable). No modern philosopher understood this “dilemma” and “only option” better than Kierkegaard.
Finally, I vigorously assert that a theist, that is to say one who believes that God exists, should have no problem with evolution, none whatsoever (and especially considering the MASSIVE evidence we have for it). As I have already written above in a previous post on this thread, if God exists and evolution occurred, it only stands as a greater testimony to the extraordinary, ineffable nature of this Supreme Being. I’m reminded here of what Malcolm Muggeridge opined, to wit, that God is not only stranger than we can know, He is stranger than we can even imagine.
Best to your and yours, Mark. Hope you don’t mind these comments of mine. Take care.
eduardo odraude says
Mark, looks very interesting on a glance, and normally I’d want to read it, I think, but am starting to get a cold and so I should have gone to bed a while ago. Intrigued enough to take another look tomorrow perhaps.
Mark Swan says
Thank you Wellington for your comments here, I particularly relate
to “but then it can logically be asked if an entity designed all this who designed the designer?” There is where the Bible remains silent.
We can only base our understanding on what is available for analysis.
I enjoy the way you think and express your thoughts, never
feel constrained to comment on my comments—that is what I
appreciate most about this site—free thinkers.
You take care my Friend, I do hope you and yours are healthy and happy.
Mark Swan says
eduardo odraude,
I do hope you feel better.
eduardo odraude says
Hey Mark, I was reading your long comment and thinking, wow, that Mark is a pretty good writer. Then it struck me that the comment seemed too polished to be a mere internet comment, that it sounded like a published piece — so I did a search and found that your comment is an extract from this article: https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/evolution-and-creation-what-both-sides-miss/content
May I ask, did you write that article?
eduardo odraude says
Mark, thanks for the good wishes.
eduardo odraude says
Wellington, your comment is a bit like catnip, full of such intelligently provocative statements, and so despite my cold, I can’t resist the temptation to respond to parts of it.
I’d think a theist must feel at least 50.00001 percent confident. I’d agree that “100%” confidence is a bit too much for a mortal. On the other hand, sometimes I think a person actually experiences something of “God,” so that perhaps something like 99.9% certainty, or whatever certainty we feel about the existence of our own noses, is operative. I do not think we can experience just whatever some theologian, professional or amateur, concludes or assumes God to be. There must be many characterizations of “God” that cannot be experienced, simply because they are not accurate characterizations. But William James’ Varieties of Religious Experience, and the work of Schliermacher, Eliade, and many others, should remind us that “God” is not necessarily only a matter of theorizing. For my own part, I would say that there is a certain kind of love one can experience that has some of the irreducibly immaterial characteristics sometimes attributed to “God.” As you know, following Charles Hartshorne and Alfred North Whitehead, I doubt that omniscience and omnipotence are actual characteristics of God, but I would attribute other superlatives to God. And I wonder if you are familiar with Peter Berger. I’m thinking of his book The Heretical Imperative. He writes there of something less than 100% certainty — he describes instead what he calls “mellow certainty”.
You make a very interesting point about the relation between faith and doubt. But onward:
Perhaps, but I again refer to Charles Hartshorne, who, using the resources of modern logic (some of his books use formal logic to such a degree, with symbols and so on, that the content resembles and seems as difficult as higher mathematics, so I can’t claim to have followed him in those works), Hartshorne claims a rehabilitated form of Anselm’s proof provides a four or sixteen (depending on how one counts) proofs of the existence of God. But I can’t evaluate them. Hartshorne was no lightweight, he was a colleague of Whitehead. But onward:
Aristotle rejected an infinite regress of causes and argued there was a first cause or prime mover. I find an infinite regress of causes at least as hard, in fact harder, to conceive than a prime mover. Since physics tells us such things as that the universe is both finite and unbounded, should the idea of an end to the train of causes really be so boggling? However, again I think the question can only be resolved by the experience of something that is a first cause. That can be experienced when a human being becomes, in fortunate moments, entirely creative. If the human creative process really is creative, then it produces new realities. If the new realities are truly new, then they are in some sense without precedent, without prior cause. The best way to experience what I am talking about is to have the good fortune to experience moments where one is so self-possessed, so alive, so integrated, and so loving, that one begins to participate to some extent, however slight, in self-creation, which is to say one begins to participate in God’s own life, insofar as one can only participate in self-creation to the extent that there is a larger reality already engaged in it at the foundation of things. If one experiences participation in a process of self-creation, then one experiences first cause, or “God”, directly. It is not “turtles all the way down.” One can experience something of the fact on which theological discussion, seeing through a glass darkly, is based. Onward:
Such a learned fellow you are. I loved the Kierkegaard I read. I vaguely recall Diary of a Seducer from Either/Or. Frightening and terrifically brilliant it seemed to me when I read it decades ago.
I agree with you on this.
Forgive me for pushing my views more confidently than is warranted by their substance. I’ve no doubt you can poke many intelligent holes in them. In any event, I always find your comments substantial even if I might not in every case agree with them.
eduardo odraude says
Wellington, an addendum to my long, 8:54 am comment replying to you. The arguments I gave for a “first cause” do not mean I’m arguing that God designs everything and controls everything. To my mind that would mean God is omniscient and omnipotent (which is how Islam conceives God), a theology with which I do not agree. I also do not think strict omniscience or omnipotence are really necessitated by the Bible’s view of God. The God of the Bible is superlative in various ways, but not in the Islamic sense. Insofar as human decision processes are real, not a sham, God cannot know the outcome of those decision processes in advance. Since human decision processes are sometimes real, and human beings are sometimes free beings, God cannot always know what a human being is going to decide to do, and God cannot always control what a human being does. It is Islam that conceives God rather after the image of an all-powerful dictator. I think medieval Christian philosophers and theologians, in interpreting the Bible, invented or at any rate exaggerated and literalized the concepts of omniscience and omnipotence. It is sometimes said that God is omniscient and omnipotent but in some sense voluntarily forgoes these qualities out of love for humanity’s freedom. I’m not sure what I make of that view.
Wellington says
Thanks to eduardo and Mark for their thoughtful replies. Much appreciated. Damn, JW is a great site, what with its concentration on what Islam holds out for all of us as well as wonderful ancillary topics related to, well, everything. Speaking for myself, it is my favorite Internet site of all.
Wellington says
eduardo: Just two final comments. Bertrand Russell in his History of Western Philosophy, which I have found a very fair and balanced account of many religious thinkers who were philosophers even though Russell was a complete skeptic, argued that Aristotle (and Aquinas) were wrong to assume that one cannot question what caused the First Cause. This does not necessarily make Russell correct but he thought he was.
Second point: I have always been under the impression that traditional Christian theology and philosophy, particularly among the great medieval Christian thinkers, maintain that God is indeed omnipotent and omniscient. I recollect as a boy and young man almost certainly being taught this by the priests and nuns who educated me.
Mark Swan says
eduardo odraude,
You traced that work correctly and yes I did contribute to it—Since you appear to be an avid reader—read that entire booklet.
You may be familiar with the site, or just stumbled on it, there you
will find many more booklets on subject material, they are all free
to anyone who wants to read them, online or order a copy they are
free to you any way you choose to read them.
I have been involved for over three decades in this work.
I have an extensive library on the Bible and many of the scientific
works mentioned—I too am an avid reader and Science is the field
where I made a substantial living.
There is no need to speculate when it comes to the truth about
God—yet the honest work it takes to rightly receive it is time
consuming and those booklets are Gods gift to help anyone
interested in what God is and is not—the authors on that site
are interested only in the truth and willing share it with anyone
who is interested.
Thank you for your Comment, you take care.
eduardo odraude says
Thanks Mark, very interesting work there.
Wellington, thanks for your reply. One of the things I like about this site is that there is not much policing of the comments, so one can sometimes go off on a digression and just sort of shoot the breeze.
About this:
Yes, I suggested somewhere in one of my absurdly voluminous comments above, again following Hartshorne, that the medieval Christian philosophers and theologians introduced or at any rate exaggerated and literalized notions of omniscience and omnipotence that the Bible itself does not really require one to have and arguably does not contain. If I recall the details in Hartshorne, he uses formal logic to conceive God as the most superlative being in terms of sympathy and feeling/experiencing something of what-every being is feeling, but God cannot be consistently conceived as omniscient or omnipotent. Perhaps the medieval philosophers to some extent conceived God in the image of earthly authoritarians, as authoritarianism was fairly commonplace in the medieval period. Hartshorne suggests liberal democracy, because of the freedom it brings into human experience, may have been a necessary condition to enable philosophers and theologians to conceive a fully elaborated and consistent theology without omniscience or omnipotence.
If you’d like a last word, I promise not to respond this time! Thanks again Wellington.
gravenimage says
Wellington and Eduardo, I very much agree with you about the over all fine caliber of comments here at Jihad Watch.
And Eduardo, I hope you feel better soon.
Mark Swan says
Yes, gravenimage, I do agree.
Your comments are among those of such fine caliber, thank you
for being such a steady encouragement to everyone here.
gravenimage says
This tragedy was probably not Jihad–but that does not mean that Jihadists were not plotting to destroy this great cathedral:
“France: Muslim girl “in search of love” plotted to blow up car packed with gas canisters near Notre Dame cathedral”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/04/france-muslim-girl-in-search-of-love-plotted-to-blow-up-car-packed-with-gas-canisters-near-notre-dame-cathedral#comment-2085319
This story is also from today.
Wellington says
Islam’s deluded followers reveal themselves again (rather as Omar and Tliab have in the American Congress).
Even though Muslims are almost certainly not responsible for this destruction of a priceless architectural heritage of Western Civilization, just look at the number of Muslims celebrating this. What devout Christian would celebrate the destruction of an age-old century Buddhist Temple? What Orthodox Jew would celebrate the destruction of a Hindu Temple? And so on.
But Muslims aplenty celebrate this. Indeed, Islam is so rotten to the core that when word of this fire was first broadcast hours ago, I am certain, including myself, many thought that Muslim terrorism could be involved. Who of sense thought it could have been due to Buddhist terrorism—or Jewish terrorism—or Hindu terrorism—or Sikh terrorism—or agnostic terrorism—or atheistic terrorism—or Confucianist terrorism—or—or—or—? Yep, either tragic accident or tragic Islam. No third choice.
To all Muslims around the world (this includes you, lebel), you deserve, fully deserve, the suspicions about your warped creed when tragedy like this happens. The fact that some tragedies are not due to Mo’s deluded followers is beside the point. What matters is that a reasonable and informed mind can conclude when tragedy occurs, only one religion is deserving of possible culpability—Islam by name.
This is your legacy, Muslims, in the world in which we live. I for one would vigorously argue you deserve such a “legacy.” Richly so.
gravenimage says
So true.
CogitoErgoSum says
I think the worst possible outcome for Muslims would be if the cause of the fire cannot be determined. They will be forever suspect. The best possible outcome for Christians is if this fire ignites in the souls of Europeans a desire to preserve and protect a Europe that is rapidly disappearing as they all stand by and watch.
ItsJo says
Agree with your post 100%….Muslims because they DO cause so many deaths(9/11 comes to mind) world wide, and we see them violently cutting off heads of journalists(Daniel Pearl comes to mind) Putting people in cages and submerging them into water….the LIST goes on and on and on.
They ARE the first ones that people become suspicious of, as ‘they have EARNED this reputation
because they do, preach hatred, act with hatred and they LOVE DEATH-it would appear MORE, than life.
They treat their women like property(per one of their Own Imams: “Women are like dogs, that smell
and are like raw meat, that SHOULD be covered up”………..They also still use FGM-Female Genital Mutilation on Little Girls, for the later please of their Misogynist Males, that act like Pigs.
There are NOT enough words to describe this ‘so called religion of peace’ that wants to take OVER the world and many nations are seeing that happen in their own countries…Sweden, the UK(that enjoined the sick Sharia Law with English Law) When they CONQUER a place, they build a mosque on it…..when 9/11 in America happened by 20 Muslim Terrorists, they actually WANTED to build a mosque nearby. In other words…they are NOT to be trusted as a “peace-loving people, because they do NOT even treat their female population with decency.”
So what we see in our Own gov’t in America, is the “infiltration of Muslim(with their slow creep into it) and Omar, that is Minimizing what MUSLIM TERRORISTS did in America on 9/11 with her own
insults about: ‘some people did something on a certain day’……….then I, and MANY OTHER AMERICANS DO NOT WANT SOMEONE LIKE HER IN OUR GOV’T, WHO IS MAKING THESE INSULTS AS 3,000 AMERICANS WERE KILLED ON OUR SOIL, “BUT SHE IS PLAYING THE VICTIM-which, by the way, is “How Muslims use Taqyyia, with we, Infidels, in their TRYING TO SILENCE US, AND NOT REACT TO HER LIES/INNUENDO/ AND THE FACT, THAT SHE WORKS WITH “CAIR, TO RAISE FUNDS FOR HAMAS-DECLARED AS TERRORISTS.”
lebel says
“To all Muslims around the world (this includes you, lebel), you deserve, fully deserve, the suspicions about your warped creed when tragedy like this happens.”
Of course, collective responsibility is what jihadwatch is all about.
And about celebrating, I suggest you look around the internet for the many people who celebrated the Christchurch massacre.
kevsh says
I’m a born again believer in Christ and I did not celebrate the murder of Innocent unarmed people. I suggest you search your soul and compare both the Bible and Koran to see which is right. Can you show me a scripture anywhere in the Koran that coincides with Matthew 5:44 in the bible.
lebel says
“Can you show me a scripture anywhere in the Koran that coincides with Matthew 5:44 in the bible.”
While we can find injunctions to forgive or be fair to enemies, there is nothing on loving your enemies. Here is an interesting thought experiment, why is that a bad thing? why should loving your enemies be necessarily viewed as good?
I am happy that you do not celebrate the murder of innocents. Do you think this is because you are a Christian?
eduardo odraude says
Lebel, if you do not understand the injunction to love your enemies, guess what you do not quite understand.
Love. Anyone who begins to understand love in its depths, understands that injunction. That injunction is not some arbitrary invention, some random theological doctrine. That injunction is inherent to experience of the deepest kind of love, though Islam denies it. Despite Islam, some Muslims know that kind of love. Usually, those are the Muslims who don’t know Islam.
What the injunction refers to is a matter of direct experience. If you do not have the experience, or your prior concepts blind you to it, or you do not remember having it, then you will not understand loving one’s enemies. (It is a misinterpretation to take it as meaning a Christian should be the kind of pacifist who will never use force even to defend people being attacked by aggressors.)
Wellington says
I know of virtually no one who celebrated the Christchurch massacre, lebel. Some did say that this should be expected considering Islam’s extensive record in terrorist actions—you know, what goes around, comes around. I for one, as with so many others here at JW, a site you regularly seek to discredit but, thankfully, with dismal results, did not take this approach.
But this aside, how does some 34,000+ terrorist attacks worldwide just since 9/11 done in the name of Mo’s creed stack up to terrorist attacks committed by other religious people since said date? It’s around 34,000+ to, let’s see here, almost 0. And the putrid Christchurch killer did not do his foul deed in the name of Christianity or any other religion, contra Muslims aplenty who kill in the name of their faith aplenty.
You NEVER, lebel, address what I have brought up to you many times, i.e., the 34,000+ figure. Bet you dodge it again and, if you do, it’s all there for others to see—another dodge. Why not address it, lebel? 34,000+ by Muzzies versus almost no terrorist attacks committed in the name of another religion by anyone else.
I assert you’re a deceiver, lebel, not to address this 34,000+ figure. So far you have not and that is why, at least in part, I look upon you as a liar as well as a dissembler.
lebel says
“You NEVER, lebel, address what I have brought up to you many times, i.e., the 34,000+ figure. Bet you dodge it again and, if you do, it’s all there for others to see—another dodge. Why not address it, lebel? 34,000+ by Muzzies versus almost no terrorist attacks committed in the name of another religion by anyone else.”
Easy, I will use the approach I saw displayed at jihadwatch which you had no problem with when it was about shooting 3 year old Muslims in the head. Here we go:
While tragic such attacks need to be brought into perspective given the millions of dead Muslims as a result of non-Muslim attacks and policies from Burma to the 500,000 dead Iraqi Children. Sometimes what goes around comes around and it’s hard for me to shed a tear when Rohinga women are being raped. The evil perpetrated by the US and the West in the Muslim world was bound to lead to this at some point. Maybe if the US stopped intervening in Muslim affairs these individuals wouldn’t be incited to respond in kind. If that does not stop I fear more violence will come in defense of Muslim countries. The main issue of course is that such attacks give pretext for anti-Muslim policies and countries like Israel to take more land from the Palestinians.
This is my answer to all those attacks (minus those that target US soldiers on foreign land which are difficult to define as terrorism) using jihadwatch logic as displayed on the Christchurch thread.
Wellington says
Any killing of Muslims simply because they are Muslim is dead wrong and responsible commenters here at JW would readily second this I am certain. But what we have is terrorism from one religion worldwide in the name of that religion that simply approaches the non-existent from any other religion. Much of this Islamic terrorism is Muslims killing other Muslims.
As for the US and the West being evil, I simply reject this. America has had to get involved in the Middle East and so many other places in the world because most of the world is dysfunctional and tyrannical. This doesn’t mean that America can’t make mistakes but it has never been American policy to deliberately target civilians for the sake of killing civilians. Any killing done by America of civilians was a cruel necessity and the blame for this lies with the tyrants and terrorists of the earth and not America. For instance, during WWII America and Britain had to bomb German cities in order to end the menace of Hitler and Nazism and many German women and children died because of this, but the fault here lies with Hitler and the Nazis and not with the Americans and the British. As Churchill observed, and with great sadness, sometimes civilization must stoop almost as low as the uncivilized world in order to preserve civilization. I don’t think you will understand this, lebel.
Meanwhile, it is only Islam that virtually alone kills in the name of religion and this is my main point about the 34,000+ figure. You missed this too.
Demsci says
What Wellington said. The 34000 figure of attacks is about Muslims doing it in the name of Islam. This is unique among followers of a religion, at least in the 21st century.
You provide some numbers and instances, but we can provide some context in general:
Of course the West fought against Muslims but never against ALL Muslims at the same time. In reality the West always had Muslim allies and was benevolent neutral to most Muslims. So the West on aggregate helped and benefitted the Muslims in general much more than disadvantaged them.
After the Cold War America did rescue the Kuwaiti Muslims and sure enough the Saudi Muslims were much relieved and grateful for it. They clamorued for US intervention.
In Afghanistan America helped the ordinary Afghans, esp. the women, who were much suppressed by the Taliban. And we remember how brutal the Taliban was, they were like ISIS.
In Iraq 2003 America fought a minority dictator and thus helped the Shiite Majority to gain democratic power. And since then 5 governments have come and gone in Iraq without bloodshed. Of the 500000 dead Iraqi children most were killed by Islamic terrorists and these terrorists were chased and killed by the Americans. But you dishonestly blame the Americans for all deaths, including those of terrorists victims deaths and guilty terrorist deaths.
Look, Lebel, when there is war between humans, both sides are to blame, and Saddam Hussein and his regime and the Taliban and all those violent Islamic terrorists …….
You know what? they TOO were sane adult humans. They too were responsible and had plenty choices, America was not after conquest but only after compliance. And America is peaceful and trading with 95 % of the world.
It is simply double standards you use; you attack the American humans, since you obviously think THEY can change, but you do not attack the Muslim humans, since you seem to think they are like children, or even animals. And you seem to think that THEY can not change, so that it is crazy to hold them accountable.
This is the discrimination of lesser expectation. A sort of bigotry, hypocrisy, blatant double standards and as reprehensible as racism. It is really respecting Americans as changeable and despising Muslims as unchangeable.
Demsci says
what I like to warn you about, Lebel, is that the high standards you put up for Americans, that “the other side” can use the same standards for any warlike behavior Muslims engage in. And in the past engaged in. For instance the wars your prophet was engaged in. And the wars the Muslims, Arabs, Turks were fighting when THEY were the mightiest empire on earth.
We have no problem when you chastise us about our violent immoral past deeds, really. But we can compare distant past and recent wars. And conduct with friendly interactions and trade to balance it. By the Muslims and by the West. Comparison with same standards should be paramount don’t you think?
and; when we with all our expertise will answer all your assertions and allegations, some even in agreement, others by refuting, and then it is still sort of draw (which we don;t concede, but suppose) even then Islam loses because ….
Allah must CLEARLY WIN to have had success with HIS intervention through Mohammed. Wat GOOD is it when the master of the universe intervenes and then merely DRAWS with mere mortals? As Wellington says, without ANY benefit for mankind that is not also provided by the mortals?
Do you really think that for mankind Islam was a great divine success, Lebel?!
gravenimage says
Of course, Jihad Watch condemned the NZ shootings.
Not surprising that the appalling lebel is pretending this was not the case.
eduardo odraude says
Sorry, lebel, but literally some 98% of civilian casualties in Iraq were caused by jihadists blowing themselves up in crowds, Shia among Sunni, Sunni among Shia and by the constant disregard for civilian life by jihadists there. Even a leftist website, which did not want to highlight the fact, demonstrated it inadvertently. I’m speaking of iraqbodycount.com. They documented tens of thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq and how they happened. Well, guess what. The man who runs thereligionofpeace.com looked at the cases thus documented and found out that 98% of them were caused by jihadis, not Americans. But that should not surprise anyone who, unlike lebel, has a shred of honesty. Who is not familiar with the same business in Palestine, where the “Palestinians” intentionally put their rocket launchers in civilian areas and hospitals and schools and use their own children as human shields. The point is to score propaganda blows against Israel by leaving them no choice but to kill civilians in order to stop rockets being launched at Israel. Now you lebel try to pull the same BS about the US and Iraq. Sorry, your moral equivalence is 99 and 44/100 percent pure bullshit. Your propaganda and sarcasm and pseudo-irony have no more sincerity or real substance than that of Tokyo Rose. When Islam gives a damn about civilians, especially non-Muslim ones, then you can talk. Until then, something else is pouring out of your mouth.
lebel says
Plenty of people celebrated it, there’s an entire sub-culture of anti-Muslim hate all over the internet from stormfront to jihadwatch.
https://thecognate.com/indias-anti-muslim-bigots-celebrate-new-zealand-terror-attack/
Wellington says
Taking joy in Muslim civilians being killed is simply wrong and only subway kind of human beings will do this. Moreover, one can hate the sin (Islam) without necessarily hating the sinner (Muslims). It is Islam I despise, lebel, and Muslim terrorists. As for the ordinary Muslim I do not despise such a person though I do think such a person is a confused human being. I would say the same thing about Marxism and Marxists, anarchism and anarchists, Neo-Nazism and Neo-Nazis and so on.
But be of no doubt that I long ago developed the conviction that Islam is the odd man out among world religions. Only Islam has such putrid doctrines as death for apostasy and the call to wage war upon mankind “until all the world is with Allah” (Sura 8:39). Also, the character of its founder is that of a brutal, narcissistic psychopath, something else not found among other major faiths. Islam, lebel, is a curse to mankind and is most definitely a mortal threat to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Even you should be able to grasp all this by now.
Finally, there is nothing good that can be found in Islam that can’t be found in other religions but there is much rot in Islam that is virtually impossible to find in any other faith, so why keep it around at all? Islam is so deserving of being put on the trash heap of history because it is the one major faith that is, as Bertrand Russell noted a century ago, totalitarian both in structure and ideology. I hate totalitarianism, lebel.
Demsci says
You are scoring great points in your response to lebel, Wellington! I’ always try and remember your points and use them later on.
We should be thanking Lebel that he allows you and us to spar with him (he strikes me as a man).
gravenimage says
Of course, lebel pretending that Jihad Watch is the Nazi Stormfront is just grotesque.
Good replies from Wellington.
elee says
Applause Wellington for your posts on this thread, including the last one. When the NZ events occurred—that is to say, when a deranged sociopath shot up two mosques full of peaceful worshippers—I began watching for signs, hints, of anything but sorrow. I watched this particular designated Islamophobic hate site with particular attention, because I knew that if there were so much as a hint of ambivalence in the sorrow here, people like lebel would trumpet it far and wide. And I saw nothing but grief and sorrow. That’s the difference between our cultures, lebel. Allah tells you to hate and kill and enslave kafirs. We recognise that every Muslim is a victim of Islam.
lebel says
You’re right, it was all love, I posted an example below
“christianblood says
Mar 15, 2019 at 9:00 pm
I won’t shed tears for a few Islamists who got hurt in a mosque when over
100.000 Christians are being murdered for their faith in the Islamic world in every single year!
https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/06/03/vatican-official-says-100000-christians-are-killed-each-year-because-of-their-faith/”
Enough of your self righteous bullshit, can we get some honest jihadwatchers around here?
Ashley says
lebel…I know you’re pissed off. I think I get it but correct me if I’m wrong.
Christchurch pissed us ALL off, lebel. People were slaughtered for no fucking reason…by a deranged lunatic who admitted he didn’t even have an issue with Islam…he just didn’t want his white race diluted. Dude was nuts, lebel.
Yesterday’s fire…sad. But not a single life lost, only an injured fireman who is going to be fine. I say to hell with the cathedral…never been to Europe, not Catholic. Sorry artifacts were lost…but no lives! And the majestic building will eventually be restored.
On 9/11, Americans were not mourning the loss of the iconic Twin Towers…they were shell-shocked that nearly 3000 people perished. Get where I’m going, lebel? There would be no mention of the iconic Notre Dame Cathedral loss if people had perished in the inferno.
You cherry-pick a comment from Wellington and extrapolate it to fit your narrative. Low, lebel…low. And then you have the fucking AUDACITY to post some India blog to validate your case that people cheered over Christchurch…unbelievable. Couldn’t you find something more here on JW? Or on a blog in Nebraska?
Do you have any idea how many babies died on those planes on 9/11, lebel?
I think you are bright, lebel. Not a compliment…just an observation. I like that you provoke, question. But you targeting Wellington, GI and others here is unbecoming. It is beneath you, IMO.
If you can state your facts/opinions, I’m all ears.
But stop besmirching JW. Your shots are cheap.
You are an enigma to me…
gravenimage says
Interesting that lebel has to cite a troll who wants to see the West destroyed by Muslims as as supposed example of the average Jihad Watch poster.
christianblood is not more exemplative of the average Jihad Watch poster than is lebel himself.
Naildriver says
As individuals we can all choose to vent or ‘sin’, and this sadly occurs too often on opinion boards, as these limbic propensities are legacies of our animal origins; but with Muslims, those animal pleasures are incorporated and applied with numerous directives in the Koran, for Islam’s health and progress; vengence, anger, lust, hate, self pity etc..
What is considered demented, and rightly so, in the West, as the pathological acts of the Christ church killer, you Muslims are encouraged to gleefully approve; with such abominations billed as acts of a martyr. And, Muslims replicate such horrors with promises of … sex after death.
Islam’s devotees follow the Koran that directs such indiscriminate horrors.
A mindless, often frenzied mob is very common in Islamic countries.
Islam thrives upon the worst in men.
gravenimage says
+1
Naildriver says
Mankind seems to be at a moral juncture, where Islam would take the species of man off in one direction where man is not an individual but part of a collective to be ruled by Islam’s clerics, and the West upon another, where individualism, intelligence and character are paramount.
We are having a serious clash of cultures that overrides the other conflicts in the world, as with China or Russia, in the implications for the future of mankind. And, this conflict with Islam goes to the very core of what it is and means to be human.
Islam’s devotees are playing the long game, and when a clear opportunity arises there will be no shortage of devotees answering the call to jihad. Islam is empowered by a men’s entitlement system, but women are also enticed by these collective enticements to our lowest natures, with Islam’s usage of feminine masochism.
Islam entitlement system appeals to man’s animal and limbic propensities.
Where those limbic passions would be restrained under Christianity — they are extolled in Islam; vengence, hate, anger, fear, lust, and lies are parceled out to be savored collectively in Islam’s umma, as with stoning a person to death, and other public forms of blood lust — but most effectively against their enemy.
Seeing this cathedral burn is a delightful entertainment to Islam’s devotees. Footage of this will probably sit on the devoted Muslim’s dvd shelf, along with the Jihadi John’s video of beheadings, or the collected favorites of suicide bombings. Didn’t some poll in Germany find they were the happiest of people?
JD says
Surprising from a culture that produces nothing?
J_not_a says
Islam produces plenty – misery, bloodshed, oppression, hate, backwardness, war, hopelessness, ……
J_not_a says
At this stage anything is possible. Even an arson by a jihadist. When an investigation is done, more will be known unless there is a cover-up. Which is also possible. Sadly we may never know in dhimmified France what really happened.
Warmac9999 says
They laugh because they know nothing will be done.
dmp says
the next step is to replace Notre Dame with a Mosque, and anyone who objects is a bigot, hater, and Islamophobe!
Agustina Saragossa i Domènech says
Notre Dame will rise from its ashes.
¡RECONQUISTA!!!!!
Dave Petteys says
Now Bob: they’ve had trouble enough covering up the 1000 attacks on churches in the last year in France. Even if the Muslims WERE responsible we’d have to cover it up because it would trigger more hatred and discrimination toward Muslims, which would be an insult. And after all, “Insult is worse than slaughter”. The best thing to do is start replacing all these Jahalliyah churches with Mosques in the interest of “religious peace”, right?
Tama says
Respectfully posing /sarc
http://imgur.com/ML2CdYM
Seth says
Ineffably sad. And those who should grieve the most will not lose a night’s sleep.
James says
The fire might not have been set by Muslims. It could have been due to defective wiring or a broken gas main. We should not assume tht Muslims are to blame. Such fires have occurred in the past. An historic building in France once burned down, and there was a fire alarm, but the watchman in charge assumed it was a false alarm and did not go to investigate it. So human error could be to blame. Probably a lot of leftists also felt glad because they hate Christianity as well. But no one should be glad about such losses of cultural treasures. It is really wrong.
Ashley says
This cathedral was deserving of 24/7 security at ALL times.
It had smoke alarms, but did it have security? Scaffolding was left standing after the workers left? No sprinkler system in place? Cameras?
Notre Dave Cathedral is massive and aged…no doubt it was under various states of construction and maintenance each and every day.
France has endured a spate of vandalism/desecration as of late.
Sure…it could have been a freak incident…electrical fire, faulty wiring…
I’m just not ready to accept that explanation.
somehistory says
“Video of the fire was online within minutes of the beginning of the blaze.”
As though people were standing by, just waiting for it to be big enough to film and post.
gravenimage says
Notre Dame is also a huge tourist attraction. Someone with a camera being nearby when the blaze started is not necessarily an indication that they themselves started the fire. The fire started around 6:30 pm local time–there would be plenty of tourists around at a time like that.
somehistory says
I was pointing out what the French guy who lives there said, I’m sure he is aware, more so than I…although I am aware…that “tourists” are drawn to the church. A man on the scene who believes it was terror is in a better position to know what was happening. s smith cut him off before he could complete what he was saying.
And since he said if it is arson, it will likely be covered up, the truth may be a long time coming. It would have to be a huge “mistake” on the job site for it to have been an “accident.”
If the investigators are allowed to say, and they are honest, then we should know soon if they think it is arson. And why.
Carol the 1st says
I recall reading there are a lot of muslims living around the cathedral (didn’t find anything in JW archives to confirm however).
Ashley says
The idea of this inferno being an act of arson should not be dismissed in haste:
https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/how-did-the-notre-dame-cathedral-blaze-start/3703263/
somehistory says
Ashley,
I heard a little bit from shephard smith as the fire was burning. He was dismissive as the paper pointed out. I turned away from him and listened to two other reporters on different channels. One of them even suggested that it might be terrorism because of all of the other terror attacks in France. BBC had some authority in Paris saying they would “rebuild.”
If I wagered, I would bet that it is terrorism, but as the guy said in the news you linked, it may be covered over by pc.
Tina says
I am not defending anyone by any means, but not all Muslims are laughing at this tragedy. There are some that are just as horrified as the rest of us. I always wanted to see this beautiful site and never will be able not just because it now gone but because I can no longer travel. I will never be able to travel again. So please, those of you who can travel, do so if you can, and take in the history and beauty of all you see.
eduardo odraude says
TIME columnist Christopher J. Hale tweeted, “A Jesuit friend in Paris who works in #NotreDame told me cathedral staff said the fire was intentionally set.”
Hale quickly deleted his tweet when it attracted attention.
https://www.infowars.com/notre-dame-cathedral-in-paris-on-fire-worker-claims-it-was-deliberately-started/
eduardo odraude says
Trump comments on the burning of Notre Dame:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/04/15/trump_on_notre_dame_one_of_the_greatest_treasures_in_the_world_is_burning_to_the_ground.html
James says
Two links from RT. com:
https://www.rt.com/news/456629-french-catholic-churches-attacks/
https://www.rt.com/
Apparently Macron has vowed to rebuild Notre-Dame. We shall see what happens. Given the current banality and decrepitude of French Catholicism, and the refusal of Macron and others to see the threat from Islam, it is hard to believe any good will come of this.
Gina says
“Some people did something”….again.
somehistory says
“The Paris prosecutors’ office ruled out arson and possible terror-related motives, and said it was treating the fire as an accident, The Associated Press reported.”
“The entire roof is fully destroyed,” Picaud said. “The fire started up near the roof top while another fire started in the north bell tower.”
“…also spread to one of the church’s landmark rectangular towers. Flames could be seen blazing behind an oblong stained-glass window in one of the towers.” (NBC News)
******************************************************
At least 2 different fires…”started up near the roof top” and…”another fire started in the north bell tower” This is something that happens with arson. Accident? As the “Paris prosecutors’ office” has already stated? he has already “ruled out terror-related motives.”
Sylvia says
Amazing how quickly they were able to rule out terrorism?!
somehistory says
Sylvia
Honest fire investigation always takes time. More than a few hours on the day of the fire. I believe he’s hiding the truth before it can be revealed.
Sylvia says
Exactly.
eduardo odraude says
Governments, even democratic ones, often prioritize keeping order over telling the truth, if they think the truth may lead to riots or worse. On the other hand, it might be they know the cause of the fire and know that the cause was not arson. Perhaps details will emerge. How do they explain that fire broke out at several different parts of the roof? At first hearing, that seems strange. Was there some negligence involved? Some faulty wiring? But why did that lead to fires in several different places at the same moment? A story will come out, and we’ll see whether it’s convincing or not.
Carol the 1st says
It’s probably just careless writing. Another article mentions it started in the roof and then spread up the spire and at its worst it was threatening the North rectangular tower.
This short video isn’t about the fire but shows some of the interior as people discuss renovations:
Inside The Race To Save The Notre Dame Cathedral | TODAY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVK3QjkX2s0
This video shows Mark Steyn reflecting upon secular France and how cathedrals are sadly becoming more like museums that really don’t reflect their neighbourhoods anymore:
Notre Dame fire investigated as ‘accident’: French officials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVK3QjkX2s0
Carol the 1st says
Oops…here’s the link to the Mark Steyn interview:
Notre Dame fire investigated as ‘accident’: French officials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzpfwZPZ4f8v
Carol the 1st says
Dare I try again?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzpfwZPZ4f8
Carol the 1st says
Black Pigeon did an impromptu video about an hour ago. Like Mark Steyn he reflects upon the meaning of this happening. This particular Jihad Watch article is shown about 2:45:
Notre Dame: Postmodern Synchronicity & Fragility
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGccmJjFY20
CRUSADER says
Crusades brought back to France a wealth of cultural and religious inspiration.
Architecture and art design for the massive cathedral building was part of this.
Hurrah for the grand Notre Dame.
May she live in memory, and inspire us to know that the Church is really the people
not morter, stone, copper, nor timber….
Blessed be the Christ and the Mother of God.
++++++
Or Else! says
The cathedral is still on fire, and already the Left-stream media is telling us “It’s not arson….”
Yeah, right. I believe an organized propaganda machine that’s been pushing a “Trump-Russia” collusion hoax for two years, and STILL won’t relent in the face of Mueller’s findings. Not to mention how they treated the Kavanaugh and Smollett cases–to name only two.
We’ll never get any TRUTH from those “journalists”.
James C says
This may be of interest: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame_Cathedral_bombing_attempt
That was discovered in time……
Chris says
So lots of muslims cheering on this fire on social media… but it’s not considered hatespeech…
James C says
Not if Muslims do it, no. Only if bad, mean, Western, Christian, (straight, male), right-wing, Fascist, Nazi, far right Whitey does it. Then it is totally evil 🙂 Whitey is basically Hitler, after all. And white Christians are by this reckoning the incarnation of evil.
It all depends who one is. Muslims are basically the New Jesus – no evidence or proof can possibly show that they are criminals. And in some quarters, criticism of them, no matter how rational, is an Unthought. It’s really quite hilarious to see the knots people tie themselves in so as to avoid criticising, or tolerating criticism, of the sainted Mahomet and his regiment of Jesuses. So if one of the Jesuses does something undeniably foul, then he is, magically, not a Muslim at all.
awake says
I think that a pause is warranted here. We cannot possibly know the origin of this conflagration yet. Likely we will never know. We, as a collective people were already forced to accept Mandalay, without motive.
I don’t expect a thorough investigation. I expect the media subterfuge, regardless. It has already begun. The liberal narrative is likely how this accident has now put Mohammedans at risk, due to inherent islamophobia, not the gravity of the tragedy itself.
Now, I for one, despise Islam. It is an irredeemable ideology in my estimation. It is a doctrine of perpetual war against dar al Harb.
I will not hold all Muslims as culpable in this tragic event. I will however, hold Islam as inherently guilty here. Regardless if this is proven an unfortunate accident, or outright jihad, France, like most of Western Europe, has long embraced their own destruction at the strangling hands of Islam.
Or Else! says
Agreed….but France–and the rest of the West—has been ill-educated on that front. “Diversity, inclusion, socialist utopia” has blinded them as to a REAL ENEMY. They’ve been duped by Islam masquerading as a member of the “victim identities”.
The Western Left’s identity politics has opened what the Viennese and Jan Sobieski closed in 1683.
awake says
No argument here. We all must accept that the fact that all three Abrahamic faiths are mutually exclusive. That is not a remarkable statement in any fashion. That is simply irrefutable reality.
eduardo odraude says
But the Jewish and Christian faiths are far more related with each other than either is with Islam. Judaism and Christianity share a number of key beliefs. Islam’s fundamental beliefs are radically different, so much so, that it is a mistake to call Islam “Abrahamic”.
awake says
What’s your point eduardo? Are you refuting my statement?
Kay says
I’m refuting it. Judaism and Christianity are intertwined. We use many of the same Scriptures.
Jesus and his disciples were Jewish, celebrated Jewish feasts, worshipped the same God.
The Christian Bible says we are a branch grafted onto the tree (of the true faith).
At worst, Judaism would claim Christianity is a small sect who followed a false Messiah.
awake says
“At worst, Judaism would claim Christianity is a small sect who followed a false Messiah.”
Thank you for proving my point. They are all mutually exclusive in central belief, as I stated. If that is your “at worst” conclusion, what would be your “at best conclusion”.
gravenimage says
True, Eduardo.
Isabellathecrusader says
Well, we will know shortly if Muslims were involved because seeing that they were successful they will do it again. But it couldn’t have been that hard to do. “Catholics” in France have forgotten the point and nature hates a vacuum. If we don’t tend to our churches by going there and worshiping God of course the demons will take over, and the people who worship their demon god.
elee says
(1) There was only one Notre Dame in the world, so what can you mean about “do it again”? Somebody’s been torching and desecrating churches in Europe…..who? Ronin samurai? Albigensians? Biafran nationalists?; (2) If they succeed the do it again. If they don’t succeed they do it again, until the succeed. Remember, they tried at least once unsuccessfully to destroy the twin towers, before they figured out the part about letting the kafirs build their bombs for them. If this wasn’t a Muslim operation, will they stop trying tomorrow? Why should tomorrow be any different from the last millennium and a half? As I said before this happened……Kafirs, get ready to guard everything you hold dear.
CRUSADER says
It was the flamin’ Ronin.
47 of ’em.
CRUSADER says
“Then the spirit finds seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they all enter the person and live there. And so that person is worse off than before. That will be the experience of this evil generation.”
Matthew 12:45
DogOnPorch says
Heartbreaking to see this great building burn. Like others, I wish to be sure about its cause before getting angry.
So find out the cause…and no fibbing for PC purposes.
Isabellathecrusader says
Watch for Ilhan Omar to come out tomorrow complaining of death threats because somebody burned a Catholic church down. That little Muslim chick has an answer and an excuse for everything.
the hermit says
Please dont call it a little muslim chick…..its a pos….
Isabellathecrusader says
Hermit, I believe they are one in the same.
NotALibNoMo says
I wonder if she’s a good little muslima, or does she still have a clitoris like a common whore?
eduardo odraude says
I notice that many of the news stories do not say French investigators have “ruled out arson” but rather they have “ruled out arson for now”. That is a contradictory statement on the one hand certain — “ruled out” — and yet tentative — “for now”. From a purely political standpoint, that might be the most pacifying kind of statement the authorities could have conceived. It throws a bone to everyone.
Timothy Stutts says
Just as when 9/11 occurred in the U.S. the explanation and subsequent enacting of “The Patriot Act” was a Stellar Power/Control by the Power Mongers that exists in the U.S. some folks to this day beleive the “Offical Government Lie…opps i mean Line…..Amazing….but Sad.
gravenimage says
Looks like we have another witless 9/11 “Truther” here who doesn’t believe that 9/11 had anything to do with Jihad. *Ugh*.
Are all 34,000+ Jihad terror attacks in the world also pulled off the by ‘filthy Infidels’?
Lydia Church says
Yes, with the Christchurch event, where ‘someone did something,’ the whole country was cajoled into mourning. When something like this event happens, no one feels any ‘solidarity.’ Christians dying in Nigeria and all over the world and all you hear from others is crickets. No muslims decrying any of it. Then one thing happens to them and all the crybabies come out and the leaders don a hijab and call for national mourning. It is pathetic. As I said, I don’t comply. My cross just gets bigger. And it can never be broken.
With this fire, yes, me thinks that ‘someone did something’!
CRUSADER says
Astute of you, Lydia.
Here is a raised goblet to your Church, by the way.
+++
Davegreybeard says
Wellington, you said:
“Even though Muslims are almost certainly not responsible for this destruction of a priceless architectural heritage of Western Civilization…”
I have great respect for your postings Wellington, but I most robustly disagree with you here.
How in the hell can you be so certain that Muslims are not responsible at this early date? With the suggestion that Muslims workers were actively recruited for the restoration work?
I smell rats buddy, and I am astonished that you do not catch a whiff of it as well.
CRUSADER says
With the way POLITICAL CORRECTNESS plays out in the Ile-de-France,
and particularly with Macaroni heading up things there, it is smart to stay skeptical.
Wellington says
I’m not certain, Davegreybeard, that this is not a “matter” of Muslim origin and perhaps I could have expressed myself better by stating that it is “unlikely” that this is Muslim related instead of what I did state, i.e., “almost certainly not responsible…”. I was just calculating the odds and they seem to point to some freak electrical problem due to incompetency.
Hey, if of Muslim origin, I will be the first to assert that I am not surprised because I put nothing past Muslims, including a Muslim father killing his own daughter for not wearing an hijab or for dating a non-Muslim man—or a Muslim being killed for converting to another faith—or a non-Muslim killed for daring to criticize or mock Islam—or—or—or—.
The Islamic faith makes followers of Mo’s warped creed capable of most every barbarism. However, respecting the Notre Dame fire I just have a hunch that this is not Muslim-related, though if it should prove to be the case then the silver lining in the architecturally destructive cloud here is that once again Islam and its deluded followers are shown to be capable of anything. At the very least, the gloating by many followers of the worst religion of all time, already noted in detail at JW by Robert Spencer, of the partial destruction of this priceless Western architectural heritage serves as evidence enough of the calamitous consequences Islam does to the human mind and spirit.
Hope you are doing well. Take care, pal.
LR says
Well, that is no doubt what many including myself thought of when we saw it burning…That evil Islamists would be cheering…Evil bastards…
Heidi says
A history of desecrations https://gellerreport.com/2019/04/notre-dame-intentionally-set.html/
Brian hoff says
The Yellow Jacket mob causeing alot of civil unrest in French might have start the fire.
gravenimage says
Ah…right. “Brian hoff”–really, “DefenderofIslam”–is claiming that the ‘filthy Infidels’ are deliberately burning down their own churches.
Nice try, creep.
John says
I’m sorry but I have to finally admit to myself that Islam is evil. A large enough % of their followers are bad. Facts are right in front of our faces. We try hard not to stereotype but they continue to rape, kill and fight us at every turn. I am convinced they are from the devil.
TruthHonestReality says
Muslimes did this and the media and government will never ever come out and tell the truth about the fact that mu slime s set this fire.
Terra Nova says
We will never know the “who did it”. They were to fast with giving the message, it was an accident, but this is what you will get: As muslims are in everything, with all kind of jobs, in governments, police, academics, hospitals, you name it they worked themselves into everything. As they were laughing about this, it is to most people a violent act, and how can it start to burn at 2 places at the same time, this is what yogurt: people will thin at every fire, horrible crimes: Muslims did this !!! And this is very understandable, because 98 % of the horrible crimes you committed are yours. And then the muslims will start their victim roles again and everybody has to feel sorry for them and then they will launch other horrible stuff, because when you want to be “BAD”, you can always do it. We could too, and be very, very bad and you would not know what hits you, but we are not (yet), because some of us still believe in a peaceful earth that can be reached one day.
Fires can not start normal in 2 places at the same time,, that happened in the pentagon 9/11 and later they discovered it could not have been. Same in the twin towers.
But, the sun king in Versaille will cover up everything, so will other western governments do, to keep quiet, not rocking the boat. I would strongly advise them not to do that for to long, it will start to reverse, the famous action and reaction, the Big Universal Law.
My God, what a sickening EU, UN and governments we have voted for. But PEOPLE, it is not q question
of waking up, you can not hide behind that any more, you just don’t want any trouble, which is there anyway already, and you are like ostriches, you don’t want to know, you will only start to talk when it hits you, your children and grandchildren personally. Think about this with your next voting.
DanC says
I’ve searched in many places and no explanation whatsoever why/how it started. Weird. Every other fire in the news has an explanation, at least an educated guess from firefighters. Not this one. WHY???
This leads me to believe there’s a coverup in the making. Everyone knows that such a fire cannot be some construction mishap. Nor neglect. It was too strong/devastating to be just a stray little thing. So there must be a criminal hand. And this criminal hand cannot be Christian. Nor atheist/Jewish/Hindu…
AnneM04031959 says
Yet I have heard that it was called an “accident”.
CRUSADER says
Tragic!
NotALibNoMo says
The terrorists at the terrorist organization CAIR were busy handing out sweets. Oddly, they purchased them in bulk about 3 days before the fire.
eduardo odraude says
what’s your source? Do you have any links?
Carol the 1st says
Do you have any backing for that? (asking on behalf of GI)
skeen66 says
Thank you, Mr. Spencer, for the great video of Stefan Molyneaux’s; he brought calm, reason, and even some “poetry” to the subject of the Notre Dame fire.
eduardo odraude says
Readers of the news should watch to see if the government decides not to investigate the cause or decides to do so in the most cursory fashion. If this was arson, a cursory investigation would be the safest way to avoid revealing that. Also, to mount a more than cursory “investigation” might suggest government suspicion of foul play, and the French government might be loathe to give that suggestion to the French public. French politicians under whose watch this happened — Macron on down — might hemorrhage votes at the polls, and may also fear how the event could foment civil war or just a further breakdown of the French social order if investigation determined this was jihad.
elee says
In the days when this jewel was built there was a Pope who said “Deus vult!” There was a movement throughout Christendom, too many deaths ensued from all the stupidities attendant on mobilising a Mediaeval movement and army, the cross was raised over Jerusalem. Bits of that heritage survived till the eve of our time…….Western powers undertook to vindicate the interests of our civilisation there. Christian powers fought wars about which nation undertook these duties until the 19th century. In the 20th century all that became unfashionable……and look where we are now, with a cultural relativist on the throne of St. Peter and an occupation army in our midst. Our culture is different from and superior to theirs. Vive la difference! Dhimmis, your place is called Pakistan. Read up on your Sharia and go step into the shoes of Asia Bibi.
Eric says
Give it three months. If the authorities still say they don’t know who did it, we’ll know who did.
somehistory says
♪ᴋɪᴍᴀʀɪᴇꜱɪɴɢꜱ
Just because you “have not seen any news sources claiming the origin” doesn’t mean that no one else has seen them.
No one …not even You…can possibly read every news source or even “see” every news source. Wise up and stop trying to tell others what to think or not to write what they think.
win says
what do you see on this 2 short movies mr. spencer. a priest?
https://politikstube.com/dieser-mann-wurde-dreissig-minuten-nach-dem-ausbruch-des-feuers-in-der-kathedrale-gesichtet/?fbclid=IwAR1n7AXgfHVnlaMuu_fTGOPism_RueT-2KaL3RCdAlo-FU48PRkvq1ut2I0
elee says
HEY FOLKS CHECK THIS OUT!!!! Then again the prosecutor “ruled out” arson. I guess this guy was just a tourist who got locked in at closing. Yeah that’s it, he looks like a Yank doesn’t he, note the Bermuda shorts and camera. Or maybe he’s one of the 47 ronin samurai.
elee says
Can anyone translate the German written matter that accompanies this video? Or tell me something about the source? Apologies for my ignorance but somebody please help. Oh and if someone can tell me why the world isn’t all over this please advise. For all I know it’s a fake…….but I’d sure like to know more.
gravenimage says
He’s a firefighter:
https://www.politifact.com/facebook-fact-checks/statements/2019/apr/16/facebook-posts/no-there-was-not-lone-man-dressed-muslim-garb-walk/
Really, there is no need to make stuff up. Good grief.
elee says
Thanks GI, I’m actually kind of relieved. And yes, I never got a translation but as best I could puzzle out the German it seemed to assert that the man was certainly not a firefighter. And yes somebody had to have seen the other footage referenced in the link you posted, and presumably seen either that man or a man similarly dressed handling a firehose. So it appears in this instance the self-nominated truth regulators were right, and somebody along the line of transmission gets a well-deserved Pants On Fire. I suspect that German web site, about which nobody posted any information. Thanks again GI for digging that out and posting.
gravenimage says
Thank you, elee.
Anke Leibrecht says
Ask yourselves, why did this happen the days before Easter??
That fact alone points to possible arson of a particular kind.
UNCLE VLADDI says
PJW just did a spot against buzzardfeed saying the exact same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B64XVAiK-9U
Ralph says
We could begin by noting that on the face of the earth dwell 1.2 billion people who declare themselves adherents to the Muslim faith. Then we could more readily equate the scurrilous piece here, about the tragic destruction of a great historic work of beauty and the branding of Muslims as a primitive, bigoted lot tout court, to the unsupportable declarations by people like Trump about all the criminal immigrants coming at the US from every side. In a nation peopled from all corners by immigrants.
Bilge.
elee says
Ralph, I absolutely agree with you that there are Muslims who are entirely estimable, virtuous, kind and decent human beings. If I knew Islam only by the Muslims I have known I would have to conclude it makes men kind and decent, and many of the precepts in the scriptures are of that tone. There would appear to be two related problems that, for me and IMHO and all, kick in about here. One is that sources I have no reason to doubt—-from the organic scripture, through the authoritative commentators, through to the current rulers of Persia Turkey Pakistan and Indonesia……and a few I;m probably forgetting…..through a constant stream of statements by imams and mullahs and scholars with copious citations to scripture…….through ISIS and CAIR and Hamas……tend to parallel the Islamophobic sources you detest. They say and command and forbid the same things that Islamophobes object to. And the second problem is what “some people” do in our time, what they’ve done in the past, and what they haven’t done. The things “some people” have done in recent times are both familiar and tedious to recount……9/11, Bataclan, Marseille, &c &c &c, and I have no reason to think somebody made up the parts about the “Allah hu Akbar” leitmotif in at least a plurality of the witness accounts, say nothing of the ISIS/al Qaeda/Al Shabab/&c &c &c proclamations about these events. The things they’ve done over the past millennium and a half: from the undisputed accounts of murders and enslavements and other brutalities by the prophet and his sidekicks, through centuries of bloodshed and oppression and destruction……after a millennium and a half that is also a long and tedious tale. Oh and the things they haven’t done….like permit individual free thought, philosophy, innovation, music and arts and the Renaissance and the Reformation and the Industrial Revolution, while they memorised the Koran, said Inshallah a lot, and killed heretics kafirs and apostates. So I am an Islamophobe. I don’t want them to succeed at precisely what CAIR and its ilk honestly proclaim as their objective in Europe and the Americas. I’m sorry you regard our fears as “bilge”…….then again, you must have found at least some of these fears plausible enough to inquire further, or you wouldn’t be here. Thank you for the challenge and for the reminder that we must never let our fears overcome our empathy and compassion for others. Every Muslim is a victim of Islam, and I’m sure a lot of the billion and a half humans you’ve mentioned as Muslims are Islamophobes too. Oh and I omitted a lot of scriptural citations, which would have much increased the length of this post.
elee says
I just replayed twice. The young narrator is a bit wound up, you might find him tedious and self-dramatising, and you may find this more irritating than I do. His focus is obviously on his controversy with the self-appointed media-regulator site and author, not on a broader view of the history of the Muslim culture……if you take the time to replay, do note that at 6:16 he takes the time to acknowledge that neither he nor anyone he cares to quote has asserted that “ALL Muslims,” or a majority of Muslims, or even a “large” number of Muslims, posted smiley faces. He limits his assertion to the unscientific media scan he reports. Maybe that disclaimer should have been at the top of his video; this video is part of a controversy that began before. Oh and I find the quotations from postings most distressing. If you have evidence that people didn’t really post saying these things, please share. I might take some comfort in that.
somehistory says
On the video of Carlson and Steyn, there is an evil face in the flames near the end.
I know it wasn’t *really* there, but it is one of those things…like a face in a cloud or a tortilla. It just looks like an evil face.
somehistory says
Mark Swan,
I happen to believe in a Creator. The way I see it, is He designed life in its many and various forms, and allows changes to take place as life adapts. As Genesis says, “And the water began to swarm, and the air began to swarm.” And the Cretaceous Period, described by an evolutionist, was said to be a time when “life exploded in a burst of different forms.”
I am not a believer in evolution.
One night on Johnny Carson, Orson Bean and Carl Sagan were discussing the very things you have put here on the thread. Carl Sagan at some point in his life stated that he wished he could believe in a Creator. Mr. Bean did believe. At the end of the conversation, he said, “Two goldfish swimming in the bowl, and one said, “”if there is no God, who changes the water everyday”? Mr. Sagan just laughed, but did not answer.
Mark Swan says
Good one somehistory, thank you.
HAL9000 says
so far we are told by the “media” and officials that this was an accident. While there is evidence Moslems on social media have been celebrating the destruction of the Notre Dame Cathedral.
I will be skeptic about news we hear from the mainstream media and especially from public officials knowing their outright deception. As far as Moslems accused of being responsible for this, I think we, as Christians, need to display what Christ has taught us and that is to not judge. In a climate that the world is in now, now is the time to show the world what being a true follower of the Messiah is like. This isn’t to say we should deny our anger or frustration to this tragedy. We just need to be the bigger civilization/society in this and gather facts first before making any irrational statements and/or actions we will regret later.
that said, here is why I think this incident may not have been caused by a Moslem:
1) their M.O. regarding architecture of this magnitude and historical significance has never been about incineration. When Moslems attack an opposing religion’s sacred halls, particularly Christianity and Judaism, their main goal has always been about taking that sacred building and converting it into a mosque. This is evident from the former Christian church, Hagia Sofia in Constantinople (now Istanbul), which was the largest Christian church of the early centuries and is now a converted mosque/islamic museum. Another significant religious building Moselms “conquered” to claim as its own is the 2nd Jewish Temple in Jerusalem where the Al Asqa mosque has been perched on the Temple Mount since the 2nd century.
2) These are important to note because it signals to the world that islam is the true and final religion based on their quran. “Planting” their own flag on top of these significant infidel structures and making it their own creates a feeling of submission where survivors of the conquered infidel faiths must now bow to islam while at the same time adding salt to the wound.
now I do agree that it’s sad and despicable to know there have been an increase in vandalized French and European Christian churches since mass migration occurred. And, that it’s easy to come to the conclusion to deduce logic from that and connect it to the now destroyed Notre Dame Cathedral. Perhaps these “smaller” vandalized churches, to them, aren’t as “big in name” to consider taking it for their own as a way to show off to the world of their righteousness. So they simply destroy them knowing there is a bigger prize to covet. Even though Notre Dame wasn’t “taken and converted” there may yet be an abomination brewing. French President Macron (who is a Globalist freemason) is on record saying they will rebuild it. The concern over this is, there is a possibility the rebuilt Notre Dame Cathedral may not be redone the way it originally stood as a premier Christian House of Christ. Instead, I fear they may “modernize” the interior so it accommodates the “growing diverse culture.” Which means the Notre Dame Cathedral we once knew might now be reconstructed as a modern religious building to house the many different religions and appease the modern world. Paris, as of today has almost half a million Moslems. If a Moslem were to run for political office there, there is a chance he/she may persuade Macron or some future Globalist French President to actually turn the rebuilt Notre Dame interior so it resembles a mosque. Thereby securing their coveted conversion. Doing it this way hides their true intention because it makes it seem we are doing them a favor. It’s an insidious plan but it’s how I’m seeing it unravel.
elee says
I have to disagree with your assertion regarding Muslim MO with regard to the shrines of others. I believe that they not only view themselves as commanded to turn kafir shrines into rubble, they execute the destruction faithfully and with gusto. They hadn’t the slightest interest in putting their flag on the Twin Towers, or the giant Buddhas of Afghanistan, or the antiquities of Palmyra or Timbuktu. As a generality I believe they find reciting the Koran in eternal mudhovels preferable to raising the soaring structures we’ve been building since before the Fat Dwarf. Yes there have been exceptions—-the Alhambra and Topkapi spring to mind—-but these express the indulgent heaven-before-martyrdom that their elite enjoyed, rather than any architectural expressions of a civic or religious ideal. If I’m right this pattern would be similar to the some-people-doing-something that so many other European shrines are mysteriously experiencing. It would also be consistent with either (1) torching Notre Dame and exulting mightily thereat, or (2) not torching Notre Dame but exulting mightily when a kafir’s carelessness brought it down.
gravenimage says
Muslims have also taken over a lot of other’s places of worship and turned them into Mosques,. Just look at Hagia Sophia.
CRUSADER says
Victor Davis Hanson has intelligent things to say in response to the idiocy of the modern French persona.
Carol the 1st says
It looks like the Rolling Stone has made a tryout “stab” at putting forward that some modern (perhaps interfaith?) type of thing be done. Victor Hanson is not impressed (2:30 to end):
Victor Davis Hanson talks lesson of Notre-Dame cathedral fire on Fox News (04–16–19)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT8zViW9bSk
CRUSADER says
Skepticism is a good thing, HAL.
Good on ya, mate !
Marlene Yvonne White says
Sure are a LOT of Million$$$$$ pouring into Paris right now for ‘rebuild’ of Notre Dame, which could easily be appropriated by the Macron govt!!
paul dimino says
even if muslims are guilty do you really think the french goverment would let that info get out to the public?12 churches in 1 week and they are not condemning the actions or looking very hard for the guilty,we know where there loyalties are.
somehistory says
moslims want “charred bodies” and more fires. And others who are anti-freedom of religion are happy to see the burning.
somehistory says
Mark Swan
Thank you!
infidel says
Sign of things to descend on Europe.
gravenimage says
It is by no means definitive, but it is notable that no Muslims have claimed responsibility for the destruction at Notre Dame. That doesn’t mean they are not gloating over it having happened, though.
CRUSADER says
Perhaps the Muzzie perps are really holding back, while silently celebrating amongst their co-conspirators,
in an effort to see how to go about further infiltrations and incursions.
Not every Jihadi / Salafist follows the wild pronouncements of Al-Qaeda and Islamic State….
Many of those within Muslim Brotherhood have been more in favor of gradual, incremental successes…
without spilling the beans on their agenda….